FAA ops site can give you operations data by aircraft type (military, airliner, commuter jet, etc.)  and flight type (itinerant or local) by month.  Re Ultimate, their numbers are strong and steady; 70% load factors in May.

Lies, Damn Lies and the 450 Acres of Prime Real Estate That is Burke Lakefront Airport...

 

The question for Keane the night before was why the city of Cleveland keeps Burke Lakefront Airport open even as the number of flights it services has dropped off a cliff, declining more than 60 percent since 2000. It's a question many others are asking too. Why does the city need an airport on prime downtown, lakefront property when it's not used by many planes?

 

https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/lies-damn-lies-and-the-450-acres-of-prime-lakefront-real-estate-that-is-burke-lakefront-airport/Content?oid=16931820

 

The irony of that headline calling Burke prime real estate. Wake me up in 20 years when (if) that's actually true.

It would make for a lovely park.

Cleveland Scene - once again, takes a position of which I agree and presents it in such a whiney, hipster, stick-it-to-da-man fashion that I feel like a tool for agreeing with them

Meh...more Cleveland Scene SIM City fantasy.  We're nearly 20 years from the Flats getting mowed down and we still haven't made it to Phase 3 of the East Bank development.

 

If the city or some developer managed to make it through the FAA red tape to close Burke, it would take decades for any large-scale development to take hold.  My fear is that it would end up like Buffalo's waterfront, with blah suburban-looking townhomes basically sitting there on an island by themselves (see:  https://www.google.com/maps/place/Waterfront,+Buffalo,+NY/@42.8874386,-78.8880327,3a,75y,338.18h,92.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAiOwdYPeLki4PQJGk8H_aA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d313b672e10933:0x6eccdfbfbfa5f64a!8m2!3d42.8867485!4d-78.8885072).

 

 

So much underutilized land and lackluster rents in the city and someone wants to add more? Someone posted recently that the mall in Washington DC would fit on Burke lakefront airport land.

So much underutilized land and lackluster rents in the city and someone wants to add more? Someone posted recently that the mall in Washington DC would fit on Burke lakefront airport land.

 

Here's what Burke looks like compared to Central Park in Manhattan.

Look at how the city wants to use the land right around Burke: zoning an outlet mall which belongs in Streetsboro.

 

No guarantee with Burke closed this will become some urban nirvana or even a well-kept park. If some of the land were to become a park I think Metroparks has to play a role.

Look at how the city wants to use the land right around Burke: zoning for an outlet mall which belongs in Streetsboro.

 

No guarantee with Burke closed this will become some urban nirvana or even a well-kept park. If some of the land were to become a park I think Metroparks has to play a role.

 

Cleveland Metroparks Burke Reservation.  Let's get it done.  ;)

^I'm not certain the Metroparks would be willing to undertake such an effort.

 

In all seriousness, the best move might be to wait for an administration change and approach the Dept of Agriculture of Dept of the Interior

^I'm not certain the Metroparks would be willing to undertake such an effort.

 

In all seriousness, the best move might be to wait for an administration change and approach the Dept of Agriculture of Dept of the Interior

 

This lakefront parcel is so large it's hard to believe some, if not most, of it would become parkland. I just don't see the Hong Kong waterfront rising from Burke.

 

I get we're joking around but I'm not quite sure why Metroparks operating a large lakefront park is such a crazy idea, especially after Edgewater's transformation.

 

Do we prefer the city of Cleveland to operate a lakefront park?

 

 

As long as there are huge swaths of surface parking lots in the middle of downtown, Burke should remain an airport

^Or Burke should just remain an airport until teleportation becomes possible.

 

Burke is such an underutilized asset... anyone could see the purpose for an airport downtown when Cleveland was a major player when it comes to corporate headquarters.  I'm convinced that Burke could be part of the sell to businesses to bring them back downtown again.  Free landing fees for any business that relocates downtown with x amount of employees, along with whatever tax incentives the region and state is willing to employ. There you have it.

^Or Burke should just remain an airport until teleportation becomes possible.

 

Burke is such an underutilized asset... anyone could see the purpose for an airport downtown when Cleveland was a major player when it comes to corporate headquarters.  I'm convinced that Burke could be part of the sell to businesses to bring them back downtown again.  Free landing fees for any business that relocates downtown with x amount of employees, along with whatever tax incentives the region and state is willing to employ. There you have it.

