22 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

The evidence is overwhelming that mixed-income housing is FAR better for public health and safety, as well as improving upward economic mobility for the poor. Several of the concepts proposed in this thread could be implemented as mixed-income housing, which would be better for everyone. 

 

This. When I lived in NYC, the only places that most normies could afford to rent were always adjacent to housing projects, and it was beneficial to everyone in the neighborhood. When low income renters are not on an island separate from everyone else, and actually feel like a part of the surrounding neighborhood then they are stewards to the best of their ability. It also keeps so many more sections of an unaffordable city available to more average earners. Living in East Harlem was a perfect example of this and the everyday interaction between the ultra wealthy doctors who wanted to live within walking distance of Mt. Sinai, and the low income renters in the surrounding housing projects meant that everyone had greater access to necessary amenities and curated a greater amount of cooperation between groups that have historically been kept separate from one another. Anecdotal for sure, but I spent so much time hanging with people who lived in the projects a block over from my apartment and when they don’t feel completely overlooked and isolated from the city they live in, they are wonderful neighbors. Housing projects in Cleveland are just kept separate from their surrounding neighborhood which creates a feeling of desperation and isolation. Creating more mixed income neighborhoods in the city would go a long way in improving the lives of all of its residents. 

On 12/11/2024 at 11:09 AM, Cleburger said:

I'm sure by design as it was constructed about the same time as the Shoreway.  

 

 

I'd like to see CMHA raise all the low rise buildings and keep the tower.  Then construct several new high rises around it for low/middle income familes, freeing up land for more park and retail uses.  

 

Good idea and we can repurpose the design drawings from Bridgeworks to save money- plus it will blend with the neighborhood. Lakeview Bridgeworks Annex. Only half kidding as it could work.

On 12/11/2024 at 1:08 PM, E Rocc said:

 

I'll go ahead and say the quiet part out loud.

 

The problem with "mixed income" housing is it doesn't stay that way because the people who can opt out do so.  There's things that middle or upper income people consider important quality of life issues that lower income people are indifferent to.  Or sometimes even hostile.

 

This is opinion masquerading as fact.

On 12/10/2024 at 6:19 PM, PlanCleveland said:

Ya I don't think it's going to slow down the neighborhood. I mean, Short North and OTR have way more crime than Ohio City does and they haven't slowed down. 

Is this per capita? I'd believe that OTR has higher crime rates but Short North feels safer than Ohio City to me. 

 

6 hours ago, Boaty McBoatface said:

Living in East Harlem was a perfect example of this and the everyday interaction between the ultra wealthy doctors who wanted to live within walking distance of Mt. Sinai, and the low income renters in the surrounding housing projects meant that everyone had greater access to necessary amenities and curated a greater amount of cooperation between groups that have historically been kept separate from one another.

My anecdotal experience living in these types of areas is these groups did not interact at all, specifically in the Uptown and West Town areas of Chicago. These are also areas where real estate pressures put higher-income residences near subsidized low-income housing. 

 

Well sure. But Chicago and New York are incredibly different places with different histories of interaction. Also, Chicago is still a midwestern city engulfed by suburban development far more than NYC. It’s not a perfect solution by any means, but people in New York are just way better at interacting with other people just by sheer necessity of space allocation haha. I don’t know that the model will work everywhere, as New York is the most un-American city in the country, but there is definitely a place for mixed income in every city neighborhood and it will only benefit everyone if done correctly. Do I trust that things like this will be done correctly? Probably not. But it’s not as dire as opponents would have you believe. Clearly this is just based on my own limited experience, but living near people of a different economic bracket just helped change my perspective a bit. 

On 12/10/2024 at 6:19 PM, PlanCleveland said:

Ya I don't think it's going to slow down the neighborhood. I mean, Short North and OTR have way more crime than Ohio City does and they haven't slowed down. I walk and bike through this area often and have never had any issues. 

 

I meant just The Quarter potentially being hurt, as 3? of the shootings have happened on the sidewalks along their properties. They're currently one of the highest price points in the Hingetown area. And if potential renters do a quick Google search on the address, they will likely see multiple news stories on recent shootings and homicides. 

As someone who left the neighborhood more or less for this exact issue, I think you're right, with a caveat... 

 

We never would have left if we didn't have a daughter... but then two shootings in broad daylight within about 40 days of each other changed our calculus, as both were on the path we walk our daughter and dog down daily. 

 

I tend to agree, the "CRIME IS EVERYWHERE PEOPLE ARE FLEEING" narrative is crazy and untrue... but I am one of now 6 former Ohio City residents in our circle of friends who have relocated to the suburbs because we decided we didn't want to take a chance of that kind of thing happening while we're on a family bike ride. 

