Drive-by shooting Downtown this afternoon

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/23-year-old-man-in-serious-condition-after-being-shot-in-downtown-cleveland/95-c041c37e-abde-4d40-a590-f770c951008c

Do we know what Toby Keith's whereabouts were?

On 6/9/2021 at 4:23 PM, downtownjoe said:

We need to figure out a way to heal these communities/youth. It's going to take time and INTENSE effort from a competent government. Media and the internet are toxic. You should see the music videos that are being produced in our own backyards. They incriminate themselves but it's cool to show off that way, it's only getting cooler. Everyone is carrying around that shouldn't be. If you're interested in watching some of these music videos: PLZDROPTHAT/Record216 produces many of the videos for these Cleveland folk: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCM1yC4mf5TvIfnjCKzIltlQ 

 

LaFlexico (affiliated with Heartless Felons and based on the West Side of Cleveland) is one of the more popular crews where a bunch of members were just indicted for the Tremont shootings last year.

 

Merio has some serious talent, I will say that.

HF's biggest rival, Loyal Always, had their own recording company at some point.

1 minute ago, E Rocc said:

 

Merio has some serious talent, I will say that.

HF's biggest rival, Loyal Always, had their own recording company at some point.

 

Very interesting. I totally agree and that’s what makes this even sadder. Lil Cray (Rushy B) is also super talented who also got caught up in all of this. (HF member, former standout HS east tech basketball player) 

 

A Bronx Tale said it best– “the saddest thing in life is wasted talent”. 

On 6/9/2021 at 5:30 PM, BelievelandD1 said:

heres a couple country music videos with more malicious use of guns.  While we are at freaking out about black culture making music videos withguns, maybe we can fix rural USA too. 

 

 

And I dislike country music for the exact reason I dislike rap.

16 hours ago, downtownjoe said:

 

Very interesting. I totally agree and that’s what makes this even sadder. Lil Cray (Rushy B) is also super talented who also got caught up in all of this. (HF member, former standout HS east tech basketball player) 

 

A Bronx Tale said it best– “the saddest thing in life is wasted talent”. 

 

Plenty of top rappers are from there, some are still there.  Cheef Keef is a major example, a rapper named Lil Jojo got killed not long after dissing CK’s gang to the beat of one of his best tunes.

 

The classic case is of course Tupac Shakur.  The man was as good with words as Dylan, Springsteen, or for that matter any poet laureate, and was killed at the age of 25 in a dumb beef with another talented rapper.

 

2Pac’s views on today might be interesting, though he was from a Black Panther family some of his lines didn’t exactly follow what could be now be called the BLM narrative.

 

One of the great ironies here is it’s not the people harmed or really threatened by these gangs who are the most afraid of them.  White suburbanites, for example.   If seen in their neighborhoods they are presumed to be there to buy drugs, and are under the gang’s very aggressive protection.

Does anyone remember a west side kid named "Arry Jettz" or something similar? He was shot and killed a few years back, but it was strange seeing kids that I recognized waving guns around in their videos. 

Ugh, can we have nice things please? 

 

 

It’s time for us to realize that we have a problem that we’ve never really had before, a gang problem. Cleveland has never really been a gang city with a gang culture, nothing anywhere near the level of a Chicago or a Los Angeles, but we do have a problem now. The vast majority of the crime being committed is being committed by gang members. And we need to address it. It appears that there’s a debate about carrot vs. stick with these issues but you need both. I personally believe that particularly for violent gang members, the organizations should be prosecuted under RICO statutes like the mob was. There’s not a single gang that isn’t involved in some sort of drug trafficking, narcotics, etc of some sort. So deem these gangs as criminal organizations and break them up. That’s the stick.

 

But you also need the carrot. You have to improve environments to prevent those environments from breeding new criminals in the first place. Studies show that young black men who grow up in violent neighborhoods show similar characteristics as PTSD victims. We know exactly what to do to address PTSD in other situations, but we don’t address it here. You’ve GOT to start dealing with the trauma that at risk youth have been exposed to as a result of the environments in which they come from. You’ve also got to improve the economy of these neighborhoods, bring that poverty level down. Nothing contributes more to crime than a concentrated, high level of poverty in one area. So you have to fix these trouble spots where a lot of the at risk youth are coming from. You’ve GOT to improve the schools. The school system is jacked up, the way we educate our kids is jacked up, the entire system is fundamentally flawed for the youth that I’m talking about. 