 

Doesn't that usually only work for large airports, though. Like Boston's Logan?

^Dunno... but it would be interesting to find out.  Do other cities allow free landing fees for businesses downtown, at an airport which is located downtown?  If free landing fees are actually allowed (or possible), it could give Cleveland a competitive advantage over other cities.  As I look out at the empty Burke now, I don't get how city/regional leaders don't utilize Burke (and every other underutilized Cleveland asset) to the max in order to draw businesses (and people) here. 

^Dunno... but it would be interesting to find out.  Do other cities allow free landing fees for businesses downtown, at an airport which is located downtown?  If free landing fees are actually allowed (or possible), it could give Cleveland a competitive advantage over other cities.  As I look out at the empty Burke now, I don't get how city/regional leaders don't utilize Burke (and every other underutilized Cleveland asset) to the max in order to draw businesses (and people) here.

 

It might be underutilized but if the city is charging exorbitant landing fees and bringing in cash it may not be a concern to city leaders.

 

Hopkins has higher landing fees than most US mid-sized airports which can prevent carriers from starting new services. They've come down a bit recently yet aren't near the level of other of most mid-sized nearby airports.

 

I don't know if Burke's landing fees have led to a decline in ops but wouldn't be surprised if it's the same situation.

 

I know there were security concerns for private airports after 9/11. Why I'm not a big fan of what Scene did here: using pre-9/11 statistics as a comparison to what is happening now for private aviation. Dynamics have changed quite a bit.

 

 

Do we prefer the city of Cleveland to operate a lakefront park?

 

Awww HELL NO!  The city can't even maintain the parks it has, even with staffing levels set at previous higher population levels.

 

If anyone wants to experiment with a park, I continue to maintain that there has to be some way to work with the FAA and city to install a greenway around the perimeter of Burke.  Just a strip to facilitate bikes, walks and benches, and provide an east west access point between North Coast Harbor and Gordon Park.  But I'd still want to be sure the Metroparks maintains it!

Do we prefer the city of Cleveland to operate a lakefront park?

 

Awww HELL NO!  The city can't even maintain the parks it has, even with staffing levels set at previous higher population levels.

 

If anyone wants to experiment with a park, I continue to maintain that there has to be some way to work with the FAA and city to install a greenway around the perimeter of Burke.  Just a strip to facilitate bikes, walks and benches, and provide an east west access point between North Coast Harbor and Gordon Park.  But I'd still want to be sure the Metroparks maintains it!

 

Correct. After seeing the local pols struggle with Voinovich Park and the Malls, there’s no way they have the insight or means to address something the size and complexity as Burke.

 

Hopkins has higher landing fees than most US mid-sized airports which can prevent carriers from starting new services. They've come down a bit recently yet aren't near the level of other of most mid-sized nearby airports.

 

 

Cost per enplanement at CLE is fairly reasonable if you are not United Airlines, averaging about $9 (according to a cleveland.com article from back in February).  The new carriers will come if they smell an opportunity for profit (why else would the budget carriers migrate much of their flying to CLE from CAK (which has a very low cost per enplaned passenger)).  However, I don't see Burke as a big profit generator in any circumstance.  At the end of the day, they'll just have to do a cost benefit analysis and see what usage of Burke generates the most profit (or conversely results in the smallest loss).  I doubt other considerations are even close in the minds of city hall.

^Dunno... but it would be interesting to find out.  Do other cities allow free landing fees for businesses downtown, at an airport which is located downtown?  If free landing fees are actually allowed (or possible), it could give Cleveland a competitive advantage over other cities.  As I look out at the empty Burke now, I don't get how city/regional leaders don't utilize Burke (and every other underutilized Cleveland asset) to the max in order to draw businesses (and people) here. 

 

Maybe it's just because having a small downtown airport isn't necessarily a big incentive for businesses to relocate?

Do we prefer the city of Cleveland to operate a lakefront park?

 

Awww HELL NO!  The city can't even maintain the parks it has, even with staffing levels set at previous higher population levels.

 

If anyone wants to experiment with a park, I continue to maintain that there has to be some way to work with the FAA and city to install a greenway around the perimeter of Burke.  Just a strip to facilitate bikes, walks and benches, and provide an east west access point between North Coast Harbor and Gordon Park.  But I'd still want to be sure the Metroparks maintains it!

 

Correct. After seeing the local pols struggle with Voinovich Park and the Malls, there’s no way they have the insight or means to address something the size and complexity as Burke.

