1 minute ago, mack34 said:

I'm confused as to why they would pick a site without checking soil.  Considering all the work they did on the superblock, why would the same due diligence not be done there?

I hate to be so cynical, but tax breaks and/or state/fed remediation? I could see the city, county, and state stepping in to save this, seems like a good chess move on SW's part? 

Question @KJP...given the timing of your two most recent blogs, was this information just uncovered in the past few days or were some of your sources holding back information?   They seemed so sure in your first blog that the R and D was going on Scranton in your initial post last week.

Edited January 13, 20205 yr by Htsguy

1 minute ago, GISguy said:

I hate to be so cynical, but tax breaks and/or state/fed remediation? I could see the city, county, and state stepping in to save this, seems like a good chess move on SW's part? 

Thats my thought also!!

I personally think its a smoke screen by SW.  i think they are using KJP to negotiate better pricing on whatever they are looking at.   I still like the tower city auditorium location for the new R&D facilities. 

There was soil pollution on the Scranton Flats section of the Towpath that required mediation, it really shouldn't be a surprise. 

9 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

Question @KJP...given the timing of your two most recent blogs, was this information just uncovered in the past few days or were some of your sources holding back information?   They seemed so sure in your first blog that the R and D was going on Scranton in your initial post last week.

 

@Htsguy This was either something that was a late-discovery and/or being kept quiet or SHW was expecting the city/state to fund the remediation of the Scranton Peninsula site and the city/state hasn't responded as quickly as SHW would have liked. A source told me cryptically "This is all about money."

Edited January 13, 20205 yr by KJP

12 minutes ago, mack34 said:

I'm confused as to why they would pick a site without checking soil.  Considering all the work they did on the superblock, why would the same due diligence not be done there?

 

They haven't officially picked any site for anything yet.  

1 minute ago, KJP said:

 

This was either something that was a late-discovery and/or being kept quiet or SHW was expecting the city/state to fund the remediation of the Scranton Peninsula site and it hadn't responded as quickly as SHW would have liked. A source told me cryptically "This is all about money."

I'm shocked?

4 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

 

They haven't officially picked any site for anything yet.  

 

And even when someone does "pick" a site, it doesn't necessarily mean anything....cough -- new CPD HQ -- cough cough....

They should build the R&D site on Gilbert's river view site

14 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

@Htsguy This was either something that was a late-discovery and/or being kept quiet or SHW was expecting the city/state to fund the remediation of the Scranton Peninsula site and the city/state hasn't responded as quickly as SHW would have liked. A source told me cryptically "This is all about money."

So they’re negotiating with the city through your blog essentially lol

1 minute ago, inlovewithCLE said:

So they’re negotiating with the city through your blog essentially lol

 

I can guarantee that they are negotiating with the city directly and using leaks to @KJP to exert additional pressure. My assumption is that they got the subsidy they wanted for the HQ by putting out of state sites in the mix. Now they are pitting Brecksville against Cleveland to get more from Cleveland. Since these are both county sites I don't think the county will get too involved on the R&D site. 

53 minutes ago, simplythis said:

Can someone explain to me why they can't build this on the weston superblock as it was originally

mentioned by kjp.

 

They could if they wanted to. It would mean a lot of bigger and more expensive buildings, however. The HQ could be put entirely or almost entirely on the Jacobs lot, leaving perhaps as much as 200,000 to 300,000 square feet of offices, a million square feet of parking decks and the 350,000-square-foot R&D facility for the Weston lots. But this would likely be much more expensive for SHW -- even though they could write a check for cash to pay for it. But they don't want to and that's how the rich stay rich.

Edited January 13, 20205 yr by KJP

5 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

They could if they wanted to. It would mean a lot of bigger and more expensive buildings, however. The HQ could be put entirely or almost entirely on the Jacobs lot, leaving perhaps as much as 200,000 to 300,000 square feet of offices, a million square feet of parking decks and the 350,000-square-foot R&D facility for the Weston lots. But this would likely be much more expensive for SHW -- even though they could write a check for cash to pay for it. But they don't want to and that's how the rich stay rich.

I bet @jbee1982 will help pay for it if it means a taller building on the Jacobs lot.?

