Ultimate Air is suspending Cincinnati and Nashville---and all of their routes systemwide on the shuttle---til around Spring citing pandemic impacts to their business.

 

https://ultimateairshuttle.com/

Big influx of money to Hopkins, Akron-Canton, the County airport, Burke, and a few smaller regional ones I hadn't even heard of.

 

I'm sure we would have to give the Burke money back if we switch to another use, but with more money going to ALL the surrounding airports, could this be a golden opportunity?

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2021/12/ohio-airports-including-cleveland-hopkins-will-fly-high-on-money-from-infrastructure-deal.html

4 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said:

Big influx of money to Hopkins, Akron-Canton, the County airport, Burke, and a few smaller regional ones I hadn't even heard of.

 

I'm sure we would have to give the Burke money back if we switch to another use, but with more money going to ALL the surrounding airports, could this be a golden opportunity?

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2021/12/ohio-airports-including-cleveland-hopkins-will-fly-high-on-money-from-infrastructure-deal.html

If I were Justin Bibb, I would be looking for economic development activity in one of America's poorest cities.   There is nearly a mile of taxiway access down the marginal with undeveloped land, ready for aviation-related businesses to plant roots (at one of the nation's few airports located in a central business district).   

 

CGF has already done an impressive job with the growth of Flexjet on their property.   It's time for Cleveland to look for similar opportunities, as  we are <1 hour flight time to the majority of the North American population.  

I think if Burke was so enticing, we would have seen something, rather than nothing.

4 minutes ago, X said:

I think if Burke was so enticing, we would have seen something, rather than nothing.

 

It's no secret that the City of Cleveland are not ideal landlords or business partners.   They can't even manage a market of food vendors, let alone a downtown reliever airport.   Burke isn't going anywhere soon due to the FAA and landfill under the runways.   I do hope Mr Bibb can change the culture of the City of Cleveland.  Let's make lemonade!  

18 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

It's no secret that the City of Cleveland are not ideal landlords or business partners.   They can't even manage a market of food vendors, let alone a downtown reliever airport.   Burke isn't going anywhere soon due to the FAA and landfill under the runways.   I do hope Mr Bibb can change the culture of the City of Cleveland.  Let's make lemonade!  

 

I don't see him as having the gumption to make that happen.   He's an idea guy, not an administrative change agent.   He would have been better off running for Congress.

Heading east, Burke's about where the cold winds off the lake start.   Great for planes, for development not so much.  Let alone residential.

29 minutes ago, X said:

I think if Burke was so enticing, we would have seen something, rather than nothing.

Enticing for what and to whom? A developer? With the amount of vacant land we have, why would any developer want to try to convince the city to sell land that is actively used as an airport so that maybe 10 years down the line, the developer could build on 5% of the land? So I agree building housing on Burke makes no sense.

 

The highest and best use for the land is a recreational public use. While I understand there are good arguments against closing Burke now that it already exists as an airport, it seems patently obvious (to me at least) that if the land were a mere blank slate, the best use would be as some sort of recreational public space, whether or not a park, per se. In other words, if Burke weren't currently used as an airport, nobody would suggest it should be.

 

So, I think the question should be "If Burke could feasibly be converted to some sort of public use (Like, for instance, Piedmont Park in Atlanta, Zilker Park in Austin, Fairmount Park in Philadelphia), wouldn't we have seen something proposed by the city?" And the answer is NO, because the city has never given the idea a fair shake.

 

I get so passionate about this topic just because there are plenty of cities out there that have massive (greater than 100 acre) downtown parks, including Atlanta, Austin, Philadelphia, NYC, Chicago, Milwaukee, Buffalo, and San Diego. Doing something else with Burke is our only chance to join those ranks and have such a park. (Irishtown Bend will be AMAZING, but it's only 25 acres and won't have the same sort of impact a 450-acre park would.) So before that ship sails forever, I'd like to see an unbiased, open-minded analysis that concludes NO, closing Burke would hurt the city. If that's the case, then so be it.

I wouldn't be against a substantial portion of Burke being a park, but 450 acres is huge.  There's room to do a massive park there and still do much else besides.  Burke is almost the size of Downtown proper.

