I think some of this "cleanup" talk is being overstated.  I've done developments at some really bad sites.  In worst cases, a builder would have to "cut & cap" the site with approximately 3' of "clean fill".  That's not an astronomical fee.  Entire Battery Park site had this done.  They still managed to be profitable.

7 minutes ago, gottaplan said:

I think some of this "cleanup" talk is being overstated.  I've done developments at some really bad sites.  In worst cases, a builder would have to "cut & cap" the site with approximately 3' of "clean fill".  That's not an astronomical fee.  Entire Battery Park site had this done.  They still managed to be profitable.

Battery Park also had to be cleaned up to higher standard because it was a residential use.  I'd imagine that R & D uses wouldn't require the same standard. 

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong- but didn't Forest City clean the land back in the 80s?  I seem to remember reading that somewhere...

 

Anyways, the City should definitely do everything they can to come up with the money and clean the land.  It's not like the money wouldn't be recouped through taxes, and it's not like the City could just let 1,000 jobs walk.

16 minutes ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong- but didn't Forest City clean the land back in the 80s?  I seem to remember reading that somewhere...

 

Anyways, the City should definitely do everything they can to come up with the money and clean the land.  It's not like the money wouldn't be recouped through taxes, and it's not like the City could just let 1,000 jobs walk.

 

The Forest City land is now the Thunderbird west of the railroad line that used to cross the river next to Carter Road. SHW's R&D site is/was east of that railroad line.

@KJP do you know for sure if the and R and D issue will again delay the announcement which you originally felt was going to be in two weeks?  I think you suggested in your second blog article that it might. 

No I don't know for sure. What I was told last week from a source that usually isn't very chatty was that the announcement would be in two weeks. So now that's next week.

 

I don't know what to make of this information about the Scranton Peninsula site. Guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens next.

3 hours ago, KJP said:

 

My understanding is that SHW doesn't want vertical buildings for the R&D. They want the buildings spread out. If the existing R&D is any guide, consider a max of about 3-4 stories. Just looking at a map, if they want things spread out and are willing to consider the Bedrock site for the R&D, they might have to build over Canal Road. That gets expensive.

 

Just an idea.  One block alone of the two Weston SuperBlocks is a little over 100k sqft, if they're willing to build 3-4 stories then that should work fine.  That would leave them with the second of the two SuperBlocks, along with the smaller Weston lot to the north of the SuperBlocks for the rest of the buildings and parking garages.... and the Jacobs lot for the HQ. 

 

It sounds closer to the plan we originally expected, and it would cause more height from all buildings involved(except maybe the R&D building that would only be 3-4 stories, unless they included parking above or below). 

 

I personally think this would be the best way to go(easy to say when its not my money), however, this would put R&D and the HQ as close as possible.  It may negate the open space/walking gardens idea(unless they built higher and left room on the ground), but at the same time they would be one block from public square... I feel like that is a great walking space - plus it would activate the square with more pedestrians.

 

Thoughts? 

Sounds good.  Building of 3-4 stories would blend in well with the existing Warehouse District buildings, especially those along W 6th and St. Clair.  And it would really be nice having the R&D jobs downtown.  

Edited January 14, 20205 yr by skiwest

I find it crazy that they wouldn't be able to get creative and figure something out to keep the R&D location close to the HQ site by either cleaning the Scranton location or finding something else versus putting it in freaking Brecksville?? With all the available empty land in Cleveland are there no other locations near downtown where multiple lower story buildings couldn't be found, rehabbed, added to or built? What about anywhere near midtown, flats, the lakefront, around University Circle or any number of sites. Someplace where a short walk, Uber, bike ride, scooter, RTA or Healthline trip could get anyone there fairly fast versus getting in a car and driving 30 minutes one way to deal with people in Brecksville....now that is just lame. If they do pick Brecksville something is fishy and it's not because they can't figure out an alternative (and don't go there with the hazardous materials scare or whatever).  Some people on here are always jumping in whenever possible to push the burbs and I say BS, all of SW needs to be and stay in Cleveland where it was founded and thrived.  Hoping this is just another hair on fire situation like we had when there were rumors of SW leaving completely. They obviously wanted to keep both locations close by choosing Scranton, if it won't work in that location then finding the next available site in Cleveland should be doable. 

