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Cleveland: Ohio City: INTRO (Market Square / Harbor Bay Development)

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3 hours ago, ogibbigo said:

Im pretty sure any Apartment consisting of Window Walls is going to experience the same when its ZERO degrees outside

 

3 hours ago, ogibbigo said:

Im pretty sure any Apartment consisting of Window Walls is going to experience the same when its ZERO degrees outside

I live in a condo on the southwest side of the building. I can’t get my condo past 63 degrees right now.  I have 270 degrees of floor to ceiling windows. Those large windows are meant to breath at extreme winds, otherwise, they would shatter. When you have near zero temperatures and -30 to 40 windchills, certain parts of the building are going to struggle to keep a comfortable temperature. The bigger issue is the wind chill. I happen to live on the corner of the building that gets hit with most of the direct wind. On the plus side, it’s too windy for insects so we don’t get any spiders or flies.

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  • Hi, long time follower first time post. I took some drone pictures of this project last Sunday (3/7). Finally able to figure out how to post pictures. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  • Add five or six more stories onto this early rendering of phase two of Harbor Bay Real Estate Advisors’ Market Square development, sources are saying.    Next Ohio City high-rise in the work

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^ we have single pane windows and no coverings, so yeah that don’t hold any heat. we r waiting on blinds2go — next month they say, so i am sympathetic lol.

  • 1 month later...
  • Author

Cross-posted from the Random Developments thread

 

Intro-phase-2-greatercle-dot-com-2R.jpg

 

City staffing shortage threatens some Cleveland projects

By Ken Prendergast / February 17, 2023

 

At the start of 2024, the city of Cleveland’s new tax abatement policy will go into effect. While the policy will remain basically unchanged for much of the city, it will become less supportive of developments in neighborhoods where construction has been most active — University Circle, Ohio City, Tremont and parts of downtown. So, in those areas, developers are trying to expedite the delivery of projects before the 15-year property tax abatement on new developments declines from 100 percent to 85 percent. But there’s something standing in the way of that acceleration: a lack of city staff to get projects approved in time.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/02/17/city-staffing-shortage-threatens-some-cleveland-projects/

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Cross-posted from the Random Developments thread

 

Intro-phase-2-greatercle-dot-com-2R.jpg

 

City staffing shortage threatens some Cleveland projects

By Ken Prendergast / February 17, 2023

 

At the start of 2024, the city of Cleveland’s new tax abatement policy will go into effect. While the policy will remain basically unchanged for much of the city, it will become less supportive of developments in neighborhoods where construction has been most active — University Circle, Ohio City, Tremont and parts of downtown. So, in those areas, developers are trying to expedite the delivery of projects before the 15-year property tax abatement on new developments declines from 100 percent to 85 percent. But there’s something standing in the way of that acceleration: a lack of city staff to get projects approved in time.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/02/17/city-staffing-shortage-threatens-some-cleveland-projects/

1000% YESSSSSSSS
 

“They should’ve increased the abatement for some of the more impoverished neighborhoods rather than reduce the abatement in places where it’s working,” 

Shocking that developers would suggest the city make more public subsidy available lol. 

Wouldn’t we normally have seen some renderings by the time plans are presented to the city for review and approval?  I’m just wondering how city hall is a bottleneck on Intro phase 2 if nothing has been formally presented.

  • Author
1 hour ago, JohnSummit said:

Wouldn’t we normally have seen some renderings by the time plans are presented to the city for review and approval?  I’m just wondering how city hall is a bottleneck on Intro phase 2 if nothing has been formally presented.

 

Plans are often shared with the city without them becoming public for many months. I follow the building department applications pretty closely and there's stuff on their web portal that was submitted six months ago or longer that hasn't been processed yet. And we're talking relatively simple stuff.

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

12 hours ago, bumsquare said:

Shocking that developers would suggest the city make more public subsidy available lol. 

I was thinking the exact same thing😄

I'm off work every day at 3:30, I'll take my ass down there and push some s*** through! Free labor and everything gets approved!! 😁

1 minute ago, GREGinPARMA said:

I'm off work every day at 3:30, I'll take my ass down there and push some s*** through! Free labor and everything gets approved!! 😁

 

lmao seriously. give me a part time job of approving some projects I'll be happy to do it!!

It would be great if the city could contract with an outside consultant, particularly an engineering firm, to review plans for them and provide assessment.  They could be the developers contact which I believe would be much more fluid for outside development teams working through the process.  The speed of the process going from paper to tax generation  would out-weigh the subconsultant fee.  And it would also remove the black eye that the city is for developers...because it really is.

