Hey all,

 

Starting this thread as a repository for the downtown microgrid proposal that's been percolating for a few years, and has now gained traction with the City and County with the advent of an imminent RFP slated for release once the County Sustainability Committee approves the remaining funding for the RFP issuance (~$115K). More broadly, a microgrid is "an energy island able to disconnect from the main electrical grid at any time, and generate and distribute independently by combining generation sources, such as generators, solar or wind energy and intelligent control systems." (Cleveland State). It would offer "redundant power in the event of a failure of a traditional power grid." (Crains). According to the below article from Crains, issuance of an RFP this year could result in the selection of a developer as soon as Q1-2020.

 

As far as power mix, its proposed to be driven largely by natural gas with increasing supplements of distributed generation, including solar and offshore wind off Lake Erie (what up LEEDCo!).

 

Here are a few good background resources:

 

http://levin.urban.csuohio.edu/microgrid-cleveland/index.html

 

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2018/10/downtown_cleveland_microgrid_p.html

 

http://sustainability.cuyahogacounty.us/en-US/Microgrid.aspx

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/energy-and-environment/county-microgrid-would-keep-power

 

I know there are probably plenty in the Cleveland development community interested in the topic, seeing as Cleveland State is more or less the one that got the ball rolling.

 

Personally, some questions at the top of my mind include:

 

(1) When the County is poised to approve the RFP funding and any political implications surrounding the decision, or alternatives if its denied

(2) Most likely / most viable anchor tenants within the study area

(3) Biggest economic development opportunities and/or targets (e.g. blockchain-based transactive energy trading... I see you Blockland)

(4) Creative financing mechanisms

(5) Most important public infrastructure investments and planning processes to supplement the private planning and investment process 

 

Looking forward to keeping up with this project as it progresses, as well as any further discussion from the community.

 

Edited July 18, 20195 yr by ASP1984

Very interesting, thank you for starting this thread.  I’m curious though as to why the micro grid would not expand west of the river, incorporating at least to west 25th and north of Columbus would make sense, no?  I imagine the micro grid itself would create several well paying jobs.  Apologies if that’s discussed in the linked articles, I’m a little pressed for time at this moment.

32 minutes ago, Sapper Daddy said:

Very interesting, thank you for starting this thread.  I’m curious though as to why the micro grid would not expand west of the river, incorporating at least to west 25th and north of Columbus would make sense, no?  I imagine the micro grid itself would create several well paying jobs.  Apologies if that’s discussed in the linked articles, I’m a little pressed for time at this moment.

 

No worries - there's a lot to digest.

 

Based on my understanding, microgrids are planned at the onset primarily around anchor load (i.e. think data centers, hospitals, companies with little tolerance for downtime) and then radiate out to encompass smaller customers usually involving high-priority community facilities or emergency shelters. The other constraint is legacy infrastructure / existing conditions (e.g. district heating or cooling systems, substations, existing distribution circuits and transmission lines) and their related real estate rights (i.e. primarily along public rights-of-way) and the relative ease with which one can build out a more streamlined, integrated set utilities (e.g. from gas lines and electrical conduits to water or broadband, or any combination thereof). My understanding is that legacy infrastructure from Cleveland Thermal aligns well with the study area, and that the river poses a natural boundary given that much of the infrastructure needs embedding underground. The CSU study took a stab at categorizing potential anchor tenants in this part of the city, as well as the existing infrastructure, and I'm sure the analysis leaves room to build on.

Edited July 18, 20195 yr by ASP1984

2 hours ago, Sapper Daddy said:

Very interesting, thank you for starting this thread.  I’m curious though as to why the micro grid would not expand west of the river, incorporating at least to west 25th and north of Columbus would make sense, no?  I imagine the micro grid itself would create several well paying jobs.  Apologies if that’s discussed in the linked articles, I’m a little pressed for time at this moment.

 

Thinking about your question more though, the GLBC development on Scranton Peninsula could provide a great northern anchor opportunity for a separate microgrid west of the river, spanning between Scranton on the north to MetroHealth to the south along West 25th. Its a comparable distance as is being studied between East 55th and the river, with plenty of businesses in between. Also, MetroHealth is envisioning their campus expansion as an EcoDistrict, which is a great planning framework for microgrid development. 