 

People spending so much time talking about distractions like rap videos when whatever negative thing you see in there are symptoms of the problem. They’re not the problem. They’re a system of it. So I believe that if you want to address this problem you have to do BOTH an AGGRESSIVE prosecution of violent gang members with the intent of breaking up the gang while also cutting off the spigot in these neighborhoods by addressing the conditions and the trauma that leads people to gangs in the first place. 

We've never had a gang problem before?  You can't be serious.

3 minutes ago, X said:

We've never had a gang problem before?  You can't be serious.

Not like Chicago and New York and Los Angeles. No we haven’t. We’ve always had gangs but never to the size or scale of the two big ones today. It’s different. And I remember the crack era. 

Funny that out of everything that was said, that’s what you react the strongest to but I digress 

Guess those cars were just blowing themselves up in Tremont in the 70s.

 

That said, gangs seem to be in full anarchy, leaderless modes today (or perhaps the last 40 years). Social media isn't helping. Enablers aren't helping. Generational single mother families are REALLY not helping. Loudmouth anti-social contrarian types aren't helping. Society's double standards on child abuse is not helping (an infant/kid is allowed to grow up in the most violent family and setting imaginable, but a suburban mom loses custody if her 9-year old walks home from school?). Etc. Etc.

 

The realistic answer is that society - especially now with all the BLM, critical race theory, microaggression inventions, and other one-way conversations - isn't willing to address the core issues when discussing crime. Instead, we're distracting ourselves with changing team names, having new holidays, and seeking old social media posts for anything potentially prejudicial - none of which has an impact on the eventual 650 homicides in Chicago this year, 150 or so in Cleveland, 500 in NYC, etc. 

 

I consider myself liberal, but my god do they not make it easy sometimes. There does need to be a conversation on race, but it has to be a legitimate one that discusses both institutional racism and also that enabled subculture of violence.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 19, 20213 yr by TBideon
6500, meant 650

1 minute ago, TBideon said:

Guess those cars were just blowing themselves up in Tremont in the 70s.

 

 

 

 

I don’t know what’s up with the reading comprehension around here. I’m talking about gangs, as in STREET GANGS, not the f’n mafia (who were the ones blowing up cars in the 70s). Jesus. 🙄

5 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Guess those cars were just blowing themselves up in Tremont in the 70s.

 

That said, gangs seem to be in full anarchy, leaderless modes today (or perhaps the last 40 years). Social media isn't helping. Enablers aren't helping. Generational single mother families are REALLY not helping. Loudmouth anti-social contrarian types aren't helping. Society's double standards on child abuse is not helping (an infant/kid is allowed to grow up in the most violent family and setting imaginable, but a suburban mom loses custody if her 9-year old walks home from school?). Etc. Etc.

 

The realistic answer is that society - especially now with all the BLM, critical race theory, microaggression inventions, and other one-way conversations - isn't willing to address the core issues when discussing crime. Instead, we're distracting ourselves with changing team names, having new holidays, and seeking old social media posts for anything potentially prejudicial - none of which has an impact on the eventual 6500 homicides in Chicago this year, 150 or so in Cleveland, 500 in NYC, etc. 

 

I consider myself liberal, but my god do they not make it easy sometimes. There does need to be a conversation on race, but it has to be a legitimate one that discusses both institutional racism and also that enabled subculture of violence.

