April 30, 20223 yr 16 hours ago, BoomerangCleRes said: Right and quick reminder, the city owns the land and can do what they want with relatively low fines from the FAA as proven in Chicago: “Chicago mayor Richard M. Daley forced the closing of Meigs in 2003 by ordering the overnight bulldozing of its runway without notice, in violation of Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regulations….. In the aftermath, the "Meigs Legacy provision" was passed into law, increasing the maximum fine per day from $1,100 to $10,000.” That won't be the only cost. The city would also have to pay back the unamortized value of federally-funded improvements to runways, taxiways, and traffic control systems. I believe a couple of years ago the Jackson Administration estimated the cost at $40 million or so to pay this nut off. Burke's annual deficit (about $1.7 million pre-pandemic and not all cash) is insignificant compared to Hopkins positive cash flow (over $50 million in an average year). Edit: Sue Glaser reported that BKL's deficit was about $640K, which means it is probably cash-positive. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
April 30, 20223 yr Pennies in the bucket for the billions Jimmy and Dee will be extorting the city for that 9-game "competitive" stadium. Cleveland/Cuyahoga County seems to find money to subsidize the wealthy with unused medical marts, roads to nowhere, and stadiums; just include the $40 mill in the next package (and boy are a few coming up). Tell the airplanes to f off, then hand the land to the Metroparks so they can plant some greenery, install porta poddies here and there, hire trashcans, collectors, and security. For all that I can support a sin tax or however the city country would derive the needed funds -- and then just let people go there. Forget high end mixed use developments, water parks, CSU/Tri-C expansion, outlet malls, Ferrari dealerships, anything with conmen like B.S. (Bob Stark), and other longterm fantasies. Just give it to the public, and let us enjoy it as we would a scaled down Boston Commons, Central Park, Zilker Park, etc. See what happens organically. Maybe add an entrance fee to help with upkeep and security. No way Bibb has the balls or political clout to do what Daley did - and frankly that park is exceptionally underutilized with an enormous amount of erosion problems - but bless that man for the attempt. Also screw him for the parking meters scandal. Edited April 30, 20223 yr by TBideon
May 1, 20223 yr I respectfully disagree about not using the land for mixed use development. Lakefronts and lakefront access is something that is a luxury and isn’t available everywhere and it needs to be recognized as such. The land needs to be redesigned to be an extension of north coast harbor. It needs to be made into an overall attraction that will garner interest and traffic from tourist and residents with world class design. My ultimate vision would be something like District Wharf in Washington D.C (pictured above), containing a king boardwalk lined with residential and restaurants/shopping. If not this I would like to see something similar to the Navy Pier in Chicago. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
May 1, 20223 yr ^ Entertainment and recreational attractions, yes, but probably not residential as it Is unlikely multi-story buildings can be built there. Some suggestions include a marina, walking/biking trails, gardens (Donald Gray 2.0?), bocce ball, volleyball, ice rink, restaurants, beer gardens, a mini amusement park, maybe a nicer aquarium. Thete are lots of possibilities. If they ever get the funding to fix Dead Man's Curve (and fix it correctly) they will need to acquire a portion of Burke property to do so. And that might be easier to do if Burke is no longer an airport. Hopefully the city can start a dialogue with the FAA, if they have not already done so, about closing Burke eventually. Otherwise, if the FAA keeps pouring money in for airport upgrades, it will never happen. Edited May 1, 20223 yr by LibertyBlvd
May 16, 20223 yr I heard a story that I think everyone will find interesting... A friend of mine was at dinner with a group of people last week, one of whom discussed how there is currently a world-renowned golf course developer who is infatuated with Burke. His long term vision is to develop a championship-level golf course on the Eastern portion of the parcel, with the prospect of attracting PGA events to the venue, including majors. Supposedly, he'd like to develop a "First Tee" flagship charter school on the site as well, where kids of modest means could go to school ages K-8 during the day, and then will have a daily training session in the afternoon, with the cost of golf and transportation being funded through the academy. No info into the remainder of the space, but I thought that was a really cool idea. And, if developed, would be one of the most unique courses in the world. Again, I know a developer's pipe dream seldom turns into reality, but just thought I'd share.
