June 13, 20196 yr 1 hour ago, Clefan98 said: ^ You're greatly underestimating the demand for condos downtown. The Cleveland market can easily support the addition of many hundreds of condos over the next 2-5yrs. Geis is probably going to build somewhere in the range of 35-55 units (best guess). Maybe, maybe not. The "new construction" market for condos in downtown is harder than you think. Parking is a factor. I don't think you'll get a building of empty-nesters to give up their cars as easily as you can young professional/apartment dwellers. So acquiring or building adjacent or attached parking is a big issue. Construction costs are a factor. Developers are competing with the condo/townhome market in Ohio City/Detroit Shoreway. Those are wood-framed 3-story structures. Much cheaper to construct than concrete & steel. The pre-sale is a big hurdle as well. Town home buildings that are 6-10 units can start when half are pre-sold typically. Much harder to do with a building that is 40-50 units. I"m trying to think what the last 'new-construction' building in downtown for residential for-sale condos actually was. It's probably been at least 10 years though so I'm sure there's untapped demand but never the less it's still a hurdle.
June 13, 20196 yr 5 minutes ago, gottaplan said: Maybe, maybe not. The "new construction" market for condos in downtown is harder than you think. Parking is a factor. I don't think you'll get a building of empty-nesters to give up their cars as easily as you can young professional/apartment dwellers. So acquiring or building adjacent or attached parking is a big issue. Construction costs are a factor. Developers are competing with the condo/townhome market in Ohio City/Detroit Shoreway. Those are wood-framed 3-story structures. Much cheaper to construct than concrete & steel. The pre-sale is a big hurdle as well. Town home buildings that are 6-10 units can start when half are pre-sold typically. Much harder to do with a building that is 40-50 units. I"m trying to think what the last 'new-construction' building in downtown for residential for-sale condos actually was. It's probably been at least 10 years though so I'm sure there's untapped demand but never the less it's still a hurdle. I think it was The Avenue District condos. I believe those have been converted to rental.
June 13, 20196 yr 15 hours ago, jjames0408 said: So I guess based on most of these posts I'm confused....every single one of our peer cities has a market for condo towers except for us? Maybe I'm the exception, but I'm 34, paid off my student loans and own two houses. Why wouldn't I be part of the target market? I think the reason our condo market sucks so badly is that there are the same 800+- options that there have been for the last 20 years. It's time for newer options. I also question this, I have no clue why Cleveland has struggled so much to kick things up in the condo market. I've seen CBUS, CIN, and INDY each throw up multiple condo highrises and midrises over the past few years and they all are all selling almost instantly. CLE is killing it in downtown apartments but I cant figure out why condos have been so elusive. I imagine apartments offer a higher ROI, but having purchasable properties for people invest in an area is a keep part for long term stability for an area like downtown. Edited June 13, 20196 yr by DevolsDance
June 13, 20196 yr I'm sure there a ton of overlapping factors - high construction costs, low('ish) salaries, recession fears, the Avenue District's "failure" being a warning sign, few tax credits, non-warrantable units, the usual negative perceptions somewhat unique to Cleveland - but my hunch is the relatively small downtown workforce population (95,000 and dropping) is the most concerning for financiers and developers. Edited June 13, 20196 yr by TBideon
June 13, 20196 yr 15 minutes ago, TBideon said: I'm sure there a ton of overlapping factors - high construction costs, low('ish) salaries, recession fears, the Avenue District's "failure" being a warning sign, few tax credits, non-warrantable units, the usual negative perceptions somewhat unique to Cleveland - but my hunch is the relatively small downtown workforce population (95,000 and dropping) is the most concerning for financiers and developers. That's by far the largest downtown in the state and has also been increasing by roughly 1,000 people a year for the past five years. So I don't know about that. I looked at Downtown Cleveland Alliances Annual report. I always check them because though im unsure what boundaries are atleast we can get a steady data set. Downtown appears to have 105k jobs. I am sure they are including everything within the boundaries of I90. But if you read old reports from the past few years that number was below 100k. Edited June 13, 20196 yr by KFM44107 More information
June 13, 20196 yr The Avenue got sued for construction deficiencies making them not fit for condo's, correct?
June 13, 20196 yr 6 minutes ago, Mildtraumatic said: The Avenue got sued for construction deficiencies making them not fit for condo's, correct? I thought they had financial issues and were completed around the economic downturn. They were sued by the construction company?