 

 

 

 

“Subculture of violence” is often code for “black people are more violent”. Which is not true. Look at any study that correlates poverty and crime and it’s always the same, when poverty goes up, crime goes up, when poverty goes down, crime goes down. That’s why I said earlier that you have to use both the carrot and the stick approach. Talking about a “subculture of violence” while ignoring the fact that culture generally is a mirror reflecting the conditions on the ground is unhelpful and counterproductive. A “subculture” is a problem insofar as the conditions that it reflects on the ground is a problem. The “subculture of violence” exists BECAUSE of the conditions on the ground. It didn’t create the conditions. It reflects them. So you have to address the conditions on the ground, which I believe is a combination of aggressive RICO style prosecution of these gangs while also improving the conditions on the ground so you don’t create more criminals to replace the ones you just locked up. If it’s all carrot and no stick, it doesn’t address the immediacy of the problems on the ground. If it’s all stick and no carrot, then you’re just trying to plug a boat full of holes. Once you plug in one, here comes another. You have to do both

3 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said:

Funny that out of everything that was said, that’s what you react the strongest to but I digress 

 

Since the rest seemed to be predicated on that statement I didn't bother with it.

@inlovewithCLEYou are correct, Cleveland never had a hardcore gang problem even when compared with peer cities like St Louis or Detroit. We were taught this as statistical fact in Urban Planning classes at CSU when I was there in the early 90's.

When I lived in Cleveland there were large groups of people on dirt bikes, terrorizing motorists, riding up the hoods of their cars, weaving in and out of traffic. They must not be considered gangs, though.

Edited June 20, 20213 yr by David

Cleveland definitely has always had a super poverty bad behavior problem. That's different than hardcore rooted gang activity fighting over turf, which historically it avoided...for a while at least.

28 minutes ago, metrocity said:

@inlovewithCLEYou are correct, Cleveland never had a hardcore gang problem even when compared with peer cities like St Louis or Detroit. We were taught this as statistical fact in Urban Planning classes at CSU when I was there in the early 90's.

Referencing a class you took 30 years ago? How did they get their statistics? Did they go out to the hood and take surveys? Or assume the police department knows everything? I just got on Quora and they're listing dozens of gangs. https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-most-notorious-street-gangs-in-Cleveland-Ohio

Edited June 19, 20213 yr by David

3 hours ago, TBideon said:

The realistic answer is that society - especially now with all the BLM, critical race theory, microaggression inventions, and other one-way conversations - isn't willing to address the core issues when discussing crime. Instead, we're distracting ourselves with changing team names, having new holidays, and seeking old social media posts for anything potentially prejudicial - none of which has an impact on the eventual 650 homicides in Chicago this year, 150 or so in Cleveland, 500 in NYC, etc. 

It is unfortunate that when comparing the homicide totals for Cleveland to Chicago, the picture is far worse in Cleveland.  Last year, Cleveland had 190 homicides and the numbers this year are higher than the same time last year.  Chicago, population-wise, is about 7 times that of Cleveland.  Using your numbers, per capita, the homicide rate in Cleveland would translate to 1050.  On the national media front, a few years ago when the homicide totals for Chicago were rising, it received all sorts of coverage.  Cleveland's problem never received the national attention, even though the rate is much worse. 

 

Looking at the numbers the other way, that projected number of 650 in Chicago for this year would translate to about 93 for Cleveland.  The last time Cleveland had under 100 homicides was in 2013 when it had 88.     

It's because Obama was from Chicago, so conservative media was trying to tie him to Chicago's issues.

2 minutes ago, David said:

Referencing a class you took 30 years ago? How did they get their statistics? Did they go out to the hood and take surveys? Or assume the police department knows everything?

I don't know, it was data and statistics we were taught in multilple classes. And yes, that was the 90's so things may have changed which I think was the poster's point, that it seems to be becoming a problem now.

5 minutes ago, X said:

It's because Obama was from Chicago, so conservative media was trying to tie him to Chicago's issues.

True, that is part of it, but local media has not bothered to do their part either.  Local news outlets will do stories about the increased crime and homicide problems in Cleveland, but they do not focus on how bad it is in Cleveland.  A certain local publication for an extended period of time would completely avoid any sort of mention of actual numbers.  They would even go out of their way to shut down questions about the numbers.  That should have nothing to do with whomever is in the White House.  That publication reports the numbers now, but only every couple of weeks or following another particularly violent weekend.  

 

Maybe if local media did their job and put more light on the problems faced in Cleveland as compared to other bigger cities, there would be more outrage about the problem.  Perhaps they feared "getting shut out" by the Jackson administration.

