3 hours ago, X said:

Haven't we just been cleaning a whole lot of land along the Opportunity Corridor?  I would say a research center for a Fortune 500 company would be an amazing way to get that area rolling.  I hope the City is pitching that land- and hard!

I also think that the Opportunity Corridor would be a great location for the R&D Center for SHW including helping to jumpstart that area's redevelopment!  BUT I understand that SHW wants their R&D Center to be VERY CLOSE to their NEW HQ.  True its a lot closer then Brecksville, but is it close enough for SHW?

 

Another Cleveland location that maybe possible is the Midtown area, IF SHW is willing to wait for the cleanup process to be completed and IF they consider that area being close enough to their NEW HQ...

Edited January 17, 20205 yr by Larry1962
Midtown

12 hours ago, X said:

Haven't we just been cleaning a whole lot of land along the Opportunity Corridor?  I would say a research center for a Fortune 500 company would be an amazing way to get that area rolling.  I hope the City is pitching that land- and hard!

 

I said awhile ago that would be an ideal option.   Is there enough contiguous land though for what SW needs?

14 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

I hope so. All aspects of SW need to be in Cleveland proper. 

 

But if Cleveland is trying to take something from the suburbs, you're in favor of that?

 

Consistency equals credibility...

On 1/16/2020 at 8:00 AM, KJP said:

Poor, @E Rocc. A fourth-migration guy living in the fifth-migration era. ?

 

That's not really what we're talking about here.   Manufacturing isn't going to be returning to the center cities unless CERCLA is drastically reformed and that's not happening anytime soon.   

 

Headquarterses are a different matter, though manufacturing HQs sometimes locate near the plants.

 

R&D is a sort of grey area between the two.  I would think the ideal would be on the east end of the OC near Case.   But it's not a disaster for the region if it ends up in Brecksville.   Especially since the jobs that were there are now in Wade Park.  It may be bad for the way some people want the city to evolve.   But in toto, I don't see that happening.  Industry is not going to recentralize.

 

Plus, with Lubrizol right there, there's leverage to attract centers from other regions.  Support businesses such as independent testing labs as well.

Edited January 17, 20205 yr by E Rocc

6 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

I said awhile ago that would be an ideal option.   Is there enough contiguous land though for what SW needs?

 

Yes, there is at least one spot, and a picture of it was just posted in the Fairfax New Economy Thread (thanks WhatUp for finding that!).  Edit- It's the spot right next to the tracks across from the Juvenile Justice Center.  I measured the spot out on Google Earth as well as I could, and it looks to be about 13-14 acres, which should be more than enough for what they are planning.  It's a pretty prime spot on the OC, too, as it is right outside of University Circle.

 

 

2 hours ago, X said:

 

Yes, there is at least one spot, and a picture of it was just posted in the Fairfax New Economy Thread (thanks WhatUp for finding that!).  Edit- It's the spot right next to the tracks across from the Juvenile Justice Center.  I measured the spot out on Google Earth as well as I could, and it looks to be about 13-14 acres, which should be more than enough for what they are planning.  It's a pretty prime spot on the OC, too, as it is right outside of University Circle.

 

 

 

Not a bad option.  Are they going to fence it off, or assign more cops there?

 

Perception of crime is just as important as actual crime when you are trying to sell a location.

After hearing how high security research facilities need to be, I thought they'd have plenty on hand to deal with any issues, real or perceived.?

 

But really, for better or worse, this site is actually fairly separated from the surrounding residential neighborhoods already by RR tracks, industrial uses, and general abandonment.

This whole strip of parking along Columbus Road? I’m pretty sure this was formerly all used as just a rail yard, no?

 

Its like theyre looking for an excuse to put this in Brecksville.

R&D facilities are concerned with industrial espionage versus your average run of the mill street crime. We must also consider that wherever the R&D facility is located, the intent will be for it to be in that location well into the foreseeable future. I agree with "X" and hope the City helps SW identify an appropriate OC location. Locating the new CPD nearby may help to allay crime concerns. 

Edited January 17, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

Ignorant question—how common is physical espionage in this day of cyber? I understand the need for a secure campus, but it seems to me that cyber security is a much more important investment these days than Fort Knox-worthy physical security. 
 

I’m not saying there should be no security, but I’ve been to A LOT of corporate facilities with trade secrets that would knock any S-W product out of the ballpark, that have normal run-of-the-mill corporate security.
 

