9 minutes ago, PaxtonMarley said:

 

Ouch, that discussion for a different day and a different thread.

 

Stark's probably right about Millennium Park. Keep in mind that Millennium Park is very well connected to the Loop, same with Baltimore's Inner Harbor, and D.C.'s National Mall.  Each of those civic spaces has concert venues, monuments, and museums to keep visitors interested and engaged.  So instead of saying "close Burke," how about being a little more visionary and ask what do folks want to Burke to become?

Yes, he wanted to extend downtown without all the spaghetti infrastructure of other proposals. Blue line would be straightened out and connect to land where Burke sits minus the Burke flight path.

 

Burke should be a park with all the amenities that attract visitors until market demand says the remainder should be carved up and developed. 

 

It it would have a bigger economic impact as a kiddie park and golf course with a nature preserve at far end than a airport. 

Edited July 16, 20195 yr by Cleveland Trust

2 hours ago, Cleveland Trust said:

. The Port is about to spend a lot of money modernizing a boondoggle.

 

Most of the modernization effort is the cost of the runway work.  As was previously pointed out, the airport does NOT pay for runway/taxiway work. If a bit more money put into the terminal building means Ultimate will operate BKL-PWK (which they would like to do) it's worth it. Success with a PWK (Chicago Executive Airport) would push the pax count close to 40,000 annually. A third route to Peachtree or a NYC area airport would mean BKL would make money until current technology is replaced with VTOL.  Then (2030-40?) you can close BKL. 

 

1 hour ago, Cleveland Trust said:

Remember when BP left? That was because Cleveland was too small for the executives.

 

BP left because they wanted Amoco more than they wanted Cleveland.

 

 

Mainly a lurker because I enjoy all the discussion and the recent development boom in Cleveland news. I feel the Burke airport will be address eventually. Not everything can be NOW, NOW, NOW. With the towpath being completed, the Edgewater beach improvements, the Lakewood steps and park, Rivergate park, Irishtownbend park, Dock 30 developments, FEB, new dock slips being installed, an extended mall, the land bridge, and the new apartments being build a little further east of Burke the waterfront access has greatly improved and continue to improve. While it is not perfect, you can't act like the waterfront access issue isn't being addressed. All the improvements I have stated above has improved the image and will improve in the future the image of Cleveland to out of towners. Burke will be discussed after all of those items. I'm very excited for the future of the Lakefront and Riverfront.

Also the sports teams are not going to leave anytime soon.

Edited July 16, 20195 yr by WindyBuckeye

i just don’t see the impetus to close Burke or the great need for additional towers to line the shoreway. Maybe in 10 years it may be a good time to revisit once another recession has hit and we understand better where electric cars are going, and Cleveland continues to boom with national events. 

10 minutes ago, Dougal said:

 

Most of the modernization effort is the cost of the runway work.  As was previously pointed out, the airport does NOT pay for runway/taxiway work. If a bit more money put into the terminal building means Ultimate will operate BKL-PWK (which they would like to do) it's worth it. Success with a PWK (Chicago Executive Airport) would push the pax count close to 40,000 annually. A third route to Peachtree or a NYC area airport would mean BKL would make money until current technology is replaced with VTOL.  Then (2030-40?) you can close BKL. 

 

 

BP left because they wanted Amoco more than they wanted Cleveland.

 

 

Is the new runway free? Someone is spending the money. Someone will be happy.

 

I am not debating that some people can make money at Burke. I wonder if the trade off is killing us.

 

BP left because Cleveland was not an attractive place to live and there seemed to be contentment at City Hall with being below average and shrinking. They could have moved Amoco jobs here but the Chicagoans showed them a good time. The choice was simple for the decision makers. 

Edited July 16, 20195 yr by Cleveland Trust

11 minutes ago, audidave said:

i just don’t see the impetus to close Burke or the great need for additional towers to line the shoreway. Maybe in 10 years it may be a good time to revisit once another recession has hit and we understand better where electric cars are going, and Cleveland continues to boom with national events. 

In ten years a lot of money will be lost to a boondoggle. Ignore the tumor you kill the patient. 

 

Bursts of money from national events are not a reliable form of econmic development: there are like 40 pro sports cities, they all have convention centers, it is not unique to Cleveland. Citizens working and living are the best way forward. Wonder why Chicago is such convention hotbed. People want to go there anyway! We seem so content with a few hours of good national media coverage. 

Edited July 16, 20195 yr by Cleveland Trust

These other cities without downtown airports are passing us by like we’re standing still and we’re debating why people are leaving!