 

Young professionals and empty nesters won't be bothered by it much, we weren't, and the area will continue to grow. But it certainly changes the calculus of people considering raising a family in OHC. We had no intentions of moving, ever. But when you view life through the lens of a parent, it made us ask questions from a different perspective. 

 

I still take Kennedy to the WSM every Saturday morning, though 😃

Reality. Gets in the way of rose colored glasses. I love my city and cities in general but even l have to admit crime and what seems to be often overwhelming social issues can have a major impact. Watching video of the downtown Cleveland riot a few years ago devastated me. And when l see this forum with a new comment my first thought is "Do l want to see what happened?"

 

I know l sometimes live in a dream world where all people are good and there is social harmony and then sh*t happens. It can be very discouraging.

17 minutes ago, cadmen said:

Reality. Gets in the way of rose colored glasses. I love my city and cities in general but even l have to admit crime and what seems to be often overwhelming social issues can have a major impact. Watching video of the downtown Cleveland riot a few years ago devastated me. And when l see this forum with a new comment my first thought is "Do l want to see what happened?"

 

I know l sometimes live in a dream world where all people are good and there is social harmony and then sh*t happens. It can be very discouraging.

Frankly, one of the most frustrating things for me was my friends/neighbors refusal to acknowledge it without adding a qualifying dissertation about the legacy impacts of systemic oppression. 

 

Every time we would talk about how it would be nice to have an increased police presence, it was met with a response that focused solely on the follies of policing in the past. I felt as if there wasn't a middle ground to be had where we say "yes, police have historically had issues in its interactions with persons of color" and "yes, police have a very difficult job and we should work to support efforts to give them resources for better policing." 

 

My wife once had a friend say "I assume Tom is voting for Trump" - and when she asked why she thought that, she said "Oh I just assumed because he talks about how we need more police officers." 

8 minutes ago, cadmen said:

Reality. Gets in the way of rose colored glasses. I love my city and cities in general but even l have to admit crime and what seems to be often overwhelming social issues can have a major impact. Watching video of the downtown Cleveland riot a few years ago devastated me. And when l see this forum with a new comment my first thought is "Do l want to see what happened?"

 

I know l sometimes live in a dream world where all people are good and there is social harmony and then sh*t happens. It can be very discouraging.

 

I know it's not the point of the current discussion, but the "riot" was a peaceful march before teargas was released by CPD, that's what really set people off and caused people to fan out. 

 

Before: 

 

 

I took a roadtrip that summer and Cleveland made out pretty well, comparatively. 

How is our near Westside going to continue it's three decades long process of gentrification with those project that were built almost a century ago so close by?  All those fancy houses and apartments won't continue to be full of affluent people if conditions continue to be what they were when they moved in!

20 minutes ago, GISguy said:

 

I know it's not the point of the current discussion, but the "riot" was a peaceful march before teargas was released by CPD, that's what really set people off and caused people to fan out. 

 

Before: 

 

 

I took a roadtrip that summer and Cleveland made out pretty well, comparatively. 

 

Sure. I know how it started and how it ended. The majority were there for the right reasons and just as surely they were followed by those who ONLY wanted to stir it up. 

 

Same as it everwas.

16 minutes ago, X said:

How is our near Westside going to continue it's three decades long process of gentrification with those project that were built almost a century ago so close by?  All those fancy houses and apartments won't continue to be full of affluent people if conditions continue to be what they were when they moved in!

I'm not sure if this is satire or not. 

 

The point is - we probably shouldn't get rid of Lakeside. It should be renovated in phases, introducing mixed income units, inducing new demographics to the area while maintaining the housing for people that need it. It worked wonders in Tremont. I remember going to church with my grandparents and getting off 490 to some less-than-ideal projects. That exit is now vibrant. 

 

1 minute ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Is there a way to see numbers by precinct? 

 

From my understanding, police have had incredible success disrupting crime in the east-side precincts, but that's not necessarily reflected city wide. 

 

Nonetheless, incredible progress

Some families are moving out, while others are moving in. Since everyone tends to treat their anecdotal evidence as the truth, let me share mine:

The street I live on has seen an increase in families recently. In fact, the last house sold on our block was purchased by an affluent family with two high school-aged kids.

4 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

Some families are moving out, while others are moving in. Since everyone tends to treat their anecdotal evidence as the truth, let me share mine:

The street I live on has seen an increase in families recently. In fact, the last house sold on our block was purchased by an affluent family with two high school-aged kids.

