https://go.citizen.com/uOhpTxhRXkb

 

Closer and closer to packed areas

27 minutes ago, downtownjoe said:

https://go.citizen.com/uOhpTxhRXkb

 

Closer and closer to packed areas

Um that is a packed area. That's literally across the street from Mitchell's. 2 shootings on W25th and Lorain within a week a month ago and now this. Does the city just not give a damn about violent crime, even in the growing areas? Has City Council given up? Because who is going to want to pay thousands in rent just to wake up to dead people outside your doorsteps?

35 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Um that is a packed area. That's literally across the street from Mitchell's. 2 shootings on W25th and Lorain within a week a month ago and now this. Does the city just not give a damn about violent crime, even in the growing areas? Has City Council given up? Because who is going to want to pay thousands in rent just to wake up to dead people outside your doorsteps?

This is the real problem, not only in Cleveland but in suburbs and elsewhere.  Early teens and pre-teens committing more and more violent crime.  A 91-woman who was everyone's friend is killed and left in bushes.  It is getting worse.  Yet, to see it play out in the media and in the government, especially in certain segments, the focus is on a relative handful of bad police officers or unfortunate incidents.  We keep on hearing about those incidents over and over again while in less than 8 years, Cleveland has seen over 1100 homicides and counting.  Last year, there were 190 homicides committed and that was the highest rate based upon population in the city's history, eclipsing the rate in 1972 when 333 homicides were committed.  This year, Cleveland is on pace to see another 180 to 200 homicides. 

 

In future years, will Cleveland's homicide numbers ranging from 180 to 200 be the new normal or will we be wishing for a return to those as being lower? 

  

1 hour ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Um that is a packed area. That's literally across the street from Mitchell's. 2 shootings on W25th and Lorain within a week a month ago and now this. Does the city just not give a damn about violent crime, even in the growing areas? Has City Council given up? Because who is going to want to pay thousands in rent just to wake up to dead people outside your doorsteps?

 

21 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

This is the real problem, not only in Cleveland but in suburbs and elsewhere.  Early teens and pre-teens committing more and more violent crime.  A 91-woman who was everyone's friend is killed and left in bushes.  It is getting worse.  Yet, to see it play out in the media and in the government, especially in certain segments, the focus is on a relative handful of bad police officers or unfortunate incidents.  We keep on hearing about those incidents over and over again while in less than 8 years, Cleveland has seen over 1100 homicides and counting.  Last year, there were 190 homicides committed and that was the highest rate based upon population in the city's history, eclipsing the rate in 1972 when 333 homicides were committed.  This year, Cleveland is on pace to see another 180 to 200 homicides. 

 

In future years, will Cleveland's homicide numbers ranging from 180 to 200 be the new normal or will we be wishing for a return to those as being lower? 

  

Overzealous, abusive cops and increasing incidents of violent crime are both big problems.  

 

How about we focus on solving both major issues instead of one or the other??

But unchecked abusive policing is the only answer to violent crime! Duh!

https://go.citizen.com/mXDn8Fv0Zkb
 

Car jacking in broad daylight in Ohio City.

27 minutes ago, downtownjoe said:

https://go.citizen.com/mXDn8Fv0Zkb
 

Car jacking in broad daylight in Ohio City.

@downtownjoe Please post a screenshot or a link (to something other than an app download).

3 hours ago, MayDay said:

@downtownjoe Please post a screenshot or a link (to something other than an app download).

5 hours ago, downtownjoe said:

https://go.citizen.com/mXDn8Fv0Zkb
 

Car jacking in broad daylight in Ohio City.

 

Don't worry. Justin Bibb will fix this. He's got plenty of experience and real, implementable and effective solutions.

6 minutes ago, Pugu said:

 

Don't worry. Justin Bibb will fix this. He's got plenty of experience and real, implementable and effective solutions.

So will getting all of those abusive police officers in line or kicked out.  That and the passage of Issue #24 will make all of the crime and violence issues go away.

6 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

So will getting all of those abusive police officers in line or kicked out.  That and the passage of Issue #24 will make all of the crime and violence issues go away.

So I get why we have a chase policy, especially with stupid stuff like a minor traffic violation. On the other end of the spectrum this summer some kids robbed this female of her car at pistol point. We found the kids immediately and asked permission to pursue and were denied. Those kids five minutes later went to a gas station, shot a guy in the stomach twice and stole his car. 

 

Our  response was calling in the Feds and our specialized units for the next two days to hunt these kids down, they got them after they took a few more cars but this could have been nipped in the butt if we handled it in the moment at the patrol level. 