4 minutes ago, X said:

I wouldn't be against a substantial portion of Burke being a park, but 450 acres is huge.  There's room to do a massive park there and still do much else besides.  Burke is almost the size of Downtown proper.

If Deadman's Curve is ever fixed, I believe they will need to acquire some of the Burke property.

11 minutes ago, X said:

I wouldn't be against a substantial portion of Burke being a park, but 450 acres is huge.  There's room to do a massive park there and still do much else besides.  Burke is almost the size of Downtown proper.

I'd be up for that as well. 450 acres is huge, but it's less than a quarter the size of Fairmount Park in Philadelphia, a third the size of Lincoln Park in Chicago, less than half the size of Balboa Park in San Diego, half the size of Central Park in NYC, and about a third larger than Piedmont Park in Atlanta. In other words, sure you don't have to allocate all the land to a park, but even if you do, you're not talking about a park of unprecedented size. Most of those parks have multiple uses such as zoos, museums, golf courses, etc.

 

To get the powers that be to support turning Burke into a park, maybe all we have to do is suggest the park include 9 holes. 😉

35 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

If Deadman's Curve is ever fixed, I believe they will need to acquire some of the Burke property.

I believe to plans for Deadman's Curve is to make it more gradual, but the east-west portion of the Shoreway will stay the same.  That is why the support tower for the power lines on the east side of the curve has been set so far back from the current highway alignment.  The west side is much closer. 

Scroll to the bottom of this page:

 

https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KBKL

 

and you will find a graph of aircraft movememts at Burke.  Current usage (January and February) is close to what is was in pre-Covid 2020.  NBA ASG traffic, of course, gave the very latest numbers a nice boost.  

And the discussion continues...

 

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2022/03/should-clevelands-burke-lakefront-airport-be-closed-local-leaders-are-starting-to-discuss-the-possibility.html

13 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

And the discussion continues...

 

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2022/03/should-clevelands-burke-lakefront-airport-be-closed-local-leaders-are-starting-to-discuss-the-possibility.html

 

 

This is the bit I found most interesting.

Quote

The future of Burke isn’t the only airport-related topic that leaders plan to discuss. Potentially even more controversial: The possibility of moving oversight of Hopkins and Burke, both owned by the city, and the county-owned Cuyahoga County Airport in Richmond Heights, to a more regional governance structure. One alternative might include transferring ownership of the airports to the port authority, for example.

 

Not that I think that Hopkins is poorly run, but it seems like the Port is very well run so rolling airport operations into the Port could be beneficial. Especially given that Hopkin handles cargo also already. More importantly, combining the three airports under one umbrella would provide for coordination between the three to maximize their benefit to the region. 

 

Assuming getting rid of Burke is the ultimate goal, having all three airports under the control of one entity would allow for the gradual expansion of the County airport to act as a reliever in place of Burke, assuming the availability of land surrounding the airport. It would also allow for the transition of services from Burke, and maybe even potentially pulling some from Hopkins freeing up capacity there -- thinking some cargo flights given the distribution centers located on the east side. 

 

But my knowledge of airport operations is very limited, so none of this may be practical.  

On 12/16/2021 at 5:00 PM, LlamaLawyer said:

I'd be up for that as well. 450 acres is huge, but it's less than a quarter the size of Fairmount Park in Philadelphia, a third the size of Lincoln Park in Chicago, less than half the size of Balboa Park in San Diego, half the size of Central Park in NYC, and about a third larger than Piedmont Park in Atlanta. In other words, sure you don't have to allocate all the land to a park, but even if you do, you're not talking about a park of unprecedented size. Most of those parks have multiple uses such as zoos, museums, golf courses, etc.

 

To get the powers that be to support turning Burke into a park, maybe all we have to do is suggest the park include 9 holes. 😉

Interesting take in this information.  It would be a huge undertaking, but it would be a cool concept to move the Cleveland Zoo to the burke area.  It is already double the land area and you could really expand.  It would be much easier to access, and the old zoo could be repurposed.

14 hours ago, cfdwarrior said:

Interesting take in this information.  It would be a huge undertaking, but it would be a cool concept to move the Cleveland Zoo to the burke area.  It is already double the land area and you could really expand.  It would be much easier to access, and the old zoo could be repurposed.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that Burke was built on very very toxic landfill.   In speaking to one of the maintenance guys down there, he told me if you try to dig a hole very deep a brown sludge starts oozing up. 

