6 minutes ago, Cleveland Trust said:

Count up those Eaton jobs. American Greetings jobs that left town. Could have been on that lakefront where your precious limestone piles sit.

Ok now I think you’re pranking the forum, because you cannot POSSIBLY believe that the existence of Burke is why we don’t have Eaton or American Greetings. Lmao. I refuse to believe that that you actually think that’s true. There’s no way on God’s green earth you actually believe that. You gotta be pranking us. (And btw, it would have never been built on Burke land BECAUSE ITS A FREAKIN LANDFILL. )

Edited July 17, 20195 yr by inlovewithCLE

3 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

You do realize they can just vote with their feet and leave right? Taking tax dollars with them. WE (assuming you mean the city) don’t have any money. The money that city government (any government really) has comes from taxpayers. So it’s a simple equation: more taxpayers, more tax dollars. Less taxpayers, less tax dollars. Not rocket science, but I digress because I’m not going down another rabbit hole with you 

Not my argument at all. We could  have had 5,000 jobs that left town plus half of those 271 Progressive Insurance buildings if it wasn’t for Pay to Play stonewalling on (in part) our failing Burke airport. 

 

Burke’s demise was predicted by smarter people than me 30 years ago. It is time to close it. 

9 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

Ok now I think you’re pranking the forum, because you cannot POSSIBLY believe that the existence of Burke is why we don’t have Eaton or American Greetings. Lmao. I refuse to believe that that you actually think that’s true. There’s no way on God’s green earth you actually believe that. You gotta be pranking us. (And btw, it would have never been built on Burke land BECAUSE ITS A FREAKIN LANDFILL. )

Hur dur! Go to Crocker Park. That was developed by Stark after abandoning Cle Pesht. That is what he wanted on the lakefront!  

I wanted to post this in the Burke thread, but it was locked?

 

'What if Burke vanished into thin air?' Panel invites us to imagine possibilities - an interesting FreshWater article if you haven't read it.

 

please don't hurt me for posting this here, I have witnessed the damage up-thread?

^Imagine if we also closed down Hopkins--we'd have lots of open land to develop--Downtown and the west side. After all, we have the County Airport, that while it can't even handle the larger aircraft from Burke, is itself under capacity which must mean it take all kinds of planes. 

This thread is being unlocked, but we will be watching it.  So don't be jerks!

On 7/17/2019 at 1:16 PM, Cleveland Trust said:

Hur dur! Go to Crocker Park. That was developed by Stark after abandoning Cle Pesht. That is what he wanted on the lakefront!  

 

Crocker Park development started before Pesht was announced. I remember it because I broke the stories for both when I worked at Sun Newspapers. ?

7 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Crocker Park development started before Pesht was announced. I remember it because I broke the stories for both when I worked at Sun Newspapers. ?

 

I believe Crocker Park *opened* (October 29, 2004) before the first hint Stark gave of a plan for the warehouse district (March 5, 2005).

Edited July 27, 20195 yr by jam40jeff

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2019/08/should-burke-lakefront-airport-close-coalition-keeps-important-question-alive-steven-litt.html

 

It seems like we get these regurgitated articles every 4 months with the same back and forth. That said, 34,000 flights in 2018 compared to 100,000 in 2000? I wonder how long people would notice it was closed if they just x'd the runways and called it a day. 

Edited August 11, 20195 yr by TBideon

1 hour ago, TBideon said:

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2019/08/should-burke-lakefront-airport-close-coalition-keeps-important-question-alive-steven-litt.html

 

It seems like we get these regurgitated articles every 4 months with the same back and forth. That said, 34,000 flights in 2018 compared to 100,000 in 2000? I wonder how long people would notice it was closed if they just x'd the runways and called it a day. 

 

Labor Day would be quieter. 

 

What do you suppose the fines would be for X-ing the runways like Chicago did?  Cleveland better put that money aside before they roll the 'dozers.  Just shift some of our surplus, no problem.

 

 

$10,000 per day unless there is a 30 day notice to the FAA

Edited August 11, 20195 yr by TBideon

On 8/11/2019 at 2:35 PM, Foraker said:

 

Labor Day would be quieter. 

 

What do you suppose the fines would be for X-ing the runways like Chicago did?  Cleveland better put that money aside before they roll the 'dozers.  Just shift some of our surplus, no problem.

 

 

 

Labor day would be quieter?  When an estimated 100,000 people gather to watch the airshow at Burke?  