The news from KJP this morning is a major disappointment.  Does it mean that Scranton Peninsula site could be a dead zone for decades instead of a dynamic new neighborhood?  It does seem strange that after all the due diligence by SHW, we get this last minute curveball on "soil".  Unless this is a negotiating strategy over money.  If the preferred R & D site is truly out - I would hope that SHW would locate all its facilities on the sufficiently large Weston property.  It would mean a bulkier, possibly higher presence on the west side of the square.  I agree with other posters that the city should do whatever possible to keep the whole enchilada downtown.  And Sherwin Williams commitment to Cleveland will be much more impressive if they don't move 1/6th of the jobs out to the burbs. 

Edited January 13, 20205 yr by CleveFan

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

I hate to be so cynical, but tax breaks and/or state/fed remediation? I could see the city, county, and state stepping in to save this, seems like a good chess move on SW's part? 

 

It has to be federal.   We're talking CERCLA here, which is pretty much the main driver of industrial sprawl in America for the last 40 years.

 

With Lou Stokes or Steve LaTourrette in Congress, maybe.  

 

We don't have that kind of clout anymore.

 

More in a bit....

I'm as confused as anyone by the timing of this news. Why were these pollutants discovered so late? If they were discovered earlier, then why has the city/state been slow to respond? Is SHW just dangling the threat of a move to Brecksville to light a fire under their behinds?

It's inconceivable to me that they wouldn't have expected the soil to be polluted. In any experience I've had with industrial sites/industrial rivers, it's pretty much an initial assumption that you'll be encountering PAHs, PCBs, and toxic metal concentrations and then it's just a fun bonus if the levels happen to be low or you find no concentrations.

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

 

I sure hope powers that be are leveraging GIS to find a good site IN the city. It'd be a relatively simple analysis to locate something like this within the city (looking at utilities, land needs, safety, etc.), but only if they're given the proper information and data. I'd hate to see this end up in Brecksville.

 

Would you prefer it was in Minneapolis?  Or perhaps Dallas?

 

Hasn’t it been long known, or at least suspected, that the Scranton peninsula has soil stability issues?  I’m not a civ-E, but I’ve read plenty of references to same here.   

I have been an environmental engineer, part time.   My dad was Ferro’s environmental and safety director, one of the pioneers in the field.   I’m speaking here with close to the authority Ken has on railroads.

 

CERCLA issues can and have been found late in the game, and more often than not they are show stoppers.   This is exactly why the Opportunity Corridor was designed like it was.  And yes, if you could get SW interested in some of that cleaned land, that would be ideal.   God knows the area could use the jobs.

 

And yes, it’s early days.   CERCLA issues on the peninsula are not confirmed.  Let's hope they don't exist, or are minor enough to make an NFA quick and reasonably cheap.  But if they exist, that means whoever tried to sell SW on this piece of land molested the canine in truly epic fashion.

 

There is no way in Creation that a company with SW’s deep pockets is going to take a chance on assuming liability for someone else’s decades old mess.  It would be fiduciary malpractice on an epic scale.  And that means the city can either spend millions clearing it, or they can do what inner ring suburbs do when they can’t market a piece of land, and build a “pocket park”.  Because no one else will touch it now.  The alarm has been raised.

 

If there’s no cleaned and suitable spot in Midtown or on the OC, Brecksville is probably the region’s best bet.  It’s in Cuyahoga County.   It’s right off 77.  It can be made transit accesible. It’s huge, and not old industrial property. To attempt to undercut them would be grossly counterproductive.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the very good.

4 hours ago, jbee1982 said:

We need the last open space filled with a tower that is at least as tall as Erieview tower. Otherwise, the skyline will be lopsided. I'd rather have an empty parking lot than a building that screws up our skyline. I'd rather wait for another building that can do the site justice. Just my opinion.

 

Where's it going to come from?  Who's going to build it?   I'm very much a believer in the taller the better, but someone has to be big enough to pay for it.

I agree. This may be an opportunity to get concessions. Given the extensive boring/sampling done on PS/Weston, I find it inconceivable that the same would not have been done on the Scranton site, especially given the history of the flats and the river. SW may be a paint manufacturer, but they're also experts in organic/inorganic/polymer chemistry. They know the impact of industrial pollutants. After all, they got their start right there on the Cuyahoga River.

Edited January 14, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

12 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Would you prefer it was in Minneapolis?  Or perhaps Dallas?

 

Hasn’t it been long known, or at least suspected, that the Scranton peninsula has soil stability issues?  I’m not a civ-E, but I’ve read plenty of references to same here.   

I have been an environmental engineer, part time.   My dad was Ferro’s environmental and safety director, one of the pioneers in the field.   I’m speaking here with close to the authority Ken has on railroads.