May 16, 20223 yr ^ Interesting idea. I’ve never played golf in my life and know next to nothing about it, but with that wind whipping in off the lake, I’d imagine it would make for a challenging links course to rival those in the UK & Ireland that abut the Atlantic, Irish & North seas! My hovercraft is full of eels
May 16, 20223 yr 12 minutes ago, X said: Yeah, not a fan of giving that much of the Lakefront over to one specific use. I’d be comfortable with it if the Metroparks were involved in some capacity. But supposedly it would still leave something about nearly half of the current footprint for development. And to the point above - the idea would be for a links style course, similar to the British Isle and Whispering Straits in Wisconsin
May 16, 20223 yr Because why wouldn't we replace an "elitist airport" with a golf course and condos where poor kids from the city get to play on caddy day every third Tuesday in the summer? 😜 I suppose we could step it up and bring Trump in to put his name on the course. There would be something about a Trump course on landfill that would be on-brand.
May 16, 20223 yr 20 minutes ago, Cleburger said: Because why wouldn't we replace an "elitist airport" with a golf course and condos where poor kids from the city get to play on caddy day every third Tuesday in the summer? 😜 I suppose we could step it up and bring Trump in to put his name on the course. There would be something about a Trump course on landfill that would be on-brand. I thought the First Tee Academy was an incredible idea.
May 16, 20223 yr 7 minutes ago, YABO713 said: I thought the First Tee Academy was an incredible idea. Yeah I was being somewhat flippant of course. I haven't hidden the fact that I am a pilot who uses the airport, and would love to see it developed into an asset that the City of Cleveland can use to compete. I just get this sense that as soon as Cleveland closes BKL, flying cars or uber drones will become viable and cities will be rushing to build close-in airports, while Cleveland has a golf course... 🤦♂️
May 16, 20223 yr 16 minutes ago, Cleburger said: Yeah I was being somewhat flippant of course. I haven't hidden the fact that I am a pilot who uses the airport, and would love to see it developed into an asset that the City of Cleveland can use to compete. I just get this sense that as soon as Cleveland closes BKL, flying cars or uber drones will become viable and cities will be rushing to build close-in airports, while Cleveland has a golf course... 🤦♂️ Presumably for flying cars/uber drones to be viable they will have to operate without large-footprint, close-in airports though, no? Not a pilot and haven't done a lot of reading up on this myself so could be way off base here, but I would think for these to be a truly viable form of transit you would want several "airports" around town and any developed city wont have available land for these and so these airports will have to look and function much different than Burke does now. But, again, may have the wrong vision of how the flying car industry will actually function.
May 16, 20223 yr 1 hour ago, Luke_S said: Presumably for flying cars/uber drones to be viable they will have to operate without large-footprint, close-in airports though, no? Not a pilot and haven't done a lot of reading up on this myself so could be way off base here, but I would think for these to be a truly viable form of transit you would want several "airports" around town and any developed city wont have available land for these and so these airports will have to look and function much different than Burke does now. But, again, may have the wrong vision of how the flying car industry will actually function. Based on current FAA regulations regarding helicopters, in any urbanized area you can't just land wherever you want. Even medical helicopters get special clearance to establish a LZ on a highway etc for a medical trauma victim. So depending on how fast the technology moves with VTOL (Vertical take off/landing) cars and drones, we may still want established landing areas close to the city, as the FAA will take DECADES to change the FARs to adapt to this tech.
May 16, 20223 yr 2 minutes ago, Cleburger said: Based on current FAA regulations regarding helicopters, in any urbanized area you can't just land wherever you want. Even medical helicopters get special clearance to establish a LZ on a highway etc for a medical trauma victim. So depending on how fast the technology moves with VTOL (Vertical take off/landing) cars and drones, we may still want established landing areas close to the city, as the FAA will take DECADES to change the FARs to adapt to this tech. That makes sense, I guess my point was do we expect these vehicles to require the acreage of Burke to serve their landings and take offs? I hadn't considered the implications of flying cars on the use of Burke and it is intriguing and could position us to be a leader if the VTOL technology advances. Just wondering if it would maybe make sense to transition Burke to helipads instead of runways to open lakefront land to public use.