Why you guys in Cleveland so gungho to close that airport? Its a functioning airport. We have three airports in Columbus. Even Akron has two airports. Is Cleveland really giving up being a major city?

13 minutes ago, jcw92 said:

Why you guys in Cleveland so gungho to close that airport? Its a functioning airport. We have three airports in Columbus. Even Akron has two airports. Is Cleveland really giving up being a major city?

 

There is still Lost Nation and Cuyahoga County Airport - not to mention Hopkins - to service charter flights.

 

Though, to your point, Chicago closed their lakefront airport and immediately surrendered their "big city status"

5 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

There is still Lost Nation an Cuyahoga County Airport - not to mention Hopkins - to service charter flights.

 

Though, to your point, Chicago closed their lakefront airport and immediately surrendered their "big city status"

 

I just looked up those two little airports. They're tiny. No way a 737 is landing there or taking off from there.

 

Chicago did NOT close their secondary airport. Midway is still open today. Burke is like Midway, but maybe Burke has longer runways. That tiny airport that chicago closed was tiny--theres no way a 737 could have landed there.

16 minutes ago, jcw92 said:

 

I just looked up those two little airports. They're tiny. No way a 737 is landing there or taking off from there.

 

Chicago did NOT close their secondary airport. Midway is still open today. Burke is like Midway, but maybe Burke has longer runways. That tiny airport that chicago closed was tiny--theres no way a 737 could have landed there.

Chicago Executive (PKW) also.  Pre-Covid, Ultimate Shuttle was contemplating service from Burke to PKW.

25 minutes ago, jcw92 said:

Why you guys in Cleveland so gungho to close that airport? Its a functioning airport. We have three airports in Columbus. Even Akron has two airports. Is Cleveland really giving up being a major city?

Because it is an under-utilized airport occupying a large piece of downtown lakefront property.  Hopkins isn't exactly bursting at the seams. Nor is Canton-Akron.  They can both handle more traffic as well as Lost Nation and Cuyahoga County for smaller aircraft.

CAK and Hopkins are 50 minutes apart, to think of Cleveland and Akron as separate markets is kind of strange. So to your point the Cleveland-Akron area has Hopkins, Burke, Akron-Canton, and Akron Fulton airports servicing the area. I think we will be just fine without Burke. 

44 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

CAK and Hopkins are 50 minutes apart, to think of Cleveland and Akron as separate markets is kind of strange. So to your point the Cleveland-Akron area has Hopkins, Burke, Akron-Canton, and Akron Fulton airports servicing the area. I think we will be just fine without Burke. 

I'm not sold on closing Burke being some kind of game-changer for Cleveland.  But I do see value in better coordination between the airports in the region and their role -- whether it's freight, commercial aviation, private aviation, instruction, etc.

 

CAK and Hopkins would operate much better if connected by rail.  CAK is 45 minutes from downtown Cleveland on a Saturday, but up to an hour (or more) during rush hour (and it's unpredictable). And really, who wants to drive for approximately an hour after a long flight anyway?  If we had a train between the two you could leverage some big parking garages for a more consistent and easy transfer/park-n-fly that would vastly increase the population willing to use each airport.  If given the choice and limited funds, I'd build that rail line before closing Burke.

30 minutes ago, Foraker said:

I'm not sold on closing Burke being some kind of game-changer for Cleveland.  But I do see value in better coordination between the airports in the region and their role -- whether it's freight, commercial aviation, private aviation, instruction, etc.

 

CAK and Hopkins would operate much better if connected by rail.  CAK is 45 minutes from downtown Cleveland on a Saturday, but up to an hour (or more) during rush hour (and it's unpredictable). And really, who wants to drive for approximately an hour after a long flight anyway?  If we had a train between the two you could leverage some big parking garages for a more consistent and easy transfer/park-n-fly that would vastly increase the population willing to use each airport.  If given the choice and limited funds, I'd build that rail line before closing Burke.

 

I love your idea in theory - but I think CAK and CLE still compete for too many regional flights (especially to SC, GA, and FL) for either to be willing to invest in such an idea. 