 

CERCLA issues can and have been found late in the game, and more often than not they are show stoppers.   This is exactly why the Opportunity Corridor was designed like it was.  And yes, if you could get SW interested in some of that cleaned land, that would be ideal.   God knows the area could use the jobs.

 

And yes, it’s early days.   CERCLA issues on the peninsula are not confirmed.  Let's hope they don't exist, or are minor enough to make an NFA quick and reasonably cheap.  But if they exist, that means whoever tried to sell SW on this piece of land molested the canine in truly epic fashion.

 

There is no way in Creation that a company with SW’s deep pockets is going to take a chance on assuming liability for someone else’s decades old mess.  It would be fiduciary malpractice on an epic scale.  And that means the city can either spend millions clearing it, or they can do what inner ring suburbs do when they can’t market a piece of land, and build a “pocket park”.  Because no one else will touch it now.  The alarm has been raised.

 

If there’s no cleaned and suitable spot in Midtown or on the OC, Brecksville is probably the region’s best bet.  It’s in Cuyahoga County.   It’s right off 77.  It can be made transit accesible. It’s huge, and not old industrial property. To attempt to undercut them would be grossly counterproductive.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the very good.

I think it’s reasonable for people on a site called “Urban Ohio” to not want a highly prized employment asset to end up 16 miles from the city center. It’s not “good”. Pushing more jobs further out to the fringes has countless negative externalities. IMO it’s a wash whether these jobs end up Brecksville or Ljubljana. I don’t care nearly as much about relative regional strength as I do about the viability of the urban core, and I don’t think the correlation between the two is nearly as strong as I’m sure some would suggest. 

E Roccs comment "because the alarm has been raised" is what scared me when I first read KJPs blog. If SW dosent touch this land, who will?

I agree if SW doesn't touch Scranton, what does that mean for future development of the area? 

 

With that said, as much of a nice surprise as it was to hear last week that this location was in consideration for r&d, this wasn't a location too many people thought of.  So as disappointing as this news is, we still have a other locations that may not pose as such a "risk" as the sp.  What about more dense and taller development on the Weston Block (that makes us forumers happy)?  You can't get much closer to your new headquarters than that.  What about other parcels in the immediate area? There's another lot on St. Clair and West 9th.  There are a few smaller parking lot parcels that exist in the immediate area.  I am not sure how these parcels are shaped and who owns them.  But based on their footprint, maybe building a little taller would be the way to go here.  As we have discuss on here, it's easy for us to tell a company how to spend their money.  This area is obviously going to change dramatically in the next few years which is exciting to think about.  These parking lot parcels that are not the Weston Block seem like good candidates.  Look at what Amazon has done around their location near Downtown Seattle.  

11 minutes ago, Jenny said:

E Roccs comment "because the alarm has been raised" is what scared me when I first read KJPs blog. If SW dosent touch this land, who will?

 

It could turn into a river version of Dyke 14, undeveloped and useful for birds & wildlife with walking paths, etc.

 

https://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/433

 

 But heck, here's hoping this soil issue can be settled quickly and safely on the local level. 

41 minutes ago, Jenny said:

 If SW dosent touch this land, who will?

That's why I feel the city, state and fed need to take responsibility in cleaning it up now while there is still incentive the R&D location could be relocated there. 

13 minutes ago, Mildtraumatic said:

That's why I feel the city, state and fed need to take responsibility in cleaning it up now while there is still incentive the R&D location could be relocated there. 

 

Theoretically this would be a perfect project for JobsOhio's revitalization program... The common complaint is that they're too stingy with the money unless specific jobs are already lined up for a site. Which, in this case, they would be.

Edited January 13, 20205 yr by mu2010

1 hour ago, bumsquare said:

I think it’s reasonable for people on a site called “Urban Ohio” to not want a highly prized employment asset to end up 16 miles from the city center. It’s not “good”. Pushing more jobs further out to the fringes has countless negative externalities. IMO it’s a wash whether these jobs end up Brecksville or Ljubljana. I don’t care nearly as much about relative regional strength as I do about the viability of the urban core, and I don’t think the correlation between the two is nearly as strong as I’m sure some would suggest. 

 

It's Cuyahoga County.   It's on RTA's turf.  Ljublana is neither.   Likewise Minneapolis.

1 hour ago, Jenny said:

E Roccs comment "because the alarm has been raised" is what scared me when I first read KJPs blog. If SW dosent touch this land, who will?

