Dallas added over 75,000 jobs last year. Pheonix add 100,000 jobs last year. Houston add 73,000 jobs last year.

Why is the south kicking ass? Is it because they are taking companies from the Midwest and relocating to the south or their local companies are expanding so much, yet Ohio companies can't expand as much? I just don't understand it.

I'm curious as to whats driving the Phoenix economy. 

I was thinking Alabama, Georigia, etc, when you said "the south" so once I read this I wasn't nearly as surprised. Phoenix definitely thrives on reckless sprawl and I'm pretty certain it's a similar situation in Houston and Dallas. I guess in a way it's good our cities aren't experiencing such growth, though we find ways to continue sprawling outward anyway.

Ahhh a typical unusualfire thread.  I could have guessed it was you based on the title.  Unfortunately many people tend to want to move to warmer climates.  Some of the companies have moved with them and have offered crazy incentives to bring them here. 

 

But if you want one generalization...  "UNIONS"  - That is the bottom line, companies don't want tired leach unions bringing down their companies like GM.  Break the union stronghold and you will see a reversal, mark my words.

No unions, low taxes, lax regulation (in other words, low wages, no benefits, poor public services, and little environmental/worker/consumer protection).  The South is winning the race to the bottom.  Congratulations.

"The South is winning the race to the bottom.  Congratulations."

 

:clap: I love that - may I borrow it?

As often as you like.

Funny...it seems when a company breaks the hold of those teeeerrible unions...you would think they would be able to sell the product at a little cheaper price.....NOT    The unions aren't the evil everyone wants to make them out to be....

As a former union worker, being in a union is like throwing away money every month to be apart of nothing.  I am glad that I left that job.  The faster unions go away, the better off everyone will be.  I will not make a comment about sprawl.

I AM a union worker, proud of it, and would never want to change that.  I come from a family of union workers...in fact, my grandfather organized the unions waaay back in the day in the western PA coal mines...you think unions are bad...you should have worked for the "company" back then!  The ONLY reason that companies that are non-union now treat their employees well...is fear of unionizing.  Whether people realize it or not, even non-union companies are kept somewhat in check.  Read your history and see how employees were treated at one time.  Trust me, it isn't union wages that kill companies....it's mismanagement.  GM was used as one example of how unions killed the company...wages?  NO  they have less employees now than ever, use more robotics which don't collect paychecks, outsource more, etc....yet somehow it's the unions breaking the company?  I wonder if the average person knows what percentage it actually costs GM for labor and materials?  You might be surprised at how little it is.  Most of these companies "lose" money because they don't meet their "projected" profits...when in reality, they really didn't lose anything.  But hey, let all industry leave the country, leaving only low paying jobs, service jobs, and "white collar" jobs here....someday the wonderful "free trade" concept is going to bite us all in the ass.....but...just MHO...

JDD,

 

You keep mentioning examples of why unions were great for workers back in the day. No one is disputing that. They held a very necessary position back then. 

 

And of course mismanagement kills companies.  What company can survive mismanagement?  That, however, does not address why companies are choosing the south over Cleveland.  They have lower labor costs. period.  This discussion is about where companies choose to locate, not where they choose to go bankrupt.

 

Present day, GM is not dying because of mismanagment.  Its dying because of the union contract that it signed in the late 90s.  They took a bet and they lost.  Now they are paying out the nose.  The foreign carmakers don't have the same pension and health care costs that GM has. 

"I come from a family of union workers...in fact, my grandfather organized the unions waaay back in the day in the western PA coal mines...

 

And when I was seven years old, I stood with my dad and a bunch of other machinists outside their mill in the middle of January with a 55-gallon drum "fireplace" to keep us warm while they were on strike. What's your point? Not everyone lives in a bubble and it would help if you would realize that.

 

Don't get me wrong - in plenty of cases, unions keep the "company" from abusing or underpaying workers. But in just as many cases unions themselves have become the "company" against another "company" and they ignore reality, like a city that's lost half it's population.

No unions, low taxes, lax regulation (in other words, low wages, no benefits, poor public services, and little environmental/worker/consumer protection).  The South is winning the race to the bottom.  Congratulations.

