This has come up in a couple of recent threads and I thought it could use its own thread.  It's sort of been done before here, but I was hesitant to bump that thread since it had posters who have vanished from the face of the earth, and it had started to stray from the topic a bit.

 

What do people think?  Should Dayton and Cincinnati be thought of as one metro?  If not now, when do you think it will be?  And when do you think such a combination will be official, if ever?  And is this a good thing?

 

Here's my opinion.  Dayton and Cincinnati are a single region but not a single metropolitan area.  They are very independent of one another, and I suspect it's mostly just the people in the middle who tend to think of them as a single metro.  From my end I can say that Dayton seems to pay little attention to Cincinnati apart from the Reds and Bengals.  In the Dayton newspaper, I'd say that a Cincinnati story written as a "local" story probably appears maybe only once a week on average.  Speaking of the newspaper, helping Dayton maintain its own identity is the fact that it has its own media market.  For the most part, Dayton's got its own set of cultural diversions, too.  In sum, Cincinnati has little to do with life in Dayton, and I'd guess that the reverse is also true.

 

As far as an official joining, it's inevitable that they will become a CSA some day, certainly by 2020 if not 2010.  That's largely due to some of Dayton's south suburbs being in the Cincinnati metro, which means that commuting from those 'burbs gets counted as commuting between the metros.  So all Dayton has to do is continue to sprawl outward without any real overall growth, and the inter-metro commuting levels will rise.  Urbanization (sprawl) between the two cities continues to increase but has not made a solid connection yet.  Jeff described the pattern in a recent post.

 

And so I'd say that we should just think of ourselves as one region but not one metro.  Certainly we in Dayton should see Cincinnati as a neighbor rather than some far-off city, but we should see it as separate because the fact is that it is separate.  Of course, having the two cities joined in a metro would make us look good on paper. :wink:

 

Other thoughts?  And if somebody wants to break out the obligatory maps and graphics, that'd be super.  I'll see if I have anything good.

As far as your comments regarding the news/media having no association with each other, I disagree. I subscribe to daily RSS feeds pertaining to news from Cincinnati, Dayton, and Columbus that I check usually a couple of times a day.

 

Of course, having the two cities joined in a metro would make us look good on paper.

 

It looks good and bad. It looks good for the numbers, but it also equates with sprawl, so I'm not completely sure how I feel.

I think what Pigboy meant by "looks good on paper" was that now you have the opportunity to have a region with 3.1 Million People. This looks good when trying to get companies or other retail venues into the region ...It Just makes the region look more substantial in the eyes of the Nation....i don't think that it is a bad thing.....the sprawl thing i understand, nobody likes sprawl :-P...but i think that a combined region would look very good in the eyes of the national general public...

Alot of people don't understand another huge benefit from it. Federal wages would go higher and we would get more Federal money for things like transportation which is BADLY needed.

Alot of people don't understand another huge benefit from it. Federal wages would go higher and we would get more Federal money for things like transportation which is BADLY needed.

 

This is EXACTLY why I'm hoping it happens in 2010. I think if the 2 cities do become one region and still keep their own identities it could be SO beneficial to the area. Hell, maybe we'd get some federal money to build a high speed or even light rail transit system between the 2 and then you've tapped into over 3 million people's talents and skills that could greatly make this area amazing with easy quick access from one city to the other. That's just my thoughts though! ;-)

By "look good on paper" I was mostly thinking in the sense of SSP/SSC penis-measuring contests. :-D  (Should have said "look good on internet forums!")  But yes, also just a little more recognition in the eyes of the general public, as UCplanner suggested.  It is unfortunate that it means more sprawl, of course.  If we could get a better connection without building a ton of new sprawl, or at least balance the sprawl with increases in the core parts of the cities, that'd be much better.  Enter the wishes for rail connections, etc.

 

As far as your comments regarding the news/media having no association with each other, I disagree. I subscribe to daily RSS feeds pertaining to news from Cincinnati, Dayton, and Columbus that I check usually a couple of times a day.