 

I hope the new chief finds a middle ground that doesn't have officers and bosses scared to do their job, because as of now these kids are fearless of retribution. 

 

^That's precisely the issue. Issue #24 will make many officers afraid to do the right thing because something may inevitably go wrong, and rather than viewing the situation from a police operations perspective, non-police "citizens" will make the call whether or not they are fired or whatever. And the mayor himself can't even fully run his own police force. It makes no sense and even less sense that Bibb supported it. That's why its gonna be a very rough four years with that kind of "leadership" at city hall.

On 11/6/2021 at 10:48 AM, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Um that is a packed area. That's literally across the street from Mitchell's. 2 shootings on W25th and Lorain within a week a month ago and now this. Does the city just not give a damn about violent crime, even in the growing areas? Has City Council given up? Because who is going to want to pay thousands in rent just to wake up to dead people outside your doorsteps?

 

Outside a bar after 2am is unfortunately common, and usually has little or nothing to do with the neighborhood.   Though Lakeview Terrace is within walking distance, that *may* be a factor here.

This is why fewer bars stay open until 2:30.

Edited November 8, 20213 yr by E Rocc

27 minutes ago, Pugu said:

^That's precisely the issue. Issue #24 will make many officers afraid to do the right thing because something may inevitably go wrong, and rather than viewing the situation from a police operations perspective, non-police "citizens" will make the call whether or not they are fired or whatever. And the mayor himself can't even fully run his own police force. It makes no sense and even less sense that Bibb supported it. That's why its gonna be a very rough four years with that kind of "leadership" at city hall.

 

He supported it because his focus groups thought it sounded good in principle.

On 11/6/2021 at 11:57 AM, LifeLongClevelander said:

This is the real problem, not only in Cleveland but in suburbs and elsewhere.  Early teens and pre-teens committing more and more violent crime.  A 91-woman who was everyone's friend is killed and left in bushes.  It is getting worse.  Yet, to see it play out in the media and in the government, especially in certain segments, the focus is on a relative handful of bad police officers or unfortunate incidents.  We keep on hearing about those incidents over and over again while in less than 8 years, Cleveland has seen over 1100 homicides and counting.  Last year, there were 190 homicides committed and that was the highest rate based upon population in the city's history, eclipsing the rate in 1972 when 333 homicides were committed.  This year, Cleveland is on pace to see another 180 to 200 homicides. 

 

In future years, will Cleveland's homicide numbers ranging from 180 to 200 be the new normal or will we be wishing for a return to those as being lower? 

  

 

The juvenile courts are not accountable because the records are sealed.   But the perps, their families and friends know which judges are lenient and act accordingly.

Most of the homicides appear to be tied to gangs and the drug trade.  When an adult is the victim, they nearly always are known to the County court website.   

13 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

So I get why we have a chase policy, especially with stupid stuff like a minor traffic violation. On the other end of the spectrum this summer some kids robbed this female of her car at pistol point. We found the kids immediately and asked permission to pursue and were denied. Those kids five minutes later went to a gas station, shot a guy in the stomach twice and stole his car. 

 

Our  response was calling in the Feds and our specialized units for the next two days to hunt these kids down, they got them after they took a few more cars but this could have been nipped in the butt if we handled it in the moment at the patrol level. 

 

I hope the new chief finds a middle ground that doesn't have officers and bosses scared to do their job, because as of now these kids are fearless of retribution. 

 

The vast majority of police officers are good ones, yet due to a few bad ones or incidents that don't even happen near here, they get lumped together with the bad ones.  The good ones will second-guess themselves, hesitate or due to the need to "follow orders", it empowers the criminal element all the more.  It Cleveland or the suburbs, if individuals commit crimes and flee, they pretty much know if they run, they will get away to do more criminal acts.  If the suburban officers decide to not pursue or if they do and the perpetrators cross into Cleveland, they are have reached safe haven.

 

Wonder how that guy who got shot twice and had his car stolen feels about things?  How about the others who were victimized?  At least in this case, it appears that nobody lost lives because of supervisors decided to not let a pursuit happen.   Curious to find out if the anti-police/blame all the police crowd for all that is bad would feel if they were victimized by these thugs who were allowed to get away.

13 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

The juvenile courts are not accountable because the records are sealed.   But the perps, their families and friends know which judges are lenient and act accordingly.

Most of the homicides appear to be tied to gangs and the drug trade.  When an adult is the victim, they nearly always are known to the County court website.   