 

Exactly.   If someone in local government got them to publicly look at it, all but commit to it, then pull out at the last second that is a foul up as bad as Jackson's rumored blow-off of Pixar.

Just out of curiosity, I checked to see where SHW's main competitor PPG's R&D facility is located. It's in Alison Park/Hampton Township. According to Google, it's a 13-mile, 22-minute drive in normal traffic up state routes 28 and 8 from PPG's HQ in downtown Pittsburgh. A multi-structured, connected campus atop an exurban hillside....

 

An article with photos about it:

https://www.geekwire.com/2018/inside-ppgs-secretive-rd-lab-paint-giant-creates-high-tech-coatings-aid-self-driving-cars/

 

Edited January 13, 20205 yr by KJP

I've been there many times......Still doesnt make me want SW to build in Brecksville.  

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Just out of curiosity, I checked to see where SHW's main competitor PPG's R&D facility is located. It's in Alison Park/Hampton Township. According to Google, it's a 13-mile, 22-minute drive in normal traffic up state routes 28 and 8 from PPG's HQ in downtown Pittsburgh. A multi-structured, connected campus atop an exurban hillside....

 

An article with photos about it:

https://www.geekwire.com/2018/inside-ppgs-secretive-rd-lab-paint-giant-creates-high-tech-coatings-aid-self-driving-cars/

 

As I had previously mentioned upthread, whichever site is selected, as indicated here with PPG's R&D facilities, public access will be extremely limited and security will be tight. The need for high security will impact R&D site selection.

Edited January 13, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

10 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

There isn't any environmental problem that $$ can't fix.  The City of Cleveland needs to step forward and remediate this land to get the payroll taxes on 1000 new employees.

 

Do I thing Mayor Prosperity can do this? 

 

No.

Why do these things always fall on the public? We’re always so quick to lick corporate boots.

2 hours ago, KJP said:

Just out of curiosity, I checked to see where SHW's main competitor PPG's R&D facility is located. It's in Alison Park/Hampton Township. According to Google, it's a 13-mile, 22-minute drive in normal traffic up state routes 28 and 8 from PPG's HQ in downtown Pittsburgh. A multi-structured, connected campus atop an exurban hillside....

 

An article with photos about it:

https://www.geekwire.com/2018/inside-ppgs-secretive-rd-lab-paint-giant-creates-high-tech-coatings-aid-self-driving-cars/

 

That looks really tight and secure. Like the type of security you see these corporations have in the movies. You wouldn't be able to get that at Scranton.

Edited January 13, 20205 yr by Mildtraumatic

22 minutes ago, Mildtraumatic said:

That looks really tight and secure. Like the type of security you see these corporations have in the movies. You wouldn't be able to get that at Scranton.

Weston and Bedrock sites could be even more of a challenge. At least Scranton is somewhat insulated, like Breen.

Edited January 13, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

Might be late here, but wasn't the R&D supposed to be included in the HQ facility on Public Square?  

 

Something tells me this whole project isn't happening.

11 minutes ago, wpcc88 said:

Might be late here, but wasn't the R&D supposed to be included in the HQ facility on Public Square?  

 

Something tells me this whole project isn't happening.

Very late.   Please keep up.?

3 hours ago, KJP said:

Just out of curiosity, I checked to see where SHW's main competitor PPG's R&D facility is located. It's in Alison Park/Hampton Township. According to Google, it's a 13-mile, 22-minute drive in normal traffic up state routes 28 and 8 from PPG's HQ in downtown Pittsburgh. A multi-structured, connected campus atop an exurban hillside....

 

An article with photos about it:

https://www.geekwire.com/2018/inside-ppgs-secretive-rd-lab-paint-giant-creates-high-tech-coatings-aid-self-driving-cars/

 

As someone who grew up in Allison Park, I feel that I should add that this facility is extremely isolated. Very few people there even realize it exists. And being isolated and away from the city, it provides little real benefit for Pittsburgh. Cleveland can and should do a lot better.

58 minutes ago, tykaps said:

As someone who grew up in Allison Park, I feel that I should add that this facility is extremely isolated. Very few people there even realize it exists. And being isolated and away from the city, it provides little real benefit for Pittsburgh. Cleveland can and should do a lot better.

Sherwin-Williams should do better 

31 minutes ago, bumsquare said:

Sherwin-Williams should do better 

I’m not in the field SHW is in, and I don’t like talking about things that I don’t know. Anybody who has expertise in their field, is there anybody that can say if there’s an environmental reason for the R&D site to be isolated?

