As some of you wouldn't go down or feel comfortable on Woodland, I don't feel safe or comfortable in LI.

 

Overall, though, it's ridiculous to say it's like a white person walking down Woodland.  The racial issues may exist in both places, but beyond that, the extreme poverty and much higher crime rate on Woodland should make it far scarier for people of ANY race.

THANK YOU. it is ill informed for white people to say it is LESS safe for them in such an area. There is no evidence to back this up. Sure a few more eyes may be on you b/c you look different, but to surmise that someone who is white is more likely to be victimized than their black counterpart just is not true.  I can assure you that our African American peers (ie middle class, etc) feel just as apprehensive in a poor, high crime area, esp if they were never exposed to poverty.

Is it actually LESS safe for a black person in LI, either?  How would one go about gathering evidence to back up or to disprove the validity of these feelings, anyway?

OK let me clarify (to X).

I am speaking about the misconception that white people think it is more dangerous for them in a poor, black area, than for a black person with same demographics in that same neighborhood. I am not saying this is specific to woodland hills. Rather my statement is  taken from general crime data presented in too many years of education in social  sciences.  The myth was debunked over and over again (even with consideration to confounders such as a white person being less likely to be in a African American nabe).  Anecdotally, my black colleagues have shared with me over the many years I have logged in inner city work, that they think it ridiculous when white people think that they are more comfortable going into the public housing just b/c they are black. High crime neighborhoods are a risk to anyone regardless of race.

 

 

I cannot speak for little Italy or whether it is more unsafe for African American in staunchly white areas. It would be interesting to know though. I think people are always looking at it the other way around.  I know agian, from conversations with other professionals in the area, some African Americans are more uncomfortable in near westside (extreme white poverty in some pockets) than in predominately African American areas. But again, I know of know body of research that addresses actual safety dfferences or not.

OK let me clarify (to X).

I am speaking about the misconception that white people think it is more dangerous for them in a poor, black area, than for a black person with same demographics in that same neighborhood. I am not saying this is specific to woodland hills. Rather my statement is taken from general crime data presented in too many years of education in social sciences. The myth was debunked over and over again (even with consideration to confounders such as a white person being less likely to be in a African American nabe).

 

I understood what you were saying, I just am not sure I agree.  I have alot of that same educational background (BA, Urban Studies specifically) and I am not so sure I trust the validity of the information/opinions we were presented.  I have probably spent alot of time in the same neighborhoods you have, as well.  There are definitely been times when it was made clear to me that I was unwelcome specifically because I was white.  Unwelcome and unsafe maybe two different things, and you could argue that because I wasn't attacked that I was safe, but I would argue that anytime you are unwelcome somewhere, your safety becomes highly provisional. 

 

But really, the question I posed is the main point I was trying to make.  I don't think you can parse it out of crime stats or out of how bad a "vibe" someone gets in a certain neighborhood or what comments were made to them.  The only way I can think would be to march a large control group of people matching a neighborhood's demographic profile (rife with pitfalls itself) one by one down a specific stretch of road, and then march some "outsider group" down that same stretch one by one, and see who gets assaulted more often.  But it would be hard to find volunteers for that.

Its those Italians.  You just can't trust 'em!

http://www.acmewebpages.com/midi/leaving.wav

Some African-Americans are scared to death to venture in Little Italy, mainly because of past incidents when they were attacked. But I've sat in a sidewalk cafe on Mayfield and seen a young black man play his music too loud in his car. A couple of casually but nicely dressed guys who looked straight out of the Sopranos (the fact they were standing in front of Nido Italia Restaurant is even more stereotypical) go running out into the street after the musical offender. The driver took off.

 

At my alma mater, as a white man, I was a minority. My classmates (from Cleveland) told me they were scared to go out into the suburbs and all have stories of being harassed by officers in suburban police departments.

Some African-Americans are scared to death to venture in Little Italy, mainly because of past incidents when they were attacked. But I've sat in a sidewalk cafe on Mayfield and seen a young black man play his music too loud in his car. A couple of casually but nicely dressed guys who looked straight out of the Sopranos (the fact they were standing in front of Nido Italia Restaurant is even more stereotypical) go running out into the street after the musical offender. The driver took off.