There are also those who are unfortunate to get caught up in the cross-fire of two gangs like that poor girl who was eating ice cream in her mom's car when her mom went to pick up her older brother.  Those gangs and the drug trade have a way of causing innocent victims through their robberies and burglaries.  As for these teenagers who commit adult acts like homicide and violent acts, they need to lose the "protection" that is afforded them under the law.  They know EXACTLY what they are doing and the consequences their victims will face.  Since they have decided to commit adult acts, they needed to be treated like adults.  Stop coddling and protecting them.

On 11/6/2021 at 10:48 AM, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Um that is a packed area. That's literally across the street from Mitchell's. 2 shootings on W25th and Lorain within a week a month ago and now this. Does the city just not give a damn about violent crime, even in the growing areas? Has City Council given up? Because who is going to want to pay thousands in rent just to wake up to dead people outside your doorsteps?

The guy was apprehended quickly. Serious question, what else can the police do?

 

The problem is the prevalence of guns in this city. Unless that changes shootings are going to continue to happen 🤷🏻‍♂️

11 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

So will getting all of those abusive police officers in line or kicked out.  That and the passage of Issue #24 will make all of the crime and violence issues go away.

So you're saying it would be a better outcome if the victim's brand new Honda was returned with 144 bullet holes and blood stains?  

11 hours ago, Pugu said:

^That's precisely the issue. Issue #24 will make many officers afraid to do the right thing because something may inevitably go wrong, and rather than viewing the situation from a police operations perspective, non-police "citizens" will make the call whether or not they are fired or whatever. And the mayor himself can't even fully run his own police force. It makes no sense and even less sense that Bibb supported it. That's why its gonna be a very rough four years with that kind of "leadership" at city hall.

 

I'm not sure of a single instance where doing the right thing has resulted in the death of an unarmed civilian - but okay. 

 

As an aside, I know Ohio City Inc has taken matters into its own hands to a degree. They increased the presence of cameras substantially in the area, and I happen to know that these cameras have assisted police in solving a large amount of opportunity crime recently. It's not the answer to everything, but it's a nice start. 

 

Additionally, I feel like 50+% of violent crime in the neighborhood happens within a quarter mile of Linda's Superette. Absolutely zero statistics to back that up, but I always turn right instead of waiting at that light when its dark out, because it almost always feels sketchy

38 minutes ago, Enginerd said:

The guy was apprehended quickly. Serious question, what else can the police do?

 

The problem is the prevalence of guns in this city. Unless that changes shootings are going to continue to happen 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

That's not the problem.   Most of my neighbors, regardless of political affiliation, have guns.  None, to my knowledge, are criminals.  

The problem is not "gun violence" it is criminal violence.  Predominantly associated with gangs and the drug trade.   Though as @LifeLongClevelanderpoints out, one need not be involved in same to be a victim of such.

The problem is rooted in a subculture that won't be going away anytime soon.   They need to be off the streets.   Including, perhaps especially, juveniles who are becoming a part of it, and often get delegated the dirty work.

 

2 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

I'm not sure of a single instance where doing the right thing has resulted in the death of an unarmed civilian - but okay. 

 

As an aside, I know Ohio City Inc has taken matters into its own hands to a degree. They increased the presence of cameras substantially in the area, and I happen to know that these cameras have assisted police in solving a large amount of opportunity crime recently. It's not the answer to everything, but it's a nice start. 

 

Additionally, I feel like 50+% of violent crime in the neighborhood happens within a quarter mile of Linda's Superette. Absolutely zero statistics to back that up, but I always turn right instead of waiting at that light when its dark out, because it almost always feels sketchy

 

What percentage of your law abiding neighbors would you say have guns in their homes?

1 minute ago, E Rocc said:

 

What percentage of your law abiding neighbors would you say have guns in their homes?

 

No idea. I do, and I know my neighbor does, but I'm not sure of the neighborhood as a whole

42 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

So you're saying it would be a better outcome if the victim's brand new Honda was returned with 144 bullet holes and blood stains?  

What a load of nonsense.  I didn't even hint at that.  Maybe you would prefer for the ones who robbed and shot someone to get away to repeat the act over and over again.  Eventually somebody is going to pay the ultimate price and I would hope that it isn't somebody who happens to be going to the gas station to fill up their car.  Then again, when robbing someone and shooting their victim, the first victim gets one or two bullet holes and their family members aren't worried about a Honda, but a casket instead.  If somebody is perfectly willing to shoot someone during a robbery, I don't think they are anatomy experts that knows exactly where potential non-fatal injuries can occur.