 

 

I work in automotive.  Last year I worked at a new plant in Mississippi and now I work at a plant in Chicago that is just a few months older.  The colleages in MS made $2 more per hour than the union colleages in Chicago.  The plant in MS was ISO 14001 certified (enviromental), our Chicago plant is not.  Everyone who worked at our plant down there went to at least a month of training, paid for by the state of Mississippi.

 

The stereotype of Southern work conditions is not true, and it is a serious threat to retaining our manufacturing base.

 

BTW the same could be said about western Ohio , Indiana, and all points south.

I've noticed that trend as well, in terms of there being a lot of jobs in the South.  I go to school at OU and I know a lot of people that graduated recently just found jobs primaraly in North Carolina.  It seems like everyone I know is going there. 

 

My two cents about Unions.  I was a part of one, I didn't like it because I was only 15 and about a days worth of wages went to paying dues.  Also, I felt employees abused the system.  Anytime they an employee was unhappy about something as rediculous as not recieving there break on-time, they would threaten to go to the Union.  I feel, in that regard, that they help the lazy, sometimes.  On the other hand, Unions fight for better wages and benefits, some of these things wouldn't happen without unionization.  Now my fathers company does not have a union and they have been trying to keep it that way for years now and they have done a good job so far because they offer decent benefits and genually treat there workers well.  They do this not only because they are afraid of unionizing, but do it because it also the right thing to do in general.  Unionization, was good in the past, and in some cases is still good today.  Unionization should be scaled back a bit but shouldn't be done away with altogether because you wouldn't even have the threat of unionization to motivate a company to do well. 

Companies move to areas of substantial population growth. Its not the prime reason but it's factored in when a company looks to locate somewhere.I believe the lack of population growth in Ohio along with the mis-management from our Governor is a key reason for our dismal economy.

 

A major reason for population growth in the south and west is not mainly because of warm weather (if that was the case why was the north so populated all these years) but more because texas, arizona, nevada, florida, georgia (i.e.the fastest growing states) count non-citizens in the census. Ohio doesnt live near the border to pick up that growth which is why we are stagnant. Another thing to think about is that the cheap labor makes businesses in the south more profitable because the easy access to cheap mexican labor brings down thier fixed cost. Its not rocket science, I go down to Texas every year to see family and Ive been studying these things.

 

Ohio needs to make a national powerplay because all things being equal, they will always have the advantage. This is why Im a stanch supporter of that Immigration Amendment in the Ohio House, and I urge everyone here to support it.  It will shift the balance of power back to the Midwest by not counting non-citizens in the census (which doesnt make sense anyway).

^There are more illeagals in Chicago, hell in Cleveland for that matter, than I ever saw in Mississippi

^

 

Thats why Mississippi is the poorest state in the Union...The point is non-citizens unfairly boost certain economies.

^

The point is non-citizens unfairly boost certain economies.

I guess we could ask "non-citizens" to equally boost every economy.  Just like we should ask every citizen and (more importantly) every business to equally boost every economy.  :roll:

 

If Cleveland & Cincinnatti didn't sprawl itself out to a 35 mile radius in all directions, our population would have been stable for the last 40 years.  It may not be population growth, but there wouldn't be that stigma that those cities were hemorraging citizens, and the cities would be self sustainable because of their density.

NPR had a ridiculous report on the "rapid growth county of Medina."  I'm willing to bet 99% of the residents of that damn county are ex-Cuyahoga County residents.  How could NPR of a entities applaud this development.

Phoenix is the cheap alternative to California.  The South is cheaper than the Northeast and I would imagine depending on where we are talking about, parts of the Midwest.

 

The cities grow.  People come.  Industries are thriving just on home building and service industries.  Retail grows as well.  People know that they can get a job in city ___, so they move there and the cycle continues and the growth spurs growth.  If you don't have that cycle and you don't have good in migration, then it is tougher to get a good pace going.  Some of the "fast" growers in the Midwest, Columbus and Indy are only moderate growers nationally.