Are you saying that the media sources in these cities follow stories in the other cities, or that you as a resident of one of the cities follow stories in the other cities?  I hadn't thought about what news residents themselves follow, but certainly my sense of newspaper and TV news in Dayton is that Cincinnati is treated almost the same as any other city in Ohio; it's generally not "local" news along the lines of a story from, say, Centerville.

 

One other question I wanted to raise but forgot, which was also mentioned in another thread:  where do people think the current boundary between Dayton and Cincinnati is?  Obviously it wouldn't be a hard boundary, but perhaps there is a sense of the general area where it might be.  In another thread, I think Jeff suggested around Monroe and INK countered with Franklin.  I don't really have a good idea of it as I've never really had much to do with the whole middle area. 

By the way, PrfctTimeOfDay, where are you from/where do you live?  I've gathered that you must be from somewhere in the general Cin-Day area, but I haven't yet deduced where from your posts so far.

Well from the Census stand point. The Dayton UA has a part of middletown in it and the Cincinnati UA has a part of middletown in it.

^That is different than what Jeff said, he said something to the effect of a boundary dividing which city influenced the suburbs. Maybe you could phrase it, what city do the suburbs identify with, and when do they change to the other. It will come down to opinions I'm sure.

I'm thinking franklin(The exit past the middletown exit going north). Even though Middletown is closer to Dayton than to Cincinnati.

^You think people don't know where Franklin is? LOL.

The area needs jobs we need that 2 million SF Monroe mall and the casino. ;)

Pigboy, I live in Oakwood, just a hair south of Dayton. I have worked in both downtown Dayton and Cincy while living in the Dayton area.

 

as for where I think the cin-day border is....I'm going with MIDDLEtown...ironic huh? ;-)

 

I think when the 2 areas combine I think CIN-DAY is going to be a great thing for the people In the middletown, west chester, mason, lebanon area....etc. etc. I think right now they identify with one or the other, but really don't know where they belong. I think when and if CIN-DAY gets the attention it should, there will be a day when someone asks a person who may live in West Chester: Where are you from? and they can say Cin-Day and the other person will know..oh yeah, they must live right between dayton and cincy...without the person from WC having to tell the person that; "oh west chester is a community that is between cincy and dayton.  I work in cincy and my wife/husband works in dayton, though geographically we are closer to cincy, the work commute is faster to dayton...etc. etc. I'm hoping when people say they are from CIN-DAY people will gather the above info....b/c people in dayton and cincy are always going to say they are from their respective cities...I think CIN-DAY is going to finally give an identity to those people in the middle. ...rant over!! ;-)

Just think of the newest CSA Baltimore-Washington. If you live in Baltimore you'll tell people that's where you live and not DC. Same with Cleveland-Akron. If you live in Akron you won't say you live in Cleveland or am i wrong?

I think when the 2 areas combine I think CIN-DAY is going to be a great thing for the people In the middletown, west chester, mason, lebanon area....etc. etc. I think right now they identify with one or the other, but really don't know where they belong. I think when and if CIN-DAY gets the attention it should, there will be a day when someone asks a person who may live in West Chester: Where are you from? and they can say Cin-Day and the other person will know..oh yeah, they must live right between dayton and cincy...without the person from WC having to tell the person that; "oh west chester is a community that is between cincy and dayton.  I work in cincy and my wife/husband works in dayton, though geographically we are closer to cincy, the work commute is faster to dayton...etc. etc. I'm hoping when people say they are from CIN-DAY people will gather the above info....b/c people in dayton and cincy are always going to say they are from their respective cities...I think CIN-DAY is going to finally give an identity to those people in the middle. ...rant over!! ;-)

That's an interesting take, that Cin-Day will be an identity for those in the middle rather than for those at the two ends.  Makes sense.  Out of curiosity, is "Cin-Day" (or something to that effect) a phrase one might actually hear in those middle areas?  I recall a few years ago a radio station which advertised itself as serving the "Cin-Day corridor."

 

By the way, I'm glad to see another Dayton-area person here! :-)  Dayton representation is a little scant on this forum, and some of us aren't even living there now.  (I'm from Beavercreek but am currently in Wisconsin.)