Posting fail 

 

Edited August 12, 20195 yr by Boomerang_Brian

4 hours ago, Cleburger said:

 

Labor day would be quieter?  When an estimated 100,000 people gather to watch the airshow at Burke?  

 

If you remove Burke, there will be no airshow, dude.

34 minutes ago, Foraker said:

 

If you remove Burke, there will be no airshow, dude.

 

Sorry i read your post differently as in "Labor Day would be a good day to bulldoze runways", chica.   

Burke isn't useless.  Come on, Delta just starting flying out of Burke.  Perhaps Burke will be a new Delta hub!

But seriously, I don't know why a Delta jet was there.  A charter perhaps?

Probably the Red Sox's plane.

 

So if Burke was closed, the desire to put housing there is backward. Put the housing where the port is, with some high-rise stuff and a public edge to the lake. Move the port to Burke. Make the rest a park.

27 minutes ago, KJP said:

Probably the Red Sox's plane.

 

Identity: DAL8878     Type: B752    Origin: Boston Logan Intl (KBOS)       Arr: Sun 07:34PM EDTSun         Dep: 08:55PM EDT

 

https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KBKL/arrivals?;offset=40;order=actualarrivaltime;sort=DESC

4 minutes ago, surfohio said:

Identity: DAL8878     Type: B752    Origin: Boston Logan Intl (KBOS)       Arr: Sun 07:34PM EDTSun         Dep: 08:55PM EDT

 

https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KBKL/arrivals?;offset=40;order=actualarrivaltime;sort=DESC

 

Oh, good call on checking the Indians schedule.  I took this on July 13, and the Twins were in town that weekend.  Since Delta inherited its MSP hub from Northwest Airlines, it all makes sense now.

2 hours ago, KJP said:

Probably the Red Sox's plane.

 

So if Burke was closed, the desire to put housing there is backward. Put the housing where the port is, with some high-rise stuff and a public edge to the lake. Move the port to Burke. Make the rest a park.

 

If the port would move to Burke, they would lose their rail access, no?  

15 hours ago, KJP said:

Probably the Red Sox's plane.

 

So if Burke was closed, the desire to put housing there is backward. Put the housing where the port is, with some high-rise stuff and a public edge to the lake. Move the port to Burke. Make the rest a park.

 

Agreed!

 

I would make the port a portion of Burke, with some parkland, and maybe the western edge nearest Downtown could also get some housing development.

18 hours ago, Cleburger said:

 

If the port would move to Burke, they would lose their rail access, no?  

 

A new rail access, bridging over the Shoreway, would be needed. 

Burke Lakefront Airport Future

 

https://www.ideastream.org/programs/sound-of-ideas/burke-lakefront-airport-future-zero-threshold-competition-statehouse-update

 

 

On 8/14/2019 at 1:31 PM, Terdolph said:

I wish we would give up on this closing Burke idea.  It is distracting us from other stuff. 

I wish we would give up on other stuff. It’s distracting us from this closing Burke idea. You know, the proven economic catalyst that should be our priority and will take Cleveland to the next level but City Hall won’t talk about it because reasons.

 

Small airports are in the news: https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/article/what-do-jeffrey-epstein-sex-traffic-ring-flights-say-about-teterboro/ar-AAGmGxi

 

You can “evade prying eyes,” at some of these smaller airports where you can land a plane for 5 bucks (it only costs 5 bucks to land a plane at Burke and yet only one daily flight to Cincinnati ?, you’d think airlines would be lined up to take advantage but nah) and there is no TSA oversight, 

 

Burke is going to be a Park. You’re gonna ❤️ love it.  

Edited September 4, 20195 yr by MayDay
Off topic content

And we can make it park for aircraft. People will not be allowed.

On 9/2/2019 at 8:35 AM, Cleveland Trust said:

I wish we would give up on other stuff. It’s distracting us from this closing Burke idea. You know, the proven economic catalyst that should be our priority and will take Cleveland to the next level but City Hall won’t talk about it because reasons.

 

Small airports are in the news: https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/article/what-do-jeffrey-epstein-sex-traffic-ring-flights-say-about-teterboro/ar-AAGmGxi

 

You can “evade prying eyes,” at some of these smaller airports where you can land a plane for 5 bucks (it only costs 5 bucks to land a plane at Burke and yet only one daily flight to Cincinnati ?, you’d think airlines would be lined up to take advantage but nah) and there is no TSA oversight, 

 

Burke is going to be a Park. You’re gonna ❤️ love it.  