One of the key functions of Burke that  everyone is leaving out here is it's role as base for the Cleveland Clinic air ambulance division (both fixed and rotary wing).  

 

So if Cleveland is trying to remake itself as a healthcare hub for the nation, there is no better place to start than BKL.  

 

I've said this many times up-thread, but with BKL we have something that no other major market in the country has now--a class D airport with instrument procedures located directly in the central business district (Kansas City is the only city I can think of with a similar setup--with KMKC located across the river from the CBD). 

 

Any discussions of future parkland should also weigh this economic benefit, and what the airport might become if the City of Cleveland hired an outside contractor and proactively starting marketing and developing partnerships for Burke, rather than it's usual reactive sit-on-their hands tactics.  

 

 

 

31 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

I love your idea in theory - but I think CAK and CLE still compete for too many regional flights (especially to SC, GA, and FL) for either to be willing to invest in such an idea. 

This could me mitigated by transferring the airports (CAK and CLE) to a port authority to operate them in a complementary manner rather than competitive manner.  

1 hour ago, freefourur said:

This could me mitigated by transferring the airports (CAK and CLE) to a port authority to operate them in a complementary manner rather than competitive manner.  

If the Cleveland Port Authority is legally permitted to extend its reach to CAK.... but I agree that it would benefit all the airports to work together.  I expect there could be advantages to having the big alliance airlines operating out of Hopkins and the smaller-jets-only regional airlines operating out of CAK.

Edited April 4, 20223 yr by Foraker

22 hours ago, cfdwarrior said:

Interesting take in this information.  It would be a huge undertaking, but it would be a cool concept to move the Cleveland Zoo to the burke area.  It is already double the land area and you could really expand.  It would be much easier to access, and the old zoo could be repurposed.

The moving of the zoo would never happen.  In the last several years, they have expanded and added new habitats.  They just formally announced a huge expansion of the Rain Forest which was underway for quite a while before the announcement.  Too many improvements and money spent for a relocation to ever happen.

6 hours ago, jcw92 said:

 

I just looked up those two little airports. They're tiny. No way a 737 is landing there or taking off from there.

 

Chicago did NOT close their secondary airport. Midway is still open today. Burke is like Midway, but maybe Burke has longer runways. That tiny airport that chicago closed was tiny--theres no way a 737 could have landed there.

The only runway at Cuyahoga County Airport and the longer of the two at Lost Nation Airport are both over a thousand feet shorter than the main runway at Burke; in fact they are shorter than Burke's other runway.  At least a decade ago, there were plans to expand Cuyahoga County Airport's runway to handle larger aircraft and expand bad weather operations.  It would have meant re-routing both Richmond and Bishop Roads.  All of the surrounding communities were strongly against any runway expansion.  The runoff area near Richmond Road was a safety feature that came about when the runway could not be expanded.  Furthermore, there are flight operations limitations when the airport cannot be normally used (11:00 pm to 7:00 am)

6 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

The only runway at Cuyahoga County Airport and the longer of the two at Lost Nation Airport are both over a thousand feet shorter than the main runway at Burke; in fact they are shorter than Burke's other runway.  At least a decade ago, there were plans to expand Cuyahoga County Airport's runway to handle larger aircraft and expand bad weather operations.  It would have meant re-routing both Richmond and Bishop Roads.  All of the surrounding communities were strongly against any runway expansion.  The runoff area near Richmond Road was a safety feature that came about when the runway could not be expanded.  Furthermore, there are flight operations limitations when the airport cannot be normally used (11:00 pm to 7:00 am)

In addition Lake County Executive (it's no longer Lost Nation) does not have any precision instrument approach procedures (meaning it's minimums for weather are higher than an airport with a precision approach).  

 

Cuyahoga County does have a precision with ILS 24, but as you mentioned the NIMBY's were out in full force years ago when there was talk of runway expansion.  My ex wife was one of them as she lived off White Rd on the approach end of 24.  

29 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

In addition Lake County Executive (it's no longer Lost Nation) does not have any precision instrument approach procedures (meaning it's minimums for weather are higher than an airport with a precision approach).  

 

Cuyahoga County does have a precision with ILS 24, but as you mentioned the NIMBY's were out in full force years ago when there was talk of runway expansion.  My ex wife was one of them as she lived off White Rd on the approach end of 24.  

