1 minute ago, JB said:

Is the helicopter supposed to be the one to get him then?

 

Ope suspect got out of the car at x address, he's still there, we're hovering until you arrive vs endanger a city w highway patrol driving streets they aren't familiar with.

 

Curious, what's your stance on surrounding municipalities chasing cars into Cleveland and through the city's streets? Justified? Ends worth the means if innocent people are killed? 

 

I live here, bike here, walk here, I'm not looking to get killed as an innocent bystander that happens to be caught up in a police chase. 

4 minutes ago, GISguy said:

 

Ope suspect got out of the car at x address, he's still there, we're hovering until you arrive vs endanger a city w highway patrol driving streets they aren't familiar with.

 

Curious, what's your stance on surrounding municipalities chasing cars into Cleveland and through the city's streets? Justified? Ends worth the means if innocent people are killed? 

 

I live here, bike here, walk here, I'm not looking to get killed as an innocent bystander that happens to be caught up in a police chase. 

So blame the people that are actually causing the city harm by driving like jackasses? Crime is out of control at the moment especially with stolen vehicles.

10 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Curious, what's your stance on surrounding municipalities chasing cars into Cleveland and through the city's streets? Justified? Ends worth the means if innocent people are killed? 

Justified, unfortunately, until a better method is found.  The number of fleeing vehicles would increase dramatically if they know they will not be pursued once they get into Cleveland.   And by the way, Innocent people have been injured and killed even when they are not being pursued.   I did ask a suburban police officer about using drones to pursue fleeing vehicles, but I was told they are not fast enough.

14 minutes ago, JB said:

So blame the people that are actually causing the city harm by driving like jackasses? Crime is out of control at the moment especially with stolen vehicles.

 

I don't think anyone is not blaming the person fleeing. The question is whether the OSHP made the situation better or worse. Given this chase ended with 2 people almost being hit (really looks like one may have been hit) after the driver was t-boned, its very plausible the car chase did not make this specific situation better. 

Just now, Luke_S said:

 

I don't think anyone is not blaming the person fleeing. The question is whether the OSHP made the situation better or worse. Given this chase ended with 2 people almost being hit (really looks like one may have been hit) after the driver was t-boned, its very plausible the car chase did not make this specific situation better. 

So you either let the guy go, or hope he doesn’t keep moving while the helicopter is calling police in.

5 minutes ago, JB said:

So you either let the guy go, or hope he doesn’t keep moving while the helicopter is calling police in.

 

This is a false dilemma 

I can sympathize with the safety concerns of police chases, but I just don't understand the people who oppose police chases think would happen once criminals understand the new paradigm. If you're operating a stolen vehicle, or just remove your license plate, there's no meaningful possibility of the police catching you if they won't chase you. Criminals are by and large still somewhat rational humans and adjust their behavior based on external factors. Research has shown people's behavior is based far more on the likelihood of getting caught than the severity of punishment if they do get caught. 

 

As an example, why not run a red light if you know there's no possibility of the police chasing you? (And no, they're not sending a helicopter after someone who ran a red light). 

 

You can't parse the chase / don't chase scenarios unless you are also seriously considering game theory in your analysis. What I mean by that is that it's entirely possible that each individual chase is not a great idea when viewed in isolation. But, when taken as a whole, it's very possible that a policy of chasing at least some time is preferable to the alternative, because it reduces the overall number of future situations where the chase / don't chase decision needs to be made. This is the concept I've never seen anyone who opposes police chases seriously deal with. 

It seems like drones would be vastly cheaper than helicopters for 95% of what they do.

20 minutes ago, Ethan said:

I can sympathize with the safety concerns of police chases, but I just don't understand the people who oppose police chases think would happen once criminals understand the new paradigm. If you're operating a stolen vehicle, or just remove your license plate, there's no meaningful possibility of the police catching you if they won't chase you. Criminals are by and large still somewhat rational humans and adjust their behavior based on external factors. Research has shown people's behavior is based far more on the likelihood of getting caught than the severity of punishment if they do get caught. 