Just think of the newest CSA Baltimore-Washington. If you live in Baltimore you'll tell people that's where you live and not DC. Same with Cleveland-Akron. If you live in Akron you won't say you live in Cleveland or am i wrong?

 

I am from The East side of Cleveland, but have lots of family in Akron and Canton. When in NEO they say they are from their prosepctive cities like everyone does, but when we are out of state they say Cleveland. I don't know how true that is for other Akron-Cantonites but that is what I have personally observed.

as for where I think the cin-day border is....I'm going with MIDDLEtown...ironic huh?

 

Are you just basing that on the name? (I get your reference to the name, I'm saying are you just basing the fact that people identify with either city by their relation to Middletown.)

 

 

 

Anyway, I think alot of people already use Cin-Day. In our travels, we have used the whole variety. I've found that people usually haven't heard of Dayton, or are at least unsure of where it is in the state (sorry PigBoy), and then we must clarify with Cincinnati. Sometimes we say we are from Middletown, the middle town between Cincy and Dayton and that generally brings a laugh. Lately, I've been lying and saying we are from Hamilton, the second-largest city in Greater Cincinnati.

 

However, I don't think people will just abbreviate to Cin-Day completely, especially people from West Chester Township, it just won't happen. If you haven't noticed, almost every city/super township in between the two cities has been working hard lately to establish their own identities, weather that is a town center, upscale housing, yada, yada

 

 

Something else, have you noticed that PigBoy and PTOD, both write Dayton and Cincinnati, instead of Cincinnati and Dayton? Why do I have a feeling that the middle communities will still be split, the upper portion living in Day-Cin, and the lower in Cin-Day.

What do people think?  Should Dayton and Cincinnati be thought of as one metro?  If not now, when do you think it will be?  And when do you think such a combination will be official, if ever?  And is this a good thing?

 

Here's my opinion.  Dayton and Cincinnati are a single region but not a single metropolitan area.

 

I see it like a European urban region....

 

sort of like Lancashire...

 

 

Two big cities...Liverpool and Manchester, which have been traditionally independent of each other, conneceted first by canal, later by rail.

(cf Dayon and Cincinnati)

 

A set of industrial cities and smaller milltowns, like Preston and Blackburn and Wigan

(cf Hamilton, Middletown, Springfield, and for the smaller mill towns, Franklin and Miamisburg)

 

Preindustrial towns/government seats, like maybe Lancaster

(cf Lebanon)

 

Cross River suburbs, llike The Wirral and Birkenhead, across the Mersey from Liverpool

(cf Covington/Newport)

 

Another example would be the Rhine-Main region in Germany, with Frankfurt being the big city, but other historically independent cities contributing, like Mainz, Wiesbanded, Hanau, Offenback, and Darmstadt.

 

 

...and this map brings in Ashcaffenburg (which means that this region is really sprawling..being in three German states...Hessen, Bavaria, and Rhineland-Palatinate)

 

I hadn't thought about what news residents themselves follow, but certainly my sense of newspaper and TV news in Dayton is that Cincinnati is treated almost the same as any other city in Ohio; it's generally not "local" news along the lines of a story from, say, Centerville.

 

Cincinnati is not really considerd local by our paper and TV, though the DDN has covered the AK Steel strike.

 

One other question I wanted to raise but forgot, which was also mentioned in another thread:  where do people think the current boundary between Dayton and Cincinnati is?  Obviously it wouldn't be a hard boundary, but perhaps there is a sense of the general area where it might be

 

It is going to be very fuzzy due to commuting patterns and also migration patterns.

 

My guess is the three northmost townships in Warren County are part of the Dayton area, and Lebanon is shared due to access down US 48 from Dayton...its right in the path of development, though its more exurban on the Dayton side. 

 

Southern Warren county is pretty much Cincinnati suburbia, pretty clear about that.

 

There is this sort of no-mans land out Springboro pike, say around Red Lion and towards Otterbein and the prison, that is seeing some exuurban development (ribbon development along country roads and large lot things), but not too much subdivision yet.