Lake County Executive (though to many, it will always be Lost Nation) doesn't even have a tower.  As for the people protesting any expansion of Cuyahoga County Airport's runway, who could blame them?  Off of White Road, a plane came down well short of the runway, though fortunately there were no fatalities.  On Bishop Road, there is a foundation of a house that was destroyed, killing the residents and anybody in the aircraft when it crashed near the runway.  On Highland Road, a twin engine aircraft lost one engine shortly after takeoff to the southwest.  Either due to the lack of the engine causing it to veer sharply to the left or the pilot trying to return for an emergency landing, despite the pilot's efforts, it crashed into the deep back yards and missed hitting any houses.  Through the pilot's actions, he was able to miss the houses and avoid any other loss of life.  There were a number of houses removed from Richmond Road, but the Scottish Highlands subdivision is not that far away.  When those expansion plans were announced, at least one house in Scottish Highlands was going to be demolished to expand the clear zone.  That airport is an area with a lot of houses.  These types of incidents tend to not sit well with residents.  

15 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

The only runway at Cuyahoga County Airport and the longer of the two at Lost Nation Airport are both over a thousand feet shorter than the main runway at Burke; in fact they are shorter than Burke's other runway. 

I wonder what percentage of private aviation needs the longer runway that Burke offers?  I'm guessing not much, probably just the occasional bigwig that wants to fly in on a larger aircraft.  

18 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I wonder what percentage of private aviation needs the longer runway that Burke offers?  I'm guessing not much, probably just the occasional bigwig that wants to fly in on a larger aircraft.  

Longer and wider runways mean more safety for all aircraft, regardless of your socio-economic position.  

1 hour ago, Cleburger said:

Longer and wider runways mean more safety for all aircraft, regardless of your socio-economic position.  

 

Ah yes, it increases safety for all the hoi-poloi flying in and out in their private planes and charters.

 

Let's face it, Burke only makes sense if you think the best use for Downtown Lakefront land is as a lightly used airport for executive use.  The fact that other cities don't have airports downtown should tell you something about how good of a land use they are for dense urban areas in general, let alone for urban waterfronts.

5 minutes ago, X said:

Ah yes, it increases safety for all the hoi-poloi flying in and out in their private planes and charters.

As well as the transplant patients flying into the Clinic, or time sensitive crucial live organ and tissue shipments.   And me, of course.   I use(d) the airport both as a student pilot, a private pilot and as a paying customer on Ultimate Air (as have thousands of others).  I'm hardly a 1% jet setter.  

 

7 minutes ago, X said:

Let's face it, Burke only makes sense if you think the best use for Downtown Lakefront land is as a lightly used airport for executive use.  The fact that other cities don't have airports downtown should tell you something about how good of a land use they are for dense urban areas in general, let alone for urban waterfronts.

 

Other cities likely didn't use their waterfront as a toxic landfill for generations.  

 

Despite my defense of the airport, like Mayor Bibb I believe it's worthy of a conversation.  But I'm just being realistic.  450 acres on landfill in Cleveland is going to take generations to develop in a city where we have a hard time filling in a surface parking lot near the water. 

 

In the meantime, I believe we should be taking baby steps.   Let's make a greenway all the way around the outside of the airport property, to allow public access to the waterfront.   What little kid wouldn't want to go fishing with dad and watch airplanes land at the same time?   

 

 

11 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

As well as the transplant patients flying into the Clinic, or time sensitive crucial live organ and tissue shipments. 

I worked in this industry for a period of time, and the vast majority of organs and tissue fly in and out of Hopkins. Lifebanc, the County, and all of the hospitals in greater Cleveland send over 90% of their medical shipments (that aren’t driven) through Southwest, American, and United. Even Pittsburgh, Akron, and Toledo hospitals receive a great deal of their transplant shipments at Hopkins because CLE has a team for handling medical cargo that a lot of midwestern airports don’t have. I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen, I’m sure Burke gets an occasional charter plane for a heart or something, but the vast majority of transplants and tissue come through CLE. What shipments that do come through Burke could easily transfer over to the larger operation off the shore. 