6 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

I don’t like talking about things that I don’t know.

First time anyone on the internet has said that. 

 

If the peninsula won't work why couldn't Sherwin just a build a parking garage and new R&D facility on the parking lots for their existing R&D facility? I didn't realize how much room they had there until KJP posted the map. It maybe not be as easy as building a new site, but if they're committed to downtown, then this doesn't seem like it would be too much of a stretch to make happen. 

1 hour ago, 17thState said:

First time anyone on the internet has said that. 

 

If the peninsula won't work why couldn't Sherwin just a build a parking garage and new R&D facility on the parking lots for their existing R&D facility? I didn't realize how much room they had there until KJP posted the map. It maybe not be as easy as building a new site, but if they're committed to downtown, then this doesn't seem like it would be too much of a stretch to make happen. 

 

The short answer is, putting the R&D on the Weston lots is not what SHW wants to do.

14 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

The short answer is, putting the R&D on the Weston lots is not what SHW wants to do.

Sorry, I meant on the existing Breen parking lots. I hadn't realized how much of that land is parking/grass. I know it might involve a bit more of a shuffle logistically than a completely new site, but if you build a garage I'd think they'd have plenty of room to develop around the existing buildings. 

6 hours ago, Terdolph said:

Because the jobs will go to Brecksville if we don't. 

 

It's that simple.

 

Terdolph

worth noting, Brecksville is probably throwing everything and the kitchen sink at this opportunity as well... how much would it mean to the VA development to get a major corporate user like this as an anchor tenant...

14 hours ago, Terdolph said:

There isn't any environmental problem that $$ can't fix.  The City of Cleveland needs to step forward and remediate this land to get the payroll taxes on 1000 new employees.

 

Do I thing Mayor Prosperity can do this? 

 

No.

 

Could be a lot of $$$.   CERCLA is a jobs program ("gravy train" might be a better word) for lawyers, consultants, cleanup firms, etc.   Time can be a factor as well, the industry isn't very familiar with the term "urgency".   I'm not sure Cleveland can afford it, either.  Then throw in possible soil instability.  Which could indeed be why stuff ended up there, because it couldn't be built upon.
 

Companies have learned not to trust the government as well.  Look up the history of Taylor Chair in Bedford.   Very much did the right thing and not only built around the corner from their old place, but on a pretty severe brownfield (SK Wellman).   State decided not to chip in as promised, after the fact.   Put a 200 year old company out of business.

I spoke to my dad last night, whose resume in this area is very strong.  He was very unsurprised that the peninsula might have CERCLA issues and definitely thinks that Brecksville is their best bet.   His tech center was in Independence.

10 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said:

I’m not in the field SHW is in, and I don’t like talking about things that I don’t know. Anybody who has expertise in their field, is there anybody that can say if there’s an environmental reason for the R&D site to be isolated?

 

A paint company is basically a chemical company.  I've been saying for awhile, do you really want to have to evacuate a skyscraper because of a toluene leak on the 27th floor?

 

Safeguards can be put into place, but they are expensive.

7 hours ago, gottaplan said:

worth noting, Brecksville is probably throwing everything and the kitchen sink at this opportunity as well... how much would it mean to the VA development to get a major corporate user like this as an anchor tenant...

 

It's also worth noting that when the VA shut down, those jobs went to Wade Park.

Four posts stacked? What is this my mom's instagram? 

 

To return to the topic, considering the TC site was in play until recently, the announcement feels like a play for cleanup incentives. If they wanted Brecksville, they could have it. 

2 minutes ago, math said:

Four posts stacked? What is this my mom's instagram? 

 

To return to the topic, considering the TC site was in play until recently, the announcement feels like a play for cleanup incentives. If they wanted Brecksville, they could have it. 

 

No it's my limited time on here.  Work break sort of thing.

11 minutes ago, math said:

Four posts stacked? What is this my mom's instagram? 

 

To return to the topic, considering the TC site was in play until recently, the announcement feels like a play for cleanup incentives. If they wanted Brecksville, they could have it. 

 

My understanding is that SHW doesn't want vertical buildings for the R&D. They want the buildings spread out. If the existing R&D is any guide, consider a max of about 3-4 stories. Just looking at a map, if they want things spread out and are willing to consider the Bedrock site for the R&D, they might have to build over Canal Road. That gets expensive.