 

After the success of Edgewater, I would hope they've learned that they should let Cleveland Metroparks do it if any future opportunities arise.

 

Hopkins has higher landing fees than most US mid-sized airports which can prevent carriers from starting new services. They've come down a bit recently yet aren't near the level of other of most mid-sized nearby airports.

 

 

Cost per enplanement at CLE is fairly reasonable if you are not United Airlines, averaging about $9 (according to a cleveland.com article from back in February).  The new carriers will come if they smell an opportunity for profit (why else would the budget carriers migrate much of their flying to CLE from CAK (which has a very low cost per enplaned passenger)).  However, I don't see Burke as a big profit generator in any circumstance.  At the end of the day, they'll just have to do a cost benefit analysis and see what usage of Burke generates the most profit (or conversely results in the smallest loss).  I doubt other considerations are even close in the minds of city hall.

 

You can't pretend UA dosen't exist. CPE is almost $20 on average. Pretty high for the infrastructure CLE has.

 

Anyway, I don't know anything about Burke and I don't believe you do either. It's all fun speculation.

Do we prefer the city of Cleveland to operate a lakefront park?

 

Awww HELL NO!  The city can't even maintain the parks it has, even with staffing levels set at previous higher population levels.

 

If anyone wants to experiment with a park, I continue to maintain that there has to be some way to work with the FAA and city to install a greenway around the perimeter of Burke.  Just a strip to facilitate bikes, walks and benches, and provide an east west access point between North Coast Harbor and Gordon Park.  But I'd still want to be sure the Metroparks maintains it!

 

Correct. After seeing the local pols struggle with Voinovich Park and the Malls, there’s no way they have the insight or means to address something the size and complexity as Burke.

 

After the success of Edgewater, I would hope they've learned that they should let Cleveland Metroparks do it if any future opportunities arise.

 

Perhaps even moreso at Villa Angela.

Do we prefer the city of Cleveland to operate a lakefront park?

 

Awww HELL NO!  The city can't even maintain the parks it has, even with staffing levels set at previous higher population levels.

 

If anyone wants to experiment with a park, I continue to maintain that there has to be some way to work with the FAA and city to install a greenway around the perimeter of Burke.  Just a strip to facilitate bikes, walks and benches, and provide an east west access point between North Coast Harbor and Gordon Park.  But I'd still want to be sure the Metroparks maintains it!

 

Correct. After seeing the local pols struggle with Voinovich Park and the Malls, there’s no way they have the insight or means to address something the size and complexity as Burke.

 

After the success of Edgewater, I would hope they've learned that they should let Cleveland Metroparks do it if any future opportunities arise.

 

Perhaps even moreso at Villa Angela.

 

Euclid Beach and Villa Angela are a 1,000% improvement under Metroparks,

Or a nice casino Mr. Gilbert was trying to build...

^Dunno... but it would be interesting to find out.  Do other cities allow free landing fees for businesses downtown, at an airport which is located downtown?  If free landing fees are actually allowed (or possible), it could give Cleveland a competitive advantage over other cities.  As I look out at the empty Burke now, I don't get how city/regional leaders don't utilize Burke (and every other underutilized Cleveland asset) to the max in order to draw businesses (and people) here. 

 

Maybe it's just because having a small downtown airport isn't necessarily a big incentive for businesses to relocate?

 

No but it may be a great incentive for a giant tech firm to open a satellite HQ.  Another opportunity missed. 

I wonder how utilized the Cleveland lakefront parks are doing currently. Outside of warm months, does Edgewater Park and Whiskey Island/Wendy Park get busy? Voinivich Park had a decent July 4th crowd but it seems underused in general. And is Gordon Park in the east side worth a visit? And what about the big one by Bratenahl? I've never been.

 

Burke should not be an airport but I just don't know if a park is something the region would realistically utilize as a whole. Maybe a military base (our enemies don't just live in warm climates, after all)?

^ On the subject of Gordon Park, there was a good article from Scene about it last fall. I never knew much about the park at all until reading this:

 

https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/a-highway-runs-through-it/Content?oid=11243699

 

 

Is there any historic imagery of Burke Lakefront out there?  I barely remember, but I was inside there only once in the 1980's when they had regularly scheduled passenger service.  I took my kids to the Women's Air and Space Museum in there a little while ago and it struck me that it was the first time in three decades that I had been there.