 

At my alma mater, as a white man, I was a minority. My classmates (from Cleveland) told me they were scared to go out into the suburbs and all have stories of being harassed by officers in suburban police departments.

 

KJP its true.  My mothers brothers will not come to Cleveland Hts. or Shaker Hts.  The only exception is my grandmothers birthday and mothers day.  They will not stay after dark, even in the year 2008.

 

I had to be 10-11 years old, and my uncles and their families were coming to my aunt and Uncles home, on Fairmount.

 

When going east on Fairmount, you have to drive past my Aunt/Uncles house then turn back west.  This particular day, the police decided to stop my Uncle.  My Uncles all speak english, but its clearly their second language and they have very very heavy accents.  The CH police gave them such a hard time because they were driving slow. And because the police were speaking fast and using words my uncles didn't necessarily understand, they became confused.

 

Luckily, we happened to be driving past, so my parents stopped and got out to find out what was up.  My mother explained that they were just coming over to her sisters house and initially the police didn't believe that my aunt/uncle lived on Fairmount.  As the police "insinuated" that they were "out of place" and possibly criminals.  and add things like, "why would you westsiders be on the eastside?"

 

Those things leave lasting impressions and it's hard to get over.

 

I'm sure not all residents of LI are racist, but the area's past history of not being very welcoming to people of color has never been addressed.

 

Its easy for white people to move into a neighborhood of color and make changes, but not for a families of color.

OK let me clarify (to X).

I am speaking about the misconception that white people think it is more dangerous for them in a poor, black area, than for a black person with same demographics in that same neighborhood. I am not saying this is specific to woodland hills. Rather my statement is  taken from general crime data presented in too many years of education in social sciences.  The myth was debunked over and over again (even with consideration to confounders such as a white person being less likely to be in a African American nabe). 

 

I understood what you were saying, I just am not sure I agree.  I have alot of that same educational background (BA, Urban Studies specifically) and I am not so sure I trust the validity of the information/opinions we were presented.  I have probably spent alot of time in the same neighborhoods you have, as well.  There are definitely been times when it was made clear to me that I was unwelcome specifically because I was white.  Unwelcome and unsafe maybe two different things, and you could argue that because I wasn't attacked that I was safe, but I would argue that anytime you are unwelcome somewhere, your safety becomes highly provisional. 

 

But really, the question I posed is the main point I was trying to make.  I don't think you can parse it out of crime stats or out of how bad a "vibe" someone gets in a certain neighborhood or what comments were made to them.  The only way I can think would be to march a large control group of people matching a neighborhood's demographic profile (rife with pitfalls itself) one by one down a specific stretch of road, and then march some "outsider group" down that same stretch one by one, and see who gets assaulted more often.  But it would be hard to find volunteers for that.

 

Well I am stuck with the disconnect between perception and reality (unwelcome vs unsafe).  Do you think if you are scared, you actually become more vulnerable than someone who is not? interesting.  When we have  nervous suburban friends visit, and go into OC, etc, all the hanging around the bus stop people that ignore me every day leave me alone. But they flock toward the suburbanites leaving my husband and I standing there like WTF? Then said friends decide they need to park in monitored lots. It is if there is special radar. So the solution? don't be scared I guess. I still don't know if they are actually more prone to victimization.

 

I was recently (only for a day though!) in a Muslim country where we felt VERY unwelcome and were treated very rudely (at least from our cultural standpoint).  Were we actually unsafe b/c we were western? Probably not-just did not feel good.

Its easy for white people to move into a neighborhood of color and make changes, but not for a families of color.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by that statement, but I don't think I agree.  What changes?  And why would they be more difficult for one race than another?

Its easy for white people to move into a neighborhood of color and make changes, but not for a families of color.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by that statement, but I don't think I agree.  What changes?  And why would they be more difficult for one race than another?

 

Say white people move to Chinatown/Asian Village, Fairfax or Hough, they aren't usually accused of "bring down the neighborhood" but of cleansing it of its "character" (ie gentrification).