 

 

I live in Phoenix and could try and add something to the thread:

 

To me it seems that the massive population growth in Phoenix actually spurs the growing economy of the area, rather than the opposite.  The industries directly related to population growth (think retail, construction, real-estate, transportation...) are HUGE here.  Mix in cheap cost of living (relatively speaking compared to the west coast - although not what it used to be), seemingly infinite pool of cheap, non-unionized labor, no geographic barriers to suburban sprawl...  well, you get the idea.

 

My question for the original post has to do with the exactness of the quoted statistics.  I think it pays to really have the exact nature of the statistics on hand for the good of the discussion - i.e. what was the source of the stats?  What type of jobs are we discussing?  Are we talking about metropolitan areas in general or just the actual cities?  Sometimes more information about the statistics is a great place to look for more information.

 

 

 

    Cincinnati was the fastest growing city in the nation in 1840, with population doubling every 10 years. The Great Lakes cities of Buffalo, Cleveland, Toledo, and Detroit had their day in the 1920's. Today, it's the southern cities of Miami, Tampa, Houston, and Phoenix that are growing.

 

    Without going into reasons, suffice it to say that nothing can grow forever in a finite world. The southern cities haven't reached their saturation point yet.

 

    The U.S. Census projects that California, Texas, and Florida will each increase by 12 million in population in 25 years. They also project that Ohio will peak in 2018.

 

JDD,

 

You keep mentioning examples of why unions were great for workers back in the day. No one is disputing that. They held a very necessary position back then. 

 

Amen...

 

It is a myth that Columbus & Indy are fast growers, in reality they are fast annexers.

^I wish Cincy could annex.  I would love to have one jurisdiction for the entire county, instead of the ridiculous amounts of jurisdictions that currently exist.  Not to mention it would bring Cincy's population from around 360,000 to around 800 some odd thousand.

^ I am totally content with Cincinnati as it is.  I would rather keep the city as it is.  Plus, I don't know if I would want some city officials running the entire county.

or as a friend of mine put it... " the south is the 3rd world of America...."

I think the reason why the Midwest and East was so populous at the begining of the 20th century was because there were many navigable rivers in the area, it's where there was already a lot of settlement in the area from colonization.  Also imigration was a major factor in that part of the country at that time.  Another factor I think was resources such as coal and natural gas.

 

My question is, do you think it is possible for a resurgence of population?  What gets me is that The United States is experience major growth in arid lands, lands that are struggling already to supply water to their populations.  When will it stop?  I mean, do you think that the pumping of water from Lake Superior to Los Angeles will really happen?

 

I think this might have been touched on a little bit before, but does population growth spur economic/job growth or does economic/job growth spur population growth?

It's a feedback loop, but it starts with economic growth.  Economists call it the multiplier effect- businesses open, thus creating a need for services for the business and its employees, all of which brings more people to fill those jobs, thus creating economic growth, thus bringing more people, etc.  At the base of it though, there has to be some sort of exported good- industry, high level finance, high tech development, etc., that is bringing money into that area to start with.  At least that is the theory.

On a related, but happier note...

 

Cleveland and the surrounding areas seem to be adding jobs.  I've pasted in total employment in Cleveland city proper and the Cleveland MSA for the last few years along with the change between 2004 and 2005 and 2006 and 2005.  Note that this data isn't seasonally adjusted, so the safest comparison is to look at a month in one year vs. the same month in prior years. 

 

What you see is that around July of 2005 things started to get better, the city and region made very small but steady gains, with November being an aberration (and at least it wasn't job losses - in 2004, the typical month was 4000 lower than the year before).  In 2006, though the city and region have seen some pretty strong gains.  Maybe Cleveland's finally starting to see at least some of the job gains the rest of the country's been seeing for a year or two now.  Obviously we're not talking Phoneix-like growth, but at least we're seeing positive movement.