 

So much wrong with this story.  

 

1.  For every Jeffrey Epstein, there are tens of thousands of legal GA flights every day. 

 

2.  It costs more than $5 to land an aircraft of Epstein's type-at any airport, including Burke:    https://www.burkeairport.com/services/pricing-fees

 

3.  Even if TSA was present, they don't generally check inbound passengers, and for outbound, they are not trained to catch sex-traffic victims.  I can't even imagine your average TSA agent trying to spot this....actually, it might be quite funny!

 

 

Here is a list of waterfront properties in downtown Cleveland that would be more impactful (and probably easier) to develop than Burke Lakefront:

 

- The area north of Browns Stadium

- Scranton peninsula

- West bank of the Flats

- Irishtown Bend (into a park - but that's a lot of what's being discussed for Burke)

- Chunks of the Columbus Rd Peninsula

- The river just down from Tower City and around Collision Bend

- Move the port authority and redevelop that area

 

And some non-waterfront, but still much more valuable properties that would all be more connected to downtown / Ohio City:

- West Public Sq / Jacobs Lot / new Sherwin Williams HQ lot

- Warehouse district lots

- East 4th Prospect to Huron (NuCLEus)

- Market Square (across from West Side Market - which is going to happen as long as the city doesn't screw it up, so no guarantees)

- Along W 25th between Detroit and Lorain

- Prospect / E17th

- Greyhound station and surrounding lots (Chester to Payne, E14 - E17)

- Davenport Bluffs (beautiful lake views!)

 

Until there is significant progress on the vast majority of these properties, talk of closing Burke Lakefront is a waste of time.  It's not like we're talking about the only piece of prime waterfront property downtown.

 

 

I made a map of waterfront / lakeview properties whose redevelopment I would prioritize ahead of Burke

 

Nearly all of those areas have redevelopment plans in progress, aren't actually waterfront in any meaningful sense, or are the Port.  Unless you are going to move the Port, that isn't developable.

Just now, X said:

Nearly all of those areas have redevelopment plans in progress, aren't actually waterfront in any meaningful sense, or are the Port.  Unless you are going to move the Port, that isn't developable.

 

How is land on the river not waterfront?  Or perhaps you are referring to Davenport Bluffs, which I was characterizing as "lakeview"?

 

And moving the port is the last item on my list of waterfront properties.  I would still prioritize that ahead of redeveloping Burke.  The port property has the advantage of already having the WFL rapid infrastructure for a station, plus it would be easy to add pedestrian access to the FEB.

 

The main point is that there is a LOT of downtown property that can be redeveloped which I would prioritize ahead of Burke.

River land is waterfront.  Everything you highlighted, except for TC Riverview currently has development plans in some stage.  The area you highlighted on the east side of Downtown is mostly the Muni Lot,  the RR tracks, and the slope of the old lakefront which may or may not be buildable.  Most of that wouldn't be Davenport Bluffs, which was the top of the bluff to Lakeside.  You tell me if I'm taking the boundaries you drew too literally, though.

1 hour ago, X said:

 Everything you highlighted, except for TC Riverview currently has development plans in some stage. 

 

Agreed.  And how long have these plans been in "some stage."  We have a long way to go before Burke needs to be addressed.   

 

IMO, (full disclosure, I am a pilot who uses BKL) the city should build a massive hangar between Taxiway G and North Marginal Rd (in the open grassy area where you may have parked if you went to the airshow).  Contract Signature or some other FBO to run it.  Then: 

 

Invite any aviation-related business low rent to relocate there.

 

Invite any business of over 100 employees who moves to the City of Cleveland free hangar storage for their aircraft.  

 

 

 

 

Burke is such an in-demand resource that we practically have to give it away!

15 hours ago, Cleveland Trust said:

I wish we would give up on other stuff. It’s distracting us from this closing Burke idea. You know, the proven economic catalyst that should be our priority and will take Cleveland to the next level but City Hall won’t talk about it because reasons.

 

Small airports are in the news: https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/article/what-do-jeffrey-epstein-sex-traffic-ring-flights-say-about-teterboro/ar-AAGmGxi

 

You can “evade prying eyes,” at some of these smaller airports where you can land a plane for 5 bucks (it only costs 5 bucks to land a plane at Burke and yet only one daily flight to Cincinnati ?, you’d think airlines would be lined up to take advantage but nah) and there is no TSA oversight, 

 

What’s this all about? https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2019/08/suspected-gang-member-poses-for-photo-with-gun-cash-in-cleveland-mayor-frank-jacksons-driveway-sources-say.html

 

Burke is going to be a Park. You’re gonna ❤️ love it.  