3 minutes ago, Cleveland Trust said:

 

BP left because Cleveland was not an attractive place to live and there seemed to be contentment with being below average and shrinking. They could have moved Amoco jobs here but the Chicagoans showed them a good time. 

Cleveland was not an attractive place.  There was a lot of corruption with county government. There was a lot of red tape. Processes moved slowly. The city had high crime even in Ohio City. None of the foodie places or breweries existed. Cleveland was a bigger Scranton with a burning river as far as the nation was concerned. 

  None of the above has anything to do with an airport next to downtown.  If anything that makes Cleveland interesting as a working city. The airport just like the freighters on the river show vibrancy. 

1 minute ago, audidave said:

Cleveland was not an attractive place.  There was a lot of corruption with county government. There was a lot of red tape. Processes moved slowly. The city had high crime even in Ohio City. None of the foodie places or breweries existed. Cleveland was a bigger Scranton with a burning river as far as the nation was concerned. 

  None of the above has anything to do with an airport next to downtown.  If anything that makes Cleveland interesting as a working city. The airport just like the freighters on the river show vibrancy. 

Wanna bet?

One thing the Conventions do for the city are improve the dumb image people have of Cleveland from the past. They don't know how far the city has come. So yes, Conventions are everywhere, but if you nail a big event like Cleveland has done, it does go a long way for changing that perception. Pretty sure we aren't content with a few hours of national media coverage but it is a step in the right direction to change the perception. Development is amazing is in the city right now. People want to move to urban settings and once more residents move to Dock 30, then you move on to Burke and see what the best ideas are for that area.
 

Edited July 16, 20195 yr by WindyBuckeye

21 hours ago, Pugu said:

 

Cleveland Trust--where do you get your numbers? The last time I asked, you cited a non-aviation reporter at Scene whose article was full of errors. And now you say "Burke lost close to 50% of its traffic between 2017-2018."?  That's absurd.  So you don't poison otherwise innocent minds, here are real numbers:

 

2017  26,773 Itinerant (BKL is either origin or destination) + 11,798 local (flights that take off and land at BKL)

2018  25,209 itinerant + 9,288 local

 

hardly a 50% decrease in traffic---and these are aircraft numbers--not passenger numbers.

 

 

 

 

Passenger numbers should have actually dramatically increased thanks to Ultimate Air adding BKL to their schedule.  

 

I'm down there all the time and those jets are almost always full both arriving and departing.  

1 minute ago, WindyBuckeye said:

One thing the Conventions do for the city are improve the dumb image people have of Cleveland from the past. They don't know how far the city has come. So yes, Conventions aren't everywhere, but if you nail a big event like Cleveland has done, it does go a long way for changing that perception. Pretty sure we aren't content with a few hours of national media coverage but it is a step in the right direction to change the perception. Development is amazing is in the city right now. People want to move to urban settings and once more residents move to Dock 30, then you move on to Burke and see what the best ideas are for that area.
 

We are shrinking. Other cities have breweries and restaurants and conventions. It’s not working.

2 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

Passenger numbers should have actually dramatically increased thanks to Ultimate Air adding BKL to their schedule.  

 

I'm down there all the time and those jets are almost always full both arriving and departing.  

One flight a day. One at night.

Population may be shrinking now, but steps are being made and improvements in the region to stabilize the population in the region. So you think changing the airport, just will change the whole country's perception of Cleveland automatically population increases? I find that very hard to believe.

 

I have a feeling in 5 years, the lakefront and riverfront is going to look much different and vastly improved even with Burke still here.

Edited July 16, 20195 yr by WindyBuckeye

4 minutes ago, Cleveland Trust said:

One flight a day. One at night.

 

Like many of your statements about BKL, this is simply not true.     

 

I just dropped off my wife at the BKL-LUK flight this morning.   There is a morning and evening flight, with passengers deplaning and boarding each way.  

You know why I like Chicago so much? They have an airport. I love spending time there. Too bad it’s not downtown tho.

2 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

Like many of your statements about BKL, this is simply not true.     

 

I just dropped off my wife at the BKL-LUK flight this morning.   There is a morning and evening flight, with passengers deplaning and boarding each way.  

Oh. I fly from Hopkins.

Edited July 16, 20195 yr by Cleveland Trust

1 minute ago, Cleveland Trust said:

Oh. I fly from Hopkins.

 

And some fly from BKL.   With no security, free parking and the "ultimate" in convenience.  And by the way--you can't fly direct to CVG from Hopkins.  Unless you buy yourself a charter.  