 

 

Cleveland City

            2003   2004   2005        2006   05 vs. 04  06 vs. 05

Jan 177,800 173,700 172,300 173,800 -1,400     1,500

Feb 178,700 174,500 173,000 176,200 -1,500     3,200

Mar 179,900 175,400 174,500                 -900

Apr 181,300 176,900 176,400                 -500

May 181,700 177,700 177,700                     0

June 183,100 179,100 179,000                 -100

July 184,400 181,100 181,200                   100

Aug 183,600 180,000 180,400                   400

Sep 180,500 176,800 177,200                   400

Oct 180,700 176,900 177,500                   600

Nov 180,600 177,300 177,000                 -300

Dec 178,900 175,200 175,400                   200

 

 

Cleveland MSA

                2003          2004          2005        2006    05 vs. 04    06 vs. 05

Jan 1,019,400    1,013,600    1,005,100    1,014,000    -8,500      8,900

Feb 1,025,700    1,018,000    1,009,100    1,028,100    -8,900    19,000

Mar 1,032,700    1,023,500    1,017,800                      -5,700

Apr 1,041,500    1,032,200    1,029,400                      -2,800

May 1,043,100    1,036,600    1,036,500                        -100

June 1,051,000    1,044,900    1,044,300                        -600

July 1,058,400    1,056,800    1,057,000                          200

Aug 1,052,500    1,050,300    1,052,300                        2,000

Sep 1,036,300    1,031,600    1,033,900                        2,300

Oct 1,037,300    1,032,300    1,035,300                        3,000

Nov 1,038,800    1,034,100    1,032,700                      -1,400

Dec 1,028,100    1,022,100    1,023,400                        1,300

 

 

 

The feedback loop also works when it comes to transportation and land use. Combine a transportation route, technological advances, some fortunate geography and a resource and/or product people want or need, and a city grows.

 

Consider the two situations which made Cleveland a major city and ponder how some new, but basically similar ideas might inject new life into the region today:

 

1. In the early 1800s, East Coast merchants wanted to tap the vast mineral and agricultural resources of the nation's interior. But water was the most prominent form of transportation at the time, thus any place that wasn't near a navigable waterway was left behind economically. Transporting goods and resources from the nation's interior to East Coast cities and ports meant using stagecoaches, which cost $125 per ton in 1820. That led to the construction of the Erie Canal, which opened up the Great Lakes to commercial opportunities. But Ohio wanted places inland from the Great Lakes to enjoy such access and growth, leading first to the construction of the Ohio & Erie Canal. Cleveland was chosen as as the lake port for the Ohio & Erie Canal due to the efforts of Alfred Kelley – Cleveland’s first village president in 1815 and chairman of the State Canal Commission. Had Ohio’s first canal reached Lake Erie at a different location, Cleveland wouldn’t have grown into the major city it is today. The interior of a nation rich in agricultural and natural resources was suddenly opened for business thanks to the two canals, as shipping rates to and from the East Coast were lowered to just $25 per ton. Cleveland's population skyrocketed from 500 residents to more than 17,000 in just 15 years. It was Ohio’s earliest example of governmental funding being used to attract private investment and commerce. At $41 million, the state’s expenditure in the canal nearly bankrupted the fledgling state, but the public investment was returned many times over by economic growth.

 

2. Consider the next phase of evolution of Cleveland, beginning during the Civil War. Two events led to this evolution -- the invention of the Bessemer process of steelmaking in 1856 (with the first Bessemer steel plant in 1865) and the discovery of oil in western Pennsylvania in 1859. Any city near the oil fields of Western Pennsylvania could have become a center for processing and distributing this new resource. But it was a Cleveland resident who seized the opportunity, using vision and hard-nosed business tactics to make his Cleveland-based business the focus of the nation's oil industry. That of course was John Rockefeller's Standard Oil, who used the new railroads (and got rebates from them) for bringing oil to his Cleveland refineries. For steel, Cleveland's geography and its transportation resources were even more prominent. The city sat midway between the Mesabi Iron Ore Range (discovered in 1887) in northeastern Minnesota and the coal fields of Pennsylvania, southern Ohio and West Virginia. Great Lakes shipping and railroads combined the ingredients at Cleveland, making it the nation's third-largest steel producing center.

 

Those were unique circumstances, in which a new technology required specific resources found in specific locations, where transportation routes (natural and man-made) and entrepreneurial aggressiveness brought them together to create wealth. And, of course, people are drawn to wealth.