May 16, 20223 yr 2 minutes ago, Luke_S said: That makes sense, I guess my point was do we expect these vehicles to require the acreage of Burke to serve their landings and take offs? I hadn't considered the implications of flying cars on the use of Burke and it is intriguing and could position us to be a leader if the VTOL technology advances. Just wondering if it would maybe make sense to transition Burke to helipads instead of runways to open lakefront land to public use. Once again hard to say depending on where the technology leads. But I doubt any of these new forms of transport would be replacing high-speed, fixed wing aircraft to cover long distances. In its current condition Burke could handle whatever the technology sends our way. If we get rid of it, then once again we are starting from scratch and have to do through years of FAA red tape to establish a new operational area.
May 16, 20223 yr On 4/30/2022 at 7:15 AM, BoomerangCleRes said: Right and quick reminder, the city owns the land and can do what they want with relatively low fines from the FAA as proven in Chicago: “Chicago mayor Richard M. Daley forced the closing of Meigs in 2003 by ordering the overnight bulldozing of its runway without notice, in violation of Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regulations….. In the aftermath, the "Meigs Legacy provision" was passed into law, increasing the maximum fine per day from $1,100 to $10,000.” I was asked by a local publication to write a summary of lakefront developments (look for the article in July) and I interviewed Chris Ronayne at breakfast. He laments the above narrative, calling it "the overnight change that was years in the making." Ronayne said he met with Daly about lakefront stuff when Ronayne was city planning director and asked him about the closing of Meigs. He said the city of Chicago spent years paying down the debts of Meigs Field to zero and politically supported funding for facility improvements at Chicago Executive Airport (formerly Palwaukee Municipal Airport) and at Gary International Airport to act as general aviation relievers. So when the city did its midnight demo of Meigs, the FAA fined the city a whopping $33,000. 4 hours ago, YABO713 said: I heard a story that I think everyone will find interesting... A friend of mine was at dinner with a group of people last week, one of whom discussed how there is currently a world-renowned golf course developer who is infatuated with Burke. His long term vision is to develop a championship-level golf course on the Eastern portion of the parcel, with the prospect of attracting PGA events to the venue, including majors. Supposedly, he'd like to develop a "First Tee" flagship charter school on the site as well, where kids of modest means could go to school ages K-8 during the day, and then will have a daily training session in the afternoon, with the cost of golf and transportation being funded through the academy. No info into the remainder of the space, but I thought that was a really cool idea. And, if developed, would be one of the most unique courses in the world. Again, I know a developer's pipe dream seldom turns into reality, but just thought I'd share. Care to share who it was, @YABO713? Off-forum perhaps? 🕵️♂️ FYI, Burke is larger than Chicago's Grant Park and smaller than NYC's Central Park, in case such references help. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 16, 20223 yr I heard a story that I think everyone will find interesting... A friend of mine was at dinner with a group of people last week, one of whom discussed how there is currently a world-renowned golf course developer who is infatuated with Burke. His long term vision is to develop a championship-level golf course on the Eastern portion of the parcel, with the prospect of attracting PGA events to the venue, including majors. Supposedly, he'd like to develop a "First Tee" flagship charter school on the site as well, where kids of modest means could go to school ages K-8 during the day, and then will have a daily training session in the afternoon, with the cost of golf and transportation being funded through the academy. No info into the remainder of the space, but I thought that was a really cool idea. And, if developed, would be one of the most unique courses in the world. Again, I know a developer's pipe dream seldom turns into reality, but just thought I'd share. Love this idea, having a major sporting event around downtown every year would be great for the city on every level. If it can just take up half I think this is a win and leave the other half to other economic drivers/population pulls to the lakefront. I’m back and forth on having a major portion of the land being a park, if to the west we have Edgewater and at some point to east we’ll have “Edgewater East”. Given there certainly should be public green spaces throughout especially on the lake edges
May 16, 20223 yr 8 minutes ago, BoomerangCleRes said: Love this idea, having a major sporting event around downtown every year would be great for the city on every level. Speaking of major sporting event, one sad aspect of losing Burke is the proposition of never getting the Cleveland Grand Prix back.