20 minutes ago, sfbob said:

I find it crazy that they wouldn't be able to get creative and figure something out to keep the R&D location close to the HQ site by either cleaning the Scranton location or finding something else versus putting it in freaking Brecksville?? With all the available empty land in Cleveland are there no other locations near downtown where multiple lower story buildings couldn't be found, rehabbed, added to or built? What about anywhere near midtown, flats, the lakefront, around University Circle or any number of sites.

 

Their reported first choice on Scranton sited 350k square feet of space on about 400k square feet of land. It will also possibly require on the order of 1,000 parking spaces. I'm relatively sure we were/are going to kind of hate what they proposed for Scranton peninsula.

 

Sell employees on the flats with amazing views of downtown? Sure. Sell them the Forgotten Triangle? Whole 'nother story.

My understanding is that it is very likely that R&D is going to Brecksville. I don't know if this is a bluff to extract more from the city or whether the city even has funds to make Scranton work. 

5 minutes ago, freefourur said:

My understanding is that it is very likely that R&D is going to Brecksville. I don't know if this is a bluff to extract more from the city or whether the city even has funds to make Scranton work. 

Is that from multiple sources?

one source

2 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

I wish I could agree with you.  I have no confidence in His Honor's office to handle this competently.

They need to have money available to do it. I don't have a source at the city to know whether they do or not. 

The city's income tax revenue has risen 35 percent since 2016, and income taxes account for two-thirds of the city's budget. They have the money.

 

Even so, if SHW wants a sprawling, clean site that's ready right now, the Brecksville site will be hard for SHW to pass up. And while it could represent up to 1,000 jobs, those jobs are an opportunity cost to Cleveland. "Only" 400 of them right now are in Cleveland. The rest are in Warrensville Heights, Minneapolis and possibly a few more jobs elsewhere.

2 minutes ago, KJP said:

The city's income tax revenue has risen 35 percent since 2016, and income taxes account for two-thirds of the city's budget. They have the money.

 

Even so, if SHW wants a sprawling, clean site that's ready right now, the Brecksville site will be hard for SHW to pass up. And while it could represent up to 1,000 jobs, those jobs are an opportunity cost to Cleveland. "Only" 400 of them right now are in Cleveland. The rest are in Warrensville Heights, Minneapolis and possibly a few more jobs elsewhere.

400 jobs would still be a blow to cleveland but they might make it up in increased jobs at HQ. 

10 hours ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong- but didn't Forest City clean the land back in the 80s?  I seem to remember reading that somewhere...

 

Anyways, the City should definitely do everything they can to come up with the money and clean the land.  It's not like the money wouldn't be recouped through taxes, and it's not like the City could just let 1,000 jobs walk.

 

 

no, but it seems they found out its not too bad. the history going back is lumberyards and a republic nut & bolt plant.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2017/06/forest_city_to_sell_scranton_peninsula.html

 

I am not a moderator but the tax abatement talk should probably be continued in another thread. I'd like to see this thread kept open because news will be moving quickly on this and we all want to stay informed. 

3 hours ago, mrnyc said:

 

 

no, but it seems they found out its not too bad. the history going back is lumberyards and a republic nut & bolt plant.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2017/06/forest_city_to_sell_scranton_peninsula.html

 

 

The former Forest City land, now Thunderbird, was the Republic Steel site. The lumberyards were east of the railroad and were predecessors of the current owner, Scranton Averell. That ownership history goes back to 1828.

7 hours ago, freefourur said:

400 jobs would still be a blow to cleveland but they might make it up in increased jobs at HQ. 

 

Yes, very much so. Although downtown Cleveland could lose 400 R&D jobs, it could gain as many as 1,500 jobs (although several hundred of those would relocate from Hinckley Industrial Parkway in Cleveland). And, of course, it will retain the 3,500 office jobs already downtown.