 

As an example, why not run a red light if you know there's no possibility of the police chasing you? (And no, they're not sending a helicopter after someone who ran a red light). 

 

You can't parse the chase / don't chase scenarios unless you are also seriously considering game theory in your analysis. What I mean by that is that it's entirely possible that each individual chase is not a great idea when viewed in isolation. But, when taken as a whole, it's very possible that a policy of chasing at least some time is preferable to the alternative, because it reduces the overall number of future situations where the chase / don't chase decision needs to be made. This is the concept I've never seen anyone who opposes police chases seriously deal with. 

 

I think the opposition to police chased has been mischaracterized as "don't chase". Not calling out you specifically, you've moved the ball forward in this discussion. 

 

But this is what I mean when I say the chase / don't chase is a false dilemma. There are other means of pursuit. I think Cincinnati was testing a sticky tracker that can be shot onto cars to track them to their final destination rather than engaging in a high speed pursuit. Helicopters and drones, street cameras. All of these could be used to apprehend people who flee.

Edited September 1, 20231 yr by Luke_S

A sticky tracker will most likely lead them to an abandoned vehicle, the perpetrators will be long gone.

1 hour ago, Luke_S said:

 

This is a false dilemma 

Why’s that?

4 minutes ago, JB said:

Why’s that?

 

33 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

But this is what I mean when I say the chase / don't chase is a false dilemma. There are other means of pursuit. I think Cincinnati was testing a sticky tracker that can be shot onto cars to track them to their final destination rather than engaging in a high speed pursuit. Helicopters and drones, street cameras. All of these could be used to apprehend people who flee.

 

51 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

 

 

What about when you get called off a pursuit and the kids go to a gas station five minutes later and shoot a guy in the stomach and take their car and now have two stolen cars? Where's the false dilemna in that? You going to go tell that guy about all the cool tech we have to get that car safely later while you call over your radio to EMS for him? 

 

I just gave you a real life scenario of something that happened on a random weekday night to me back when I was on patrol. Your what ifs go both ways.

 

All you're doing is deciding how much proximate cause is needed to feel comfortable with blaming the criminal.  

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, KFM44107 said:

To break this down. The bad neighborhoods get worse and the good neighborhoods get nicer. That's the Cleveland we live in. 

Would hardly call the good neighborhoods nicer. Downtown has become a crime cesspool. Alot of people have moved out of downtown because of the carjackings and shootings by these teens. I know a few downtowners on twitter who actively discouraged people moving downtown anymore.

2 hours ago, GISguy said:

 

Ope suspect got out of the car at x address, he's still there, we're hovering until you arrive vs endanger a city w highway patrol driving streets they aren't familiar with.

 

Curious, what's your stance on surrounding municipalities chasing cars into Cleveland and through the city's streets? Justified? Ends worth the means if innocent people are killed? 

 

I live here, bike here, walk here, I'm not looking to get killed as an innocent bystander that happens to be caught up in a police chase. 

So what's the answer? Let these thugs go, and give them another opportunity to worsen our quality of life with threats of violence? Stick a gun in your face for your bike and then what? Hope he doesn't do it again?

1 hour ago, LibertyBlvd said:

A sticky tracker will most likely lead them to an abandoned vehicle, the perpetrators will be long gone.

Exactly. They see there car is tracked, get out, carjack another innocent bystander and the cycle continues. 

1 minute ago, Luke_S said:

 

I think the opposition to police chased has been mischaracterized as "don't chase". Not calling out you specifically, you've moved the ball forward in this discussion. 

 

But this is what I mean when I say the chase / don't chase is a false dilemma. There are other means of pursuit. I think Cincinnati was testing a sticky tracker that can be shot onto cars to track them to their final destination rather than engaging in a high speed pursuit. Helicopters and drones, street cameras. All of these could be used to apprehend people who flee.