 

This is definitely true. While we moved, along with some of our friends with kids, it's absolutely the truth that there are more families in OHC than there were when we moved there in 2018. 

 

And my wife and I have talked about potentially moving back when our kid(s) are 16+

6 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

Is there a way to see numbers by precinct? 

 

From my understanding, police have had incredible success disrupting crime in the east-side precincts, but that's not necessarily reflected city wide. 

 

Nonetheless, incredible progress

 

Poke around w/this if you have the time: https://data.clevelandohio.gov/apps/f1fa870ebbcc47beabdc4de4357d3c8b/explore

 

5 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

And my wife and I have talked about potentially moving back when our kid(s) are 16+

 

That's awesome!

2 hours ago, Clefan98 said:

Some families are moving out, while others are moving in. Since everyone tends to treat their anecdotal evidence as the truth, let me share mine:

The street I live on has seen an increase in families recently. In fact, the last house sold on our block was purchased by an affluent family with two high school-aged kids.

 

Makes sense if they are going to private high schools such as Iggy or Mags.   

 

Thing is, younger people living in the city yet heading out to the burbs before their kids are old enough for school is nothing new.   It goes back at least to when the Flats was a big deal.   It's way more common than the other way around.

 

My former neighbor is an attorney whose politics align way more with yours than mine but she bailed to Brecksville when her son was 6 or so.

 

It's always been a somewhat sore subject here, but it is what it is.

3 hours ago, YABO713 said:

Is there a way to see numbers by precinct? 

 

From my understanding, police have had incredible success disrupting crime in the east-side precincts, but that's not necessarily reflected city wide. 

 

Nonetheless, incredible progress

 

I asked about precinct numbers on the OP.  Or at least by district.

 

 

2 hours ago, GISguy said:

 

Poke around w/this if you have the time: https://data.clevelandohio.gov/apps/f1fa870ebbcc47beabdc4de4357d3c8b/explore

 

 

July 18, 2024

Date Updated

 

(Edit: That's the structure not the data.....)

Edited December 13, 2024Dec 13 by E Rocc

5 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

July 18, 2024

Date Updated

 

(Edit: That's the structure not the data.....)

 

Yep, and as an aside, you'll see this issue with a lot of Esri Open Data sites (the county's included). The data might be updated in the background, but it doesn't necessarily update the date in the info window. We try and notate when things are updated, Cleveland does a really good job with this, too.

45 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Makes sense if they are going to private high schools such as Iggy or Mags.   

 

Thing is, younger people living in the city yet heading out to the burbs before their kids are old enough for school is nothing new.   It goes back at least to when the Flats was a big deal.   It's way more common than the other way around.

 

My former neighbor is an attorney whose politics align way more with yours than mine but she bailed to Brecksville when her son was 6 or so.

 

It's always been a somewhat sore subject here, but it is what it is.

 

Totally agree with you about private schools. Some of the smartest and wealthiest people I know in the area are buying tax-abated homes. If you run the numbers, the savings over 15 years can make even top private schools a lot more affordable.

 

Funny you mentioned Brecksville—I was going to bring it up since we’ve got friends there too. One thing I’ve noticed is that there seem to be way more kids playing outside or in strollers around our neighborhood compared to when we visit Brecksville. Just an observation, but it’s been on my mind lately.

 

Also, the recent population trends don’t really back up the idea that families are bailing like they used to. With household sizes shrinking, there’s less demand for suburban school districts. And if families were leaving as much as some claim, you’d think suburban populations would be increasing, not declining.

 

Brecksville population

2010: 13,656

2020: 13,635

 

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2024Dec 13 by Clefan98

57 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Makes sense if they are going to private high schools such as Iggy or Mags.   

 

Thing is, younger people living in the city yet heading out to the burbs before their kids are old enough for school is nothing new.   It goes back at least to when the Flats was a big deal.   It's way more common than the other way around.

 

My former neighbor is an attorney whose politics align way more with yours than mine but she bailed to Brecksville when her son was 6 or so.

 

It's always been a somewhat sore subject here, but it is what it is.

 

My ex wife and I did it when our kids were preschool age.  There comes a point when you realize that all kids are good, but there are lots of uncaring, and downright awful parents out there in the world.    Unfortunately there tends to be more of them lumped together in the city for socioeconomic reasons.   But we even experienced the same in eastern Lakewood around the turn of the century.... 

33 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Totally agree with you about private schools. Some of the smartest and wealthiest people I know in the area are buying tax-abated homes. If you run the numbers, the savings over 15 years can make even top private schools a lot more affordable.