2 hours ago, Jenny said:

It would be great if the city could contract with an outside consultant, particularly an engineering firm, to review plans for them and provide assessment.  They could be the developers contact which I believe would be much more fluid for outside development teams working through the process.  The speed of the process going from paper to tax generation  would out-weigh the subconsultant fee.  And it would also remove the black eye that the city is for developers...because it really is.

 

Does one of them employ a council member or key mayoral aide's spouse?   That's a requirement, correct?

15 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Does one of them employ a council member or key mayoral aide's spouse?   That's a requirement, correct?

Ughhhh, I would hope not.  I hope we have turned the corner in CLE from that.  But totally get your point.  I like my idea 😀,  UT of course it's an avenue for corruption.

1 minute ago, Jenny said:

Ughhhh, I would hope not.  I hope we have turned the corner in CLE from that.  But totally get your point.  I like my idea 😀,  UT of course it's an avenue for corruption.

 

I think it's a good idea too, but I haven't forgotten where a certain erstwhile councilman's wife worked.   I already thought him shady, but was amazed that they would be so open about it.

6 hours ago, Jenny said:

It would be great if the city could contract with an outside consultant, particularly an engineering firm, to review plans for them and provide assessment.  They could be the developers contact which I believe would be much more fluid for outside development teams working through the process.  The speed of the process going from paper to tax generation  would out-weigh the subconsultant fee.  And it would also remove the black eye that the city is for developers...because it really is.

I don't disagree.   But more things would also get done if city employees actually worked an honest 8 hour day.   Frank Jackson's apathy ended up spreading through the ranks.   

16 hours ago, Cleburger said:

I don't disagree.   But more things would also get done if city employees actually worked an honest 8 hour day.   Frank Jackson's apathy ended up spreading through the ranks.   

 

I don't see Bibb as a guy who is going to change that either.   It means telling entrenched power what they don't want to hear, and making it stick.

Changes are happening; several building inspectors within the last year have either retired or are actively looking to leave due to increased accountability coming from Sally Martin.  I know Sally personally and believe me- she's worth every penny she's being paid.   

 

This is part of the change that everyone wanted to see within the City.  It's not always pleasant and these types of things will happen; however, the City's headed in the right direction. 

On 11/9/2022 at 1:52 PM, YO to the CLE said:

Trust me, the term "luxury" only refers to upgraded amenities and higher end finishes. In a lower rent market like CLE, units are separated by minimum fire code requirements only. Anything extra is value-engineered out right away and added soundproofing is considered a big, costly extra. 

 

A little education goes a long way. Ohio Building Code requires an STC of 45 - 50 between units and corridors.

OBC 1207.2

STC 45 Loud speech not heard, music systems/heavy traffic noise still a potential problem

STC 50 Very loud sounds such as musical instruments or a stereo can be faintly heard

 

The difference is now people can reasonably afford a movie theater sound system in their home.

On 2/27/2023 at 1:22 PM, yanni_gogolak said:

 

A little education goes a long way. Ohio Building Code requires an STC of 45 - 50 between units and corridors.

OBC 1207.2

STC 45 Loud speech not heard, music systems/heavy traffic noise still a potential problem

STC 50 Very loud sounds such as musical instruments or a stereo can be faintly heard

 

The difference is now people can reasonably afford a movie theater sound system in their home.

TIL, although that is part of the building code what inspector is reasonably testing for that? The wikipedia page has some more information as well as typical STC of different wall assemblies:
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_transmission_class#Common_partition_STC

 

It states that you'd need a double layer of 1/2" drywall on both sides of the wall, wood studs, and batt insulation in the cavities to get an STC of 45, is that standard build practice in apartment dwellings? I'm reasonably certain that when I lived at the Edison it was only a single layer of 1/2" on each side without insulation. Those definitely felt to be "paper thin" like the wikipedia article claims a 33 is usually described as.

1 hour ago, dastler said:

TIL, although that is part of the building code what inspector is reasonably testing for that? The wikipedia page has some more information as well as typical STC of different wall assemblies:
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_transmission_class#Common_partition_STC

 

It states that you'd need a double layer of 1/2" drywall on both sides of the wall, wood studs, and batt insulation in the cavities to get an STC of 45, is that standard build practice in apartment dwellings? I'm reasonably certain that when I lived at the Edison it was only a single layer of 1/2" on each side without insulation. Those definitely felt to be "paper thin" like the wikipedia article claims a 33 is usually described as.