14 hours ago, Terdolph said:

I wish I could agree with you.  I have no confidence in His Honor's office to handle this competently.

 

You may win "understatement of the year" with that one.

 

I'm not sure why all the hate for Brecksville.  The site it would occupy lost 1,000 jobs to Wade Park nearly a decade ago.  It's a quick shot down 77 from downtown, and maybe it could be parlayed into rail service heading south.   If it's indeed a bunch of low rise buildings spread out, why take up expensive land?

 

(Okay, if there's one thing I have less confidence in than the current city admin it's the ability of RTA leadership to be progressive.)

11 hours ago, mrnyc said:

 

 

no, but it seems they found out its not too bad. the history going back is lumberyards and a republic nut & bolt plant.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2017/06/forest_city_to_sell_scranton_peninsula.html

 

 

Lumberyards often used preserving chemicals that could be problematic.  There's also foundries listed and they use fluxes and oils and sand can be an issue.

 

If they did onsite plating at that nut and bolt plant......well erstwhile platers are often the worst CERCLA sites.

 

 

58 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

You may win "understatement of the year" with that one.

 

I'm not sure why all the hate for Brecksville.  The site it would occupy lost 1,000 jobs to Wade Park nearly a decade ago.  It's a quick shot down 77 from downtown, and maybe it could be parlayed into rail service heading south.   If it's indeed a bunch of low rise buildings spread out, why take up expensive land?

 

(Okay, if there's one thing I have less confidence in than the current city admin it's the ability of RTA leadership to be progressive.)

There’s no hate for Brecksville. I think most on this board would rather keep 1000 good paying jobs in the city (core of the region). A rising tide lifts all ships. Cleveland is the tide in the region. It’s better for region to have 1000 good paying jobs in the city.

^ I agree but I'd rather have these jobs in Cuyahoga County than in another region altogether. 

47 minutes ago, Sir2geez said:

There’s no hate for Brecksville. I think most on this board would rather keep 1000 good paying jobs in the city (core of the region). A rising tide lifts all ships. Cleveland is the tide in the region. It’s better for region to have 1000 good paying jobs in the city.

Correct. This is common sense. The core has to be strong. You can’t be a suburb of nowhere 

Ok guys I got on the RIGHT elevator on my way out of SW yesterday. A group of very nicely dressed older professionals were talking and I jumped on the elevator down. The one woman said that they "would be talking to the mayor tomorrow (today) regarding the environmental issues". I can only assume that is referring to the Scranton topic we all have been discussing. I will try my best to pick the correct elevators on my way home in the future.

That has to be the for the R&D facility. The HQ site is a go. The only unsettled question is the R&D facility site. Question is, where?

Edited January 15, 20205 yr by KJP

On 1/14/2020 at 11:35 PM, KJP said:

 

The former Forest City land, now Thunderbird, was the Republic Steel site. The lumberyards were east of the railroad and were predecessors of the current owner, Scranton Averell. That ownership history goes back to 1828.

 

For anyone doing historic research and who doesn't feel like doing full title search a lot of the old Sanborn maps have been georeferenced and digitized, also CPL has all of the old maps digitized (but not georeferenced)- https://www.arcgis.com/apps/View/index.html?appid=ddb0ee6134d64de4adaaa3660308abfd

 

 

Edited February 21, 20205 yr by GISguy

Here's an 1881 Sanborn map. Note that one of Scranton Averell's predecessor companies is shown as the owner of the properties SHW is interested in. Although they spell it "Averill" as in "Averill & Bradford"....

 

BTW, I'll bet SHW wished that Scranton and Seneca (West 3rd today) were still connected in the same manner as they were before the Cleveland Union Terminal Group was constructed in the 1920s. It would make access between their new HQ site and a Scranton Peninsula R&D site VERY convenient....

Edited January 15, 20205 yr by KJP

Maybe Cleveland should push Emerald Parkway near the airport for the R&D site. There should be plenty of space there. 

 

Convenient to the airport and plenty of hotel rooms nearby. 