 

Uh oh, he's back.  CT, after I called you out several weeks ago in the Cincinnati airport thread for spreading this silliness, you said you were done with the conversation.  Guess not.

Edited September 3, 20195 yr by jeremyck01

On 9/2/2019 at 9:50 AM, Pugu said:

And we can make it park for aircraft. People will not be allowed.

Oh how the Burke shills like jokes.  Check this one out:

 

And  a lot of those flights are 30 minute BKL to BKL training flights. ?

 

And some are 7 minute BKL to CLE. ?

 

Edited September 3, 20195 yr by Cleveland Trust

15 hours ago, jeremyck01 said:

 

Uh oh, he's back.  CT, after I called you out several weeks ago in the Cincinnati airport thread for spreading this silliness, you said you were done with the conversation.  Guess not.

You totally owned me.

On 9/2/2019 at 10:47 AM, Cleburger said:

 

So much wrong with this story.  

 

1.  For every Jeffrey Epstein, there are tens of thousands of legal GA flights every day. 

 

2.  It costs more than $5 to land an aircraft of Epstein's type-at any airport, including Burke:    https://www.burkeairport.com/services/pricing-fees

 

3.  Even if TSA was present, they don't generally check inbound passengers, and for outbound, they are not trained to catch sex-traffic victims.  I can't even imagine your average TSA agent trying to spot this....actually, it might be quite funny!

 

 

1. The article is more about loopholes in airport security not the recent example of human trafficking.

2. I don’t care how much it costs to land a plane like Epstein’s. Not the point. 

3. TSA agents and all airline employees ARE trained to identify smugglers. Burke is more like Teterboro, no prying eyes. 

 

Totally unrelated. Have you read Cherry by by Nico Walker? Good book. Is there really a Rock and Roll McDonalds on Carnegie?

CT, regarding your diagram above on capacity, you never want an airport AT capacity----capacity can take 10-15 years to build. And other than using larger and larger aircraft, there is no ability for growth. And a single thunderstorm can cause hours of delays or cancelled flights due to constrained capacity. But you think operating below capacity is a problem.  (I promised myself not to respond to any more of your nonsense---but decided to break that vow just this once for the benefit of the full dialogue.)

4 minutes ago, Pugu said:

CT, regarding your diagram above on capacity, you never want an airport AT capacity----capacity can take 10-15 years to build. And other than using larger and larger aircraft, there is no ability for growth. And a single thunderstorm can cause hours of delays or cancelled flights due to constrained capacity. But you think operating below capacity is a problem.  (I promised myself not to respond to any more of your nonsense---but decided to break that vow just this once for the benefit of the full dialogue.)

Baseless assertion: “[my] nonsense.”

My nonsense: any hard data that supports closing Burke

 

We are not compatible. 

15 minutes ago, Pugu said:

CT, regarding your diagram above on capacity, you never want an airport AT capacity----capacity can take 10-15 years to build. And other than using larger and larger aircraft, there is no ability for growth. And a single thunderstorm can cause hours of delays or cancelled flights due to constrained capacity. But you think operating below capacity is a problem.  (I promised myself not to respond to any more of your nonsense---but decided to break that vow just this once for the benefit of the full dialogue.)

Cleveland loses between $2 mil-$3 mil operating Burke every year. They spend another $1.7 mil per year on average of Federal AIP grant money since 1982, plus a portion of a recent $20 million grant: https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2019/06/faa-awards-20m-for-upgrades-at-cleveland-hopkins-international-airport-burke-lakefront-airport.html

It is natural though that if you have two airports you have to remove snow from two runways, secure two airfields, maintain two airfields. All normal stuff. But is it in the civic interest to spend this money on a money-losing airport just to get more Federal money to keep it up? Why not get rid of that airport and send operations to Hopkins as proposed here: https://www.gcbl.org/files/resources/burkereport.pdf

 

 

On 7/27/2019 at 8:53 AM, KJP said:

 

Crocker Park development started before Pesht was announced. I remember it because I broke the stories for both when I worked at Sun Newspapers. ?