If you ask me, this is something the City of Cleveland should be pushing--starting with Ultimate Air.   Why not add more flights out of BKL that can make use of a connection at Lunken?     I bet if I walked in and asked Mayor Jackson about Ultimate Air, he would say "Who?"  ?

I mean if you enjoy ORD, you're the select few. MDW is slightly better. 

Cleveland barring your whole airport in city argument is very exciting city to visit. All people I have had visit for the first time love the town and never are like why is there a dumb airport there? But I know this is your hill to die on, so I hope you make progress with your stance on Burke with action. I would enjoy more development around there too.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

And some fly from BKL.   With no security, free parking and the "ultimate" in convenience.  And by the way--you can't fly direct to CVG from Hopkins.  Unless you buy yourself a charter.  

If you ask me, this is something the City of Cleveland should be pushing--starting with Ultimate Air.   Why not add more flights out of BKL that can make use of a connection at Lunken?     I bet if I walked in and asked Mayor Jackson about Ultimate Air, he would say "Who?"  ?

If you said Jane Jacobs he’d say, “who?”

6 minutes ago, WindyBuckeye said:

I mean if you enjoy ORD, you're the select few. MDW is slightly better. 

Cleveland barring your whole airport in city argument is very exciting city to visit. All people I have had visit for the first time love the town and never are like why is there a dumb airport there? But I know this is your hill to die on, so I hope you make progress with your stance on Burke with action. I would enjoy more development around there too.

 

 

Airports access is necessary to compete but putting one downtown is suicide.

 

Cleveland has potential. And yet we are shrinking.

1 minute ago, Cleveland Trust said:

Airports access is necessary to compete but putting one downtown is suicide.

 

Cleveland has potential. And yet we are shrinking.

 

In 1950 Cleveland maxed out population at just under one million.  We were the 7th largest city in the country.  

You know what we had in 1950?   A downtown airport.....

 

I'd love to have that kind of 1950's "suicide" in Cleveland again.   The airport had nothing to do with its decline.  

14 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

And some fly from BKL.   With no security, free parking and the "ultimate" in convenience.  And by the way--you can't fly direct to CVG from Hopkins.  Unless you buy yourself a charter.  

If you ask me, this is something the City of Cleveland should be pushing--starting with Ultimate Air.   Why not add more flights out of BKL that can make use of a connection at Lunken?     I bet if I walked in and asked Mayor Jackson about Ultimate Air, he would say "Who?"  ?

Look, I’m glad it’s easy for your wife can fly to Cincinnati. The problem is that these other cities are poised to grow and we are trying to compete with a lakefront that we can’t use. Look what they are planning around their waterfronts. They were in the same boat we were in and now we’re sinking and they have a vision of the future. We need airports, convention centers, sports ball events but we also need a magnet for people.

Pretty sure Chicago, Milwaukee, and Baltimore population declined last year. Also Detroit was until last year. Detroit's image is worse among peers compared to Cleveland. Baltimore's isn't too great either and a downtown airport is never discussed with this.

Edited July 16, 20195 yr by WindyBuckeye

4 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

In 1950 Cleveland maxed out population at just under one million.  We were the 7th largest city in the country.  

You know what we had in 1950?   A downtown airport.....

 

I'd love to have that kind of 1950's "suicide" in Cleveland again.   The airport had nothing to do with its decline.  

Yes, all those steel workers came here because of convenient flights to Cincinnati. Lol Its a different world.

Cleburger was right though, airport had nothing to do with the decline. You answered it yourself.

4 minutes ago, WindyBuckeye said:

Pretty sure Chicago, Milwaukee, and Baltimore population declined last year. Also Detroit was until last year. Detroit's image is worse among peers compared to Cleveland. Baltimore's isn't too great either and a downtown airport is never discussed with this.

Yes. They are looking for a comeback. Chicago investment is staggering however. 

Edited July 16, 20195 yr by Cleveland Trust

And we are not looking for a comeback due to the downtown airport? Ok, got it.

5 minutes ago, WindyBuckeye said:

And we are not looking for a comeback due to the downtown airport? Ok, got it.

No, we can’t compete for population and talent. 

10 minutes ago, WindyBuckeye said:

Cleburger was right though, airport had nothing to do with the decline. You answered it yourself.

The steel mills might have been a serious economic magnet in the 1950’s. Should we just stick with he 1950’s growth strategy? Our future is steel?

12 minutes ago, Cleveland Trust said:

Yes. They are looking for a comeback. Chicago investment is staggering however. 