Edited January 15, 20205 yr by freefourur

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

 

For anyone doing historic research and who doesn't feel like doing full title search a lot of the old Sanborn maps have been georeferenced and digitized, also CPL has all of the old maps digitized (but not georeferenced)- https://www.arcgis.com/apps/View/index.html?appid=ddb0ee6134d64de4adaaa3660308abfd

 

Here's 1927 for reference

 

It always amazes me how many river crossings there used to be that are now gone.  (Scranton, W. 3rd (S), and Carter/W. 3rd (N) on this map alone.)

4 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Lumberyards often used preserving chemicals that could be problematic.  There's also foundries listed and they use fluxes and oils and sand can be an issue.

 

If they did onsite plating at that nut and bolt plant......well erstwhile platers are often the worst CERCLA sites.

 

 

 

 

well, yikes. that is not good for mixed use. from the article it seems forest city thought it wasn't bad, but it was not clear to me if the site was really looked into very well. 

 

and -- since i got it backwards -- the former republic site shouldn't be a problem at all for a paint r&d site. in fact it seems perfect that such an environmentally poisoned site be reused for a poisonous operation. lets hope they pick that location over brecksville, or at least somewhere else around downtown as a backup.

55 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

 

 

well, yikes. that is not good for mixed use. from the article it seems forest city thought it wasn't bad, but it was not clear to me if the site was really looked into very well. 

 

and -- since i got it backwards -- the former republic site shouldn't be a problem at all for a paint r&d site. in fact it seems perfect that such an environmentally poisoned site be reused for a poisonous operation. lets hope they pick that location over brecksville, or at least somewhere else around downtown as a backup.

 

Unless it's changed dramatically, which I doubt, CERCLA doesn't work that way.   You can't just say "Leave it, because we're going to mess it up anyway."   Nor are they likely to admit they might make a mess.

of course, but they can do a cursory job of it and move on.

I'll chime in one more possibly thing I haven't seen mentioned on the contamination and that is time. I'm not sure how much it impacts their decision, but sometimes cleanups can be very time consuming, and permitting on them can be a very lengthily process on its own depending on the severity (whether or not the City is involved doesn't always help speed anything up). If they want to build both campuses at the same time I could see the time factor on the cleanup being taken into consideration on choosing a different site.

17 minutes ago, MissinOhio said:

The Columbus posters talk about this thread constantly.  Let's not give them something to talk about.

 

Edited January 15, 20205 yr by TH3BUDDHA

19 minutes ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

 

 

I knew you were watching. ?

@E Rocc The hate for Brecksville is that it's 1,000 or so particularly high paying jobs locating on the outskirts of the county rather than the urban core. The idea that 1,000 jobs at SW down there would spur rail to the area is laughable; as you yourself mentioned, the same number of jobs were down there in the past and there was no impetus or spark to add transit, nor should there be - why use extremely scarce transit resources to support 2 sprawling R&D sites? (about 600 Lubrizol employees work across the street)? 

 

Look it's certainly better than to have the jobs out of county or state, but as far as reversing the trend of sprawl it is as bad an outcome as you could get for these 1000 jobs, without leaving the county. The VA should go back to nature. R&D needs to be secure and safe, yes, but it doesn't need to sprawl.

2 hours ago, PittsburgoDelendaEst said:

@E Rocc The hate for Brecksville is that it's 1,000 or so particularly high paying jobs locating on the outskirts of the county rather than the urban core. The idea that 1,000 jobs at SW down there would spur rail to the area is laughable; as you yourself mentioned, the same number of jobs were down there in the past and there was no impetus or spark to add transit, nor should there be - why use extremely scarce transit resources to support 2 sprawling R&D sites? (about 600 Lubrizol employees work across the street)? 

 

Look it's certainly better than to have the jobs out of county or state, but as far as reversing the trend of sprawl it is as bad an outcome as you could get for these 1000 jobs, without leaving the county. The VA should go back to nature. R&D needs to be secure and safe, yes, but it doesn't need to sprawl.