Stark had a lakefront redevelopment plan in his back pocket since high school. The airport had to go or you would end up with a tangle of “spaghetti connections” and the connections to the city had to be done right or the development wouldn’t work. Parking and transit would be below a raised platform of city streets like east of the Magnificent Mile in Chicago. At one point Progressive Insurance had a design for a three-tower complex with a modern art museum designed by Frank Ghery that would span the 15 acre gulch between downtown and the lakefront. Nothing happened. Progressive expanded in the suburbs. Stark moved on to do Crocker Park. The plan that eventually emerged as Pesht was an old teenage dream to reinvent Cleveland that he couldn’t let go.

 

Im not saying Burke is solely responsible for tanking every development on the lakefront but I think it plays a big role in how every development is contextualized. We are never going to get the grand design that we deserve. 

 

I don’t know if you ever do interviews but Stark might be a good person to interview for a Neo Trans exclusive.

2 minutes ago, Cleveland Trust said:

I don’t know if you ever do interviews but Stark might be a good person to interview for a Neo Trans exclusive.

 

I interview people for articles, but I don't do features on them. At least not yet. Sometimes I identify the people I interview for articles. Most times I don't because it's so early on in the process, they may not have authorization to discuss the project publicly. But if site control is still not settled, I usually don't report on it unless some aspect of it becomes a matter of public record (ie: the proposed Westinghouse redevelopment). 

 

23 hours ago, X said:

Burke is such an in-demand resource that we practically have to give it away!

 

Not unlike other sorts of "economic development" carrots the city has to dangle to get sports teams or businesses to stay.....

1 hour ago, Cleveland Trust said:

Stark had a lakefront redevelopment plan in his back pocket since high school. The airport had to go or you would end up with a tangle of “spaghetti connections” and the connections to the city had to be done right or the development wouldn’t work. Parking and transit would be below a raised platform of city streets like east of the Magnificent Mile in Chicago. At one point Progressive Insurance had a design for a three-tower complex with a modern art museum designed by Frank Ghery that would span the 15 acre gulch between downtown and the lakefront. Nothing happened. Progressive expanded in the suburbs. Stark moved on to do Crocker Park. The plan that eventually emerged as Pesht was an old teenage dream to reinvent Cleveland that he couldn’t let go.

 

Im not saying Burke is solely responsible for tanking every development on the lakefront but I think it plays a big role in how every development is contextualized. We are never going to get the grand design that we deserve. 

 

I don’t know if you ever do interviews but Stark might be a good person to interview for a Neo Trans exclusive.

Stark is really good at fulfilling grand plans downtown, see Nucleus, (sarcasm). How is Pesht so different than this grand plan he also had for the lakefront in his teen years?

Edited September 3, 20195 yr by WindyBuckeye

What are the best reasons to keep Burke Lakefront Airport open? 

2 hours ago, WindyBuckeye said:

Stark is really good at fulfilling grand plans downtown, see Nucleus, (sarcasm). How is Pesht so different than this grand plan he also had for the lakefront in his teen years?

Not sure. His lakefront plan was never realized, unlike Crocker Park in Westlake. 

4 hours ago, KJP said:

 

I interview people for articles, but I don't do features on them. At least not yet. Sometimes I identify the people I interview for articles. Most times I don't because it's so early on in the process, they may not have authorization to discuss the project publicly. But if site control is still not settled, I usually don't report on it unless some aspect of it becomes a matter of public record (ie: the proposed Westinghouse redevelopment). 

Then it would be cool interview Frank Jackson about why he won’t consider closing Burke. I have been searching the record for good reasons to keep Burke open and I can’t find any City Hall talking point that hasn’t been debunked. 

 

I just want want to know what information I’m missing that would change my mind. What is the plan down there? 

 

On 9/3/2019 at 5:49 PM, Terdolph said:

You mean it's not going to be Terdolph Park III?

How about calling it something more fitting? Let’s call it: 

 

Cleveland Drug Mart Grand Prix $$$ 

 

Thats what some people call it already. ?

Arguments that have been offered for keeping Burke in operation over the years:

✅ it is a needed reliever airport

✅ it is necessary for organ transplants at the Clinic

✅ it is built on a toxic landfill

✅ focus on infill downtown first

✅ the Federal Reserve uses it daily

✅ there is “strong demand” for downtown air travel 

✅ it is an economic engine

✅ Haslam and Gilbert fly home from Burke

✅ there is a commercial flight to Cincinnati

✅ people have argued to close it every year for 30 years 

✅ the FAA will not allow the City to close it

 

^^^ These issues have all been addressed, most of them in the 2002 GCBL study.