June 13, 20196 yr Just now, imjustinjk said: I thought they had financial issues and were completed around the economic downturn. They were sued by the construction company? Yeah, I thought The Avenue's issues were rooted in the mortgage-financial collapse 10+ years ago. Since then, new condo construction hasn't been what it was in many cities. I know the Stonebridge Development in FWB had construction related litigation and caught up in the financial downturn as well, but its timing was better than The Avenue.
June 13, 20196 yr 16 hours ago, jjames0408 said: So I guess based on most of these posts I'm confused....every single one of our peer cities has a market for condo towers except for us? Maybe I'm the exception, but I'm 34, paid off my student loans and own two houses. Why wouldn't I be part of the target market? I think the reason our condo market sucks so badly is that there are the same 800+- options that there have been for the last 20 years. It's time for newer options. What is the downtown condo tower market like in CIN and COL? What is the count in both downtowns? Which CLE peer cities are seeing a market for new construction downtown towers? Edited June 13, 20196 yr by Oxford19
June 13, 20196 yr 3 hours ago, TBideon said: I'm sure there a ton of overlapping factors - high construction costs, low('ish) salaries, recession fears, the Avenue District's "failure" being a warning sign, few tax credits, non-warrantable units, the usual negative perceptions somewhat unique to Cleveland - but my hunch is the relatively small downtown workforce population (95,000 and dropping) is the most concerning for financiers and developers. Well, The Avenue issue is old now, that's pre-crash and pretty much all new condo construction was on-hold for a while everywhere. What is ''non-warrantable units'' about? Also, downtown CLE is growing in its workforce and residential population #s. So even if CLE were losing downtown employment #s, the residential boom offsets it. However, as stated, CLE is seeing both employment and residential population increases. Downtown CLE has 105,000 workers and combined with the increasing connectivity to its east, University Circle, you have an employment base of about 175,000. Which CLE peer cities are seeing booming downtown new construction condos? Edited June 13, 20196 yr by Oxford19
June 13, 20196 yr 22 minutes ago, Oxford19 said: What is the downtown condo tower market like in CIN and COL? What is the count in both downtowns? Doing a little bit of digging into each cities 2018 State of Downtown Reports the numbers are as follows Cleveland Condo Units Existing - 880 Condo Units Under Construction - 12 Avg. Sale Price - $206,000 Columbus Condo Units Existing - 1,484 Condo Units Under Construction - 103 Avg. Sale Price - $387,000 Cincinnati Condo Units Existing - 1,002 Condo Units Under Construction - 48 Avg. Sale Price - $355,000
June 13, 20196 yr I am unsure if someone from Cincy and Columbus is on this thread that can correct me but I believe they are having great success in the condo market area because those cities aren't afraid to build shorter low to mid rise structures of condo units (even wood framed). That was my impression when I walked through downtown Columbus last time I was there (barring the twenty story condos on the river). In Cleveland, it seems to be high rise or bust, which might be a symptom of the value and location of our vacant lots in the downtown area. Good for those cities though. I think Cleveland has a lot of potential for that type of development in the Superior Arts District, it would mirror the old industrial building conversions in that area.
June 13, 20196 yr 14 minutes ago, KFM44107 said: I am unsure if someone from Cincy and Columbus is on this thread that can correct me but I believe they are having great success in the condo market area because those cities aren't afraid to build shorter low to mid rise structures of condo units (even wood framed). That was my impression when I walked through downtown Columbus last time I was there (barring the twenty story condos on the river). In Cleveland, it seems to be high rise or bust, which might be a symptom of the value and location of our vacant lots in the downtown area. Good for those cities though. I think Cleveland has a lot of potential for that type of development in the Superior Arts District, it would mirror the old industrial building conversions in that area. So, looking at the past few years, Cincinnati has successfully flipped a lot of older/historic structures into for sale units, additionally they are currently building a larger 13 story mixed use building that will have both for sale and rental units available. Columbus has had a lot of success with their Neighborhood Launch development which is made up of "Brownstone" like for sale units and the recent completion of twin 12 story buildings containing about 155 for sale units. Now, I'm sure I'm missing things but this gives more of a picture of the happenings in those cities. Cleveland does historically have higher land values in its downtown which could be part of the problem, but with the current boom downtown it's surprising that so little is happening condo wise. Hopefully this project can kick things up a bit, lead by example?