Edited November 8, 20213 yr by LifeLongClevelander

1 hour ago, YABO713 said:

 

No idea. I do, and I know my neighbor does, but I'm not sure of the neighborhood as a whole

 

I'm not technically sure either, but anecdotal would suggest at least half.

People don't always share that they do either, in general....

Edited November 8, 20213 yr by E Rocc

7 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

I'm not technically sure either, but anecdotal would suggest at least half.

People don't always share that they do either, in general....

Easily. The east side is probably even higher. 

13 hours ago, KFM44107 said:

Easily. The east side is probably even higher. 

 

 Yes, I'm east side right on the Lake.  5th district.

23 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

What a load of nonsense.  I didn't even hint at that.  Maybe you would prefer for the ones who robbed and shot someone to get away to repeat the act over and over again.  Eventually somebody is going to pay the ultimate price and I would hope that it isn't somebody who happens to be going to the gas station to fill up their car.  Then again, when robbing someone and shooting their victim, the first victim gets one or two bullet holes and their family members aren't worried about a Honda, but a casket instead.  If somebody is perfectly willing to shoot someone during a robbery, I don't think they are anatomy experts that knows exactly where potential non-fatal injuries can occur.

Issue 24 is about stopping bad cops from doing bad things, not stopping cops from fighting crime.  I'm not sure why that police are so worried about this.   It's almost like Loomis brainwashed them.  

Isn't it also true that CPD is already under an independent oversight board as part of the consent decree? They're still doing their jobs and when I hear about issues with the department it is usually attributable to funding. 

 

This plan would be to just make that oversight board permanent after a transition when the consent decree is lifted. 

1 hour ago, Cleburger said:

Issue 24 is about stopping bad cops from doing bad things, not stopping cops from fighting crime.  I'm not sure why that police are so worried about this.   It's almost like Loomis brainwashed them.  

 

Having been in a position where part of my job was making people (who did not work with me) do things they did not wish to, I can say that I only begin to get what cops deal with, and no one who has never been in that role comes close to that level of understanding. 

 

It seems that by design, this commission will not only include such people but those who do not wish to see certain laws enforced at all.   Hence the problem.

11 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

It seems that by design, this commission will not only include such people but those who do not wish to see certain laws enforced at all.   Hence the problem.

 

It will also include representatives from law enforcement organizations.

4 hours ago, Luke_S said:

 

It will also include representatives from law enforcement organizations.

So kind of the same problem not wanting certain laws to be enforced.... 

 

4 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Having been in a position where part of my job was making people (who did not work with me) do things they did not wish to, I can say that I only begin to get what cops deal with, and no one who has never been in that role comes close to that level of understanding. 

 

City of Cleveland cops do deal with a lot.   My hope is the civilian review board at least cuts down on the Michael Brelos and Timothy Loehmanns and puts good cops in their place.  

Also when are we going to mention that the safest communities aren’t the ones with the most police, but the most resources. Elephant in the room here. Poverty, redlining, institutional discrimination, income inequality being exacerbated, etc are leading indicators of crime.

Edited November 9, 20213 yr by Clefan14

I think you missed the main elephant in the room there.

8 hours ago, Cleburger said:

Issue 24 is about stopping bad cops from doing bad things, not stopping cops from fighting crime.  I'm not sure why that police are so worried about this.   It's almost like Loomis brainwashed them.  

Unless you have INSIGHT on the internal workings of the Cleveland Police Department, I would put a lot more weight and credence on comments from an actual CPD officer, @KFM44107 as this individual as a far better idea how their fellow officers think and what is going on behind the scenes (copied from earlier in this discussion):

 

Nothing to do with funding and everything to do with no one wanting to be a police officer in this current climate. Can't find enough qualified candidates. 

 

And @KFM44107made these comments in the Cleveland Mayoral Race 2021 discussion:

 

Deny it all you want, but this CPD officer has a very good idea of the impact of Issue #24 on the department.  It could be a deciding factor in officers retiring and in those who can leave for other departments.  For every Loehmann and Brelo, there are probably a hundred (or more) good, decent officers who if they don't quit/retire from CPD may start having doubts of what negative actions may befall them should they make a split-second decision that doesn't go well.  In the end, from the knowledge that@KFM44107 brings from the job, a police department that is already significantly understaffed that will see more attrition (perhaps accelerated) of experienced officers, the loss of good younger officers that would help fill the void to other departments and not being able to recruit enough new ones does not bode well for the future.  With the departures of good officers and the inability of the poorer ones from getting hired elsewhere, it may increase the percentages of bad officers in CPD.