42 minutes ago, metrocity said:

Cleveland definitely has always had a super poverty bad behavior problem. That's different than hardcore rooted gang activity fighting over turf, which historically it avoided...for a while at least.

You’re absolutely right. I’m from the hood, and I was there during the crack era as well. Today is worse in many ways. Because of the level of organization of these gangs, which is something we never had. Also, the OGs are gone. There’s no rules anymore. Poverty and disinvestment in those neighborhoods have gotten worse, not better. Drug use is creeping back up. So what you were told in your class was an absolute fact when compared to the facts on the ground at the time from the people who actually lived in the neighborhoods we’re talking about. (I’m really curious at how many people on this forum who are pushing back against the facts that I brought up and you backed up with what you learned actually spent any meaningful time in the neighborhoods that we’re talking about, either during the crack era or now. I’m not gonna be lectured to by folks who don’t even have a frame of reference to compare what’s going on today to)

1 hour ago, X said:

 

Since the rest seemed to be predicated on that statement I didn't bother with it.

Not surprised 

17 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

You’re absolutely right. I’m from the hood, and I was there during the crack era as well. Today is worse in many ways. Because of the level of organization of these gangs, which is something we never had. Also, the OGs are gone. There’s no rules anymore. Poverty and disinvestment in those neighborhoods have gotten worse, not better. Drug use is creeping back up. So what you were told in your class was an absolute fact when compared to the facts on the ground at the time from the people who actually lived in the neighborhoods we’re talking about. (I’m really curious at how many people on this forum who are pushing back against the facts that I brought up and you backed up with what you learned actually spent any meaningful time in the neighborhoods that we’re talking about, either during the crack era or now. I’m not gonna be lectured to by folks who don’t even have a frame of reference to compare what’s going on today to)

I won't claim to have grown up in the hood, I didn't, but it is great on forum like this to have your perspective. During my time at CSU I worked at an athletic shoe store at Randall Park Mall and lived in North Collinwood and Buckeye/Shaker. None of those places had any super organized gang activity, but some troublemakers...yes.

 

You are correct, Cleveland had some of it, but really small time compared to other cities historically. That sucks to hear that you think that has changed.

 

 

No, didn't grow up in the hood, either.  But I worked with community residents trying to improve their neighborhoods around Hough and Glenville 20 years ago and they said the exact same things you are saying now about how the OG's "used to keep things in order, there used to be rules, it wasn't this bad back then, now the young bloods are out of control."  Its the same old, same old complaint. 

 

It's like a couple of folks on here who pine for the old days when the mafia "kept the underworld in line and there were rules and lines they didn't cross."  BS.  It's always been the same violence, the same killing.  The numbers fluctuate, for sure, but the story is the same- young guys without much hope.  I'm not claiming to have any answers.

Social media I think also trends towards larger groups congregating causing trouble, too. It's very easy to spread the wrong message on Facebook or through a myriad of other applications. Case in point: Police use pepper spray to disperse crowd of hundreds of juveniles outside Pinecrest

12 hours ago, X said:

No, didn't grow up in the hood, either.  But I worked with community residents trying to improve their neighborhoods around Hough and Glenville 20 years ago and they said the exact same things you are saying now about how the OG's "used to keep things in order, there used to be rules, it wasn't this bad back then, now the young bloods are out of control."  Its the same old, same old complaint. 

 

It's like a couple of folks on here who pine for the old days when the mafia "kept the underworld in line and there were rules and lines they didn't cross."  BS.  It's always been the same violence, the same killing.  The numbers fluctuate, for sure, but the story is the same- young guys without much hope.  I'm not claiming to have any answers.

The wave of the 80s-90s WAS worse than what happened in the 70s. And today is getting worse (in some neighborhoods) than what it was in the 80s and 90s. Both can be true. So if you were talking to people about the streets 20 years ago and they said how bad the streets were, they WERE worse than what they grew up with, and they had the proper frame of reference to compare the two. If you’re not from it, you don’t have a frame of reference to even compare it to, and a little humility and deference to the ones who actually did goes a long way if you actually want to talk solutions.