I'm all for new technology if it works. The important thing is that current and potential criminals view it as probable that they will get caught. That's what discourages crime long term. Other than helicopters though, and to some extent street cameras, I'm not aware of any of those technologies being successfully used at scale. As someone mentioned earlier, most drones aren't fast enough, nor do they tend to have long enough battery lives.

 

Tracking devices are interesting, and should be explored, but like any technology they can be gamed (changing cars, removing device, etc). And if your final objective is to apprehend the criminal, not just the vehicle, you will still need to have an officer in the area when the offender decides to exit the vehicle. The best way to ensure that happens is to follow the alleged criminal at a safe distance. 

 

And as KFM44107 correctly points out, what ifs always go both ways. Personally I think the best way forward is to empower officers with the best possible knowledge and allow them to make the decision that is most appropriate for the situation. There's always tradeoffs, and any black and white policy will be gamed, but I think that's the best option. 

5 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Would hardly call the good neighborhoods nicer. Downtown has become a crime cesspool. Alot of people have moved out of downtown because of the carjackings and shootings by these teens. I know a few downtowners on twitter who actively discouraged people moving downtown anymore.

The good neighborhoods are definitely nicer. More housing is being built in this city than at anytime in probably both our lives. Unless you were born in like the 50s. 

 

I have seen absolutely no change in downtown activity since the shootings and car jacking and I work downtown, and work in policing so I'm more privy to that kind of stuff than pretty much anyone on this forum. I get to look at hot maps and old data on a daily basis. 

 

The warehouse district literally had one bad weekend after that shooting and now it's just as busy as ever. 

 

All you need to do is look at a violent crime map of Tremont or Ohio city or Downtown from the 90s to now and you can see the difference for yourself, it's two different worlds. 

7 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Would hardly call the good neighborhoods nicer. Downtown has become a crime cesspool. Alot of people have moved out of downtown because of the carjackings and shootings by these teens. I know a few downtowners on twitter who actively discouraged people moving downtown anymore.

Like how I get downvoted. Yet my girlfriend her self is moving out downtown to Avon, literally every one she knows at work tell her they can't be more happy for her because of how bad it is gotten. She can't even remember the last time she saw a cop car downtown. 

2 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

The good neighborhoods are definitely nicer. More housing is being built in this city than at anytime in probably both our lives. Unless you were born in like the 50s. 

 

I have seen absolutely no change in downtown activity since the shootings and car jacking and I work downtown, and work in policing so I'm more privy to that kind of stuff than pretty much anyone on this forum. I get to look at hot maps and old data on a daily basis. 

 

The warehouse district literally had one bad weekend after that shooting and now it's just as busy as ever. 

 

All you need to do is look at a violent crime map of Tremont or Ohio city or Downtown from the 90s to now and you can see the difference for yourself, it's two different worlds. 

Perception is what rules here in NEO. 

2 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Like how I get downvoted. Yet my girlfriend her self is moving out downtown to Avon, literally every one she knows at work tell her they can't be more happy for her because of how bad it is gotten. She can't even remember the last time she saw a cop car downtown. 

You get down voted because you are relentlessly negative and abrasive.  Everytime I see a post is by you, I have to brace myself a little for what will surely be an unpleasant screed.

2 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

She can't even remember the last time she saw a cop car downtown. 

 

You always say things to hear yourself talk. There's literally 1-3 zone cars on public square and the surrounding area every day. Lol she never sees cop cars at the justice center? There's sheriff cars at the county building throughout the day. Good riddance. Go make UrbanAvon or something. 

5 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Like how I get downvoted. Yet my girlfriend her self is moving out downtown to Avon, literally every one she knows at work tell her they can't be more happy for her because of how bad it is gotten. She can't even remember the last time she saw a cop car downtown. 

Bye Felicia Fox!  

11 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

The good neighborhoods are definitely nicer. More housing is being built in this city than at anytime in probably both our lives. Unless you were born in like the 50s. 

 

I have seen absolutely no change in downtown activity since the shootings and car jacking and I work downtown, and work in policing so I'm more privy to that kind of stuff than pretty much anyone on this forum. I get to look at hot maps and old data on a daily basis. 