 

There are different assemblies that are already tested and are shown on the plans to show compliance.

The same as a fire rating. The inspector doesn't burn the wall to make sure it works.

On 3/1/2023 at 3:40 PM, dastler said:

TIL, although that is part of the building code what inspector is reasonably testing for that? The wikipedia page has some more information as well as typical STC of different wall assemblies:
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_transmission_class#Common_partition_STC

 

It states that you'd need a double layer of 1/2" drywall on both sides of the wall, wood studs, and batt insulation in the cavities to get an STC of 45, is that standard build practice in apartment dwellings? I'm reasonably certain that when I lived at the Edison it was only a single layer of 1/2" on each side without insulation. Those definitely felt to be "paper thin" like the wikipedia article claims a 33 is usually described as.

Here's the wall section for the typical unit demising walls at Welleon. See note at bottom of detail, that the wall is designed to minimum STC rating of 59 (note 60+ is considered completely soundproof). The key is the double-stud construction, creating the sound break in the air gap between the insulated walls, and separating the studs to prevent sound transmission through the materials. This construction detail is not standard practice in most infill multifamily projects.

spacer.png

 

  • 6 months later...
  • Author

Intro-leasing-floor-plan-CBRE-Fall-2023.

 

Seeds & Sprouts 33 – Sankofa Village Phase 4 coming, West 48th gets more townhomes, So might Midtown, Intro adding salon
By Ken Prendergast / October 5, 2023

 

Intro gains national beauty salon chain as tenant

 

Salon Lofts, a national beauty salon chain with a dozen locations in Northeast Ohio, will add its first spot in Cleveland when it opens soon at Intro in Ohio City’s Market District. Each location within the chain offers individual suites where professional hair stylists, massage therapists, skin care and nail specialists run their own unique beauty salons. Intro is a nine-story building at the southeast corner of Lorain Avenue and West 25th Street offering apartments over retail, restaurants and office space.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/10/05/seeds-sprouts-33-sankofa-village-phase-4-coming-west-48th-gets-more-townhomes-so-might-midtown-intro-adding-salon/

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

Intro question @KJPIn the past few months you have made it clear that the Intro developers have put on hold any Phase 2 plans due to the usual suspects:  high interest rates, increased construction costs and difficult financing environment.  In your most recent article -and maybe it is just me and the way I am interpreting your verbiage- it seems like you feel the prospects of any future phases, despite the success of phase 1, are completely dead and Intro Phase 1 is it, at least from this team.  Am I reading too much into what you said?

Edited by Htsguy

  • Author

Reading too much. Dan Whalen's most recent comments (July: https://neo-trans.blog/2023/07/21/tmud-round-3-starts-next-week/ ) about phase two was that it was on "a slight hold for a few months." While that was optimistic developer-speak, especially considering how fast things are changing in the lending market, that's the latest insight. I have no other intel or suspicions on the status of phase two.

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

4 minutes ago, KJP said:

Reading too much. Dan Whalen's most recent comments (July: https://neo-trans.blog/2023/07/21/tmud-round-3-starts-next-week/ ) about phase two was that it was on "a slight hold for a few months." While that was optimistic developer-speak, especially considering how fast things are changing in the lending market, that's the latest insight. I have no other intel or suspicions on the status of phase two.

Developer time vs real time

 

A few weeks = at least 3 months

A few months = at least 1 year

One year = probably never

15 minutes ago, KJP said:

Reading too much. Dan Whalen's most recent comments (July: https://neo-trans.blog/2023/07/21/tmud-round-3-starts-next-week/ ) about phase two was that it was on "a slight hold for a few months." While that was optimistic developer-speak, especially considering how fast things are changing in the lending market, that's the latest insight. I have no other intel or suspicions on the status of phase two.


Harbor Bay also closed on a property in Salt Lake City this past February. It could be their attention is elsewhere for the time being.

https://www.multihousingnews.com/harbor-bay-ventures-acquires-salt-lake-city-site/

  • 1 year later...

Now called “Intro Atlanta,” Buckhead Village project would be among tallest new timber-built structures in U.S.

 

Plans are coming into clearer focus for what’s envisioned as one of the tallest new towers pieced together from mass timber in the United States.

The Buckhead Village proposal by Harbor Bay Ventures, a real estate investment and development firm based in suburban Chicago, has been titled “Intro Atlanta,” according to the project’s engineering firm, Forefront Structural Engineers, also based in Chicago. 