Now if you put a jump drive into their computers, security will happily come, throw you out, destroy your contract, and fire your corporate contact... but they don’t need a Trumpian wall for that. ?

 

Just seems to me that all this physical security risk may be a bit overstated based on my very biased forays into twenty first century corporate America?

10 minutes ago, Clevecane said:

Ignorant question—how common is physical espionage in this day of cyber? I understand the need for a secure campus, but it seems to me that cyber security is a much more important investment these days than Fort Knox-worthy physical security. 
 

I’m not saying there should be no security, but I’ve been to A LOT of corporate facilities with trade secrets that would knock any S-W product out of the ballpark, that have normal run-of-the-mill corporate security.
 

Now if you put a jump drive into their computers, security will happily come, throw you out, destroy your contract, and fire your corporate contact... but they don’t need a Trumpian wall for that. ?

 

Just seems to me that all this physical security risk may be a bit overstated based on my very biased forays into twenty first century corporate America?

You couldn’t be more wrong. Security is top notch everywhere. Especially at Sherwin-Williams.Have you ever worked inside of their headquarters? I have.

4 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Not a bad option.  Are they going to fence it off, or assign more cops there?

 

Perception of crime is just as important as actual crime when you are trying to sell a location.

 You’re absolutely correct. This area on the opportunity Corredor would be awesome to jumpstart this whole Eastside neighborhood. But perception is reality. And the perception of this area is total sh*t ghetto. 

2 minutes ago, Watertiger1962 said:

You couldn’t be more wrong. Security is top notch everywhere. Especially at Sherwin-Williams.Have you ever worked inside of their headquarters? I have.

The thing is, their current R&D butts right up to the sidewalk. Windows and all. Seems to not have been a problem for say the past 100+ years. 

1 minute ago, marty15 said:

The thing is, their current R&D butts right up to the sidewalk. Windows and all. Seems to not have been a problem for say the past 100+ years. 

Try to move around inside their buildings it’s almost impossible and in most places you need an escort. It’s the trade secrets. They don’t want you to see anything.

  I don’t want to get too far off topic. I want to see this thread continue with real information and not speculation. Trade secrets are very real. Small businesses throughout Cleveland are visited by other countries to steal ideas.  China posing as local businessman we’re trying to poach flame Harding Steel ideas just down the street on Saint Clair Avenue. Stuff happens and you would have no idea. And you’ll never see it in the news.

13 minutes ago, Watertiger1962 said:

Try to move around inside their buildings it’s almost impossible and in most places you need an escort. It’s the trade secrets. They don’t want you to see anything.

  I don’t want to get too far off topic. I want to see this thread continue with real information and not speculation. Trade secrets are very real. Small businesses throughout Cleveland are visited by other countries to steal ideas.  China posing as local businessman we’re trying to poach flame Harding Steel ideas just down the street on Saint Clair Avenue. Stuff happens and you would have no idea. And you’ll never see it in the news.

Oh, I totally get that. I have a friend who works in food science for Nestle. I never really knew until she told me what she has to go through every time she has to visit another one of their facilities. Higher security than some military bases.

 

Just pointing out how the current situation is acceptable. And has been for many years.

Edited January 18, 20205 yr by marty15

1 hour ago, Watertiger1962 said:

You couldn’t be more wrong. Security is top notch everywhere. Especially at Sherwin-Williams.Have you ever worked inside of their headquarters? I have.

I’m not saying they don’t need security, and yes, I have been to their HQ. But I’ve also been to HQs and R&D facilities for some of the largest tech companies, some of the largest pharma companies, cigarette companies, power utilities, banks, other chemical companies, etc. And I’ve quite possibly spoken to more chief security officers and chief IT officers than anyone else on this thread. 
 

So yes. I understand they need physical security. In this day and age, sadly, not just from corporate espionage, but also from angry employees with a gun. At the end of the day—I’m saying physical barriers aren’t as big a deal (IMHO) as good cyber security and good physical security management systems. 
 

All that said, (and back on topic), I hope they put the R&D site in whichever location returns the most value to SW. Because a happy and growing SW is a happy and growing Cuyahoga County!

Edited January 18, 20205 yr by Clevecane

1 hour ago, marty15 said:

The thing is, their current R&D butts right up to the sidewalk. Windows and all. Seems to not have been a problem for say the past 100+ years. 