 

Edited November 9, 20213 yr by LifeLongClevelander

3 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

Unless you have INSIGHT on the internal workings of the Cleveland Police Department, I would put a lot more weight and credence on comments from an actual CPD officer, @KFM44107 as this individual as a far better idea how their fellow officers think and what is going on behind the scenes (copied from earlier in this discussion):

 

Nothing to do with funding and everything to do with no one wanting to be a police officer in this current climate. Can't find enough qualified candidates. 

 

And @KFM44107made these comments in the Cleveland Mayoral Race 2021 discussion:

 

Deny it all you want, but this CPD officer has a very good idea of the impact of Issue #24 on the department.  It could be a deciding factor in officers retiring and in those who can leave for other departments.  For every Loehmann and Brelo, there are probably a hundred (or more) good, decent officers who if they don't quit/retire from CPD may start having doubts of what negative actions may befall them should they make a split-second decision that doesn't go well.  In the end, from the knowledge that@KFM44107 brings from the job, a police department that is already significantly understaffed that will see more attrition (perhaps accelerated) of experienced officers and the loss of good younger officers that would help fill the void to other departments and not being able to recruit enough new ones does not bode well for the future.  With the departures of good officers and the inability of the poorer ones from getting hired elsewhere, it may increase the percentages of bad officers in CPD.

 

I would worry less about the quality of officers leftover and more about how understaffed we could possibly be. It is what it is.

 

I just hope alot of people don't leave and atleast wait it out a little so we can get some more academy classes going. We are only averaging 60 (our last one o ly ended up being 36 because alot of them took jobs with other departments right out of the academy). With that average we would somehow need to find 60 people per class four times a year just to keep up with attrition. That will be hard.  

 

The good news is at some point all these suburban jobs will get filled and then there will be one less option for people. 

 

All that said, I think we will be heavily understaffed for atleast the next half decade no matter what happens. The only question is whether it will be a leaky spout over many years or a Niagra Falls up front. 

2 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

I would worry less about the quality of officers leftover and more about how understaffed we could possibly be. It is what it is.

 

I just hope alot of people don't leave and atleast wait it out a little so we can get some more academy classes going. We are only averaging 60 (our last one o ly ended up being 36 because alot of them took jobs with other departments right out of the academy). With that average we would somehow need to find 60 people per class four times a year just to keep up with attrition. That will be hard.  

 

The good news is at some point all these suburban jobs will get filled and then there will be one less option for people. 

 

All that said, I think we will be heavily understaffed for atleast the next half decade no matter what happens. The only question is whether it will be a leaky spout over many years or a Niagra Falls up front. 

The under staffing issues are scary to say the least.  A department that is already spread way too thin translates to increased response times.  Increased response times may lead to the perpetrators getting away to only cause more crimes.  Then certain people will get on their soapboxes complaining about a lack of a police presence, increased crime and calling for more police protection that won't be there.  A lose-lose situation.  

20 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

The under staffing issues are scary to say the least.  A department that is already spread way too thin translates to increased response times.  Increased response times may lead to the perpetrators getting away to only cause more crimes.  Then certain people will get on their soapboxes complaining about a lack of a police presence, increased crime and calling for more police protection that won't be there.  A lose-lose situation.  

 

Plus they had on the news the other night, growing regions and places like Phoenix have been recruiting police away from Cleveland and NEOhio.  While they don't necessary blow the local pay out of the water, they are offering hefty signing bonuses as well as touting the better quality of life (weather).  They spoke with several that accepted the offer.  

At least Bibb indicated he wanted to boost police salaries among other things… 

1 hour ago, willyboy said:

 

Plus they had on the news the other night, growing regions and places like Phoenix have been recruiting police away from Cleveland and NEOhio.  While they don't necessary blow the local pay out of the water, they are offering hefty signing bonuses as well as touting the better quality of life (weather).  They spoke with several that accepted the offer.  

At least Bibb indicated he wanted to boost police salaries among other things… 

Excellent points.  The suburban police departments can only hire so many officers from Cleveland, but then there is nothing that says police officers cannot be hired away by other departments from outside the area or outside of the state.  Increasing pay may "help" to retain officers for Cleveland, but more money only can only make up for so much.  With the extreme staffing shortage, surely the CPD officers are pulling a higher annual income, but that comes at the cost of working longer, stress and burnout.  Higher salaries are nice, but factoring in the negatives of the job and if the job still stinks with officers being wary of every action taken, other departments may be far more attractive to go to. 