 

The warehouse district literally had one bad weekend after that shooting and now it's just as busy as ever. 

 

All you need to do is look at a violent crime map of Tremont or Ohio city or Downtown from the 90s to now and you can see the difference for yourself, it's two different worlds. 

 

I really appreciate your insights into things and the inside baseball of CPD. I'll read the daily items of interest and see the reports that are public but I know that only tells you so much.

 

I know I'm guilty of playing armchair this or that (and to some extent we all are) and it's easy to pass judgement after the fact so hearing rational takes and real life examples really helps put it in perspective. People like councilman Pol really add nothing to things when compared to what you've provided in this thread time and time again. 

 

Really hope you're able to make it to one of the meetups one of these days. 

Edited September 1, 20231 yr by GISguy

6 minutes ago, GISguy said:

 

I really appreciate your insights into things and the inside baseball of CPD. I'll read the daily items of interest and see the reports that are public but I know that only tells you so much.

 

I know I'm guilty of playing armchair this or that (and to some extent we all are) and it's easy to pass judgement after the fact so hearing rational takes and real life examples really helps put it in perspective. People like councilman Pol really add nothing to things when compared to what you've provided in this thread time and time again. 

 

Really hope you're able to make it to one of the meetups one of these days. 

Thanks. I obviously have to be careful with what I say on here and don't respond to alot of stuff purposely. 

 

I the past I couldn't make meetups because I worked nights. The last meetup I had a family affair, but I think I should be at this upcoming Thursday as I'm off with no plans. 

1 hour ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Perception is what rules here in NEO. 

 

guy with the data says you're full of s**t and your argument is 'I perceive it to be true, so it is'

 

Find me one shred of evidence that downtown is losing population

Edited September 1, 20231 yr by Whipjacka

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

 

I really appreciate your insights into things and the inside baseball of CPD. I'll read the daily items of interest and see the reports that are public but I know that only tells you so much.

 

I know I'm guilty of playing armchair this or that (and to some extent we all are) and it's easy to pass judgement after the fact so hearing rational takes and real life examples really helps put it in perspective. People like councilman Pol really add nothing to things when compared to what you've provided in this thread time and time again. 

 

Really hope you're able to make it to one of the meetups one of these days. 

 

Yep, things often sound easy to someone who doesn't have to do it.    I was hoping we'd eventually get a CPD officer on here.  Sometimes I felt like I was the closest thing due to having to make people do things they didn't wish to, but I only had to get them out the door.

 

Disagree to a point about Polensek, though.  He's pretty good about crime issues in his ward, at least north of 90.   Better than others seem, anyway.

2 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Yep, things often sound easy to someone who doesn't have to do it.    I was hoping we'd eventually get a CPD officer on here.  Sometimes I felt like I was the closest thing due to having to make people do things they didn't wish to, but I only had to get them out the door.

 

Disagree to a point about Polensek, though.  He's pretty good about crime issues in his ward, at least north of 90.   Better than others seem, anyway.

Polensek seems like the only one on the East side that even gives a damn about safety 

 

Unfortunately, suburbs are paying a lot more and poaching many officers. Plus less BS to deal with.

18 minutes ago, JB said:

Unfortunately, suburbs are paying a lot more and poaching many officers. Plus less BS to deal with.

I guess the simple answer is lack of funds, but why won't Cleveland raise salaries, given the situation you mention? Pay a slight premium to retain officers and attract new ones. 

 

Seems like they could do that at least for new officers, but perhaps the budget is not there.

2 hours ago, Mov2Ohio said:

I guess the simple answer is lack of funds, but why won't Cleveland raise salaries, given the situation you mention? Pay a slight premium to retain officers and attract new ones. 

 

Seems like they could do that at least for new officers, but perhaps the budget is not there.