8 minutes ago, ELaunder said:

I worked in this industry for a period of time, and the vast majority of organs and tissue fly in and out of Hopkins. Lifebanc, the County, and all of the hospitals in greater Cleveland send over 90% of their medical shipments (that aren’t driven) through Southwest, American, and United. Even Pittsburgh, Akron, and Toledo hospitals receive a great deal of their transplant shipments at Hopkins because CLE has a team for handling medical cargo that a lot of midwestern airports don’t have. I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen, I’m sure Burke gets an occasional charter plane for a heart or something, but the vast majority of transplants and tissue come through CLE. What shipments that do come through Burke could easily transfer over to the larger operation off the shore. 

You are correct.  There are certainly a fair share of organ shipments via commercial carriers, and even via UPS and Fedex. 

For actual living, breathing patients, the Clinic's  fixed-wing contractor is Aitheras Aviation which does their ambulance moves for critical care transport.  I can tell you from being at BKL that their planes are moving all the time.   They are in the hangar directly to the east of Signature Aviation. 

 

https://www.aagjet.com

 

The Clinic's rotary-wing critical transport group is based at Signature, the FBO just to the east of the terminal building. 

 

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/-/scassets/files/org/critical-care/critical-care-transport-brochure.pdf?la=en

 

 

 

 

This is a good history of Burke from 2002 and should be required reading for anyone considering redevelopment of Burke.  Interesting that some ideas for the property are nearly 40 years old.

 

Quote

A Waterfront Steering Committee issued a report in February 1985 recommending that the western part of Burke be developed for commercial or residential use, that the Airport be maintained, that a bike path be built on its perimeter, and that the eastern end be developed as a waterfront park.

(page 24)

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5c2537ef75f9ee31c78b2ae7/t/623b7db6399de47321faf86a/1648065975883/EcoCityCleveland-BurkeReport-2002.pdf

13 minutes ago, Foraker said:

This is a good history of Burke from 2002 and should be required reading for anyone considering redevelopment of Burke.  Interesting that some ideas for the property are nearly 40 years old.

 

(page 24)

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5c2537ef75f9ee31c78b2ae7/t/623b7db6399de47321faf86a/1648065975883/EcoCityCleveland-BurkeReport-2002.pdf

 

Do you have a link to the photos and maps the report cites to?

4 hours ago, ryanfrazier said:

Do you have a link to the photos and maps the report cites to?

No, all I have is that link.

And yet another study.  This is a "subscriber exclusive".

 

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022/04/city-funded-study-will-look-at-the-possibility-of-closing-clevelands-burke-lakefront-airport.html

18 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

And yet another study.  This is a "subscriber exclusive".

 

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022/04/city-funded-study-will-look-at-the-possibility-of-closing-clevelands-burke-lakefront-airport.html

 

A day after they publish a Letter to the Editor that "Clevelanders need to see all the relevant data on Burke airport before a decision to close it". We'll see if they put the actual study findings behind a paywall too...

 

https://www.cleveland.com/letters/2022/04/clevelanders-need-to-see-all-the-relevant-data-on-burke-airport-before-a-decision-to-close-it.html

I have got to get in this studies racket. For decades those consultants just make up and regurgitate the same sh*t and get paid. 

Right and quick reminder, the city owns the land and can do what they want with relatively low fines from the FAA as proven in Chicago:

“Chicago mayor Richard M. Daley forced the closing of Meigs in 2003 by ordering the overnight bulldozing of its runway without notice, in violation of Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regulations….. In the aftermath, the "Meigs Legacy provision" was passed into law, increasing the maximum fine per day from $1,100 to $10,000.”

Just some personal thoughts as someone that lives within view of Burke assuming it gets closed (as it should) I will miss seeing planes and helicopters come in throughout the day, seeing the random military aircraft come in, watching planes land overhead while at voinovich park, being able to watch the special landings of air force one and take offs of marine one, seeing the mass amount of private planes when big events come to the city, and the sense of multimodal transportation in the area at a given time you can have freighters trains and planes all appearing in the same shot and not to mention the air show experience all happening right on the lakefront.

But that land can ultimately be used for so much more to benefit the residents and visitors of this city. (Not to mention the lifted height restriction) The city should prep for the fine, prepare a demo plan, and a master plan should be created in coordination with developers.