 

So what recent or possibly pending advances might make Ohio (and my city of Cleveland) uniquely positioned to benefit from them for purposes of creating wealth? Is it our access to one of, if not the largest sources of fresh water in the world? That's great for making hydrogen. Is it the rich, moist farmland we possess? Using our still-abundant coal deposits for liquefaction into oil?

 

What other things do we have here that the rest of the nation and the world wants? What are not seeing and, thus, allowing to lay untapped? That can include non-natural resource assets, including health care for a nation of aging citizens, NASA for technology transfer benefits (ie: more efficient power systems) or other assets which we have but few other cities or regions offer.

 

Put your thinking caps on. Remember, the Bessemer process was just an idea, and one that took nine years before it was accepted in a commercial application. And everyone though Col. Drake was an idiot for poking a well into the ground to look for oil. Everyone knew that oil came from whales, not from Drake's Folly!

^^

The events that you outline both show the effect of the manufacturing industry revolution on the growth of Cleveland.  For those who are not familiar with "The Rise of the Creative Class", Richard Florida proposes that the cities most poised for major growth in the current economic/political/social climate are those that are on the verge of a "creative" industry revolution.  Its definitely worth reading for those who haven't.

 

I believe it reinforces the statement you made towards the end of your post regarding "non-natural resource assets", and I would add to your list any research-based industries connected with Case Western, the medical community, etc...

 

 

Very true, but we still need to make things. And not everyone is bright and creative. Some folks just need a good-paying job, which is the best social program ever invented.

Having come from the South, I would like to offer up an observation regarding "job growth."  From what I was able to gather from the 3 years that I lived in metro-Atlanta, a lot of this "job growth" was in the form of low-wage service sector job (retail, restaurants, hospitality, etc.).  It was astonishing the number of fast food restaurants and strip malls that were going up.  Also, houses are going up left and right and this is further driving the economy in metro-Atlanta.  At this time, metro-Atlanta is reeling from varying factors:

 

1) The tentative closures of military bases (if I am not mistaken, all of the bases proposed for closing in the metro-area will indeed close--I think);

 

2) Georgia Pacific was bought out in a merger and has left the state of Georgia (though I am not sure if this was a metro-Atlanta company)

 

3) The merger of BellSouth and AT&T.  The headquarters will remain in San Antonio, TX.  BellSouth was Atlanta's largest corporation.

 

4) The State Department of Corrections will be moving out of Atlanta to Forsyth, Georgia (central Georgia region).  The reasoning behind this move is that most of the 128 state prisons are in South Georgia and that it makes sense from a fiscal standpoint to place this headquarters in Forsyth rather than in the city.  This move should create 200 new positions and save millions of dollars a year.  Atlanta (metro-Atlanta) will lose a lot of white-collar jobs.

 

5) The closure of the Hapeville Ford Motor Assembly plant and the closure of the Doraville GM plant.

 

Besides the occasional economic coup, the new Kia plant,  Georgia is really in a tailspin.  The metro-area is oversaturated with college-educated individuals and a limited number of decent paying jobs.  When I left in July 2008 (even before the loss or potential loss, of professional white collar jobs) the competition for jobs were fierce.  I can only imagine the circus-like atmosphere that has been created due to such substantial job losses.

How are all of these low wage jobs earning people able to afford the new 200k+ houses that are going up?

Having come from the South, I would like to offer up an observation regarding "job growth."  From what I was able to gather from the 3 years that I lived in metro-Atlanta, a lot of this "job growth" was in the form of low-wage service sector job (retail, restaurants, hospitality, etc.).  It was astonishing the number of fast food restaurants and strip malls that were going up.  Also, houses are going up left and right and this is further driving the economy in metro-Atlanta.  At this time, metro-Atlanta is reeling from varying factors:

 

1) The tentative closures of military bases (if I am not mistaken, all of the bases proposed for closing in the metro-area will indeed close--I think);

 

2) Georgia Pacific was bought out in a merger and has left the state of Georgia (though I am not sure if this was a metro-Atlanta company)

 

3) The merger of BellSouth and AT&T.  The headquarters will remain in San Antonio, TX.  BellSouth was Atlanta's largest corporation.

