July 11, 20231 yr ^ Very interesting. Admittedly l'm not a gun guy and l really don't spend much time thinking about who uses guns and where but if someone had asked me l would have thought more gun deaths occurred in cities than rural areas. Those articles serve as an eye opener. Careful what you assume.
July 11, 20231 yr Guns kill about 42,000 Americans per year (roughly 16,000 are murders) https://www.bradyunited.org/key-statistics Cars kill about 46,000 Americans per year https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/auto-accident/car-accident-deaths/#:~:text=More than 46%2C000 people die,12.4 deaths per 100%2C000 inhabitants. I'd be just as worried (or way more worried) about spending hours behind the wheel each day, commuting from suburbia, as I was about crime in the city.
July 11, 20231 yr Holy cow!! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 11, 20231 yr Posted by @UkuleleCLE on the Twitterz The attacks in #Cleveland this last weekend were abhorrent. But those who say the downtown is "riddled with violence" obviously don't live here. The only times I've felt unsafe downtown are when SUV drivers from the suburbs come to our city for a ballgame and nearly run me down "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 12, 20231 yr 2 hours ago, Clefan98 said: The downtown shooter was arrested in Lorain earlier today. Will Bobby G**rge be paying out the $50 Grand reward he promised? When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
July 12, 20231 yr 12 hours ago, KJP said: Posted by @UkuleleCLE on the Twitterz The attacks in #Cleveland this last weekend were abhorrent. But those who say the downtown is "riddled with violence" obviously don't live here. The only times I've felt unsafe downtown are when SUV drivers from the suburbs come to our city for a ballgame and nearly run me down My friend who works in EY normally exudes bravado, but she admitted to being very concerned about the area between W. 6th and W. 9th where she parks. An admission akin to Holly having admitted to me being r**** about something. This is new, too, She's certainly not the only one over there concerned, and in cases like this perception is at least as important as reality. We've had this conversation before, when rocknroller was here. The safety situation downtown can be very different for women than men, and often is. Street criminals, by their nature, are not very brave people.
July 12, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, E Rocc said: My friend who works in EY normally exudes bravado, but she admitted to being very concerned about the area between W. 6th and W. 9th where she parks. An admission akin to Holly having admitted to me being r**** about something. This is new, too, She's certainly not the only one over there concerned, and in cases like this perception is at least as important as reality. We've had this conversation before, when rocknroller was here. The safety situation downtown can be very different for women than men, and often is. Street criminals, by their nature, are not very brave people. I don't disagree male vs female. I'm 6'4" 255 lbs and don't have as many people mess with me. However, a mass shooting on W 6th at 3 am when the bars are letting out and the young kids park on W 6th and block the streets is different than walking to your car from E&Y at 5 pm on a Friday afternoon.
July 12, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, Cleburger said: I don't disagree male vs female. I'm 6'4" 255 lbs and don't have as many people mess with me. However, a mass shooting on W 6th at 3 am when the bars are letting out and the young kids park on W 6th and block the streets is different than walking to your car from E&Y at 5 pm on a Friday afternoon. It is, I have plenty of experience with closing time issues. That said, I know that the EY building put in new security protocols recently due to daytime incidents. Edited July 12, 20231 yr by E Rocc
July 12, 20231 yr I guess Bibb needs to amend his comment about this being a state/concealed carry issue when the perp was concealing his gun in the trunk of his car. 🙄
July 12, 20231 yr 3 hours ago, seicer said: I guess Bibb needs to amend his comment about this being a state/concealed carry issue when the perp was concealing his gun in the trunk of his car. 🙄 He's a convicted felon as well.
July 13, 20231 yr Frankly I'm at the point that I don't care about being on the unconstituational side of this, but there is a reason why NYC was probably the safest large city in the country during "stop and frisk" Bibb is either naive or frankly just careless if he thinks Ohio's carry laws are the root cause here
July 13, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said: Frankly I'm at the point that I don't care about being on the unconstituational side of this, but there is a reason why NYC was probably the safest large city in the country during "stop and frisk" Bibb is either naive or frankly just careless if he thinks Ohio's carry laws are the root cause here I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Are you suggesting that the police should be searching more people to try to get guns out of their hands, or that its fine for everybody to be carrying guns, but that there is some "other" benefit to stop and frisk besides finding people carrying illegal firearms.