 

Then there is Franklin, which is actually a communting destination to some extent due to industrial parks, factorys, and stuff along freeway interchanges.  I know there is new developpment happening out along OH  123 toward Red Lion...so its an interesting question as to where these people are more affiliated with...Cincinnati or Dayton (or neither)...that area could be the furthest north outpost of Cincinnati sprawl.

 

In Butler county, Middletown sort makes "drawing the line" pretty vague, as it seems to generate its own suburbia.  I'd say Monroe is part of Cincinnatis commuter area, but Middletown and its suburbs are somewhat indpendent still.  I've heard anecdotal things about people moving to Middletown, but working in the Dayton area.

 

This whole discussion gets really interesting when one things beyond the "Center city-suburb-exurb" thing, in that this area has been dense enough for some time that people may not be identfying too much with either Dayton or Cincinnati, having grown up in a suburb or small town or small city between the two.

 

I did this map a while back on a number of commuters into Mongtomery County, as a way of seeing what the pattern is (almost could include Greene County as the "other" core county of Dayton, the way one could inlcuded Kenton & Campbell counties in KY as part of Cincy)

 

...so you can see how Warren is a big contributer to in-commuting...but also how counties north and east are important too.

 

Two maps on the DDN newspaper circulation and market areas, againg showing the northward direction of Daytons sphere of influence, with some overlap with Cincy to the south.

 

 

 

and, from 40 years ago,  an earlier attempt to determine Daytons sphere of influence, from an urban renewal marketing study.  Interesting to see how this has changed over the years due to Cincinnatis increasing pull to areas to the  northeast, particularly due to I-71 being built.

 

 

and, for what its worth, a map showing commuting areas as defined by the USDA (as they have an interest in employment/unemploymnet in rural areas).  Based on census tract, I think....

 

 

In terms of regionalism, the maps above imply that Dayton, as a market area, is probably more oriented north and east, not so much toward Cincinnati, which is its own region, even though there is that overlapping suburbia.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for those maps and things, Jeff.  Attempts like that to locate boundaries and speheres of influence are really interesting to me, but unfortunately that puts me about 50 years behind the times in urban geography.  I've come across maps like the "three/five deliniations" pair you posted, but they're always old, and nobody seems to do things like that anymore.

 

Your maps reminded me of that statewide commuting map I made a while ago.  It also helps give a sense of the general flow in the region, I suppose.

I think everyone is making it into a pissing contest as to which city will claim what is in the middle, which from my stand point is a fatal mistake. Both cities need to work together and with the middle cities to create a strong functional area...b/c as one super region/metro area/whatever, they can reap the benefits of having such a large scale of talent and people. and the $$$$ that goes along with it.

 

Thanks for the welcome PigBoy....love your photos by the way! It's nice to see another Daytonian. I'll be in Wisconsin for Business in May. Thought it'll be in the itty-bity town of Viroqua. mapquest that! ;-)

but unfortunately that puts me about 50 years behind the times in urban geography.  I've come across maps like the "three/five deliniations" pair you posted, but they're always old, and nobody seems to do things like that anymore.

 

..really? Thats interesting.  sort of topoic, but what is urban geography about nowadays, or what are people who do urban geography "in to".

 

As for drawing a sphere of influence...here is another approach:  map the season and single show ticket sales by location...location of season subcribers and ticket purchasers for the philharmonic, opera, and ballet companies for Dayton and Cincinnati.  That could be interesting.  Interesting as I know (anecdotally) that the Cincy performing arts organizations draw attendance from Lexington, Kentucky!

 

I think everyone is making it into a pissing contest as to which city will claim what is in the middle, which from my stand point is a fatal mistake.

 

It does sound that way, but I dont think its really possible to draw such an exact line, especially given the overlapping commuter patterns, and that people may have one earner working in one city and another in the other...but living in Warren or Butler counties (I know of one couple where thats the case), and that industry and buisiness is decentralizing into Butler and Warren, where these counties become empolyment centers in their own right.

 

 

Both cities need to work together and with the middle cities to create a strong functional area...b/c as one super region/metro area/whatever, they can reap the benefits of having such a large scale of talent and people. and the $$$$ that goes along with it.