The mob was before my time, so I can’t speak on that. But I know the hood, and there has definitely been a loss of any street code whatsoever today

14 hours ago, metrocity said:

I won't claim to have grown up in the hood, I didn't, but it is great on forum like this to have your perspective. During my time at CSU I worked at an athletic shoe store at Randall Park Mall and lived in North Collinwood and Buckeye/Shaker. None of those places had any super organized gang activity, but some troublemakers...yes.

 

You are correct, Cleveland had some of it, but really small time compared to other cities historically. That sucks to hear that you think that has changed.

 

 

We never had groups as big or as organized as HF and LA. You didn’t have that in Cleveland. When I was growing up the gangs were like small neighborhood troublemakers. They were cliques, not actual organizations. HF and LA developed fairly recently. 

20 years ago was 2001 (I'm actually talking about 2003-2005 ish so I guess 15-18 years ago), which was the lowest crime rates in Cleveland's last several decades- that's my point.  Everybody, everywhere, at every time thinks that young people were better back when they were young people and that now the kids are out of control.

 

At any rate, I'll drop it, as its turning into a tangent.

The hoods have been deteriorating since at least the 60s. That’s the point. Every decade it HAS gotten worse. But again, if you aren’t from there and have no real history there, you don’t know that 

Edited June 20, 20213 yr by inlovewithCLE

Saw the many police, fire, EMS and Coast Guard at the USCG-Cleveland station at East 9th Street pier this evening. Couldn't tell what was happening until I saw these posts......

 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, KJP said:

Saw the many police, fire, EMS and Coast Guard at the USCG-Cleveland station at East 9th Street pier this evening. Couldn't tell what was happening until I saw these posts......

 

 

 

 

 

Terrible incident, but worth noting that NE Ohio Scanner is typically way ahead of the local media.

Downtown apartment shootings, Flats shootings, West 6th shootings, and now shootings within a downtown hotel. 😔

Is that from the Citizen app? I definitely use it often -- and last weekend it was on fire.

There is literally not one inch in this city where you are safe from gunfire. I'm sorry but it's really no wonder why the population continues to go down despite the improvements to downtown.

16 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

There is literally not one inch in this city where you are safe from gunfire. I'm sorry but it's really no wonder why the population continues to go down despite the improvements to downtown.

 

 Show me a place in America that is.

3 hours ago, KJP said:

 

 Show me a place in America that is.

Pitt, Minneapolis, Indianapolis

19 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Pitt, Minneapolis, Indianapolis

 

Oh but the headlines everywhere are so scary!!!

 

 

 

But, headlines are scary everywhere. Fact is crime is down everywhere over the past 30 years, including in Cleveland. I pulled the above headlines because they show that headlines aren't indicative of trends. But if you want to scare people into watching your local news, there's always some blood out there to accomplish that....

 

 

47 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Oh but the headlines everywhere are so scary!!!

 

 

 

But, headlines are scary everywhere. Fact is crime is down everywhere over the past 30 years, including in Cleveland. I pulled the above headlines because they show that headlines aren't indicative of trends. But if you want to scare people into watching your local news, there's always some blood out there to accomplish that....

 

 

I'm a Cleveland Police Officer. I try not to comment on this thread for obvious reasons. My opinion will always seem biased, but in this case my opinion is probably more informed and based in fact than anything any of you can pull from the news. Yes. Murders are way up this year. However, almost every casualty of gun violence is typically someone who was targeted. Don't get me wrong, innocent people get struck but it's a small portion.

 

Unless you live in the Fourth District, small parts of the Third District, or Fifth District, or you are part of a gang, dealing drugs, or generally involved in criminal activity, your chances of being a casualty of this violence is small.  

 

Safety is one hundred percent relative. I go Downtown frequently (hundreds of times) for pleasure and I have never been a casualty of violence nor have I even witnessed what one would consider a violent felony occur. 

 

If you fear being a casualty of violence then the best way to do avoid that as an innocent bystander is to avoid inner city gas stations or corner stores. Otherwise your odds of being a casualty are far less than being a motor vehicle casualty and probably somewhere closer to being struck by lightning. 