 

I won't speak for @KFM44107and I haven't spoken to other CPD officers lately, but the suburban guys I know say the consent degree is a big negative vis a vis working for CPD.   The feeling is that people with no responsibility for, or even interest in, their success are making decisions.

8 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

I won't speak for @KFM44107and I haven't spoken to other CPD officers lately, but the suburban guys I know say the consent degree is a big negative vis a vis working for CPD.   The feeling is that people with no responsibility for, or even interest in, their success are making decisions.

From people I’ve talked to, the DOJ aren’t helping either. Like I said as well, those suburb guys are making $100k+ without working the crazy amount of OT that the Cleveland officers have to work.

39 minutes ago, JB said:

From people I’ve talked to, the DOJ aren’t helping either. Like I said as well, those suburb guys are making $100k+ without working the crazy amount of OT that the Cleveland officers have to work.

Which is also part of the reason that police departments are leaving some suburbs near insolvency. But that's for another thread. 

5 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

Which is also part of the reason that police departments are leaving some suburbs near insolvency. But that's for another thread. 

Agreed, it’s way too much.

If the problem really is just economic (and I'm not convinced it is), then the solution is simple. More money. Can we prioritize safety (and thus police offers) more in city budgets?

 

Looking into it, Public safety is already 53% of the general fund, which is a little less than half of the overall expenditures. Policing makes up the lion's share of the the money allocated to public safety, but it's far from all of it. Taken all into account, police were 13.7% of the total expenditures from last year. So could we direct more money to the police? Almost certainly, but what we should cut to do that is the much harder question. 

 

Regardless, it's hard for me to imagine the investment not paying off. Safety is one of the main reason people are fleeing the East side in droves. Safety (and, more importantly, the perception of safety) combined with school performance are the main things holding Cleveland back. Spending the money and political capital to make people think the streets are safe would go a long way, and it would basically open up large swaths of land for redevelopment. 

 

 

Community Police Commission asks residents for input on 18-month plan

by Stephanie Casanova

 

"Cleveland residents have until the end of this week to provide feedback on the Community Police Commission plan outlining the work the group will focus on for the next 18 months. 

 

...

 

The commission has outlined projects it wants to focus on and has created working groups for some of the projects.

 

Community members can join a working group to share their thoughts. The deadline to fill out a form providing feedback on the plan is this Friday, Sept. 8."

 

Community Police Commission 18-Month Work Plan Feedback Form

 

https://signalcleveland.org/community-police-commission-asks-for-resident-input/

Thinking about this conversation, I was struck by a comment from Janen Ganesh in yesterday's FT.

 

"The economic case for cities - the benefits of agglomeration and so on - is so often aired that it crowds out the more high-minded one. So here goes.

 

The fact that large cities aren't wall-to-wall chaos is, before anything else, a moral achievement. It doesn't depend on coercion - no police force can bring [millions] of people into line - but on trust and goodwill, or, at the absolute minimum, enlightened self-interest."  

 

I continue to think crime numbers are less changed over generations than we think.  It's just the lurid stuff gets much more coverage and recordation than it used to.  The non-criminals and the police need to develop more confidence in each other. It will take work and won't eliminate crime, but it will make people feel safer. 

 

 

13 hours ago, Dougal said:

Thinking about this conversation, I was struck by a comment from Janen Ganesh in yesterday's FT.

 

"The economic case for cities - the benefits of agglomeration and so on - is so often aired that it crowds out the more high-minded one. So here goes.

 

The fact that large cities aren't wall-to-wall chaos is, before anything else, a moral achievement. It doesn't depend on coercion - no police force can bring [millions] of people into line - but on trust and goodwill, or, at the absolute minimum, enlightened self-interest."  

 

I continue to think crime numbers are less changed over generations than we think.  It's just the lurid stuff gets much more coverage and recordation than it used to.  The non-criminals and the police need to develop more confidence in each other. It will take work and won't eliminate crime, but it will make people feel safer. 

 

 

 

I would call the initial part pollyannish, to say the least.    Historical density was largely a function of economic concentration, which was a function of transportation costs.   As transportation became cheaper, people had options.  Some chose dense living, some did not.