 

Chicago, Cook County and the surrounding metro counties have also been losing population since Daley bulldozed Meigs.   

2 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

Chicago, Cook County and the surrounding metro counties have also been losing population since Daley bulldozed Meigs.   

Oh. How has investment been since then? 

A) I would rather see the Lakefront used as a more developed version of Edgewater... Having said that...

 

B) Has anyone ever talked about EXPANDING BKL and making it Cleveland's primary airport? I know very little about this topic so if this is crazy just let me know lol. I do know that Hopkins infrastructure is aging, and we have a terminal already sitting abandoned. Would a new airport attract a new hub?

 

Please don't hurl stones lol, I'm just thinking out loud. 

Just now, YABO713 said:

A) I would rather see the Lakefront used as a more developed version of Edgewater... Having said that...

 

B) Has anyone ever talked about EXPANDING BKL and making it Cleveland's primary airport? I know very little about this topic so if this is crazy just let me know lol. I do know that Hopkins infrastructure is aging, and we have a terminal already sitting abandoned. Would a new airport attract a new hub?

 

Please don't hurl stones lol, I'm just thinking out loud. 

They want a second runway which will secure Burke’s future. 

Shrinking Chicago 16 years after closing Meigs Field. Wow, what were they thinking!

 

Edited July 16, 20195 yr by Cleveland Trust

5 minutes ago, Cleveland Trust said:

They want a second runway which will secure Burke’s future. 

 

Is everything you say about Burke false?  ?

 

There are already 2 runways at Burke!  

4 minutes ago, Cleveland Trust said:

Shrinking Chicago 16 years after closing Meigs Field. Wow, what were they thinking!

 

 

Pretty picture.   Cleveland has an attractive CBD as well.   

 

Now how about some population data? 

 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-census-chicago-cook-county-population-decline-20190408-story.html

2 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

Is everything you say about Burke false?  ?

 

There are already 2 runways at Burke!  

Check their website.

3 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

Pretty picture.   Cleveland has an attractive CBD as well.   

 

Now how about some population data? 

 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-census-chicago-cook-county-population-decline-20190408-story.html

That population trend started early 2000. You have an orphan statistic and false correlation in one post.

1 hour ago, Dougal said:

 

Most of the modernization effort is the cost of the runway work.  As was previously pointed out, the airport does NOT pay for runway/taxiway work. If a bit more money put into the terminal building means Ultimate will operate BKL-PWK (which they would like to do) it's worth it. Success with a PWK (Chicago Executive Airport) would push the pax count close to 40,000 annually. A third route to Peachtree or a NYC area airport would mean BKL would make money until current technology is replaced with VTOL.  Then (2030-40?) you can close BKL. 

 

 

BP left because they wanted Amoco more than they wanted Cleveland.

 

 

 

I wouldn't use BP's relocation as a metric of Cleveland's desirability.  Yes, they moved to Chicago when they merged with Amoco.  But later they moved their American HQ to Houston but it was since relocated to Denver.

5 minutes ago, Cleveland Trust said:

Check their website.

 

Who is they and what website?  

 

 

2 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

Who is they and what website?  

 

 

BKL. They are gonna get this boomdoggle turned around. Put Cleveland on the map!

 

link is upthread

Edited July 16, 20195 yr by Cleveland Trust

7 minutes ago, PaxtonMarley said:

 

I wouldn't use BP's relocation as a metric of Cleveland's desirability.  Yes, they moved to Chicago when they merged with Amoco.  But later they moved their American HQ to Houston but it was since relocated to Denver.

But not to North Haverbrook? Ogdenville? Cleveland? Notice that those cities you mention are all cosmopolitan. Do they have downtown airports to attract businesses? 

There is talk in Chicago of reopening Meigs field.  The one mayoral candidate says they are losing a half billion in revenue for the city by having it closed. 

You just changed your reasoning from population decline to now investment. Have you seen the investment recently in the city of Cleveland all while there is still a downtown airport? Astonishing. Also you may know some people, but I don't know many who are being lured to live in Baltimore, Milwaukee, or Detroit. Sure Chicago has, but that is a completely different market comparison and it is not due to the airport.

Audidave - here is the article I believe you are talking about.

 

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/february/14/could-meigs-make-a-comeback

12 minutes ago, audidave said:

There is talk in Chicago of reopening Meigs field.  The one mayoral candidate says they are losing a half billion in revenue for the city by having it closed. 

Oh. Wonder what they’ll do.