July 13, 20231 yr 8 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said: Frankly I'm at the point that I don't care about being on the unconstituational side of this, but there is a reason why NYC was probably the safest large city in the country during "stop and frisk" Bibb is either naive or frankly just careless if he thinks Ohio's carry laws are the root cause here Not sure how stop and frisk would have prevented this either unless we are talking about warrantless car searches without probable cause which is a massive Hell No. Bibb is going to blame the thing he has no control over.
July 13, 20231 yr 20 minutes ago, E Rocc said: Not sure how stop and frisk would have prevented this either unless we are talking about warrantless car searches without probable cause which is a massive Hell No. Bibb is going to blame the thing he has no control over. Yeahhhhhh stop and frisk ain't it. I'm with you there. Pretty clear 4th Amendment violation. Not sure he realizes he's also making the liberals entire argument re: eliminating gun violence for them. I.e. "Not really concerned about the constitution so long as it makes us safer"
July 13, 20231 yr 2 hours ago, YABO713 said: Yeahhhhhh stop and frisk ain't it. I'm with you there. Pretty clear 4th Amendment violation. Not sure he realizes he's also making the liberals entire argument re: eliminating gun violence for them. I.e. "Not really concerned about the constitution so long as it makes us safer" Bibb didn't suggest stop and frisk. AsDustinFoxWouldSay did. Bibb however lamented current gun culture and the cities inability to enact meaningful gun legislation because of state and federal rules, which is 100% correct.
July 13, 20231 yr 4 hours ago, Mendo said: Bibb didn't suggest stop and frisk. AsDustinFoxWouldSay did. Bibb however lamented current gun culture and the cities inability to enact meaningful gun legislation because of state and federal rules, which is 100% correct. "Meaningful" gun legislation would inevitably either be ineffectual, or worse would disarm the law abiding but not criminals. That's why the state passed these laws, to protect the rights of its citizens from posturing local politicians.
July 13, 20231 yr On 7/12/2023 at 9:22 AM, E Rocc said: It is, I have plenty of experience with closing time issues. That said, I know that the EY building put in new security protocols recently due to daytime incidents.
July 13, 20231 yr Really the biggest change out of this kind of buried in the details is the Mayor and others having a convo with the Juvi Courts. For too long they've been giving violent Juvis slaps on the wrist and no one holds the judges accountable because their decisions are sealed. There's all this protocol for arresting Juvis. You have to call down to the Juvi center to see if they'll even take them, and ninety percent of the time they say no. I've seen a handful of times Juvis who are arrested for Aggravated Robbery / GTMV, they have us take them to their parents instead. So now you have this culture of kids who don't think they can get into trouble for anything. Sorry for the errors I'm doing this on my phone while running around. Edited July 13, 20231 yr by KFM44107
July 13, 20231 yr 10 minutes ago, KFM44107 said: Really the biggest change out of this kind of buried in the details is the Mayor and others having a convo with the Juvi Courts. For too long they've been giving violent Juvis slaps on the wrist and no one holds the judges accountable because their decisions are sealed. There's all this protocol for arresting Juvis. You have to call down to the Juvi center to see if they'll even take them, and ninety percent of the time they say no. I've seen a handful of times Juvis who are arrested for Aggravated Robbery / GTMV. They have us take them to their parents instead. So now you have this culture of kids who don't think they can get into trouble for anything. I've been saying this for awhile, voters in general don't know which juvenile judges are tough and which are lenient, but the families and friends of the perpetrators sure do.
July 13, 20231 yr 15 minutes ago, KFM44107 said: So now you have this culture of kids who don't think they can get into trouble for anything. Agree 100%
July 13, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, E Rocc said: I think we now know why EY is getting the F*** out of the Flats. Soon, them and additional companies like Medical Mutual will be hauling out ot the suburbs if this city doesn't actually start getting serious about this BS
July 13, 20231 yr 2 hours ago, E Rocc said: "Meaningful" gun legislation would inevitably either be ineffectual, or worse would disarm the law abiding but not criminals. That's why the state passed these laws, to protect the rights of its citizens from posturing local politicians. If someone commits a violent crime with a firearm (or other deadly weapon) that person absolutely needs to be removed from society for a long long time. The current state of prisons are totally unacceptable and must be changed to protect those incarcerated, but first things first.
July 13, 20231 yr 27 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said: we'll see for how long when their employees start expierencing this on 9th Full stop because that's not happening. They'd have a hard time recruiting and retaining staff if they head off the burbs. Their talent acquisition folks know this.