 

You are correct with the regional approach, which is more common in the EU as an economic developement or planning/public policy concept (i sort of indirectly commented on this upthread via my German and UK examples).  The Dayton Daily News has editorialized in the past for such a regional approach, too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think the state of  Ohio knows what's happening in SW Ohio.That's one reason I-75 is being widen to 8 lanes at least between the two downtowns as we speak. I've seen suggestions that I-75 needs to be 12 lanes between the 2 metro's.

Pigboy....While i go to the wonderful University of Cincinnati...I am still a native of Vandalia, So you have another dayton person on the UO....I am actually writing this from my home in V-town, since i am on spring break....

I've seen suggestions that I-75 needs to be 12 lanes between the 2 metro's.

 

Some of the interstates in the Louisville area are 12 lane (& that is a smaller metro area), so I find the suggestion pretty reasonable .

 

Pigboy....While i go to the wonderful University of Cincinnati...I am still a native of Vandalia, So you have another dayton person on the UO....I am actually writing this from my home in V-town, since i am on spring break....

Yay!  I guess maybe the Dayton group is not so small... Dayton's got better representation here than the other second-tier Ohio cities, anyway.  That must mean we're cooler. 8-)

 

but unfortunately that puts me about 50 years behind the times in urban geography.  I've come across maps like the "three/five deliniations" pair you posted, but they're always old, and nobody seems to do things like that anymore.

 

..really? Thats interesting.  sort of topoic, but what is urban geography about nowadays, or what are people who do urban geography "in to".

I'm not sure how to describe it well, but I'd say that academic urban geography today is quite strongly into economic theory.  As one professor here has stated, there's not really such a thing as Regional Geography anymore, which would have been like the urban geography of the past, where a goal was to describe the city by doing things like looking at urban forms (architecture, layout, etc.) or identifying different zones of activity in a city, or finding the metropolitan boundary as mentioned here, and so on and so on.  That was the thing in the 50s and 60s (and maybe before), going along with the "quantitative revolution" in geography, which you can probably see would be a very descriptive kind of thing- defining the world with numbers, as it were.  Probably the 70s is when it started becoming much more about economics, and certainly by now it's all about some political-economic theoretical perspective or other.  I really have no idea of the exact kinds of things going on in modern urban geography because it just doesn't interest me, but I think that's the gist of it.

I think the state of  Ohio knows what's happening in SW Ohio.That's one reason I-75 is being widen to 8 lanes at least between the two downtowns as we spea. I've seen suggestions that I-75 needs to be 12 lanes between the 2 metro's.

 

I have to agree with the theory that more lanes = more traffic. It'll be more cramped and then they'll propose an additional 4 lanes to fix it.

Here are a couple of interesting maps I found about this kind of topic.  They show how the Cincinnati-Dayton Metro areas compare to others around the nation.  In terms of shear size it seems to be comperable to some other more recognizably larger metro regions.

 

Take a looksie:

 

 

 

 

WOW look at Atlanta.

^It looks bigger than Chicago.

Atlanta is CRAZY.

Heh... every time a map like that gets posted the initial reponse is invariably shock at Atlanta.

^how much did the olympics help the growth down there, if at all?

^how much did the olympics help the growth down there, if at all?

 

Well many southern cities have been sprawling like crazy.  Their populations have been growing, but they still lack the downtowns the midwestern and east coast cities boast.  For more examples similar to Atlanta see:  Charlotte,  Las Vegas, and Phoenix.

 

Here's an interesting prospective of Cincinnati-Dayton from a British standpoint.

 

 

Transportation Between Dayton and Cincinnati, Ohio

 

 

 

 

In southwestern Ohio, two cities sit close enough to tap into each other's radio and television stations. They're almost near enough to smell each other. Dayton, called the gem city, sits just above Cincinnati, the queen city, close enough to be part of the crown jewels.

 

More below:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A3952316

 

Very interesting and fun!  Though this part:

 

t sounds silly to go through all the trouble to fly a distance of less than 60 miles to some, but it's not uncommon among those in a rush and those who have enough money so that they don't have to put up with terrible traffic. Even after extensive security checks, it takes a well-prepared traveller less time to fly than to drive. Plus, you could make the case that flying is just a lot more fun than driving, what with seeing all the swimming pools and the tiny people...