 

a lot of good points here.  This VA site is at the southern tip of Cuy County.  Less than a mile away and it's Richfield.  It's reasonable logic that half the employees of any new development at the VA site would rather live in Summit or Medina County and commute back to Brecksville.  Even transfer of existing jobs within Cuy Co would result in a portion probably relocating outside the County.  Just speculating, but it seems logical to me

Edited January 16, 20205 yr by gottaplan

9 hours ago, PittsburgoDelendaEst said:

@E Rocc The hate for Brecksville is that it's 1,000 or so particularly high paying jobs locating on the outskirts of the county rather than the urban core. The idea that 1,000 jobs at SW down there would spur rail to the area is laughable; as you yourself mentioned, the same number of jobs were down there in the past and there was no impetus or spark to add transit, nor should there be - why use extremely scarce transit resources to support 2 sprawling R&D sites? (about 600 Lubrizol employees work across the street)? 

 

Look it's certainly better than to have the jobs out of county or state, but as far as reversing the trend of sprawl it is as bad an outcome as you could get for these 1000 jobs, without leaving the county. The VA should go back to nature. R&D needs to be secure and safe, yes, but it doesn't need to sprawl.

 

Oh yeah, Lubrizol also has their R&D out there.  I forgot about that.  It supports my point, in reality.  There are good practical reasons to not have chemical R&D in a dense location.  They are not insurmountable, but they are real and getting beyond them adds costs.

 

I'll be blunt, I don't at all believe in actively "reversing the trend of sprawl".  It represents aggregate individual decisions and it's been a megatrend in this nation, especially away from the coasts, since World War II.   That said, my point is that if the center were to go to Brecksville, it would not be a net loss for the region, or even the county, and for Brecksville to attempt to replace the VA jobs is certainly due diligence on their part.   

 

It's going to cost a lot of $ to have the VA site go "back to nature" instead of being a blighted mess.   Who pays?   

Poor, @E Rocc. A fourth-migration guy living in the fifth-migration era. ?

22 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

I wish that ERocc was wrong but he is probably right.  The only thing that can keep SW R&D downtown is intervention by City Hall. 

 

Don't hold your breath.

 

I think you should. I'll time you.

there are so many sites around downtown to make an r&d site work its not even funny.

 

its time for city hall to get to work and offer a few suggestions.

 

not that they haven't or aren't in the process of it, who knows, but assuming so, make it public so a big pr push can be made by everyone. 

Doesn't the City of Cleveland and/or Cuyahoga County own numerous parcels within the city limits?

28 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Doesn't the City of Cleveland and/or Cuyahoga County own numerous parcels within the city limits?

 

Yes, but few of them are either under contract with others or don't meet SHW's needs -- ie have 10+ acres that is expandable for multiple, separated buildings of about 50,000-100,000 sf each maxing out at 3-4 stories and each building with extensive rooftop ventilation and fire suppression systems. There's actually very few clean sites in Cleveland that offer this much space.

Edited January 16, 20205 yr by KJP

If Cleveland has no available land options, it's better to have R&D in Brecksville than out of the county or state. I think having a corporate HQ downtown, with suburban R&D facilities is pretty much the corporate norm. When I worked for E.I. DuPont de Nemours, our corporate offices were in downtown Wilimington, while the Experimental Station (R&D) and other offices were in suburban Wilmington, Newark, DE and NJ.

 

Edited January 16, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder
Spp

"Clean" land is the operative word.

6 minutes ago, KJP said:

"Clean" land is the operative word.

In your opinion does it look like the city will be able to clean the land SHW wants?

Haven't we just been cleaning a whole lot of land along the Opportunity Corridor?  I would say a research center for a Fortune 500 company would be an amazing way to get that area rolling.  I hope the City is pitching that land- and hard!

45 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

In your opinion does it look like the city will be able to clean the land SHW wants?

 

Unfortunately, I'm not privy to the content of their meetings. I'm aware only that multiple meetings have taken place involving all parties, including at least two this week.

 

37 minutes ago, X said:

Haven't we just been cleaning a whole lot of land along the Opportunity Corridor?  I would say a research center for a Fortune 500 company would be an amazing way to get that area rolling.  I hope the City is pitching that land- and hard!

 

I hope so, too.