June 13, 20196 yr 44 minutes ago, DevolsDance said: So, looking at the past few years, Cincinnati has successfully flipped a lot of older/historic structures into for sale units, additionally they are currently building a larger 13 story mixed use building that will have both for sale and rental units available. Columbus has had a lot of success with their Neighborhood Launch development which is made up of "Brownstone" like for sale units and the recent completion of twin 12 story buildings containing about 155 for sale units. Now, I'm sure I'm missing things but this gives more of a picture of the happenings in those cities. Cleveland does historically have higher land values in its downtown which could be part of the problem, but with the current boom downtown it's surprising that so little is happening condo wise. Hopefully this project can kick things up a bit, lead by example? With CIN though it includes what is called “Greater Downtown”, taking in ORT and Pendleton., so those numbers for whatever is actually “downtown” CIN are skewed. As for Columbus, it’s odd then that its “downtown” is still pining for a grocery store. With CLE nucleus project coming on board hopefully and now a potential Geis condo tower on e 9th CLE should be getting on par with its peer OH cities at least. For that matter, what is the rental tower in CIN and COL actual core? Are there Beacon or Lumen type buildings going up? according to the CLE report, avg downtown sales price was $248,000 and CLE downtown population is 17,500, not including, obviously the large housing projects cureently under construction or planned. i did ask though about the new condo tower market claimed to be in existence in these cities. Edited June 13, 20196 yr by Oxford19
June 13, 20196 yr 15 minutes ago, DevolsDance said: So, looking at the past few years, Cincinnati has successfully flipped a lot of older/historic structures into for sale units, additionally they are currently building a larger 13 story mixed use building that will have both for sale and rental units available. Columbus has had a lot of success with their Neighborhood Launch development which is made up of "Brownstone" like for sale units and the recent completion of twin 12 story buildings containing about 155 for sale units. Now, I'm sure I'm missing things but this gives more of a picture of the happenings in those cities. Cleveland does historically have higher land values in its downtown which could be part of the problem, but with the current boom downtown it's surprising that so little is happening condo wise. Hopefully this project can kick things up a bit, lead by example? 47 minutes ago, DevolsDance said: Doing a little bit of digging into each cities 2018 State of Downtown Reports the numbers are as follows Cleveland Condo Units Existing - 880 Condo Units Under Construction - 12 Avg. Sale Price - $206,000 Columbus Condo Units Existing - 1,484 Condo Units Under Construction - 103 Avg. Sale Price - $387,000 Cincinnati Condo Units Existing - 1,002 Condo Units Under Construction - 48 Avg. Sale Price - $355,000 I wonder if it makes more sense to compare Cleveland with other Great Lakes cites of similar size instead, like Detroit, Buffalo, Milwaukie. For obvious reasons Chicago and Toronto are in a class of their own with their booming condo market for international investors. As far as midwestern cities they can hold their own with any of the elite coastal cities of either the west or east coast.
June 13, 20196 yr 8 minutes ago, Oxford19 said: With CIN though it includes what is called “Greater Downtown”, taking in ORT and Pendleton., so those numbers for whatever is actually “downtown” CIN are skewed. As for Columbus, it’s odd then that its “downtown” is still pining for a grocery store. With CLE nucleus project coming on board hopefully and now a potential Geis condo tower on e 9th CLE should be getting on par with its peer OH cities at least. i did ask though about the new condo tower market claimed to be in existence in these cities. So for Cincinnati, those are strictly CBD numbers, not the whole basin (CBD, OTR, Pendleton). I imagine if OTR was included then Cincinnati's numbers would skyrocket much like Columbus' if the Short North were included. I'm not sure anyone understands the grocery store situation in COL. Getting back on topic, the tower market is a bit more elusive than downtown condos in general, but yes, both cities have tower units either recently completed or under construction. Columbus completed 155 new tower condo units in 2017-18, while Cincinnati is set to complete around 50 in 2020. If the GEIS project pans out as teased above it would be the tallest condo project in Ohio since 2008.
June 13, 20196 yr 21 minutes ago, shack said: I wonder if it makes more sense to compare Cleveland with other Great Lakes cites of similar size instead, like Detroit, Buffalo, Milwaukie. For obvious reasons Chicago and Toronto are in a class of their own with their booming condo market for international investors. As far as midwestern cities they can hold their own with any of the elite coastal cities of either the west or east coast. For starters, the actual differences aren’t huge between these OH cities, pricing difference between Cleveland and Cincinnati includes CIN neighborhoods of ORT and Pendleton, part of Greater Downtown CIN.