On 7/9/2021 at 2:56 PM, KFM44107 said:

I'm a Cleveland Police Officer. I try not to comment on this thread for obvious reasons. My opinion will always seem biased, but in this case my opinion is probably more informed and based in fact than anything any of you can pull from the news. Yes. Murders are way up this year. However, almost every casualty of gun violence is typically someone who was targeted. Don't get me wrong, innocent people get struck but it's a small portion.

 

Unless you live in the Fourth District, small parts of the Third District, or Fifth District, or you are part of a gang, dealing drugs, or generally involved in criminal activity, your chances of being a casualty of this violence is small.  

 

Safety is one hundred percent relative. I go Downtown frequently (hundreds of times) for pleasure and I have never been a casualty of violence nor have I even witnessed what one would consider a violent felony occur. 

 

If you fear being a casualty of violence then the best way to do avoid that as an innocent bystander is to avoid inner city gas stations or corner stores. Otherwise your odds of being a casualty are far less than being a motor vehicle casualty and probably somewhere closer to being struck by lightning. 

How bad is the staffing problem for Cleveland's police department?  Several months ago, numbers were supplied stating that due to COVID-19, attrition and small/canceled police academy classes, the department's size was approaching approximately 1400 officers (if I recall correctly).  Has any progress been made stemming the net loss in officers or has the contraction continued?  What does the outlook appear to be in the foreseeable future?  I know that the results of the mayoral election will have a bearing on the direction is taken, but how do things look now?

1 hour ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

How bad is the staffing problem for Cleveland's police department?  Several months ago, numbers were supplied stating that due to COVID-19, attrition and small/canceled police academy classes, the department's size was approaching approximately 1400 officers (if I recall correctly).  Has any progress been made stemming the net loss in officers or has the contraction continued?  What does the outlook appear to be in the foreseeable future?  I know that the results of the mayoral election will have a bearing on the direction is taken, but how do things look now?

We are down 250 officers from pre Covid. I get mandated to stay over atleast once a week. Staffing levels are terrible and they can't find enough people who want to be police for obvious reasons. We are supposed to start a new academy every other month with around 75 recruits for the rest of the year but that still won't help because we are losing 20 a month to retirement or people leaving to greener pastures. Plus those academy classes will only really yield closer to 50 new officers after attrition. 

1 hour ago, KFM44107 said:

We are down 250 officers from pre Covid. I get mandated to stay over atleast once a week. Staffing levels are terrible and they can't find enough people who want to be police for obvious reasons. We are supposed to start a new academy every other month with around 75 recruits for the rest of the year but that still won't help because we are losing 20 a month to retirement or people leaving to greener pastures. Plus those academy classes will only really yield closer to 50 new officers after attrition. 

What was the size of the police department pre-COVID?  I thought it was around 1550, but that number may be high.  Even if it was 1550, that would put the number around 1300 and that is downright scary, for both the citizens and the department overall.  I would imagine that morale must be awful.  A loss of 250 officers from 1550 is nearly a sixth of the force.

 

Regarding what you stated regarding academy classes every other month starting out at about 75 recruits shrinking down to 50 when they graduate and every month the loses through retirement and other attrition of 20 officers makes the numbers even more dismal.   It translates to gaining 50 new officers every month yet losing 40.  Gaining only 5 additional officers a month at this rate and it will take over 4 years to just get back to pre-COVID levels.  That doesn't even take into account other potential surges in retirements and attrition. 

 

Supposed to start a new academy class every other month?  Does that in actuality happen?  Lose just one class a year and it is just treading water.

 

Thank you for the information as bad as it is.

 

2 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

What was the size of the police department pre-COVID?  I thought it was around 1550, but that number may be high.  Even if it was 1550, that would put the number around 1300 and that is downright scary, for both the citizens and the department overall.  I would imagine that morale must be awful.  A loss of 250 officers from 1550 is nearly a sixth of the force.