20 minutes ago, WindyBuckeye said:

You just changed your reasoning from population decline to now investment. Have you seen the investment recently in the city of Cleveland all while there is still a downtown airport? Astonishing. Also you may know some people, but I don't know many who are being lured to live in Baltimore, Milwaukee, or Detroit. Sure Chicago has, but that is a completely different market comparison and it is not due to the airport.

Audidave - here is the article I believe you are talking about.

 

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/february/14/could-meigs-make-a-comeback

Because the population loss in Chicago actually slowed down after Meigs Field closed (coincidence, I think) but investment is way up (2009 financial collapse excepted). They are restarting the magnet or at least slowing the loss. Maybe their present investment will not payoff because they closed down Meigs Field and don’t have a downtown airport and maybe Millennium Park will be a flop in 5 years. Maybe they should follow our example and put piles of crushed limestone on their waterfront and in Millennium Park as a way to stem the loss. We’ll see.

 

I hear there’s talk of opening a downtown airport in Chicago. Wonder what they’ll do...

Edited July 16, 20195 yr by Cleveland Trust

What about Cleveland's present investment in the river and lakefront? Will that not pay off due to the airport?  All your absolute statements are frustrating as is your know it all tone in most of your posts.

I know more people leaving Chicago due to the cost of living, even cities like Chicago suffer population loss. I think its the crime and real estate taxes causing this, but anyways all cities have problems. For some reason you feel the downtown airport is ruining our city and doesn't attract 20/30 years olds due to this, another false statement. People love the metroparks, edgewater, and the towpath trail with more parks to come. Irishtown is going to be amazing for the area and so will Dock 30. Then we shall see where Burke goes. All the items coming before Burke is going to improve the city's image more in the short term. 

I would love to see a more in depth plan by you using actual numbers on how improving the airport land IN Cleveland would increase population and investment in the whole region only due to this airport closing and that nothing currently being done will increase population or investment.

I feel like we are going in circles with discussion, so this will be the end of it for me. There is no true useful information coming out of this, but just the same discussion as always with no clear stated end plans.

I do think in 15-20 years we will look at this discussion as nonsense in relation to Cleveland losing their sports teams, having severe population loss, and losing investment.

Good day and for your sake I hope there is news on Burke in the not too distant future that will please you.

Edited July 16, 20195 yr by WindyBuckeye

I know this isn't directly relevant to the Burke conversation, but Meigs is absolutely not re-opening any time soon, regardless of what a failed mayoral candidate (Willie Wilson, I believe) had promised. Granted, Northerly Island has been mildly disappointing (the erosion problem is worrisome in particular), but the business community has not been clamoring or threatening to convert Northerly Island to an airport. It is decisively a 90 acre park with concerts, walking paths, a tiny beach, and the occasional special exhibit like the Hamilton one currently.

21 minutes ago, WindyBuckeye said:

What about Cleveland's present investment in the river and lakefront? Will that not pay off due to the airport?  All your absolute statements are frustrating as is your know it all tone in most of your posts.

I know more people leaving Chicago due to the cost of living, even cities like Chicago suffer population loss. I think its the crime and real estate taxes causing this, but anyways all cities have problems. For some reason you feel the downtown airport is ruining our city and doesn't attract 20/30 years olds due to this, another false statement. People love the metroparks, edgewater, and the towpath trail with more parks to come. Irishtown is going to be amazing for the area and so will Dock 30. Then we shall see where Burke goes. All the items coming before Burke is going to improve the city's image more in the short term. 

I would love to see a more in depth plan by you using actual numbers on how improving the airport land IN Cleveland would increase population and investment in the whole region only due to this airport closing and that nothing currently being done will increase population or investment.

I feel like we are going in circles with discussion, so this will be the end of it for me. There is no true useful information coming out of this, but just the same discussion as always with no clear stated end plans.

I do think in 15-20 years we will look at this discussion as nonsense in relation to Cleveland losing their sports teams, having severe population loss, and losing investment.

Good day and for your sake I hope there is news on Burke in the not too distant future that will please you.

We need lakefront and riverfront investment. Absolutely. But why not give ourselves a grander vision for development like the Burnham Plan for the lakefront? Because of this obstacle tying everything up.

 

Lol, I really don’t know too much at all so if I’m acting like a “know it all” it’s because I’m getting dogpiled by some other users here and I really care about this stuff, about The City. That’s it. Sorry to come across like a jerk. Not my style usually. Sorry everyone here. Nothing personal.

 

Unfortunately, unless something changes fast we are stuck with Burke.  I don’t know why some people are so set on it. It’s so backward to me.