 

4) The State Department of Corrections will be moving out of Atlanta to Forsyth, Georgia (central Georgia region).  The reasoning behind this move is that most of the 128 state prisons are in South Georgia and that it makes sense from a fiscal standpoint to place this headquarters in Forsyth rather than in the city.  This move should create 200 new positions and save millions of dollars a year.  Atlanta (metro-Atlanta) will lose a lot of white-collar jobs.

 

5) The closure of the Hapeville Ford Motor Assembly plant and the closure of the Doraville GM plant.

 

Besides the occasional economic coup, the new Kia plant,  Georgia is really in a tailspin.  The metro-area is oversaturated with college-educated individuals and a limited number of decent paying jobs.  When I left in July 2008 (even before the loss or potential loss, of professional white collar jobs) the competition for jobs were fierce.  I can only imagine the circus-like atmosphere that has been created due to such substantial job losses.

 

thank you columbus girl.  I've said it time and time again.  The grass isn't always greener.  ATL has a reputation of being "fun and young" but when you're there it lacks - for me - the urban energy cleveland has.

 

In addition, with Delta hurting (and hopefully going under) and CNN/Turner slowly shift operations north (oppsss...did I let that slip out??) Atlanta like many of the "newer cities" will start to feel the pain.

 

I was just in atlanta on business and ran into 2 couples from NEOhio.  One couple was from Shaker and one couple was from Chagrin Falls.  I ran into the couple in shaker while having cocktails with friends, the first thing out of the womans mouth is how "backwards" the city is, laughed at their atlantic station project (ie..there version of crocker park) & how dead ATL's downtown is.  Mind you we didnt see a person on the street at 2PM, except homeless men.

 

The next day a buddy of mine (from cleve. hts.) and I talking to a couple from Chagrin Falls at a restaurant in midtown, which was practically empty on a saturday at 1PM.  This couple relocated to cobb county.  The husband works for HomeDepot and he didn't have a choice.  they marvelled at how much home they got compared to what they had in Chagrin Falls, but thats where the compliments stop.  The wife is a school teacher - who worked in the cleveland public school system and said she's never dealt with students like the kids in ATL.  They also mentioned nobody walked and how DANGEROUS the downtown and midtown area's of ATL are.  The wife said they would ride into cleveland for long weekends and go to RRHoF, Tremont, the flats or do various activities and like the park system we have.   They liked that we had cool, colective neighborhoods that we unique.  The husband (who must be friends with blinky) said he really wanted to move into the China Town area as their kids is off to college in the fall and a loft there would have been what he and his wife were looking for.  Right before they came to lunch they went to ATLs High Museum...the husband said it was definitely a "low" compared to the CMA and regrets not spending more time at the CMA before it closed for the expansion.  On the few occasions they've mentioned to their neighbors that they would be coming into DT Atlanta their neighbors advise them not to, because it was so dangerous and "black".   However, because they've always enjoyed "city life" in cleveland, they come into DT atlanta anyway, but they said they feel like they are coming into a black hole.  and get this....they miss the lake!!

 

These are just two examples why we need the business development folks recently hired and an intergrated marketing strategy. 

 

Cleveland can compete with any city out there.....it's just that nobody knows we're here and what great things we have to offer!  On a statewide level Ohio needs the to do the same thing.

usualfire,

 

Have you ever heard of middle-class poverty....or even, living above and beyond your means?

 