I think we should reserve this discussion for when/where they select their R&D site, it is actually built and how accessible it is to random pedestrians.

Is there a reason paint R&D is more threatened by proximate pedestrians than biomedical?  Here's a streetview of a block in Cambridge, MA that has a large Novartis campus across the street from a very recently developed massive Pfizer campus.  Both have ground floor retail.  https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3611464,-71.0965316,3a,75y,301.08h,89.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sabXc7cpnKgog26zOi8LQSg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

This "R&D needs to be on a remote campus because of espionage" idea seems completely ridiculous to me. Or, at the very least, is much less significant a concern than talent attraction and employee quality of life. 

I think you guys are missing the point here with espionage, while it is pretty controversial that PPG could be spying on SW, stuff like this happens all the time and if those people are found guilty in their acts they're held equally accountable, and usually legally. Especially if PPG copies a patent from SW there's obviously something inbetween. But I'm not so worried about it being downtown. It happens all the time, but putting R&D somewhere rural wont decrease the chances of that ever happening. There's no such thing as this miracle flashdrive that immediately downloads multiple computer HDDs and SSDs without logging into it. 'Myth Debunked'
 

For the sake of this thread getting back on topic, I don't live in hometown anymore, actually far from it, but a few of my guys work for the SW financial dept. They keep hearing rumors of some legal battles with contractors, and especially the ground and water pollution in the New Jersey legal scare. They keep getting fed corporate emails telling them not to tell anyone what's happening with the new HQ R&D, but the only news they get is from email or from a really lucky rumor. But I've found those rumors to be correct a few times in the past 6 months. Based on those new occurring rumors, they're not moving the R&D to Brecksville, let's hope they're right, there's plenty of empty lots DT, and lots more that need to go.

 

One more thing to add, if we have 3 colleges and univerities in the area, wouldn't you think there's some form of espionage there? I'm sure of it, but so long as there's a patent there's no need to worry.

Edited January 18, 20205 yr by tastybunns

32 minutes ago, tastybunns said:

I think you guys are missing the point here with espionage, while it is pretty controversial that PPG could be spying on SW, stuff like this happens all the time and if those people are found guilty in their acts they're held equally accountable, and usually legally. Especially if PPG copies a patent from SW there's obviously something inbetween. But I'm not so worried about it being downtown. It happens all the time, but putting R&D somewhere rural wont decrease the chances of that ever happening. There's no such thing as this miracle flashdrive that immediately downloads multiple computer HDDs and SSDs without logging into it. 'Myth Debunked'
 

For the sake of this thread getting back on topic, I don't live in hometown anymore, actually far from it, but a few of my guys work for the SW financial dept. They keep hearing rumors of some legal battles with contractors, and especially the ground and water pollution in the New Jersey legal scare. They keep getting fed corporate emails telling them not to tell anyone what's happening with the new HQ R&D, but the only news they get is from email or from a really lucky rumor. But I've found those rumors to be correct a few times in the past 6 months. Based on those new occurring rumors, they're not moving the R&D to Brecksville, let's hope they're right, there's plenty of empty lots DT, and lots more that need to go.

 

One more thing to add, if we have 3 colleges and univerities in the area, wouldn't you think there's some form of espionage there? I'm sure of it, but so long as there's a patent there's no need to worry.

Seriously. Do the DeGeronimos have THAT much influence? There’s literally dozens of places within the city that their R&D could fit. 

The site where the soccer stadium will never be built. What’s wrong with that spot? There’s so many. It’s a hostage situation at this point.

yeah, plenty of options.

 

i would think squeezing new r&d structures out around right where it already is could work out best.

 

it would be very a cleverly sited choice and involve creatively wedged in new buildings, for sure.

 

SATURDAY, JANUARY 18, 2020

Cleveland & Brecksville vie for Sherwin-Williams R&D after deal dies

 

Three sources confirm that a deal for Sherwin-Williams' (SHW) favored site in Cleveland for a consolidated research and development (R&D) facility is dead. Now, the question is where will the facility staffed by about 1,000 scientists, engineers and researchers land?

City and state officials, including Mayor Frank Jackson, met with SHW executives at least twice in the past week upon learning that the planned new R&D facility was at risk of leaving Cleveland, two of the sources said. But there is no word that any new sites in Cleveland were of interest to SHW.