 

https://ecodistricts.org/registered-districts/metrohealth-community-district/

 

They're both forward-thinking, sustainability minded companies with a big sway in town. Its fun to imagine what it would be like if the two entities ever found a way to work together.

 

Edited July 18, 20195 yr by ASP1984

Is this something that Cleveland is lagging in compared to other cities, or is this something that is a newer idea and may be a nice tool to appeal to bringing new businesses into the city?  Interesting either way...

 

It’s a pretty novel idea. I have several utility clients that are trying to “jump ahead” in this space. As was mentioned upthread, you really need some foundational anchors to realize, stabilize, and utilize the micro grid, especially if it’s using distributed energy resources (commonly called DERs because everyone loves useless acronyms). 

Edited July 19, 20195 yr by Clevecane

13 hours ago, Clevecane said:

It’s a pretty novel idea. I have several utility clients that are trying to “jump ahead” in this space. As was mentioned upthread, you really need some foundational anchors to realize, stabilize, and utilize the micro grid, especially if it’s using distributed energy resources (commonly called DERs because everyone loves useless acronyms). 

 

Clevecane: just curious, but in what ways are they looking to "jump ahead?" Are they evaluating equipment-specific pilots on the distribution side? DER's + storage? Both? Would be curious to know, as well as the general geographic reach if that's something you're able to discuss. 

 

More broadly, I understand that Pitt Ohio is completing a microgrid for a trucking terminal in Parma this summer. Unique to see in Ohio, given the astronomical per watt cost and lack of state renewable incentives. Apparently companies are assigning increasing value to reliability and other grid firming services.

 

https://microgridknowledge.com/renewable-energy-microgrid-trucking/

On 7/19/2019 at 12:22 PM, ASP1984 said:

 

Clevecane: just curious, but in what ways are they looking to "jump ahead?" Are they evaluating equipment-specific pilots on the distribution side? DER's + storage? Both? Would be curious to know, as well as the general geographic reach if that's something you're able to discuss.

 

Both, but mainly DERs at this point with storage being a future desire if anyone can ever figure it out. The lack of functional storage is I believe why they’re looking at anchors that will actually need the energy—hospitals, universities, military bases, etc. 

this is absolutely brilliant/innovative to be planning and it's very interesting -- thanks -- and yeah lets keep up with these developments.

Cleveland Seeks Developer in Next Stage of Large Downtown Microgrid Project

November 4, 2019 By Andrew Burger

 

Ohio’s Cuyahoga County and partners have issued a request for qualifications (RFQ) seeking a developer for what could become a $100 million microgrid district in downtown Cleveland.

 

Working with the City of Cleveland, Cleveland Public Power and the Cleveland Organization, the county seeks responses to the RFQ by November 15.

 

Cleveland’s downtown microgrid district would be of a size and scope and nature seen in few microgrids to date. According to project plans, it would encompass Cleveland’s central business district, a two- to three-square-mile area, bound roughly by Interstate 90 and the Cuyahoga River.

 

https://microgridknowledge.com/cleveland-microgrid-district/

22 hours ago, MuRrAy HiLL said:

Cleveland Seeks Developer in Next Stage of Large Downtown Microgrid Project

November 4, 2019 By Andrew Burger

 

Ohio’s Cuyahoga County and partners have issued a request for qualifications (RFQ) seeking a developer for what could become a $100 million microgrid district in downtown Cleveland.

 

Working with the City of Cleveland, Cleveland Public Power and the Cleveland Organization, the county seeks responses to the RFQ by November 15.

 

Cleveland’s downtown microgrid district would be of a size and scope and nature seen in few microgrids to date. According to project plans, it would encompass Cleveland’s central business district, a two- to three-square-mile area, bound roughly by Interstate 90 and the Cuyahoga River.

 

https://microgridknowledge.com/cleveland-microgrid-district/

 

$20 the ultimate response ties into the Sherwin Williams HQ.