Do we prefer the city of Cleveland to operate a lakefront park?

 

Awww HELL NO!  The city can't even maintain the parks it has, even with staffing levels set at previous higher population levels.

 

If anyone wants to experiment with a park, I continue to maintain that there has to be some way to work with the FAA and city to install a greenway around the perimeter of Burke.  Just a strip to facilitate bikes, walks and benches, and provide an east west access point between North Coast Harbor and Gordon Park.  But I'd still want to be sure the Metroparks maintains it!

 

Correct. After seeing the local pols struggle with Voinovich Park and the Malls, there’s no way they have the insight or means to address something the size and complexity as Burke.

 

After the success of Edgewater, I would hope they've learned that they should let Cleveland Metroparks do it if any future opportunities arise.

 

Perhaps even moreso at Villa Angela.

 

Euclid Beach and Villa Angela are a 1,000% improvement under Metroparks,

 

Home of the easternmost "Cleveland" sign.

 

^ Very nice!  I need to get out to Villa Angela beach this summer.  Haven't been since the Metroparks took it over. 

I wonder how utilized the Cleveland lakefront parks are doing currently. Outside of warm months, does Edgewater Park and Whiskey Island/Wendy Park get busy? Voinivich Park had a decent July 4th crowd but it seems underused in general. And is Gordon Park in the east side worth a visit? And what about the big one by Bratenahl? I've never been.

 

Burke should not be an airport but I just don't know if a park is something the region would realistically utilize as a whole. Maybe a military base (our enemies don't just live in warm climates, after all)?

I can only say I see a lot of cars at Gordon Park (all I know of it is it's the new Edgewater hookup spot). As far as Lakefront Park, it is used mostly for fishing in the winter (although a lot of people park there to take in the lake). Dike 14 gets steady traffic all year long but I don't know how many people really know about it.

Was I dreaming this morning or wasn't there a rendering of BKL as Central Park in this thread?

^

 

So much underutilized land and lackluster rents in the city and someone wants to add more? Someone posted recently that the mall in Washington DC would fit on Burke lakefront airport land.

 

Here's what Burke looks like compared to Central Park in Manhattan.

At least last night, Burke was being used - private jets parked all over the place as high rollers flew in for the Rock Hall induction.

At least last night, Burke was being used - private jets parked all over the place as high rollers flew in for the Rock Hall induction.

 

It happens more than you think--but there are events that bring out mass quantities.  Last year during the RNC they had to shut down runway 24L/6R because they were using the entire Taxiway G for parking. 

Ultimate Shuttle (flying BKL-LUK) has sold out to OneJet, a PIT-based charter operator of small jets. I hope Ultimate can teach OneJet how to operate a decent charter airline.

NTSB Final Report is out on the crash from BKL from Dec 2016. 

 

"The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be: Controlled flight into terrain due to pilot spatial disorientation. Contributing to the accident was pilot fatigue, mode confusion related to the status of the autopilot, and negative learning transfer due to flight guidance panel and attitude indicator differences from the pilot's previous flight experience."

NTSB Final Report is out on the crash from BKL from Dec 2016. 

 

"The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be: Controlled flight into terrain due to pilot spatial disorientation. Contributing to the accident was pilot fatigue, mode confusion related to the status of the autopilot, and negative learning transfer due to flight guidance panel and attitude indicator differences from the pilot's previous flight experience."

 

I read that the pilot had been up for 17 hours on top of taking off in bad weather and near midnight. How does the FAA manage pilots like this? You think he may have had a few drinks at the game? Unfortunately they crashed in Lake Erie, but what if they had crashed on I-90, or amongst the downtown high-rises? Seems like we need some more regulation here.

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/region/2018/08/10/OneJet-subject-of-lawsuit-claiming-it-owes-the-region-more-flights/stories/201808100180

 

It looks like Ultimate Shuttle's merger with Pittsburgh's OneJet is off and OneJet itself is near bankruptcy.  Ultimate insulated itself well and should return to its status quo ante.

 

OneJet had a nice idea (small planes on high margin, business-heavy routes), and perhaps it could have worked; but they never found the right airplane to make it profitable.

OneJet used seven-seat aircraft didn't they?  That's really tiny--seems unsustainable. I'm glad the onejet-utlimate deal is off. Ultimate seems like a good operation. I've taken their BKL-LUK flight and it was one-time, good on-board service, well-priced, and hassle-free. I would certainly take them to more places if they offered them out of BKL.