1 hour ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

But that land can ultimately be used for so much more to benefit the residents and visitors of this city. (Not to mention the lifted height restriction) The city should prep for the fine, prepare a demo plan, and a master plan should be created in coordination with developers.

And then what?   Call me pessimistic, but in a city that took 30+ years to develop a parking lot on it's main Public Square, I don't hold out much hope for 450 acres of toxic landfill behind the port break wall.   I fear the worst that we'll end up with a "gated community" type development (Like Buffalo's waterfront).  Or some cheap imitation of Chicago's Northerly Island with yet another concert venue, which ends up closing down another in a city that can't support multiple venues.   In our Urban Ohio SIM City Cleveland, it will immediately be filled with 50 apartment towers, but we all know that isn't going to happen..

 

Mayor Daley got his urban park by bulldozing Meigs, but that is in a city with far less precious greenspace.   Here in Cleveland we have acres of surface lots and entire urban prairies that have gone untouched.   It really feels like target on Burke's back is fueled by populist ire about "Rich people in their private jets,"  but the replacement may only serve the same.  In the meantime, Cleveland would lose an asset we have that other cities do not have, further hampering its efforts to return to early/mid 20th century glory.  

 

 

And then what?   Call me pessimistic, but in a city that took 30+ years to develop a parking lot on it's main Public Square, I don't hold out much hope for 450 acres of toxic landfill behind the port break wall.   I fear the worst that we'll end up with a "gated community" type development (Like Buffalo's waterfront).  Or some cheap imitation of Chicago's Northerly Island with yet a concert venue, which ends up closing down another in a city that can't support multiple venues.   In our Urban Ohio SIM City Cleveland, it will immediately be filled with 50 apartment towers, but we all know that isn't going to happen..
 
Mayor Daley got his urban park by bulldozing Meigs, but that is in a city with far less precious greenspace.   Here in Cleveland we have acres of surface lots and entire urban prairies that have gone untouched.   It really feels like target on Burke's back is fueled by populist ire about "Rich people in their private jets,"  but the replacement may only serve the same.  In the meantime, Cleveland would lose an asset we have that other cities do not have, further hampering its efforts to return to early/mid 20th century glory.  
 
 

I can sense an agree to disagree here, fundamentally we have hardly any public access to the lake behind a break wall or not this is a massive opportunity to effectively start from scratch. Aside from the parking lots around the browns stadium (which possibly could have had development start if the Harlem’s didn’t claim it away from the previous developer albeit for the better) I can’t think of any undeveloped portion of lakefront land on Lake Erie in Cuyahoga country or the immediate surrounding counties, everything is either industrial use, parks, apartment towers, but a overwhelming majority being peoples backyards.

In this climate gated communities would for certain not happen and would be counterintuitive to to issue that’s trying to be resolved, worst case in my mind is the entire thing turns into a park with no other activation or pull of a population by creating a new district.


"The perception that Burke is built on a garbage dump and cannot be used for anything else is a public misperception that refuses to go away," says Ted Esborn, a Cleveland attorney who worked in the city's law and health department in the '80s and '90s.

Only a small portion of the (20-30 acres of the 450 acres) land WAS used as a dump but even then the EPA hasn’t considered it any type of threat, the rest of the airport is clean dredged material.

2 hours ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

But that land can ultimately be used for so much more to benefit the residents and visitors of this city.

 

Maybe it can, but it won't.

 

2 hours ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

The city should prep for the fine, prepare a demo plan, and a master plan should be created in coordination with developers.

 

And be left with a giant empty plot of land on the lakefront where garbage and mattresses will be dumped and will end up costing the city millions per year to "maintain".

 

So you ultimately want to replace an existing airport with a master plan.

Generally I’m in the “the actual results of closing Burke wouldn’t be nearly as good as people claim” camp, but Councilor Kerry makes a good point here - since Burke runs deficits, that adds costs to Hopkins (since it’s one budget), which makes the latter more expensive to fly out of and therefore less competitive. Honestly one of the strongest points for closing it that I’ve seen yet. (The biggest is of course the direct access for the public to the lake.) 
 

(And I’m not agreeing w Jeff here - the reliever airport status is one of the most important functions, and that can NOT be picked up by County airport.)