 

I have never once heard of anyone commuting by airplane between Cincinnati and Dayton - the owner of my company owns a private jet, and his parents live in Dayton, and I don't think he's ever flown from one to the other - and I don't believe for a second that it would take a well-prepared traveller less time than driving it.  My wife and I drove to Chicago for a conference she had, and our travel time was identical to two other folks who flew there...that may have been an anomaly, but Dayton?  No way...

 

But other than that, a very cool article.  Thanks for posting it!

Yeah, I can't imagine it would ever be faster to fly, unless maybe you live at the airport.  In the time it takes just to get to the Dayton airport from Beavercreek, we could already be halfway to Cincinnati!

 

Interesting article, though.

I have indeed flown from dayton to cincy...not for pleasure though. I had a connecting flight outta the cincy airport....it was one of the worst flights ever...b/c the plane never gets high enough or to a decent crusing speed b/c of the close proximity....the flight is pretty much all turbulance. But it was a quick flight...I think it was somewhere around 21 minutes, but I'm not sure...it's been a couple of years.

We have found that so many times it is cheaper to fly Comair out of Dayton to Cincy than to just take Delta out of Cincy, which is absolutely ridiculous, but we like it because we'd rather leave from Dayton.

 

The article makes it sound as though the ramps in Cincy are such a problem and this is not so in Dayton, leading my to believe he hasn't been to Dayton, where I thing the ramps are probably worse, or at least the lanes which abruptly end, etc., etc.

 

Also, isn't the Little Miami Scenic Trail an old rail right-of-way? Thats a little off too.

 

I'm not sure what this article is telling us however.

I'm not sure what this article is telling us however

 

That BBC site is sort of their tongue-in-cheek version of Wikipedia.  One has to appreciate the dry wit going on....

 

&...Yeah, i, too, have flown from Dayton to Cincy to make a connecting Delta flight.

 

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

 

To add to the regionalism concept, here is a map of TV markets.  Interesting to see how Cincys elongates along the Ohio River, while Dayton's is more

"Ohio-ish"  (yet also picking up Richmond, interestingly enough)

 

 

...also interesting to see that Lima and vicinity is its own market.  As is Zanesville and Parkersburg/Marietta.

 

Lima must be more important than I thought.  Time for another look/road-trip.

 

 

...also interesting to see that Lima and vicinity is its own market.  As is Zanesville and Parkersburg/Marietta.

 

Lima must be more important than I thought.  Time for another look/road-trip.

 

Zanesville has (had?) it's own UHF station that, if you have a good antenna, can be barely picked up in Columbus.

Parkersburg has it's own network station (Ch 3 IIRC), I don't remember which network affliation it has.

What do people think?  Should Dayton and Cincinnati be thought of as one metro?  If not now, when do you think it will be?  And when do you think such a combination will be official, if ever?  And is this a good thing?

 

Here's my opinion.  Dayton and Cincinnati are a single region but not a single metropolitan area.

 

I see it like a European urban region....

 

sort of like Lancashire...

 

 

Two big cities...Liverpool and Manchester, which have been traditionally independent of each other, conneceted first by canal, later by rail.

(cf Dayon and Cincinnati)

 

A set of industrial cities and smaller milltowns, like Preston and Blackburn and Wigan

(cf Hamilton, Middletown, Springfield, and for the smaller mill towns, Franklin and Miamisburg)

 

Preindustrial towns/government seats, like maybe Lancaster

(cf Lebanon)

 

Cross River suburbs, llike The Wirral and Birkenhead, across the Mersey from Liverpool

(cf Covington/Newport)

 

Another example would be the Rhine-Main region in Germany, with Frankfurt being the big city, but other historically independent cities contributing, like Mainz, Wiesbanded, Hanau, Offenback, and Darmstadt.

 

 

...and this map brings in Ashcaffenburg (which means that this region is really sprawling..being in three German states...Hessen, Bavaria, and Rhineland-Palatinate)

 

Best description I've come across yet.  Thanks Jeff.