I have been on the insides of these unfurnished, empty pantry, 2 SUV's in the 2 car garage homes.  I will say it again, Atlanta is a very pretentious place.  People base their existence around what they do (having a fancy title and low pay--which is the reality--while claiming to have it all).  I personally know people that work in these fancy law firms and are only pulling in 7-8 dollars an hour as receptionists, clerks, researchers and the like.  Yet, because they work at a law firm, they put on airs of success.  It is an illusion and I naively fell for it at one time.  For three exhausting years, I lived with the flow of Atlanta and all of its allure.  Now that I am in slow-paced Ohio (with my competitive salary and low cost of living) I can't see myself going back to Georgia and working like a mule to keep up an image.  Trust me, I know plenty of people (I worked with them) that had 200K+ homes and were only making 30K a year.  That is considered a "good" salary in a place where the rent for a decent apartment starts at 750+ a month (and that's not even rent for a luxury apartment which would fetch a whole lot more).  Also, I am sure that you have heard of "interest only mortgages" which is why metro-Atlanta (and Atlanta) has one of the worst foreclosure rates in the country.  Just go and see for yourself.  It is a very peculiar place and one that I am happy to have exited.  I only need one job to make it in Ohio.  Just ONE.  Not two...three...plus four or five hustles.  Just ONE.  That means a whole lot more to me than living in HOTlanta.

Columbus Girl.......YOU!  I LIKE!  8-)

 

How are all of these low wage jobs earning people able to afford the new 200k+ houses that are going up?

 

they will give anyone a mortgage in ATL, when I was there they had a series about mortgage theft.  One family had been paying a "mortgage" on a house they "thought" they owned.

 

 

Atlanta is not where the growth is.

 

Mississippi, Alabama, Texas is where all the growth, especially in the industry I know, automotive, is going.

 

When I worked in MS, it was thrown around that the new Nissan plant generated 25,000 jobs and with all of the new supplier plants and the Nissan plant itself it was something like a 3 billion dollar investment. 

If you want to find a crap load of McMansions around manmade lakes, try Madison County MS.

 

Now, Alabama has the Mercedes plant, and the Hyundai plant.  Texas will be home the the new Toyota truck plant, a huge investment. 

VW and Kia are looking for a plant in the states, guess where they are looking?

 

With Delphi and my company Tower and soon Dana in bankruptcy and asking judges to throw out contracts something will have to give.  Either the UAW will be broken, and completely reformed or all automotive manufacturing within the next 20 years will be non-union employees.

Literally the fork in the road will happen this week.  Stay tuned.

 

The point of my rambling is this: people underestimate the south.  If it is allowed to grow unchallenged from communities up north, it will be the heart of manufacturing, and middle class wealth, in the country.

And for the record, having Dennis Kucinich leading a march against greedy corporations is not what I consider challenging the south for manufacturing jobs.

Manufacturing jobs are going South where wages have historically been lower.  The Northern and Midwestern cities that are experiencing growth are adding more high-tech, higher wage jobs.  The only people "impressed" with this so-called "growth" in the South are the less educated manufacturing workers who have historically relied upon such employment as a path to become middle-class earners (not meaning to come off snooty or anything).  The Midwest simply needs to get over its "industrial heritage" and forge ahead with "up-to-date" employment opportunities (research and development, engineering, business services, healthcare, etc.).  The South is merely the "flava of da day."  Not ragging on my birthplace.  However, we have always tended to be 50 years behind innovation (hence, Atlanta/Georgia officials always attempting to lure struggling rustbelt corporations).  Therefore, nothing to "underestimate."  If anything, the South, with its traditional low wages, will transform what this country considers middle-class.  But let's get real here.  I am convinced, only because of the line of work that I was in while in still in Georgia, that a lot of uneducated/undereducated, low skill individuals are jumping ship to the South as opposed to your traditional educated, middle-class wage earner.  The South is being saturated with individuals that have contributed to the socio-economic decline of many Northern/Midwestern cities--on top of the same problems that were already apparent.   The South is not willing (nor financially able) to take on this responsibility (hence the immigration bills that are being rushed through the legislation in Georgia and other Southern states).  As a child, I remember being taught that Northern/Midwestern cities were big, dirty, crowded, crime-infested, and most of the people were poor (with "horrible" snowy weather).  The only "good thing" about the North/Midwest was that you made "a lot of money."     

The south is not getting struggling rust belt companies looking for cheaper labor, they are getting the powerhouse Asian and European companies.  These companies are transforming manufacturing and are building factories that are on the cutting edge of technology.  It is the plants up north that are 50 years behind.

 

Asian companies, from my experience, do not like American unions not because of wages, but because of politics.  They fear that a strike could happen simply because a union leader had an ax to grind.  Obviously this is unfounded, but they have that fear, that is why they will never build north of Marysville.