 

Funny you mentioned Brecksville—I was going to bring it up since we’ve got friends there too. One thing I’ve noticed is that there seem to be way more kids playing outside or in strollers around our neighborhood compared to when we visit Brecksville. Just an observation, but it’s been on my mind lately.

 

Also, the recent population trends don’t really back up the idea that families are bailing like they used to. With household sizes shrinking, there’s less demand for suburban school districts. And if families were leaving as much as some claim, you’d think suburban populations would be increasing, not declining.

 

Brecksville population

2010: 13,656

2020: 13,635

 

 

 

 

As evidence of more families moving into the city CMSD is improving. Out of the 3 Cs, Cleveland is the only 3 star district as of 2024 (Columbus is 2 and Cinci is 2.5 stars). In terms of K-8 there are multiple 4+ star schools within a mile of the near west side. On top of that the Cleveland Scholarship is a non income based grant from the state that pays for the majority of private school tuition for residents of the city of Cleveland if they want to go that route. Plenty of schooling options for parents who choose to live in the city.

 

I too notice way more kids in my neighborhood in Cleveland than in the suburbs I go to.  Could just be the density but a great sign for the city none the less.

Edited December 13, 2024Dec 13 by TDi

6 hours ago, YABO713 said:

I'm not sure if this is satire or not. 

 

The point is - we probably shouldn't get rid of Lakeside. It should be renovated in phases, introducing mixed income units, inducing new demographics to the area while maintaining the housing for people that need it. It worked wonders in Tremont. I remember going to church with my grandparents and getting off 490 to some less-than-ideal projects. That exit is now vibrant. 

 

It was satire of the people who are foretelling doom for Ohio City based on conditions that preceded, and have existed, throughout it's quite mature renaissance.

Hate Crime at Sherwin Williams Tower.  As construction continues wrapping up at the 36-story office building at Sherwin-Williams Co.’s new headquarters, police have launched an investigation into a swastika scratched onto an elevator at the structure.

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/cleveland-police-investigate-hate-crime-sherwin-williams-hq-tower

On 12/13/2024 at 3:48 PM, Clefan98 said:

 

Totally agree with you about private schools. Some of the smartest and wealthiest people I know in the area are buying tax-abated homes. If you run the numbers, the savings over 15 years can make even top private schools a lot more affordable.

 

Funny you mentioned Brecksville—I was going to bring it up since we’ve got friends there too. One thing I’ve noticed is that there seem to be way more kids playing outside or in strollers around our neighborhood compared to when we visit Brecksville. Just an observation, but it’s been on my mind lately.

 

Also, the recent population trends don’t really back up the idea that families are bailing like they used to. With household sizes shrinking, there’s less demand for suburban school districts. And if families were leaving as much as some claim, you’d think suburban populations would be increasing, not declining.

 

Brecksville population

2010: 13,656

2020: 13,635

 

 

 

 

 

Brecksville tends to have big backyards so what you see from the road might not be representative.   

Cleveland saw a substantial drop in violent crime during 2024

 

"The city of Cleveland saw a dramatic drop in homicides in 2024, according to numbers provided by the city’s data dashboard.

As of Tuesday, the city’s total for 2024 was 105 homicides. That is well-below the recent high of 180 in 2020 and the 2018 total of 116."

8 minutes ago, Balkmusic said:

Cleveland saw a substantial drop in violent crime during 2024

 

"The city of Cleveland saw a dramatic drop in homicides in 2024, according to numbers provided by the city’s data dashboard.

As of Tuesday, the city’s total for 2024 was 105 homicides. That is well-below the recent high of 180 in 2020 and the 2018 total of 116."

 

It's the drop in the other crimes, largely buried within the article, that's encouraging.    

 

The homicide numbers are largely connected to disagreements between gangs.   Though the virus era also likely resulted in an increase in domestic violence, the other main driver of homicide.

6 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

It's the drop in the other crimes, largely buried within the article, that's encouraging.    

 

The homicide numbers are largely connected to disagreements between gangs.   Though the virus era also likely resulted in an increase in domestic violence, the other main driver of homicide.

 

other way around and nothing to do with a virus, other than the unregulated weaponry virus spread across america. domestic issues are by far the annual homicide leader here and around the world and women are typically on the short end of it.

In 2023, 78% of US homicide victims were men. 

 

That's close to the 79% of global victims in 2013.

 

So I say men get the short end of that one.

 

Subtract the homicides related to gang violence that are unique to the US compared to western Europe, and our numbers get much closer to mirroring our counterparts. 