July 13, 20231 yr Just now, Clefan98 said: Full stop because that's not happening. They'd have a hard time recruiting and retaining staff if they head off the burbs. Their talent acquisition folks know this. Lol but they won't have hard time recruiting talent in a downtown location where you're fellow employees are being assaulted, carjacked, and raped?
July 13, 20231 yr 55 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said: I think we now know why EY is getting the F*** out of the Flats. Soon, them and additional companies like Medical Mutual will be hauling out ot the suburbs if this city doesn't actually start getting serious about this BS Dude no one is moving to the suburbs...
July 13, 20231 yr 13 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said: Lol but they won't have hard time recruiting talent in a downtown location where you're fellow employees are being assaulted, carjacked, and raped? Those things have happened in Crocker Park's parking lot too, what's your point?
July 13, 20231 yr It's honestly baffling how much posters on this forum are willing to stick their heads in the sand when it comes to crime downtown and don't think it's probably the biggest deterrent to people moving, living, and now in the 21st century even working there. Every single case of a downtown leaving for the suburbs, the employees are ecstatic, and the most common reason you here is because of the lawless that not only occurs downtown, but also condoned. Every single time I bring up how I wish suburban jobs stayed downtown, the people who work at said suburban location always state they would switch jobs before even considering working downtown, and it always comes back to the crime levels. Car breakins, carjackings, panhandling. People don't want it.
July 13, 20231 yr 10 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said: It's honestly baffling how much posters on this forum are willing to stick their heads in the sand when it comes to crime downtown and don't think it's probably the biggest deterrent to people moving, living, and now in the 21st century even working there. Every single case of a downtown leaving for the suburbs, the employees are ecstatic, and the most common reason you here is because of the lawless that not only occurs downtown, but also condoned. Every single time I bring up how I wish suburban jobs stayed downtown, the people who work at said suburban location always state they would switch jobs before even considering working downtown, and it always comes back to the crime levels. Car breakins, carjackings, panhandling. People don't want it. Stay away from downtown if you’re so scared. There’s enough people whose viewpoints are the exact opposite of yours, and that’s a large enough number to keep downtown growing faster than any Ohio suburb for decades to come. Edited July 13, 20231 yr by Clefan98
July 13, 20231 yr 25 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said: It's honestly baffling how much posters on this forum are willing to stick their heads in the sand when it comes to crime downtown and don't think it's probably the biggest deterrent to people moving, living, and now in the 21st century even working there. Every single case of a downtown leaving for the suburbs, the employees are ecstatic, and the most common reason you here is because of the lawless that not only occurs downtown, but also condoned. Every single time I bring up how I wish suburban jobs stayed downtown, the people who work at said suburban location always state they would switch jobs before even considering working downtown, and it always comes back to the crime levels. Car breakins, carjackings, panhandling. People don't want it. Mass shootings are uncommon in downtown Cleveland, most downtowns frankly, and the panhandlers, as a whole, seem fewer in number compared to many other cities. At least in my experience. The recent attack was horrific but atypical at that scale. As for your comments about the glee workers have for suburban relocations, I'm sure there are wildly different reactions and no consensus. I do agree lawlessness is condoned and excused away. But that's not unique to Cleveland. America is pretty screwed up and ignorant when it comes to thug violence.
July 13, 20231 yr I’m sure this is a dumb question, but is there a specific reason why the city of Cleveland doesn’t raise their base pay for police officers above what the suburbs are paying? Maybe I’m missing something but it seems obvious that if you can get a better paying job that is less stress nearby, you’re going to go elsewhere?
July 14, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, coneflower said: I’m sure this is a dumb question, but is there a specific reason why the city of Cleveland doesn’t raise their base pay for police officers above what the suburbs are paying? Maybe I’m missing something but it seems obvious that if you can get a better paying job that is less stress nearby, you’re going to go elsewhere? Many CPD officers leave for the suburbs only to regret it. I'm sure @KFM44107can expound on this.
July 14, 20231 yr 58 minutes ago, Cleburger said: Many CPD officers leave for the suburbs only to regret it. I'm sure @KFM44107can expound on this. I don't know how you can regret moving to a job with a significant less amount of thugs and gangster punks who will even shoot at your squad car just for the hell of it, that has also provides more pay, more benefits, and less hours. Oh and a tax base that fawns over you with their "back the blue" hashtags any chance they get
July 14, 20231 yr 10 hours ago, Cleburger said: Many CPD officers leave for the suburbs only to regret it. I'm sure @KFM44107can expound on this. Latepy the guys leaving to the inner ring haven't been coming back. Still about fifty percent for the exurbs. A ton of guys have gone to the sheriff's and RTA and none of them have come back.