If the deadline for the RFQ is in less than two weeks, that makes me want to think they’ve got a particular proposal they are considering and the RFQ process is more a formality/for appearances. Nobody could put together a serious microgrid proposal in 10 days.

Seems to me this will be a key piece of infrastructure.  Definitely should give Cleveland a leg up in business retention and attraction.

Edited November 6, 20195 yr by Sapper Daddy

1 hour ago, LlamaLawyer said:

If the deadline for the RFQ is in less than two weeks, that makes me want to think they’ve got a particular proposal they are considering and the RFQ process is more a formality/for appearances. Nobody could put together a serious microgrid proposal in 10 days.

 

Actually the project partners issued the RFQ on October 17. Middough Engineering is managing the process.

 

http://sustainability.cuyahogacounty.us/en-US/Microgrid.aspx

14 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said:

If the deadline for the RFQ is in less than two weeks, that makes me want to think they’ve got a particular proposal they are considering and the RFQ process is more a formality/for appearances. Nobody could put together a serious microgrid proposal in 10 days.

 

Yeah but its an RFQ - my understanding is that this is a precursor to requesting proposals (RFP).

2 hours ago, ASP1984 said:

 

Yeah but its an RFQ - my understanding is that this is a precursor to requesting proposals (RFP).

Oh, good point. ?

On 11/5/2019 at 7:23 PM, ASP1984 said:

 

$20 the ultimate response ties into the Sherwin Williams HQ.

 

Getting warmer...

 

"The county would use “good faith” efforts to support the needs of Sherwin-Williams if it opts into a proposed microgrid project, which would provide a back-up source of power during electrical outages for a portion of downtown Cleveland. The county also would consider paying a portion of the costs associated with Sherwin-Williams using the microgrid."

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/02/proposed-sherwin-williams-agreement-with-cuyahoga-county-includes-potential-help-redeveloping-landmark-office-towers.html

Edited February 12, 20205 yr by ASP1984

I don't see why this would be critical downtown but do see how it would be extremely useful in the CC/UC  area.

^The Clinic and UH already have their own significant backup generators that keep the places mostly running during an outage.

 

There was an article posted in another thread about twitter being fed up with San Francisco and many companies moving to remote work and satellite offices. I can't help but think downtown having its own dedicated electrical grid would be attractive to a Facebook or Google.

This has massive upside for businesses with cybersecurity concerns - especially in light of the discovery of Russian malware in several of our power grids last year. 

Not having to take the steps down 20 flights of stairs during an outage is a benefit. 

26 minutes ago, bjk said:

Not having to take the steps down 20 flights of stairs during an outage is a benefit. 

Better than up...  ?

29 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

Better than up...  ?

Would a microgrid like this be an important part of a project to build say, a research and design facility? And if it would be, would it be enough to change the mind of a large corporation planning to move said research and design facility to a boring patch of grass in the suburbs?

23 minutes ago, math said:

Would a microgrid like this be an important part of a project to build say, a research and design facility? And if it would be, would it be enough to change the mind of a large corporation planning to move said research and design facility to a boring patch of grass in the suburbs?

 

It could be - one example is blockchain, which is computation-heavy and requires huge amounts of both power and reliability. If you consider its applicability to industries like energy (e.g. transactive energy trading between producers and consumers on a microgrid) or healthcare (e.g. increasing interoperability and security of patient information), the R&D implications of a reliable microgrid in a marketable part of downtown with great public transit access and proximity to a wide diversity of companies is huge. A microgrid could lend huge credibility to the Blockland effort currently underway at Tower City.

Edited February 12, 20205 yr by ASP1984

A microgrid would be beneficial for any industry or organization that has high utilization rates. So police stations, port facilities, hospitals would be the more public facing organizations that would want 24/7 coverage. 

   The other reason for a microgrid is to have cleaner electricity. This helps with maintaining all electrical equipment in avoiding spikes that can damage sensitive electronics.  
   I would think a major tie-in to a microgrid would be the lake erie wind farm when it gets built. 
   This could affect many decisions that are going on now in regards to the ongoing musical chaIrs of various Cleveland organization building sites being looked at. 