 

There is a perception outside of automotive that building in the south is some sort of fad that will quickly go away.  The only thing that is going away is manufacturing jobs in union areas.

So, now, what do we do with a generation of people going to our failing local public schools and will not be able to compete for high tech research and development type jobs.

 

If we let manufacturing slip away from the area, we will continue to separate into the wealthy and the underclass. 

 

I am sorry to get so fired up about this, but I had thought with all of the news about GM, Ford, Delphi, and the UAW people would start to realize how much is at stake, especially for North East Ohio.

Lets be honest here....ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY!!!  The south has cheaper land, cheaper labor, and hands off governments that are willing to let just about any project happen with very few checks to ensure proper growth and infrastructure guidelines are met.  The south is known for its sprawling developments, as are suburbs.  Suburbs are cheaper to develop and expand than the inner city or older suburbs, which is the reason for the outward expansion.  This same philosophy holds true for the nation as a whole.  It is cheaper to build massive plants and operations in the south than it is to develop in the midwest, east coast, or west coast.

 

Asian companies, in particular, are known for their cheap operations.  They are looking for the cheapest way to maintain their operations so that they can continue to low ball the American companies in the market.  And they absolutely want to get away from labor unions.  They dont want to have to supply their workers with the kind of perks that labor workers receive....it simply costs more.  Lets not knock the midwestern and northern cities for having established businesses with unions that support and care for their workers just because the south is low balling everyone else in order to attain these low balling companies.

 

Sorry...I dont normally like to rant and rave :|

Punch,

 

I will just say what a good friend of mine once said:  The South, particularly Atlanta, is nothing more than a bargain basement NYC. 

 

Almost forgot, Punch:  Toyota (I believe) will build a high-tech research and development facility outside of ANN ARBOR, MICHIGAN.  The pay is expected to be as much as $1,500.00 PER WEEK.   

I know the Toyota technical center in AA (trust me I REALLY tried to get in there.)  It  mostly will employ mostly UofM grads with Masters or Doctorate degrees as well as engineers from Asia.  The Center for Automotive Research at UofM is really second to none, and that is coming from a proud OSU grad.

Here again, it is a few jobs for highly skilled people.

 

Here is a link to what Alabama has been able to do in the past 10 years, 7 billion dollars of investment and 40,000 direct jobs, paying on average about $70,000 per year.  More plants are on the way.

 

Think how happy we would be if any of these companies came to Lorain. 

 

http://www.edpa.org/pdfs/Automotive%20Industry%20Profile.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unions have had their day and are no longer needed. The South has very good schools, jobs, etc...the North is being dragged down by unions and poor leadership.

The South has very good schools, jobs, etc...the North is being dragged down by unions and poor leadership.

 

First time I've heard the argument that the south has better schools.

"THE SOUTH HAS BETTER SCHOOLS"?????????....Care to back that up with some stats?

I don't know if that's true - especially in poorer states like Mississipi and Alabama - but it's obvious that wealthier areas have, on the average, better schools for various reasons i.e. stable community, job security, fewer union issues, possibly fewer state taxes, probably more stable families.  Since a lot of businesses are moving to southern states - the Carolinas, Texas for example, I would imagine they thus have better schools as they two clearly correlate with one-another. 

 

Last year, Newsweek reported the top public schools, and a number of the top ones are  from the South and Southwest.  The format is a bit screwy to copy and paste, so here's the link in case anyone is interested. 

 

http://www.newsweek.com/id/39380 

 

 

 

 

I vacation in South Carolina regularly and have read a number of articles about how poor their schools are.  My brother was thinking of moving down there and my sister in law did some research about education funding in South Carolina and college attendance and was very discouraged.

^Or that:)

Been there and done this obsession with moving south thing a loooong time ago...the novelty wears off and frankly....the south is  becoming one giant sprawl-burb destined for unsustainability... If it keeps up, you can kiss their river systems goodbye. And if that happens...it will eventually be the straw that breaks the camel's back....AND their economy too. And as Taylor said in the Planet of the Apes.."You can count on it Dr. Zaius."