 

Regarding what you stated regarding academy classes every other month starting out at about 75 recruits shrinking down to 50 when they graduate and every month the loses through retirement and other attrition of 20 officers makes the numbers even more dismal.   It translates to gaining 50 new officers every month yet losing 40.  Gaining only 5 additional officers a month at this rate and it will take over 4 years to just get back to pre-COVID levels.  That doesn't even take into account other potential surges in retirements and attrition. 

 

Supposed to start a new academy class every other month?  Does that in actuality happen?  Lose just one class a year and it is just treading water.

 

Thank you for the information as bad as it is.

 

Yes. They will be having academy classes every other month. 

 

You are correct, it will take four years. Oddly, something around 30-40 percent of the department is within four years of retiring. Once we get through this half decade I wouldn't be surprised to see hiring freezes because the department will be so young. 

33 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

Yes. They will be having academy classes every other month. 

 

You are correct, it will take four years. Oddly, something around 30-40 percent of the department is within four years of retiring. Once we get through this half decade I wouldn't be surprised to see hiring freezes because the department will be so young. 

So, based upon what you are saying, there really isn't any light at the end of the tunnel.  With such a large percentage of the department nearing retirement, the academy classes will have trouble keeping up with the loss of officers.  Too much experience and knowledge will be lost without the proper time to pass it on to the younger officers.  Then, the city will have to face a hiring freeze in the not too distant future.  It really sounds like it will be a challenge just to get up to the pre-COVID staffing level.  It sounds downright impossible that any inroads will be made to increase the department's size from pre-COVID numbers.

 

I can imagine that burnout will hit the department big time, if it hasn't already.  The other thing that one has to consider is that in almost any profession, one tends to be more open towards changing employment when starting out.  They get their first few years of experience and move on.  If the job of being a Cleveland police officer ends up not being worth it due to all of the stresses and lack of support from the top, that young police department will be facing significant attrition.  Cleveland will train them and get them their initial on the job experience only to benefit the police departments that will hire them away. 

 

Wonder if the high percentage of officers nearing retirement is in large part due the financial crisis faced by Mayor Campbell when she came into office with the layoffs, hiring freezes and cutbacks. 

Edited July 11, 20213 yr by LifeLongClevelander

2 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

So, based upon what you are saying, there really isn't any light at the end of the tunnel.  With such a large percentage of the department nearing retirement, the academy classes will have trouble keeping up with the loss of officers.  Too much experience and knowledge will be lost without the proper time to pass it on to the younger officers.  Then, the city will have to face a hiring freeze in the not too distant future.  It really sounds like it will be a challenge just to get up to the pre-COVID staffing level.  It sounds downright impossible that any inroads will be made to increase the department's size from pre-COVID numbers.

 

I can imagine that burnout will hit the department big time, if it hasn't already.  The other thing that one has to consider is that in almost any profession, one tends to be more open towards changing employment when starting out.  They get their first few years of experience and move on.  If the job of being a Cleveland police officer ends up not being worth it due to all of the stresses and lack of support from the top, that young police department will be facing significant attrition.  Cleveland will train them and get them their initial on the job experience only to benefit the police departments that will hire them away. 

 

Wonder if the high percentage of officers nearing retirement is in large part due the financial crisis faced by Mayor Campbell when she came into office with the layoffs, hiring freezes and cutbacks. 

Ya. With the current management, and a safety director more interested in hanging out punishments opposed to giving us proper resources there's a ton of morale issues. This out coming academy class is graduating 37 and I believe five already have other jobs in the suburbs. We probably lose another four or five a month to other departments who are also facing similar shortages. 

1 hour ago, KFM44107 said:

Ya. With the current management, and a safety director more interested in hanging out punishments opposed to giving us proper resources there's a ton of morale issues. This out coming academy class is graduating 37 and I believe five already have other jobs in the suburbs. We probably lose another four or five a month to other departments who are also facing similar shortages. 

The police brass may think the department will recover to pre-COVID size in 4 years, but the numbers and trends indicate say something else.  This sort of information indicates the police department will be in the range of 1200 officers in the not too distant future.  If someone wins the mayoral race that holds an anti-police stance or is from the same line of thinking like Jackson, I don't want to think of the consequences.