 

The second part I would agree with.   The 24 hour news cycle favors the unusual and must seek out the unusual.   

On 9/6/2023 at 8:24 AM, JB said:

Agreed, it’s way too much.

 

Let's be clear: are we saying the people who risk their lives to preserve order are overpaid?

^That’s exactly what I (won’t speak for others) am saying. If you look at our constant non-stop increases to police spend and are okay with that, great for you. Please just don’t try to complain or care about any other spending. There are some great officers on the force, full stop. But there are some god awful ones as well. Overall the profession has unlimited resources which has been shown over the past couple years.

47 minutes ago, Clefan14 said:

^That’s exactly what I (won’t speak for others) am saying. If you look at our constant non-stop increases to police spend and are okay with that, great for you. Please just don’t try to complain or care about any other spending. There are some great officers on the force, full stop. But there are some god awful ones as well. Overall the profession has unlimited resources which has been shown over the past couple years.

 

They make about the same as firemen.    Should firemen make considerably more, or would you cut them both?

7 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Let's be clear: are we saying the people who risk their lives to preserve order are overpaid?

Suburb cops? Absolutely. I know a few as well.

Doing a quick internet search police officers seem to earn roughly as much as teachers. (Low $60k a year depending on which source you trust). Everyone seems to agree teachers are underpaid, and cops don't get nearly as many days off, so I would think they are underpaid as well. 

29 minutes ago, Ethan said:

Doing a quick internet search police officers seem to earn roughly as much as teachers. (Low $60k a year depending on which source you trust). Everyone seems to agree teachers are underpaid, and cops don't get nearly as many days off, so I would think they are underpaid as well. 

Don’t let E Rocc twist what at least I’m saying. I’m the one that initially said that Cleveland police are underpaid and make significantly less than their suburb counterparts. Suburb cops (which make more than $100k) I think are absolutely overpaid. I’m absolutely shocked that the other poster tried creating a narrative in here though….

1 hour ago, JB said:

Don’t let E Rocc twist what at least I’m saying. I’m the one that initially said that Cleveland police are underpaid and make significantly less than their suburb counterparts. Suburb cops (which make more than $100k) I think are absolutely overpaid. I’m absolutely shocked that the other poster tried creating a narrative in here though….

Understood, I wasn't necessarily replying to you, but you make a good point. It is a bit ridiculous that suburban police who almost certainly have an easier go off things (for the most part, on average) get paid more than City of Cleveland police. In a fair world, the reverse would be true. 

 

I doubt Cleveland can do it, but I think it would be wise for the City of Cleveland to pay police better than the suburbs, or at least on par. It's not great to create an environment where officers bailing for suburbs is a rational decision. They're almost certainly going to have an easier job there (and likely be better appreciated for it) so they should probably be paid better to work for the city. 

^ Totally agree.

Wages are being addressed - Bibb raised cadet salaries by 50% last month and overall officer compensation by 11% last year

 

https://www.axios.com/local/cleveland/2023/08/23/bibb-cleveland-police-cadets-incentives#

 

Hopefully that will begin to produce results. 

12 hours ago, JB said:

Don’t let E Rocc twist what at least I’m saying. I’m the one that initially said that Cleveland police are underpaid and make significantly less than their suburb counterparts. Suburb cops (which make more than $100k) I think are absolutely overpaid. I’m absolutely shocked that the other poster tried creating a narrative in here though….

 

It's not twisting it's following through.    If employees at one company make significantly less than another for doing the same thing, who should be the one adjusting?

 

(This is why I was against SB2 in 2011, unlike most Republicans).

17 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

It's not twisting it's following through.    If employees at one company make significantly less than another for doing the same thing, who should be the one adjusting?

 

(This is why I was against SB2 in 2011, unlike most Republicans).

Now you’re moving goal posts. I literally said they need to raise their wages to help compete with suburbs. But I also can’t think suburb cops are overpaid?