May 16, 20223 yr Speaking of major sporting event, one sad aspect of losing Burke is the proposition of never getting the Cleveland Grand Prix back. True, although maybe since we’ve learned we have the widest streets in the world we could make a bid for a F1 street circuit, there would certainly be more room to overtake than Monaco
May 16, 20223 yr So we wanna keep Burke for the flying cars? I knew we were going to have a vote on legalizing weed in Ohio. I must have missed when we legalized crack.
May 17, 20223 yr 7 hours ago, X said: So we wanna keep Burke for the flying cars? I knew we were going to have a vote on legalizing weed in Ohio. I must have missed when we legalized crack. In 1947 when Burke opened, aviation was still relatively new and exciting. Cleveland was the 7th largest city in the country, with nearly a million people in the city limits. We took some toxic landfill and invested in the future of what could be. in 2022 flying cars and drones are not far fetched... .they are within short term planning goals and shouldn't be left out of the equation. In 1947 Cleveland lead the way, and who's to say we shouldn't do so now? Sadly the crack you speak about was the product of decades of poor urban planning and policy. A golf course is easy. Planning for the future takes vision and guts. I only hope Cleveland still has some.
May 17, 20223 yr If we close Burke to build a world-class golf course, where will all the golfers park their private jets? In all seriousness, sign me up for this pipe dream. Burke has a massive footprint so there's plenty of room for other uses, and if it somehow came together, a destination golf course would bring in high-dollar tourists at least 6 months a year, even without a big tournament.
May 17, 20223 yr 16 hours ago, surfohio said: Speaking of major sporting event, one sad aspect of losing Burke is the proposition of never getting the Cleveland Grand Prix back. I've never been a big fan of auto racing at Burke. Other cities have them on their downtown streets. Cleveland could do the same.
May 17, 20223 yr 14 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said: I've never been a big fan of auto racing at Burke. Other cities have them on their downtown streets. Cleveland could do the same. I'm not sure any of our downtown streets would be smooth enough to safely host a F1 race?
May 17, 20223 yr 1 hour ago, Cleburger said: I'm not sure any of our downtown streets would be smooth enough to safely host a F1 race? If Miami can do it, Cleveland certainly can. The roads down here almost rival any Cleveland street to me lol.
May 17, 20223 yr If Miami can do it, Cleveland certainly can. The roads down here almost rival any Cleveland street to me lol.And funny enough their track was a parking lot
May 17, 20223 yr I know there have been a few renderings of a redeveloped downtown lakefront over the years, but they have shown Burke remaining as an airport. Has anyone ever done a rendering showing the Burke property repurposed for recreational/entertainment attractions?
May 17, 20223 yr 12 hours ago, Cleburger said: In 1947 when Burke opened, aviation was still relatively new and exciting. Cleveland was the 7th largest city in the country, with nearly a million people in the city limits. We took some toxic landfill and invested in the future of what could be. in 2022 flying cars and drones are not far fetched... .they are within short term planning goals and shouldn't be left out of the equation. In 1947 Cleveland lead the way, and who's to say we shouldn't do so now? Sadly the crack you speak about was the product of decades of poor urban planning and policy. A golf course is easy. Planning for the future takes vision and guts. I only hope Cleveland still has some. In 1947, when Burke was opened, aviation had existed for over 3 decades and was viable for passenger and cargo transportation as well as military uses. Flying cars have not proven viable for any use. I for one doubt they ever will be.