June 13, 20196 yr 9 minutes ago, DevolsDance said: So for Cincinnati, those are strictly CBD numbers, not the whole basin (CBD, OTR, Pendleton). I imagine if OTR was included then Cincinnati's numbers would skyrocket much like Columbus' if the Short North were included. I'm not sure anyone understands the grocery store situation in COL. Getting back on topic, the tower market is a bit more elusive than downtown condos in general, but yes, both cities have tower units either recently completed or under construction. Columbus completed 155 new tower condo units in 2017-18, while Cincinnati is set to complete around 50 in 2020. If the GEIS project pans out as teased above it would be the tallest condo project in Ohio since 2008. Not according to the report you referenced for CIN. What then does Greater Downtown CIN refer to? its odd that the rental millennial tower can’t get moving while the condo market is so high in COL. I was reading about the need for a grocery store in downtown COL. A bit surprised about that being an issue with such a robust condo market. Edited June 13, 20196 yr by Oxford19
June 13, 20196 yr 2 minutes ago, Oxford19 said: Not according to the report you referenced for CIN. Just went back and checked, you're right, it does include OTR and Pendleton. So yes, CIN numbers are the the basin numbers, COL numbers reference the area defined by the inner-belt freeways. Kind of confusing now looking back, my apologies.
June 13, 20196 yr 7 minutes ago, Oxford19 said: Not according to the report you referenced for CIN. What then does Greater Downtown CIN refer to? its odd that the rental millennial tower can’t get moving while the condo market is so high in COL. I was reading about the need for a grocery store in downtown COL. A bit surprised about that being an issue with such a robust condo market. The condo market could be robust, but if robust means 3,000 owner occupants and 3,000 renters downtown then the numbers don't justify a supermarket. Cleveland has one because Heinen's took a gamble and downtown Cleveland had a downtown worker population double that of Columbus, as well as a downtown residential population double that of Columbus. Their gamble was that the downtown workers would buoy their numbers while the downtown population grew. I believe they have been in the black close to right off the bat, mostly from alcohol sales and carryout items. You really need 20-25k downtown to justify those sort of things (or a large downtown workforce).
June 13, 20196 yr 2 hours ago, DevolsDance said: Just went back and checked, you're right, it does include OTR and Pendleton. So yes, CIN numbers are the the basin numbers, COL numbers reference the area defined by the inner-belt freeways. Kind of confusing now looking back, my apologies. CIN counts zip code 45202 as its downtown population of 17,400...look at that zip code area configuration-boundaries, meaning it also includes mt Adams...so all these figures about CIN are not reliable and I suspect COL numbers aren’t as rosy as stated for its downtown new construction condo market. CLE: 17,500 COL: 9,000 CIN: ? Given CLE Downtown core growth, its condo market is bound to increase. Edited June 13, 20196 yr by Oxford19
June 13, 20196 yr Just now, KFM44107 said: The condo market could be robust, but if robust means 3,000 owner occupants and 3,000 renters downtown then the numbers don't justify a supermarket. Cleveland has one because Heinen's took a gamble and downtown Cleveland had a downtown worker population double that of Columbus, as well as a downtown residential population double that of Columbus. Their gamble was that the downtown workers would buoy their numbers while the downtown population grew. I believe they have been in the black close to right off the bat, mostly from alcohol sales and carryout items. You really need 20-25k downtown to justify those sort of things (or a large downtown workforce). Right, which is why Heinen’s made the right bet getting in earlier. Downtown CLE has 17,500 population with lots and lots of new units coming on line soon and many more planned, including for sale condos. And yes heinens in the black since the get-go, no cutting hours or closed on sundays type of issues either....open until 9 pm 7 days a week says a lot about where downtown CLE is and its future...including the 1 block south Geis condos and the 100s of units across the street at 925 Euclid coming in soon. actually, in addition to geis tower and nucleus, there is talk of for sale units in 925 Euclid conversion (the massive 1.2 million sf space with the largest banking lobby in the world with the rooftop zeppelin waiting room) . All directly in CLE’s densifying core. Edited June 13, 20196 yr by Oxford19
June 13, 20196 yr 47 minutes ago, Oxford19 said: CIN counts zip code 45202 as its downtown population of 17,400...look at that zip code area configuration-boundaries. CLE: 17,500 COL: 9,000 CIN: ? Given CLE Downtown core growth, its condo market is bound to increase. Not sure that's true. The DCI State of Downtown reports show a map that includes the CBD, and most of OTR and Pendleton for the downtown area. Mt. Adams is included in the 45202 zip code, and I'm pretty sure its numbers aren't included in those downtown figures. If it was, there would be much more in the way of for sale housing, and the average price would also be substantially higher.