1 minute ago, audidave said:

A microgrid would be beneficial for any industry or organization that has high utilization rates. So police stations, port facilities, hospitals would be the more public facing organizations that would want 24/7 coverage. 

   The other reason for a microgrid is to have cleaner electricity. This helps with maintaining all electrical equipment in avoiding spikes that can damage sensitive electronics.  
   I would think a major tie-in to a microgrid would be the lake erie wind farm when it gets built. 
   This could affect many decisions that are going on now in regards to the ongoing musical chaIrs of various Cleveland organization building sites being looked at. 

 

To add to this, the microgrid is being aimed at the 24/7 operations - banks, major corps., CSU, etc. - those that can't really afford to depend solely on CPP/First Energy. Don't quote me, but I believe the 'whale building' is going to be a tie-in. 

Just now, GISguy said:

 

To add to this, the microgrid is being aimed at the 24/7 operations - banks, major corps., CSU, etc. - those that can't really afford to depend solely on CPP/First Energy. Don't quote me, but I believe the 'whale building' is going to be a tie-in. 

This is a very smart direction to go and is worth all levels of government to help push this through.  Essentially it is modernizing the city electric system which will allow better management of it and likely reduce the cost of electricity by maintaining a better system. It will allow companies to not have to have backup power sources because there is ample backup power on the micro-grid.   

Actually the businesses that require 99.99999% power availability will still have backup generators because this type of business ALWAYS has back up upon backup upon backup...

Edited February 13, 20205 yr by Larry1962
Typos and more details

2 hours ago, Larry1962 said:

Actually the businesses that require 99.999% power availability will still have backup generators because this type of business ALWAYS has back up upon backup upon backup...

 

Totally. I did a couple interviews for a Real Estate Developer position on Facebooks Data Center team a few years back. It was a great excuse to learn about all the ways tech companies think about building in redundancy, even as it extends out to the circuits themselves between a data center and the closest substation. The data center was, almost by design, intended to be the anchor for a microgrid so they could influence how it interacts from a demand-response perspective with other customers on the circuit to maintain overall circuit reliability (i.e. managing supply/demand balance, responding to voltage flicker, timing certain energy-intensive processing exercises for off-peak hours, etc). They brought up the "five 9's" (99.99999% reliability - or maybe it was seven? Idk) every other minute, and onsite backup was always a requirement. However, battery storage management models for distributed solar plants can allow multiple solar farms / arrays throughout a circuit to talk to each other, and coordinate as to who should release how much power when depending on the time of day and circuit load profile, and who should hold back energy. So what form that backup takes depending on customer type is going to be an open question.

 

In this vein, I also thought it was interesting how a data center's physical position or proximity on the circuit relative to other loads influenced their grid integration design and facility load management strategy. I would imagine that the Cleveland microgrids partial reliance on natural gas will allow it to ramp power pretty quickly (as opposed to a battery), which I'm sure provides an attractive advantage to certain types of businesses regardless of onsite backup (though I'm sure we'll see fuel cells). But then again, Tesla backed windfarms in South Wales, Australia proved differently a few years back when they were quicker to correct grid imbalances than fossil generation assets. By the time this gets built, battery storage technology (hardware and software) and fuel cells will be advanced enough to allow for some truly interesting outcomes. 

 

Idk, I could ramble on and on about this stuff.

Edited February 13, 20205 yr by ASP1984

^Obviously there are companies that can never have enough backup electricity plans. The point is the organizations that are part of the microgrid can be charged additional cent or 2 per kwh for the service of clean electricity. 

1 hour ago, audidave said:

^Obviously there are companies that can never have enough backup electricity plans. The point is the organizations that are part of the microgrid can be charged additional cent or 2 per kwh for the service of clean electricity. 

Very true that some companies do only need "clean" electric and as long as the downtimes are very minimal, they can tolerate them.

And I totally agree that IF they are successful with signing up enough companies in the CBD to join the CLE Microgrid Project.

 

Then it will DEFINITELY be very helpful in attracting and retaining more tech companies in the Cleveland CBD!

Cuyahoga County is Betting on Microgrids to Power the Area's Business Future

“[Foley] estimates the first system could be online as early as two years from now and be powered by renewables like solar farms.