May 18, 20223 yr On 5/16/2022 at 8:16 AM, YABO713 said: I heard a story that I think everyone will find interesting... A friend of mine was at dinner with a group of people last week, one of whom discussed how there is currently a world-renowned golf course developer who is infatuated with Burke. His long term vision is to develop a championship-level golf course on the Eastern portion of the parcel, with the prospect of attracting PGA events to the venue, including majors. Supposedly, he'd like to develop a "First Tee" flagship charter school on the site as well, where kids of modest means could go to school ages K-8 during the day, and then will have a daily training session in the afternoon, with the cost of golf and transportation being funded through the academy. No info into the remainder of the space, but I thought that was a really cool idea. And, if developed, would be one of the most unique courses in the world. Again, I know a developer's pipe dream seldom turns into reality, but just thought I'd share. I'm 100% for this if it moves the ball from airport. Burke is just so freaking huge. It's 100 acres larger than Augusta National. With some thoughtful planning, you can fit a golf course onto the eastern half, some major development on the far western edge, and still have 150+ acres of park and beach in between. I'm not a golfer, but I think a golf course in walking distance of downtown would actually be a huge asset. I'd hate to see the whole area devoted to golf, but it doesn't have to be and it won't be.
May 18, 20223 yr 16 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said: I'm 100% for this if it moves the ball from airport. Burke is just so freaking huge. It's 100 acres larger than Augusta National. With some thoughtful planning, you can fit a golf course onto the eastern half, some major development on the far western edge, and still have 150+ acres of park and beach in between. I'm not a golfer, but I think a golf course in walking distance of downtown would actually be a huge asset. I'd hate to see the whole area devoted to golf, but it doesn't have to be and it won't be. Bingo, and honestly - it would help to have something worthwhile to fill in such a substantial portion of the footprint.
May 18, 20223 yr 19 hours ago, X said: Flying cars have not proven viable for any use. I for one doubt they ever will be. You might change your mind if you lived in a city like Wash DC with constant low, slow, and noisy helicopter flights. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
May 18, 20223 yr 19 hours ago, X said: In 1947, when Burke was opened, aviation had existed for over 3 decades and was viable for passenger and cargo transportation as well as military uses. Flying cars have not proven viable for any use. I for one doubt they ever will be. Passenger aviation as we know it today did not exist as it was out of reach for the common man. The Southwest Airlines passengers of today were still cutting their toenails and being drunk and obnoxious on trains in '47.
May 18, 20223 yr 20 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said: I know there have been a few renderings of a redeveloped downtown lakefront over the years, but they have shown Burke remaining as an airport. Has anyone ever done a rendering showing the Burke property repurposed for recreational/entertainment attractions? I don't think so. That either means that it was a political non-starter or possibly that even the most starry-eyed developer realized the space was too vast for their purposes. edit - but as far as your mention of recreation/entertainment, the closing of Euclid Beach Park had left a major hole in the community. I do absolutely think a family-friendly attraction is needed and would be awesome for the area. Edited May 18, 20223 yr by surfohio
May 18, 20223 yr 12 minutes ago, surfohio said: I don't think so. That either means that it was a political non-starter or possibly that even the most starry-eyed developer realized the space was too vast for their purposes. The reason I ask is if there were such a rendering, it might sway those who want Burke to remain an airport. As for the vastness of the space, a chunk of the Burke property will be needed to correctly fix Deadman's Curve, which hopefully will happen in my lifetime. 24 minutes ago, surfohio said: edit - but as far as your mention of recreation/entertainment, the closing of Euclid Beach Park had left a major hole in the community. I do absolutely think a family-friendly attraction is needed and would be awesome for the area. In addition to Euclid Beach Park, NE Ohio also lost Geauga Lake and Sea World. A mini amusement park might be an idea to consider, maybe something similar to Belmont Park in San Diego.
June 23, 20222 yr Open the thread KPJ teases “I have an article coming out next month in Cleveland Magazine about this.”
June 23, 20222 yr 1 hour ago, BoomerangCleRes said: Open the thread KPJ teases “I have an article coming out next month in Cleveland Magazine about this.” If he talked with Mayor Daley, then expect the runway to be torn up in the middle of the night and become obsolete and permanently shut down.