June 13, 20196 yr Theres 5 active projects on Euclid alone, 3 renos and 2 new. 2 of those are nearing the finish line. These 5 will bring 1200ish new units that should push our population close 20,000 hypothetically if they were at capacity. This isn’t including 925 and the potential hippodrome site/cityclub apartments. Then there’s other projects through downtown (nucleus, feb, smaller projects, etc). Plus 100,000+ daytime employees which are growing. There’s supposedly a demand for nearly 7,000 new residential units by 2030. Condos really make sense. It’s time for some condos. Hopefully this geis project, and knezs smaller townhome development will be a catalyst to more for-sale units. Report shows demand for 6,800 more homes in downtown Cleveland by 2030 Also hopefully the 2020 census will yield good news for the city and downtown.
June 13, 20196 yr ummmm, so how bout that geis condo tower?? ha not to be a downer, but shouldn't this convo migrate to somewhere else? I keep checking this for updates and am (interested in what y'all are discussing) BUT disappointed that there's no updates on the tower...
June 13, 20196 yr 2 hours ago, DevolsDance said: Doing a little bit of digging into each cities 2018 State of Downtown Reports the numbers are as follows Cleveland Condo Units Existing - 880 Condo Units Under Construction - 12 Avg. Sale Price - $206,000 Columbus Condo Units Existing - 1,484 Condo Units Under Construction - 103 Avg. Sale Price - $387,000 Cincinnati Condo Units Existing - 1,002 Condo Units Under Construction - 48 Avg. Sale Price - $355,000 That's really great info, thanks for digging. I'd be curious also, for Columbus which is a red hot market, how many of those condo units are rented/not owner occupied. Effectively acting as a rental but also as investment for the owner.... We're not there yet in Cleveland, where you could buy a condo on spec and actually make money
June 13, 20196 yr 20 hours ago, edale said: Not sure that's true. The DCI State of Downtown reports show a map that includes the CBD, and most of OTR and Pendleton for the downtown area. Mt. Adams is included in the 45202 zip code, and I'm pretty sure its numbers aren't included in those downtown figures. If it was, there would be much more in the way of for sale housing, and the average price would also be substantially higher. Only stated what I read....what is downtown CIN, not including OTR and Pendleton? DCI State of Downtown CIN condos etc includes OTR and Pendleton and uses its population as all of 45202, including Mt Adams. TBH, doesn't sound like they're playing fair. Edited June 14, 20196 yr by Oxford19
June 13, 20196 yr Just now, GISguy said: ummmm, so how bout that geis condo tower?? ha not to be a downer, but shouldn't this convo migrate to somewhere else? I keep checking this for updates and am (interested in what y'all are discussing) BUT disappointed that there's no updates on the tower... The convo is discussing the viability of downtown CLE condo market with comparisons being made to CIN and COL downtown new condo tower discussion...but, in CLE, the official announcement of a geis condo tower hasn't even occurred yet...no updates until an announcement. The discussion also points to an inevitable downtown CLE condo market given its growing popularity generally and residential population growth specifically. Edited June 13, 20196 yr by Oxford19
June 13, 20196 yr 1 minute ago, Oxford19 said: The convo is discussing the viability of downtown CLE condo with comparisons being made to CIN and COL downtown new condo tower discussion...but, in CLE, the official announcement of a geis condo tower hansn't even occurred yet. I've read through the comments, but y'all are commenting on a specific project thread. I'm sure there's other places on this forum that would merit a CIN/COL/CLE condo viability discussion. Despite it not being formally 'announced' this is still for that specific project to which @KJP said an announcement should be forthcoming relatively soon. Maybe I'm overreacting but there's like two pages of this discussion in a project specific thread.