“We want the cleanest, greenest source of electricity you can find or can build into this thing,” Foley said,

He said there is already interest from Sherwin Williams, but Nestle, Cleveland Hopkins Airport, and NASA Glenn Research Center are interested, too.”

https://www.wksu.org/government-politics/2021-10-25/cuyahoga-county-is-betting-on-microgrids-to-power-the-areas-business-future


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited December 1, 20213 yr by ASP1984

Columbus getting aggressive with microgrid development >> 5 pilot projects in the works. 

 

Cleveland take note!

 

What does the city's first solar "microgrid" look like? (dispatch.com)

On 11/11/2022 at 3:43 PM, ASP1984 said:

Columbus getting aggressive with microgrid development >> 5 pilot projects in the works. 

 

Cleveland take note!

 

What does the city's first solar "microgrid" look like? (dispatch.com)

 

The county is a big part of the microgrid project as well.

Microgrid is one step closer. LA Contractor selected, Compass Energy. The zone of Hopkins and NASA is mentioned as a microgrid site. But when all this talk began, it was for a zone Downtown. I think the airport and Downtown, and then University Circle (perhaps all the way to 83 St to include the Clinic) make sense and make the most sense. BUT, the article doesn't even mention Downtown (or Univ Circle) and instead, after talking about the airport, says:

 

"The new county administration headed by Chris Ronayne, who was sworn into office at the beginning of the year, supports microgrid projects set to begin in the cities of Euclid, Cleveland Heights, Brooklyn and Brook Park, where legislation enabling the county utility has passed, Foley said." 

 

That makes no sense.

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/government/cuyahoga-county-selects-california-firm-build-out-microgrids-operate-utility

Can’t we just build a nuclear plant in the flats and have large amounts of cheap, carbon free, consistent power?

 

I don’t understand the push for new grid infrastructure when we already have huge nat gas stores under the lake.

I'm not sure if you would want a fission nuclear plant in the middle of a city...  if ever fusion is able to provide enough power, then yeah...

10 hours ago, fredfredburger said:

Can’t we just build a nuclear plant in the flats and have large amounts of cheap, carbon free, consistent power?

 

I don’t understand the push for new grid infrastructure when we already have huge nat gas stores under the lake.

Nuclear plants are not cheap and take years to decades to build.

 

You mentioned carbon-free in your nuclear question, then propose burning fossil gas as another solution?  I'm not sure how having natural gas would impact the decision to pursue a microgrid anyway.

On 1/7/2023 at 12:44 PM, ProspectAve said:

Microgrid is one step closer. LA Contractor selected, Compass Energy. The zone of Hopkins and NASA is mentioned as a microgrid site. But when all this talk began, it was for a zone Downtown. I think the airport and Downtown, and then University Circle (perhaps all the way to 83 St to include the Clinic) make sense and make the most sense. BUT, the article doesn't even mention Downtown (or Univ Circle) and instead, after talking about the airport, says:

 

"The new county administration headed by Chris Ronayne, who was sworn into office at the beginning of the year, supports microgrid projects set to begin in the cities of Euclid, Cleveland Heights, Brooklyn and Brook Park, where legislation enabling the county utility has passed, Foley said." 

 

That makes no sense.

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/government/cuyahoga-county-selects-california-firm-build-out-microgrids-operate-utility

 

I think these cities are getting the microgrid first just because the legislation is ready. Obviously the big goals are downtown and UC, but it would be great for every neighborhood to have its own microgrid.

 

12 hours ago, fredfredburger said:

Can’t we just build a nuclear plant in the flats and have large amounts of cheap, carbon free, consistent power?

 

I don’t understand the push for new grid infrastructure when we already have huge nat gas stores under the lake.

 

A microgrid has nothing to do with this. What I think they're intending to do are "islandible microgrids" which are typically part of the wider grid but can also operate independently in emergencies with widespread dysfunction. You can generate power from any source for the microgrids. They're hoping to connect these microgrids with the ice-breaker project, but the two projects are totally independent of each other (i.e. you could have a microgrid with just existing power generation and could have wind turbines with no microgrid).