June 23, 20222 yr 2 hours ago, savadams13 said: If he talked with Mayor Daley, then expect the runway to be torn up in the middle of the night and become obsolete and permanently shut down. Not happening. Meigs was general aviation. Not a reliever airport. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 4, 20222 yr Are there any studies on how large of buildings could actually be built on Burke's land?
November 14, 20222 yr I don't agree with this article, but it is a good article and I feel it belongs here. https://www.crainscleveland.com/letters-editor/letter-editor-burke-should-remain-general-aviation-airport I can help but feel like the proper retort to his question "What major city in the country has a reliever airport as proximate to the downtown hub than Cleveland?" Is that maybe there's a reason for that...
November 14, 20222 yr On 11/4/2022 at 11:05 AM, Ethan said: Are there any studies on how large of buildings could actually be built on Burke's land? I was hoping a civil engineer would respond by now. But I would think the answer is: any size of building as long as the developer has the resources to afford digging caissons to bedrock. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 14, 20222 yr Burke, Hopkins and Canton-Akron are all underutilized airports. One needs to go. And Burke is the odd man out. CAK can be designated as a reliever for CLE. It irks me that so many people use the argument that nothing can be built on the Burke land since it is on a landfill. While that may preclude any high-rise towers from being built there, it would not prevent the property from being redeveloped as a park, marina, gardens, walking/biking trails and various other recreational and entertainment attractions. Personally, I would rather see high-rise towers built on the parking craters in the CBD and Flats West Bank, not on the lakefront.
November 14, 20222 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: I was hoping a civil engineer would respond by now. But I would think the answer is: any size of building as long as the developer has the resources to afford digging caissons to bedrock. The real issue with Burke is land ownership. Since the airport is built on land fill then the State of Ohio owns the submerged lake surface with Cleveland owning the the "surface." It is very difficult to see the land to a developer.
November 14, 20222 yr 2 hours ago, Ethan said: "What major city in the country has a reliever airport as proximate to the downtown hub than Cleveland?" Kansas City & New York City to start.
November 14, 20222 yr 6 hours ago, KJP said: I was hoping a civil engineer would respond by now. But I would think the answer is: any size of building as long as the developer has the resources to afford digging caissons to bedrock. I'm not a civil engineer, but the Great Lakes Science Center has a very informative display on what needed to be done to have caissons that reach bedrock. I want to say they had to go down about 130 feet, but I am not certain. Even though it is west of Burke Lakefront Airport, it is still located on fill materials as is everything that is north of the railroad tracks. Insufficient footing depth is also the reason why the old Municipal Stadium could not be properly rebuilt for continued use by the Browns. The old stadium's footers did not go down deep enough to properly support the structure.
November 14, 20222 yr 5 hours ago, Cleburger said: Kansas City & New York City to start. I was reading Wikipedia article on KC's downtown airport and saw this: "Airplanes had to avoid the 200-foot (60 m) Quality Hill and the Downtown Kansas City skyline south of the south end of the main runway. In the early 1960s, an FAA memo called it "the most dangerous major airport in the country" and urged that no further federal funds be spent on it." Edited November 14, 20222 yr by LibertyBlvd
November 14, 20222 yr 7 hours ago, KJP said: I was hoping a civil engineer would respond by now. But I would think the answer is: any size of building as long as the developer has the resources to afford digging caissons to bedrock. I don't know the answer to this, but it probably means something there are buildings that exist on Burke right now. At least part of the land can accommodate low rise buildings.
November 14, 20222 yr 15 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said: I don't know the answer to this, but it probably means something there are buildings that exist on Burke right now. At least part of the land can accommodate low rise buildings. Just to add to my point, if even 10% of Burke can be built on, that allows a massive development. For context, the below encircled area is about 35 acres, i.e. less than 10% the area of Burke. I still maintain most of Burke should be a park, but you can definitely have a large development and a large park coexist.
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