The clock is ticking, however. SHW executives reportedly want to announce their new headquarters (HQ) and R&D facilities in the coming week.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/01/cleveland-brecksville-vie-for-sherwin.html

What about Highland Hills?  I believe they split the local income tax with the City of Cleveland.  At least they did when I worked there.

16 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

SATURDAY, JANUARY 18, 2020

Cleveland & Brecksville vie for Sherwin-Williams R&D after deal dies

 

Three sources confirm that a deal for Sherwin-Williams' (SHW) favored site in Cleveland for a consolidated research and development (R&D) facility is dead. Now, the question is where will the facility staffed by about 1,000 scientists, engineers and researchers land?

City and state officials, including Mayor Frank Jackson, met with SHW executives at least twice in the past week upon learning that the planned new R&D facility was at risk of leaving Cleveland, two of the sources said. But there is no word that any new sites in Cleveland were of interest to SHW.

The clock is ticking, however. SHW executives reportedly want to announce their new headquarters (HQ) and R&D facilities in the coming week.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/01/cleveland-brecksville-vie-for-sherwin.html

Please no.

I find it hard to believe that a company like SHW would seriously be weighing such radically different options less than one week before they make they make the big announcement. They already said they want the R&D to be near the HQ, therefore, I'd expect the new location to at least be in Cleveland proper.  Does the executive team really want to schlep 23 minutes down the highway each way everytime they need to make a visit?

Edited January 19, 20205 yr by West153

^This

Is there any inherent reason the R&D couldn’t be on the Weston site too? If the site for the R&D is truly up in the air, then I would hope the city is pitching this idea to SHW too and at least talking about what kind of incentives could make it happen. 
 

This is all assuming SHW isn’t just trying to get a better deal from the city (which would be smart on SHW’s part and unsurprising).

Because putting the R&D on the Weston lots means building a taller, more expensive tower on the Jacobs lot. It's cheaper to put the R&D elsewhere. 

13 minutes ago, KJP said:

Because putting the R&D on the Weston lots means building a taller, more expensive tower on the Jacobs lot. It's cheaper to put the R&D elsewhere. 

See, I find that to be the perfect solution! ?

 

Kidding, point taken.

We all seem to have overlooked what was an original alternative for the combined HQ and R&D; the Bedrock site.

 

Couldn't just R&D locate there, with PS/Weston for HQ?

Edited January 18, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

The Bedrock site has been considered. I haven't heard if it's been accepted or rejected. 

33 minutes ago, KJP said:

The Bedrock site has been considered. I haven't heard if it's been accepted or rejected. 

That would allow SW to maintain their "river roots," be within a few blocks of HQ AND keep everything downtown. ?

Edited January 18, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

I wonder why SW just wouldn't stay on their current R&D site where they have been for over 100 years. There is enough room to build other buildings on the existing parking lots and green space, when those are finished you move everything a couple hundred foot, then tear the existing buildings down and replace with surface parking or garages.  

It seems like the city’s only move, based on SW’s  apparent lack of interest in Cleveland sites, as suggested  by KJP’s article, would be a full clean-up of the Scranton Peninsula sight. But  I assume that endeavor  would be expensive, complicated and time consuming . It could easily create uncertainty over time that the site would actually be sufficiently prepared for SW on a definitive timetable. With questions pending, and no word at all on interest in an all-in-One Weston site or any downtown alternative, it’s hard to imagine that SW has not already selected  Brecksville for their R&D facility- particularly if we are in fact, only  a week or so away from the official announcement of what’s to come. 
I can understand SW perceiving  Brecksville as a very attractive, desirable  location for a world class R & D campus. It apparently works from a financial perspective while eliminating unwanted unknowns that would be likely with Scranton. As a Cleveland supporter, in a perfect world, I would of hoped for a more uncompromising commitment to the home city by SW. The relocation of 1/6th of the corporation’s jobs to a suburban home (albeit one so close to the city)Will leave a bittersweet taste following  a celebration of the new world HQ on Public Square. 
 

Edited January 19, 20205 yr by CleveFan

Raldo would be correct if Cleveland was the only city doing this. A federal law would have to be passed to make these corporate incentives illegal nationwide. ...

 

 

 

@KJP Has the massive lot at West 9th and St. Clair come up? How is that not a viable option?