On 1/7/2023 at 12:44 PM, ProspectAve said:

Microgrid is one step closer. LA Contractor selected, Compass Energy. The zone of Hopkins and NASA is mentioned as a microgrid site. But when all this talk began, it was for a zone Downtown. I think the airport and Downtown, and then University Circle (perhaps all the way to 83 St to include the Clinic) make sense and make the most sense. BUT, the article doesn't even mention Downtown (or Univ Circle) and instead, after talking about the airport, says:

 

"The new county administration headed by Chris Ronayne, who was sworn into office at the beginning of the year, supports microgrid projects set to begin in the cities of Euclid, Cleveland Heights, Brooklyn and Brook Park, where legislation enabling the county utility has passed, Foley said." 

 

That makes no sense.

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/government/cuyahoga-county-selects-california-firm-build-out-microgrids-operate-utility

 

Let me see if the maps are public, but we worked on some regarding the microgrid and why certain locations were chosen. 

8 hours ago, acd said:

Nuclear plants are not cheap and take years to decades to build.

 

You mentioned carbon-free in your nuclear question, then propose burning fossil gas as another solution?  I'm not sure how having natural gas would impact the decision to pursue a microgrid anyway.

My point with nat gas is that we have a micro grid already. Stored energy beneath the lake that we can access and preserve the downtown grid whenever. 

3 hours ago, fredfredburger said:

My point with nat gas is that we have a micro grid already. Stored energy beneath the lake that we can access and preserve the downtown grid whenever. 

 

A microgrid is, by definition, new grid infrastructure. The fact that natural gas is sitting under the lake doesn't mean anything. You still have to build something new to utilize it. But I get the gist of what you're saying. 

 

A combined wind, natural gas, solar microgrid located downtown would no doubt be a competitive advantage for Cleveland.

 

Edited January 10, 20232 yr by ASP1984

12 hours ago, fredfredburger said:

My point with nat gas is that we have a micro grid already. Stored energy beneath the lake that we can access and preserve the downtown grid whenever. 

The presence of energy is not the important part of the microgrid.  There's no shortage of gas distribution in Ohio, and Dominion already has huge storage fields near Canton.  Having reliable electricity when the macro grid is unreliable is the point.

 

Building a new gas-fired plant would obviously provide electricity, but it would probably be prohibitively expensive since it would be mostly redundant.  It would also age poorly, as we'll need to be done with carbon-producing energy in a couple of decades at most.

 

Just installing utility-scale batteries seems like a better way to go.  This would actually help during times when the macro grid is operational as well, since it can smooth demand and prevent the need for peaker plants to come online.  Long-duration storage is still pretty nascent, but coupling with local wind and solar could probably provide a microgrid decent independent runtime.

5 hours ago, acd said:

The presence of energy is not the important part of the microgrid.  There's no shortage of gas distribution in Ohio, and Dominion already has huge storage fields near Canton.  Having reliable electricity when the macro grid is unreliable is the point.

 

Building a new gas-fired plant would obviously provide electricity, but it would probably be prohibitively expensive since it would be mostly redundant.  It would also age poorly, as we'll need to be done with carbon-producing energy in a couple of decades at most.

 

Just installing utility-scale batteries seems like a better way to go.  This would actually help during times when the macro grid is operational as well, since it can smooth demand and prevent the need for peaker plants to come online.  Long-duration storage is still pretty nascent, but coupling with local wind and solar could probably provide a microgrid decent independent runtime.

Utility scale batteries are very expensive, will only get more expensive with time as Lithium demand continues to increase, and are inefficient ways of storing energy (Lithium Ion stores 1/100 the energy of gasoline). I am not in favor of building or buying a new Nat Gas generator for a microgrid, but it would be much cheaper (https://www.uspeglobal.com/listings/1334945-used-25-mw-2018-used-ge-tm2500-natural-gas-turbine-generator-sets). The technology is simply not there yet with batteries. Hopefully, someone will be able to create a stable sodium or potassium battery.