 

https://atlanta.urbanize.city/post/buckhead-tower-development-progress-timber-built-clearer-focus-details

1 hour ago, yanni_gogolak said:

Now called “Intro Atlanta,” Buckhead Village project would be among tallest new timber-built structures in U.S.

 

Plans are coming into clearer focus for what’s envisioned as one of the tallest new towers pieced together from mass timber in the United States.

The Buckhead Village proposal by Harbor Bay Ventures, a real estate investment and development firm based in suburban Chicago, has been titled “Intro Atlanta,” according to the project’s engineering firm, Forefront Structural Engineers, also based in Chicago. 

 

https://atlanta.urbanize.city/post/buckhead-tower-development-progress-timber-built-clearer-focus-details

This feels like a joke someone on UO would’ve written

2 hours ago, yanni_gogolak said:

Now called “Intro Atlanta,” Buckhead Village project would be among tallest new timber-built structures in U.S.

 

Plans are coming into clearer focus for what’s envisioned as one of the tallest new towers pieced together from mass timber in the United States.

The Buckhead Village proposal by Harbor Bay Ventures, a real estate investment and development firm based in suburban Chicago, has been titled “Intro Atlanta,” according to the project’s engineering firm, Forefront Structural Engineers, also based in Chicago. 

 

https://atlanta.urbanize.city/post/buckhead-tower-development-progress-timber-built-clearer-focus-details


G-damnit. After that car crash, I knew it was only a matter of time.  Intro chose to relocate to Atlanta. John Boyd gets it right again.
 

🫡

16 hours ago, yanni_gogolak said:

Now called “Intro Atlanta,” Buckhead Village project would be among tallest new timber-built structures in U.S.

 

Plans are coming into clearer focus for what’s envisioned as one of the tallest new towers pieced together from mass timber in the United States.

The Buckhead Village proposal by Harbor Bay Ventures, a real estate investment and development firm based in suburban Chicago, has been titled “Intro Atlanta,” according to the project’s engineering firm, Forefront Structural Engineers, also based in Chicago. 

 

https://atlanta.urbanize.city/post/buckhead-tower-development-progress-timber-built-clearer-focus-details

 

>Concrete walls at stair cores and the elevator are designed to provide sufficient lateral support to keep it all standing

 

wew that's a relief 

  • 1 month later...
  • Author

Permit applications being submitted for SWTHZ at Intro, 2421 Lorain Ave. They're opening in cities nationwide. Found a link for them, announcing they're opening here

https://sweathouz.com/ohio-city-book-now/

 

 

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

  • 5 weeks later...
  • Author

Intro-Pioneer-Jaja-Aug2024Rs-1.jpg

 

Pioneer/Jaja restaurants at INTRO set repair plans

By Ken Prendergast / February 20, 2025

 

Just after 3 a.m. on Halloween 2024, an Audi crashed at high speed into a section of the INTRO mixed-use complex, at 2050 Gehring Ave. in Cleveland’s Ohio City neighborhood. While the driver wasn’t seriously hurt, the damage to the structure was so severe that two restaurants, Pioneer and Jaja, affected by the crash are still closed and repairs won’t be completed until 10 months after the initial impact.

 

MORE: 

https://neo-trans.blog/2025/02/20/pioneer-jaja-restaurants-at-intro-set-repair-plans/

 

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

2 hours ago, KJP said:

Intro-Pioneer-Jaja-Aug2024Rs-1.jpg

 

Pioneer/Jaja restaurants at INTRO set repair plans

By Ken Prendergast / February 20, 2025

 

Just after 3 a.m. on Halloween 2024, an Audi crashed at high speed into a section of the INTRO mixed-use complex, at 2050 Gehring Ave. in Cleveland’s Ohio City neighborhood. While the driver wasn’t seriously hurt, the damage to the structure was so severe that two restaurants, Pioneer and Jaja, affected by the crash are still closed and repairs won’t be completed until 10 months after the initial impact.

 

MORE: 

https://neo-trans.blog/2025/02/20/pioneer-jaja-restaurants-at-intro-set-repair-plans/

 

Are the bollards are too far apart or did the car run over them?

^ from the pictures I saw at the time; yes and yes

My hovercraft is full of eels

I hope they do something about that unmarked ledge in front while they're at it. I have vision impairment and nearly took a header from it. the concrete blends together, especially on a sunny day, and it's difficult to see there's a step when you're walking south. saw an elderly woman do the same thing not not after.

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