^

 

So much underutilized land and lackluster rents in the city and someone wants to add more? Someone posted recently that the mall in Washington DC would fit on Burke lakefront airport land.

 

Here's what Burke looks like compared to Central Park in Manhattan.

 

https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/lies-damn-lies-and-the-450-acres-of-prime-lakefront-real-estate-that-is-burke-lakefront-airport/Content?oid=16931820

 

Hopefully as our city continues to develop they’ll realize that we don’t need this airport. All of the lies and excuses for keeping it open are pathetic. The county airport in Richmond Hts can sustain both its traffic and Burke traffic. Or the entire empty terminal at Hopkins. So many cities have utilized former airports and turned them into great developments. Mueller in Austin and Stapleton in Austin are great examples. A fraction of Burke could be turned into prime downtown development that would surely attract investors. A large portion could be reused for public space. Cleveland officials are stuck in the past, which is why as a soon to be MUPD graduate from CSU I’m not sure if I want to stick around.

Austin and Denver needed the space because they are growing cities, and rapidly at that. In Cleveland, fill the parking craters downtown first. Maybe someday downtown will be bursting at the seams and will justify expanding its footprint. Maybe.

Austin and Denver needed the space because they are growing cities, and rapidly at that. In Cleveland, fill the parking craters downtown first. Maybe someday downtown will be bursting at the seams and will justify expanding its footprint. Maybe.

 

This is true. I would still begin the process of removing the airport. And redevelop the space as geeen space with space reserved for future development. We have to plan for the future, not wait for it to happen. There’s already plans for lakefront development (Cumberland). Harbor Vernandas could have been a taller building.

 

Hopefully as our city continues to develop they’ll realize that we don’t need this airport. All of the lies and excuses for keeping it open are pathetic. The county airport in Richmond Hts can sustain both its traffic and Burke traffic...

 

This is entirely not true. Many of the planes that use BKL could not use CGF. Not all planes are tiny turboprops or small business jets...

 

Hopefully as our city continues to develop they’ll realize that we don’t need this airport. All of the lies and excuses for keeping it open are pathetic. The county airport in Richmond Hts can sustain both its traffic and Burke traffic...

 

This is entirely not true. Many of the planes that use BKL could not use CGF. Not all planes are tiny turboprops or small business jets...

 

I’m sure there is a solution. Cuyahoga County Airport runway is nearly as long as BKL and there’s room to extend it. Plus, Hopkins is underutilized and has plenty of room. 

 

“According to the Federal Aviation Administration's Air Traffic Activity Data Base System (ATADS), Burke had 100,321 takeoffs and landings in 2000. By 2010, that number was down to 53,987. Last year, 2017, it had basically dropped off to 38,571. So between 2000 and 2017, Burke's flight numbers have dropped by 62 percent.

 

Those are striking numbers made even more striking by this fact: About a third of those 38,571 takeoffs and landings are for the pilot flight schools located at Burke, which has nothing to do with business, travel or shipping of goods.”

 

Keeping it open for 25,000 flights a year. Hopkins has 122K in 2017 flights down from 332K in 2000. Cuyahoga is down from 65k in 2000 to 20k in 2017. Keeping 450 acres on prime downtown lakefront land reserved for a useless airport is one of the many mistakes Cleveland has made.

^There's more to aviation than runway length. You think people in those far east suburbs want daily jets including occasional 737s, 757s, etc. flying close to their homes? Plus its far from Downtown. Cleveland needs to grow. Killing a viable airport that is the 6th or so busiest in the state is not a method to accomplish that.

^There's more to aviation than runway length. You think people in those far east suburbs want daily jets including occasional 737s, 757s, etc. flying close to their homes? Plus its far from Downtown. Cleveland needs to grow. Killing a viable airport that is the 6th or so busiest in the state is not a method to accomplish that.

 

Wasting our lakefront space in downtown isn’t viable. Neither is the stadium. Two huge mistakes city leaders made. The 450 acres of lakefront space should be put to best use for the two million people who live in the region. Not the few thousand who can afford to fly in and out of Burke. Not for the occasional 737 or 757.  There are plenty of very intelligent urban planners who can give you a laundry list of reasons why Burke isn’t the “highest and best use”.

There are plenty of very intelligent urban planners who can give you a laundry list of reasons why Burke isn’t the “highest and best use”.

 

And a park is?