June 13, 20196 yr Just now, GISguy said: I've read through the comments, but y'all are commenting on a specific project thread. I'm sure there's other places on this forum that would merit a CIN/COL/CLE condo viability discussion. Despite it not being formally 'announced' this is still for that specific project to which @KJP said an announcement should be forthcoming relatively soon. Maybe I'm overreacting but there's like two pages of this discussion in a project specific thread. Since the Geis condo isn't a specific project yet, once announced and construction is actually underway will be the time not to discuss if Cleveland even has a downtown condo market. The rumor of a Geis condo here has been around so it's not exactly a new ''speculation'' topic. Just because the soil tests drills were there doesn't mean this is happening. I noticed soil drilling on the Weston lots months before the yet to happen mixed use project was announced. That said, Geis owns the 9 etc and this project will only enhance its value, so I am confident there will be an announcement...sooner the better. Folks were pointing out how far ahead CIN and COL are with their new construction downtown condo markets; I pointed out that it's really not the case. I'm thinking a Geis project won't have avg sales prices of $248K. Edited June 13, 20196 yr by Oxford19
June 14, 20196 yr Author 3 hours ago, imjustinjk said: @KJP needs to release that article tho ? Yes, I would love to. But the last thing I want to do is burn a source. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 15, 20196 yr Here's what a potential 17-20 story condo building could look like in the space provided. This is the North Bank Condo tower in Columbus. Edited June 15, 20196 yr by ASPhotoman
June 15, 20195 yr ^ That would be awesome but prefer the condo high rise they have on the south side of downtown which can be seen easily from I -70 but at the sametime it is fat and trying to stay away from fat buildings. I don't know the name of it. Great photoshop. On 6/13/2019 at 12:56 PM, imjustinjk said: I thought they had financial issues and were completed around the economic downturn. They were sued by the construction company? On 6/13/2019 at 1:18 PM, Oxford19 said: Yeah, I thought The Avenue's issues were rooted in the mortgage-financial collapse 10+ years ago. Since then, new condo construction hasn't been what it was in many cities. I know the Stonebridge Development in FWB had construction related litigation and caught up in the financial downturn as well, but its timing was better than The Avenue. ^Must of got confused with Stonebridge but thought that construction did not meet up with condo standards related to The Avenue high rise.. I thought both had problems construction related now thinking about it. On 6/13/2019 at 2:15 PM, DevolsDance said: Doing a little bit of digging into each cities 2018 State of Downtown Reports the numbers are as follows Cleveland Condo Units Existing - 880 Condo Units Under Construction - 12 Avg. Sale Price - $206,000 Columbus Condo Units Existing - 1,484 Condo Units Under Construction - 103 Avg. Sale Price - $387,000 Cincinnati Condo Units Existing - 1,002 Condo Units Under Construction - 48 Avg. Sale Price - $355,000 On 6/13/2019 at 3:06 PM, Oxford19 said: according to the CLE report, avg downtown sales price was $248,000 and CLE downtown population is 17,500, not including, obviously the large housing projects cureently under construction or planned. Reading these post pretty sure Cleveland can afford a 20-30 story condominium at Gies location. Compare the numbers living downtown with those that rent and those that own. Then compare between the 3C's. It's well overdue for Cleveland to put Condo's in the mix by the sheer numbers of downtown rentals alone. Very disproportionate the rental numbers compared to ownership. I just think Clevelander's are starting to think of past failures and don't want to see any of that and ruin all the positive momentum going on. Insecurities. Fear of failure. Didn't know Cleveland's downtown pop. made it 17.500 already which is the largest downtown pop. in the state but has the less home ownership. Great news on 17.500! Might be able to reach 20,000 pop. with condo's alone now! Just wish we could attract more workers downtown. Sorry for the roughness of my grammar. Having a difficult time today with concentration. Edited June 15, 20195 yr by Mildtraumatic
June 15, 20195 yr Author Well done!! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 15, 20195 yr 2 hours ago, Mildtraumatic said: ^ That would be awesome but prefer the condo high rise they have on the south side of downtown which can be seen easily from I -70 but at the sametime it is fat and trying to stay away from fat buildings. I don't know the name of it. Great photoshop. ^Must of got confused with Stonebridge but thought that construction did not meet up with condo standards related to The Avenue high rise.. I thought both had problems construction related now thinking about it. Reading these post pretty sure Cleveland can afford a 20-30 story condominium at Gies location. Compare the numbers living downtown with those that rent and those that own. Then compare between the 3C's. It's well overdue for Cleveland to put Condo's in the mix by the sheer numbers of downtown rentals alone. Very disproportionate the rental numbers compared to ownership. I just think Clevelander's are starting to think of past failures and don't want to see any of that and ruin all the positive momentum going on. Insecurities. Fear of failure. Didn't know Cleveland's downtown pop. made it 17.500 already which is the largest downtown pop. in the state but has the less home ownership. Great news on 17.500! Might be able to reach 20,000 pop. with condo's alone now! Just wish we could attract more workers downtown. Sorry for the roughness of my grammar. Having a difficult time today with concentration. The problem, if you read the thread, is that the other Cs “downtown” figures aren’t accurate. CIN’s #s are misleading as it covers downtown, OTR, Pendleton, and Mt Adams. So a true picture of downtown CIN remains unknown but CIN claims 17,000+ downtown while the residential #s here include Greater Downtown, which in CIN includes distant Mt. Adams...lol. Looks like we need to look closely at CIN published #s going forward and call it “CIN puffery”. Looks the same for “downtown” Columbus. the Geis location is excellent and the taller the better. More floors = more $$. Edited June 15, 20195 yr by Oxford19
June 15, 20195 yr ^Does it really matter? I mean I'd agree that Mt Adams isn't part of "downtown" Cincinnati, but who cares about the rest? The dynamics of Cincinnati's basin and downtown Cleveland are very different. “To an Ohio resident - wherever he lives - some other part of his state seems unreal.”