 

Solar is not a viable option in Northeast Ohio, and wind will only work when battery tech improves. If we need a microgrid let's just spend the 15 million on the extra nat gas turbine connected to downtown or build another nuclear plant. Until battery technology improves this is just a waste of money and a pro-oil/pro-mining scheme.

 

 

 

You want to build a nuclear power plant? 

 

We have $15 million, not $15 billion.

 

Also, who says solar isn't viable here?  It's viable in Germany, which gets no more sun that we do.

29 minutes ago, fredfredburger said:

Utility scale batteries are very expensive, will only get more expensive with time as Lithium demand continues to increase, and are inefficient ways of storing energy (Lithium Ion stores 1/100 the energy of gasoline). I am not in favor of building or buying a new Nat Gas generator for a microgrid, but it would be much cheaper (https://www.uspeglobal.com/listings/1334945-used-25-mw-2018-used-ge-tm2500-natural-gas-turbine-generator-sets). The technology is simply not there yet with batteries. Hopefully, someone will be able to create a stable sodium or potassium battery.

 

Solar is not a viable option in Northeast Ohio, and wind will only work when battery tech improves. If we need a microgrid let's just spend the 15 million on the extra nat gas turbine connected to downtown or build another nuclear plant. Until battery technology improves this is just a waste of money and a pro-oil/pro-mining scheme.

 

 

 

 

Lithium prices will not keep climbing since the increase in price/demand will induce exploration to increase the supply.  Energy density of lithium is not that important in this application because available space is plentiful, unlike in a car.

 

Obviously we differ on this, but a carbon emitting energy source should be a non-starter.  It doesn't fit with Cleveland's goal of 100% clean energy by 2050.  If you're looking for non-lithium energy storage, we could pursue iron-air (Form Energy is building a manufacturing plant on the Ohio River in WV) or compressed air, but any kind of storage would still be better than building an unnecessary generator that sits idle unless we lose grid power.

 

I have solar on my house.  It generates a ton in the summer and not that much in the winter.  That's still viable and valuable assuming it's coupled with wind, storage, and other energy sources (even small modular nuclear if it ever gets approved).  I won't be able to go off-grid, but peak-shaving helps prevent grid operators from buying expensive sources of power in high-demand periods.

 

That's the kind of thing the microgrid should try to accomplish, since the times of needing to be "islanded" as the sole power source will be rare.  It should also strive to be technologically advanced.  When given the opportunity to design something like this, why would we populate it with a technology that will be approaching obsolescence in the next 10 years?

1 hour ago, X said:

 

Also, who says solar isn't viable here?  It's viable in Germany, which gets no more sun that we do.

Is it really though?

 

 

I think wind is a better option for us.

1 hour ago, fredfredburger said:

Utility scale batteries are very expensive, will only get more expensive with time as Lithium demand continues to increase, and are inefficient ways of storing energy (Lithium Ion stores 1/100 the energy of gasoline). I am not in favor of building or buying a new Nat Gas generator for a microgrid, but it would be much cheaper (https://www.uspeglobal.com/listings/1334945-used-25-mw-2018-used-ge-tm2500-natural-gas-turbine-generator-sets). The technology is simply not there yet with batteries. Hopefully, someone will be able to create a stable sodium or potassium battery.

 

Solar is not a viable option in Northeast Ohio, and wind will only work when battery tech improves. If we need a microgrid let's just spend the 15 million on the extra nat gas turbine connected to downtown or build another nuclear plant. Until battery technology improves this is just a waste of money and a pro-oil/pro-mining scheme.

 

You're definitely right that battery tech isn't there yet.

 

I think the medium term plan with building a bunch of wind turbines should be that they can supply up to 100% of the power needs, with natural gas stepping in to supplement during peak demand or times of low wind. Then eventually, maybe, somehow, someday if we get amazing high-capacity solid state batteries/iron batteries/whatever, you can phase out the natural gas. 

 

I think we can definitely work on building out cost-effective (or at least borderline cost effective) green energy now, recognizing that there are no silver bullets and there is no actual plan for carbon neutral 2050.

 

Offshore wind, it seems inevitable, will be a major source of power in Cleveland in the future. So we might as well start building up the expertise and knowledge base on how to make it work now.