July 14, 20231 yr 16 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said: It's honestly baffling how much posters on this forum are willing to stick their heads in the sand when it comes to crime downtown and don't think it's probably the biggest deterrent to people moving, living, and now in the 21st century even working there. Every single case of a downtown leaving for the suburbs, the employees are ecstatic, and the most common reason you here is because of the lawless that not only occurs downtown, but also condoned. Every single time I bring up how I wish suburban jobs stayed downtown, the people who work at said suburban location always state they would switch jobs before even considering working downtown, and it always comes back to the crime levels. Car breakins, carjackings, panhandling. People don't want it. Cleveland's suburbs are stagnant... if people are moving anywhere it's Cleveland's near west neighborhoods. But making a point to you is like arguing with my Uncle Wally, who invariably ends every discussion with an thinly veiled discussion about how "some people" are emboldened to commit crimes because police officers are more hesitant to use lethal force. I grew up in the suburbs. Currently work full time downtown and live in Ohio City. I can say without question that Ohio City was markedly more dangerous when I was in high school there from 2005-2009 - as was downtown.
July 14, 20231 yr 15 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said: It's honestly baffling how much posters on this forum are willing to stick their heads in the sand when it comes to crime downtown and don't think it's probably the biggest deterrent to people moving, living, and now in the 21st century even working there. Every single case of a downtown leaving for the suburbs, the employees are ecstatic, and the most common reason you here is because of the lawless that not only occurs downtown, but also condoned. Every single time I bring up how I wish suburban jobs stayed downtown, the people who work at said suburban location always state they would switch jobs before even considering working downtown, and it always comes back to the crime levels. Car breakins, carjackings, panhandling. People don't want it. It is true that random acts of violence, amplified by the press, make suburbanites afraid of coming downtown. That and "traffic." But per capita downtown is as safe or safer than perceived "safe" suburban areas like Crocker Park. Plus we have scary black people. And homeless people are scary too. 14 hours ago, coneflower said: I’m sure this is a dumb question, but is there a specific reason why the city of Cleveland doesn’t raise their base pay for police officers above what the suburbs are paying? This would be a good start, but probably insufficient. KFM44107 would surely appreciate it, and would have some ideas about what needs to be done. I think we all want to see violent crime severely punished. But crime in general follows poverty -- Cleveland has that in spades and no number of police will be sufficient to prevent crime. More aid for the poor, mental health services, drug treatment programs, homeless housing programs, better transit from areas of poverty to areas with jobs, more job training, cheaper childcare and after-school care, more locals from the neighborhoods in the police force -- all are things that I think would help and yet are beyond the resources of Cleveland alone to tackle. (but god forbid we suburbanites actually help those people -- they should Just Get A Job -- and move to the suburbs where they'll be safe.)
July 14, 20231 yr On 7/11/2023 at 10:23 AM, Balkmusic said: Guns kill about 42,000 Americans per year (roughly 16,000 are murders) https://www.bradyunited.org/key-statistics Cars kill about 46,000 Americans per year https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/auto-accident/car-accident-deaths/#:~:text=More than 46%2C000 people die,12.4 deaths per 100%2C000 inhabitants. I'd be just as worried (or way more worried) about spending hours behind the wheel each day, commuting from suburbia, as I was about crime in the city. In the six years I've lived in central Toledo, there have been 5 murders within a block of where I live, all from guns. on average, i spend two hours a day in my car, every day. If I spent that much time with a gun every day, I would probably be dead. The purpose of a car is to transport; the purpose of a gun is to kill, and we regulate cars to make them less lethal. The two are not comparable.