June 15, 20195 yr Yes Cincinnati really Isn't fair comparison for this purpose. Isn't Nati's real downtown-where the tall buildings are mostly a business district? Not my money so it's easy to say put a 30 story up. 20 story I feel would be safe and a nice test for a untested downtown condo market. Stonebridge are condo's right? How are they doing? Edit Well put dipper. Very different. Just trying to get a feel for how many units can go up. Cleveland real downtown hasn't had a condo tower go up for years unless you count stonebridge which makes me wonder on vacancy there. Geis will have a much better location than Stonebridge. Edited June 15, 20195 yr by Mildtraumatic
June 15, 20195 yr 24 minutes ago, Mildtraumatic said: Yes Cincinnati really Isn't fair comparison for this purpose. Isn't Nati's real downtown-where the tall buildings are mostly a business district? Not my money so it's easy to say put a 30 story up. 20 story I feel would be safe and a nice test for a untested downtown condo market. Stonebridge are condo's right? How are they doing? Edit Well put dipper. Very different. Just trying to get a feel for how many units can go up. Cleveland real downtown hasn't had a condo tower go up for years unless you count stonebridge which makes me wonder on vacancy there. Geis will have a much better location than Stonebridge. I’d be more curious about the Pinnacle than Stonebridge. But from what I know Pinnacle does quite well with penthouses fetching well into 7 figures.
June 15, 20195 yr I forgot about Pinnacle. If Geis was going min 350,000 I think it would fill 20 stories quickly at that location. Clueless of feasibility on pricing. ASPhotoman I like the second building in first post from Columbus. Not sure why. Last post looks too much like Ernst and Young building which I'm not a fan of. Well The first post not sure if they are same building and lighting has something to do with it but second pic nice has nice look. Edited June 15, 20195 yr by Mildtraumatic
June 15, 20195 yr 1 hour ago, BigDipper 80 said: ^Does it really matter? I mean I'd agree that Mt Adams isn't part of "downtown" Cincinnati, but who cares about the rest? The dynamics of Cincinnati's basin and downtown Cleveland are very different. Only matters when, as here, CIN and COL misleading “downtown” #s were used to argue that downtown CLE is so far behind by comparison with its downtown condo market. The CIN “basin” and downtown CLE are very different, that’s why they shouldn’t be compared. Edited June 15, 20195 yr by Oxford19
June 15, 20195 yr Quote from gottaplan: Quote I am probably wrong but I just don't see the market for this yet. Condo's are different from apartments in that you have to have enough money for a down payment which wipes out a lot of young professionals who are currently apartment dwellers. Even cheap condos at $200k require a $40k down payment. Even also assuming the down payment is paid for by parents or whatever, part of the attraction of renting is the freedom to leave after a year or whatever. Not so with a condo. So playing these two out, you're back to single middle age professionals and married couples who have no kids. Who want to live downtown. Not Ohio City or Detroit Shoreway - downtown. We'll see On 6/12/2019 at 4:14 PM, Htsguy said: I am pretty sure @Pugu adamantly disagrees with you and is going to challenge you to a manly arm wrestling match. ? Thanks Htsguy! Gottaplan---There are 3m people in Cleveland---1.2M if you only count Cuyahoga county. OF COURSE there are at least a few thousand people who would love to live in a condo downtown. There are plenty of younger people with $40-50k in savings for housing. People able and/or wise enough to have that much cash in their 20s and 30s, are likely not the same people that will spend $36k/yr in rent so the the option to live downtown isn't there. With condos it is. Also, and I hope, owners can do what they want with their property as owners and some restrictive 'condo association' doesn't run the place that doesn't allow any renting. Assuming owners can rent, when young people want to move out to another city or the suburbs, they could keep the asset and rent it out. No need to sell and it would rent easier than a $400k house in the suburbs. Plus as others have mentioned 'empty nesters'---why should they want to throw away $36k a year in rent? Clearly many do. But many do not. Condos give them the option to downsize from bigger homes and live downtown without throwing away the money in rent. Bottom line----there is a giant demand for condos downtown---far more than one building will meet. Edited June 15, 20195 yr by Pugu
June 15, 20195 yr Analysis of the core samples will determine what kind of foundation is needed (2 weeks). The prorated cost of the above will determine the cost of the condos. If that number aligns with their marketing study this project will happen.