Edited November 10, 20213 yr by LifeLongClevelander

25 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

Excellent points.  The suburban police departments can only hire so many officers from Cleveland, but then there is nothing that says police officers cannot be hired away by other departments from outside the area or outside of the state.  Increasing pay may "help" to retain officers for Cleveland, but more money only can only make up for so much.  With the extreme staffing shortage, surely the CPD officers are pulling a higher annual income, but that comes at the cost of working longer, stress and burnout.  Higher salaries are nice, but factoring in the negatives of the job and if the job still stinks with officers being wary of every action taken, other departments may be far more attractive to go to. 

I can tell you no one's leaving out of state because of the pension headaches. We've had three people leave down to Columbus suburbs in the last year but all three came back oddly. 

 

Word is that our next contract will have a nice pay raise hopefully to retain and attract talent. Not that we make bad money now but most of these suburbs are paying their officers absurd amounts of money. Like how does an Avon cop make 90k? Those guys don't earn that. 

 

I think fair market value for our services should be between 76k and 80k base. Any suburb paying more than that for police who do less/no work is a waste of taxpayer dollars that could be spent elsewhere.

 

To respond to the question I know that's bound to come up, no you aren't paying for better trained police in the suburbs with that extra money. I'm always amazed when I go to assist the suburbs how over the top they take every situation. They're like cowboys with ridiculous toys they never get to use.

 

Meanwhile we have shotguns from the 80s in our cars and zone cars that barely work. It's like being in the Marine Corps of police departments. 

 

 

11 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

I think fair market value for our services should be between 76k and 80k base. Any suburb paying more than that for police who do less/no work is a waste of taxpayer dollars that could be spent elsewhere.

 

Completely spot on.   This is what happens when your entire political base in a place like Avon is brainwashed with "Back the Blue."   The local politicians basically give the police union a blank check. 

If anything, there should be federal dollars to bump up salaries for big and poor city cops, rather than investing in more military grade hardware for the suburbs.  

3 hours ago, KFM44107 said:

 

Meanwhile we have shotguns from the 80s in our cars and zone cars that barely work. It's like being in the Marine Corps of police departments. 

 

The situation sounds similar to something I heard way back when Cleveland had the lime green (or similar color) for patrol cars.  They were so worn out, their top speed was something like 25-30 mph.  No concerns about having high speed chases.  A fleeing criminal could speed away leaving the officers behind because they couldn't muster the speed to chase.  Things have gone full circle.

19 hours ago, Cleburger said:

 

Completely spot on.   This is what happens when your entire political base in a place like Avon is brainwashed with "Back the Blue."   The local politicians basically give the police union a blank check. 

If anything, there should be federal dollars to bump up salaries for big and poor city cops, rather than investing in more military grade hardware for the suburbs.  

 

The like was for the last part, but that's not likely to happen.  Any such money is likely to go to limited jurisdiction federal agencies.   

 

The political will to fight what could  be called predatory street crime is not there.   There’s too much of a lobby against such enforcement, which is tied to the enthusiasm for going after cops who make mistakes while enforcing such laws.

The “back the blue” mindset in Avon Lake and other places is reaction to same.   The extremists talk about invading those areas (which would be profoundly stupid) and politicians feed off that rhetoric for their own advantage.

 

The irony is that the victims of such crime are way more likely to be the people who live in the “bad” neighborhoods.  The Avon Lake attorney’s kid who somehow finds himself there?   It’s assumed he’s there to buy drugs and he is under the very aggressive protection of the gang that owns that territory.  It’s the people living in those areas who are both the direct and indirect victims of that crime.

 

To use a particularly notorious case as an example, Arthur Buford, unless he is really stupid, is far more likely to attempt to rob Damon Wells in his own yard than he is a passing white suburbanite.  The fact that his neighbors made him out to be a martyr is the true toxicity.

Damn, now there are a few names I haven't heard in a while. Damon Wells and his family just couldn't get a break; a terrible situation that the community made worse on every level.

2 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Damn, now there are a few names I haven't heard in a while. Damon Wells and his family just couldn't get a break; a terrible situation that the community made worse on every level.

 

Including, perhaps especially, the politicians who refused to address the reaction head on, or for that matter at all.  Even Regina Brett went off hard on what happened.

 

 

 

and