3 minutes ago, marty15 said:

@KJP Has the massive lot at West 9th and St. Clair come up? How is that not a viable option?

 

Not that I've heard. Good question.

 

5 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

We all seem to have overlooked what was an original alternative for the combined HQ and R&D; the Bedrock site.

 

Couldn't just R&D locate there, with PS/Weston for HQ?

I wonder if Bedrock wants the development on their site to connect/interact with Tower City?An R&D facility would not do that as it would need to be secured and have no public access.

This story further confirms Scranton Averill is a parasitic organization with literally no other motive than making money doing as little as humanly possible. The doing as little as possible often seems the bigger motivator than money somehow. This city carries so much baggage from the past it’s a wonder we’ve gotten to where we are to date.

New thread to discuss Sherwin-Williams R&D developments.

16 hours ago, KJP said:

The Bedrock site has been considered. I haven't heard if it's been accepted or rejected. 

 

On 1/17/2020 at 7:37 PM, marty15 said:

The thing is, their current R&D butts right up to the sidewalk. Windows and all. Seems to not have been a problem for say the past 100+ years. 

As I recall, their current R&D facility was built before the internet, electronic surveillance, selfies, smartphones and domestic terrorism. In addition, they will want to anticipate future security needs.

Edited January 19, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

I may have missed it but instead of shooting the R&D development out to the suburbs why doesn't the city pitch the opportunity corridor? A good amount of land, it could be built to the rail line, an attractive trait to younger workers and it would serve as an anchor development for the area. This would lead to other development and repopulation occuring in an area that has seen better days. A win-win.

On 1/18/2020 at 12:18 AM, StapHanger said:

Is there a reason paint R&D is more threatened by proximate pedestrians than biomedical?  Here's a streetview of a block in Cambridge, MA that has a large Novartis campus across the street from a very recently developed massive Pfizer campus.  Both have ground floor retail.  https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3611464,-71.0965316,3a,75y,301.08h,89.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sabXc7cpnKgog26zOi8LQSg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

This "R&D needs to be on a remote campus because of espionage" idea seems completely ridiculous to me. Or, at the very least, is much less significant a concern than talent attraction and employee quality of life. 

 

Talent acquisition is a different animal with R&D in the physical sciences that it is with sales or marketing.  Younger workers or not.   The super-talented people are more likely to be asocial than the general public is.   They make a bigger difference than their counterparts in marketing or PR do.

 

As for security, people who are accustomed to it develop a comfort with the routine, and a corresponding discomfort with the opposite.   It's a coping mechanism.   I'm not saying their buildings can't abut high traffic areas, just don't put them on display with ground level windows.

Retail is a different matter, I am talking about work areas, including "common areas".

Edited January 20, 20205 yr by E Rocc

7 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

I may have missed it but instead of shooting the R&D development out to the suburbs why doesn't the city pitch the opportunity corridor? A good amount of land, it could be built to the rail line, an attractive trait to younger workers and it would serve as an anchor development for the area. This would lead to other development and repopulation occuring in an area that has seen better days. A win-win.

 

Even my sprawl-indifferent self has suggested that would be a great option.  It might not be ready in time, though.

On 1/18/2020 at 7:51 PM, KJP said:

Raldo would be correct if Cleveland was the only city doing this. A federal law would have to be passed to make these corporate incentives illegal nationwide. ...

 

 

 

 

Roldo passed into "Get off my lawn, you damned kids!" territory a long time ago.  He has very rigid ideas of how cities should be laid out that no longer approach reality.

On 1/18/2020 at 3:34 PM, West153 said:

I find it hard to believe that a company like SHW would seriously be weighing such radically different options less than one week before they make they make the big announcement. They already said they want the R&D to be near the HQ, therefore, I'd expect the new location to at least be in Cleveland proper.  Does the executive team really want to schlep 23 minutes down the highway each way everytime they need to make a visit?

 

Depends on their mindset.  Keeping the mid level execs from simply "dropping in" might be seen as a positive to the actual researchers.

Has the old Breen site been completely  elliminated?  Sorry if I missed something but it has enough land and a premium location for SW.

32 minutes ago, sooner said:

Has the old Breen site been completely  elliminated?  Sorry if I missed something but it has enough land and a premium location for SW.

 

I haven't heard it mentioned at all. But I also didn't hear about Scranton Peninsula until a week ago. So anything is possible.