June 15, 20195 yr Author I was a little surprised they had a rendering prior to conducting their geotechnical sampling and analysis. But when I heard the per-square-foot costs of this building, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Geis needed a rendering anyway as part of their marketing materials to financiers, which is why they drafted one before doing the geotech. I think when you see the price of these condos, the cost of the building would have to be nearly triple the per-square-foot costs of The Lumen in order for Geis to call it off. Most of you hoping to buy a condo downtown with the delivery of this building are probably going to be disappointed. I think only @MyTwoSense is going to be able to afford it. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 16, 20195 yr 19 hours ago, KJP said: I was a little surprised they had a rendering prior to conducting their geotechnical sampling and analysis. But when I heard the per-square-foot costs of this building, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Geis needed a rendering anyway as part of their marketing materials to financiers, which is why they drafted one before doing the geotech. I think when you see the price of these condos, the cost of the building would have to be nearly triple the per-square-foot costs of The Lumen in order for Geis to call it off. Most of you hoping to buy a condo downtown with the delivery of this building are probably going to be disappointed. I think only @MyTwoSense is going to be able to afford it. Good! It will keep the riff-raff out! I would love to own a condo in Downtown Cleveland. Shaker Sq. isn't far away, but sometimes I would love to walk over to my crib and just crash after a night off. I'm envious of my cousins who live in The Flats. Last year I was thinking of buying a unit in Dallas, and after looking at some of the units around the park I was sort of envious. Downtown Dallas is horrible, but they have quite a few rental buildings, from market to upscale and nice condos in the Victory Park, uptown and Museam areas. Ironically, hardly anyone works downtown. It's very weird. I think a 2 or 3, 17-25 story condo building in downtown will have a tremendous affect on the region. Not just downtown and it's adjacent/adjoining neighborhoods, but the entire region.I would love to see buildings, Superior, Payne, Chester and Carneige.
June 16, 20195 yr 17 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said: Good! It will keep the riff-raff out! I would love to own a condo in Downtown Cleveland. Shaker Sq. isn't far away, but sometimes I would love to walk over to my crib and just crash after a night off. I'm envious of my cousins who live in The Flats. Last year I was thinking of buying a unit in Dallas, and after looking at some of the units around the park I was sort of envious. Downtown Dallas is horrible, but they have quite a few rental buildings, from market to upscale and nice condos in the Victory Park, uptown and Museam areas. Ironically, hardly anyone works downtown. It's very weird. I think a 2 or 3, 17-25 story condo building in downtown will have a tremendous affect on the region. Not just downtown and it's adjacent/adjoining neighborhoods, but the entire region.I would love to see buildings, Superior, Payne, Chester and Carneige. The suburbs have to compete with downtown by creating their own "mini-downtowns" in their neighborhood like Pincrest and van Aiken. So ya its its good for the entire region.
June 16, 20195 yr 2 minutes ago, shack said: The suburbs have to compete with downtown by creating their own "mini-downtowns" in their neighborhood like Pincrest and van Aiken. So ya its its good for the entire region.
June 19, 20195 yr On 6/15/2019 at 1:50 PM, Sapper Daddy said: I’d be more curious about the Pinnacle than Stonebridge. But from what I know Pinnacle does quite well with penthouses fetching well into 7 figures. that's interesting. I'd heard the opposite. Those penthouses are a boondoggle. People who own them cannot sell them, the association fees are ridiculous
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