 

Edited January 3Jan 3 by TBideon

14 hours ago, mrnyc said:

 

other way around and nothing to do with a virus, other than the unregulated weaponry virus spread across america. domestic issues are by far the annual homicide leader here and around the world and women are typically on the short end of it.

 

There were a total of 112 domestic violence fatalities in Ohio in 2023:

 

https://www.stepforwardtoday.org/post/ohio-domestic-violence-rates-surge-step-forward-s-commitment-to-community-support

 

There were 929 total homicides:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/ohio/oh.htm

 

We've already discussed in this forum how gang and drug trade violence, and domestic violence, are the main drivers of homicide.

 

As for the virus, there's plenty of evidence that the "lock down" orders increased domestic violence, which is logical:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9582712/#:~:text=In short%2C the evidence is,several countries around the world.

Edited January 3Jan 3 by E Rocc

Cleveland zoo rainforest is on fire. Renovation work was being done and may have sparked the blaze.

That sounds awful. Thankfully "No animals were injured. No people were injured"

 

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/fire-breaks-out-at-cleveland-metroparks-zoo-rainforest

19 minutes ago, Jax said:

That sounds awful. Thankfully "No animals were injured. No people were injured"

 

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/fire-breaks-out-at-cleveland-metroparks-zoo-rainforest

 

Posted about this on the Zoo page.  Looked crazy, sounds minor in impact.   Sort of like our plant fire in Mentor in 2014.

 

I kinda like Kuhar placing animals first.   :)

Edited January 9Jan 9 by E Rocc

Found CPDs report on the 2020 riots looking something up:

https://www.policinginstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/City-of-Cleveland-May-30-2020-Civil-Unrest-AAR.pdf

Just heard on radio of a fire on W 3rd.  Anyone have any more info?

underground. utility -electrical.  caused power outages (and my internet)

 

Sounds like it might be domestic/mental health related but if info isn't put out there it will inevitably be portrayed otherwise:

https://www.cleveland19.com/2025/02/03/downtown-cleveland-suspect-with-butcher-knife-allegedly-chases-family-tries-board-bus/

Edited February 3Feb 3 by E Rocc

53 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

Sounds like it might be domestic/mental health related but if info isn't put out there it will inevitably be portrayed otherwise:

https://www.cleveland19.com/2025/02/03/downtown-cleveland-suspect-with-butcher-knife-allegedly-chases-family-tries-board-bus/

You would have to think so…but yikes.

Moreno has officially asked Pam Bondi to vacate the CPD "consent decree".   

 

https://www.cleveland19.com/2025/02/05/ohio-sen-moreno-asking-have-clevelands-consent-decree-dismissed/

Edited February 5Feb 5 by E Rocc

17 hours ago, E Rocc said:

Moreno has officially asked Pam Bondi to vacate the CPD "consent decree".   

 

https://www.cleveland19.com/2025/02/05/ohio-sen-moreno-asking-have-clevelands-consent-decree-dismissed/

"Let the police beat the black people again!"  ??

4 minutes ago, Foraker said:

"Let the police beat the black people again!"  ??

 

Including the mayor and almost half of council?  Come on....

5 minutes ago, Foraker said:

"Let the police beat the black people again!"  ??

I'll say this - the Consent Decree is much more expansive than just brutality, and actually has limitations on the CPD's ability to investigate crime, contact victims, etc. 

 

 

1 minute ago, YABO713 said:

I'll say this - the Consent Decree is much more expansive than just brutality, and actually has limitations on the CPD's ability to investigate crime, contact victims, etc. 

 

 

That suggests it needs reform, not necessarily elimination.  What was the original reason for the consent decree?  What conditions have changed such that the consent degree is not longer needed in any way? We've abandoned reason, just eliminating things that "the other party" did, "because."

7 minutes ago, Foraker said:

That suggests it needs reform, not necessarily elimination.  What was the original reason for the consent decree?  What conditions have changed such that the consent degree is not longer needed in any way? We've abandoned reason, just eliminating things that "the other party" did, "because."

 

I'm not saying it should be eliminated. I think parts of it are useful and will remain so. I was responding to your comment above which seemed to suggest the only rationale for it's repeal would be to let cops beat up minorities. 

The consent decree made the force much, much better than it was before. Hopefully the lessons were internalized and the force continues to operate at a high level even when the consent decree is gone.

28 minutes ago, Foraker said:

That suggests it needs reform, not necessarily elimination.  What was the original reason for the consent decree?  What conditions have changed such that the consent degree is not longer needed in any way? We've abandoned reason, just eliminating things that "the other party" did, "because."

 

What suggests it needs elimination are credible reports that monitors have been acting in a manner that perpetuates it, preserving their rather lucrative roles.