July 14, 20231 yr The data is not looking good "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 14, 20231 yr 4 hours ago, Foraker said: It is true that random acts of violence, amplified by the press, make suburbanites afraid of coming downtown. That and "traffic." But per capita downtown is as safe or safer than perceived "safe" suburban areas like Crocker Park. Plus we have scary black people. And homeless people are scary too. This would be a good start, but probably insufficient. KFM44107 would surely appreciate it, and would have some ideas about what needs to be done. I think we all want to see violent crime severely punished. But crime in general follows poverty -- Cleveland has that in spades and no number of police will be sufficient to prevent crime. More aid for the poor, mental health services, drug treatment programs, homeless housing programs, better transit from areas of poverty to areas with jobs, more job training, cheaper childcare and after-school care, more locals from the neighborhoods in the police force -- all are things that I think would help and yet are beyond the resources of Cleveland alone to tackle. (but god forbid we suburbanites actually help those people -- they should Just Get A Job -- and move to the suburbs where they'll be safe.) I do agree with this to an extent. We do need more police because right now we are insufficient to even properly investigate violent crime. Mental health services, public transit, etc is extremely important. But there are legitimate people who need to be in jail and right now we aren't able to effectively make that happen. The court system isn't helping either for that matter. My job is super jaded because all I deal with is the five percent ruining it for the 95. But there are plenty of good people who deserve to live their lives in peace no matter what Income level.
July 14, 20231 yr 19 hours ago, coneflower said: I’m sure this is a dumb question, but is there a specific reason why the city of Cleveland doesn’t raise their base pay for police officers above what the suburbs are paying? Maybe I’m missing something but it seems obvious that if you can get a better paying job that is less stress nearby, you’re going to go elsewhere? The answer is simple yet difficult to solve; the city doesn’t have enough money. Raise police wages and then what do you cut? I’m not saying they should or shouldn’t do it, but that’s the reality in a city that already struggles to provide services.
July 14, 20231 yr Even when population losses are equated, Cleveland's homicide rate today is still far below the levels we saw throughout the 1970's and early 90's. The only things that have changed are bored Facebook Karen's with nothing better to do than crime talk, and the bombardment of 24/7 news, which sole purpose is to incite fear. In 1972, homicide in the city set a record with 333 murders. https://teachingcleveland.org/cleveland-in-the-1970s-mike-roberts/
July 14, 20231 yr 8 minutes ago, KFM44107 said: I do agree with this to an extent. We do need more police because right now we are insufficient to even properly investigate violent crime. Mental health services, public transit, etc is extremely important. But there are legitimate people who need to be in jail and right now we aren't able to effectively make that happen. The court system isn't helping either for that matter. My job is super jaded because all I deal with is the five percent ruining it for the 95. But there are plenty of good people who deserve to live their lives in peace no matter what Income level. In no way am I suggesting that we need services instead of more police or that some people don't need to be off the street. In fact, I think police ought to be well paid and be eligible for early retirement because we are asking them to do a difficult, s**tty, and sometimes dangerous job, and that is all the more reason that we need to make sure we fully staff the police force. Thank you for stepping up.
July 14, 20231 yr 23 hours ago, Clefan98 said: Full stop because that's not happening. They'd have a hard time recruiting and retaining staff if they head off the burbs. Their talent acquisition folks know this. That's why no one works for Progressive? Or Eaton? Or Ferro? Or......
July 14, 20231 yr 17 minutes ago, E Rocc said: That's why no one works for Progressive? Or Eaton? Or Ferro? Or...... 90% of Progressive and Eaton's staff work full-time work from home now. And yes, all three of those companies have a hard time attracting top talent. Follow along Progressive's bus tour for prospective employee's to see which part of the metro they show off (hint: the city) and which they do not (hint: their campus). Like I said, HR and talent acquisition know this but don't get to make real estate decisions. Why do you think SHW is building a new HQ in the heart of the city? Their folks are much more savvy and future thinking than the ladder. Edited July 14, 20231 yr by Clefan98
July 14, 20231 yr 19 minutes ago, E Rocc said: That's why no one works for Progressive? Or Eaton? Or Ferro? Or...... Yeah, about that.... CLEVELAND, Ohio - Local insurance giant Progressive Corp. has put five of its office buildings in the eastern suburbs of Cleveland up for sale as it responds to the new realities of the workplace. https://www.cleveland.com/community/2022/08/progressive-looking-to-sell-several-office-buildings-as-most-employees-remain-offsite.html BTW almost a year has passed and no offers have been made on any of these buildings, no surprise. Edited July 14, 20231 yr by Clefan98
July 14, 20231 yr 21 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said: Every single time I bring up how I wish suburban jobs stayed downtown, the people who work at said suburban location always state they would switch jobs before even considering working downtown, and it always comes back to the crime levels. lol not at all, it's always free parking. Always.
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