 

Yet if a Black person moved to say LI, (I'm generalizing) or Parma Hts., people would be concerned that "there goes the neighborhood".

 

Granted in neighborhoods where there is a mix of people, ages, races, it can happen as well.

 

I have a cousin who lives on Daleford (in Shaker).  Over the winter a new family moved in, they are from the westside, as it started to get warmer, the family kids would leave toys on the lawn or in neighbors lawn or the kids would run on other peoples property.

 

Over memorial day, they  had their music blasting so my cousin went over to talk to them about how things run on their street.  They weren't used to that where they came from and, from what my cousin told me, they were slightly offended when first approached, but now "get" why the neighborhood is so nice.

 

 

Say white people move to Chinatown/Asian Village, Fairfax or Hough, they aren't usually accused of "bring down the neighborhood" but of cleansing it of its "character" (ie gentrification).

 

Yet if a Black person moved to say LI, (I'm generalizing) or Parma Hts., people would be concerned that "there goes the neighborhood".

 

Granted in neighborhoods where there is a mix of people, ages, races, it can happen as well.

 

Fair.  Needless to say, like it or not race is an issue in america.  And there are just some crummy people on both sides of the fence.

Fair.  Needless to say, like it or not race is an issue in america.  And there are just some crummy people on both sides of the fence.

 

Mayor McCleveland, I couldn't agree more. 

Its easy for white people to move into a neighborhood of color and make changes, but not for a families of color.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by that statement, but I don't think I agree. What changes? And why would they be more difficult for one race than another?

 

Say white people move to Chinatown/Asian Village, Fairfax or Hough, they aren't usually accused of "bring down the neighborhood" but of cleansing it of its "character" (ie gentrification).

 

Yet if a Black person moved to say LI, (I'm generalizing) or Parma Hts., people would be concerned that "there goes the neighborhood".

 

 

I don't get the difference.  Or rather I do, but don't think it matters.  If you're not wanted there, and that is def my experience that in black neighborhoods white folk are not, then you aren't wanted there.

 

BTW- Quite a lot of white people already live in Chinatown/Asian Village.  It's really a mixed neighborhood, and was traditionally white.

I don't get the difference.  Or rather I do, but don't think it matters.  If you're not wanted there, and that is def my experience that in black neighborhoods white folk are not, then you aren't wanted there.

 

That's how I feel about LI.

 

 

OK let me clarify (to X).

I am speaking about the misconception that white people think it is more dangerous for them in a poor, black area, than for a black person with same demographics in that same neighborhood. I am not saying this is specific to woodland hills. Rather my statement is taken from general crime data presented in too many years of education in social sciences. The myth was debunked over and over again (even with consideration to confounders such as a white person being less likely to be in a African American nabe).

 

I understood what you were saying, I just am not sure I agree. I have alot of that same educational background (BA, Urban Studies specifically) and I am not so sure I trust the validity of the information/opinions we were presented. I have probably spent alot of time in the same neighborhoods you have, as well. There are definitely been times when it was made clear to me that I was unwelcome specifically because I was white. Unwelcome and unsafe maybe two different things, and you could argue that because I wasn't attacked that I was safe, but I would argue that anytime you are unwelcome somewhere, your safety becomes highly provisional.

 

But really, the question I posed is the main point I was trying to make. I don't think you can parse it out of crime stats or out of how bad a "vibe" someone gets in a certain neighborhood or what comments were made to them. The only way I can think would be to march a large control group of people matching a neighborhood's demographic profile (rife with pitfalls itself) one by one down a specific stretch of road, and then march some "outsider group" down that same stretch one by one, and see who gets assaulted more often. But it would be hard to find volunteers for that.

 

Well I am stuck with the disconnect between perception and reality (unwelcome vs unsafe).

 

Being unwelcome isn't perception.  It is a fact if you are unwelcome in a neighborhood.  You could misperceive that fact though, just as you could misperceive your safety.

 

 

Let's be honest.  There are definitely black neighborhoods where a white person would be violently harassed/mugged/killed if he were walking around it.  It would be a surprise if that did not happen.     

 

I don't really see the converse of that, at least in Cleveland.

I take it you have statistical proof that such events take place in said neighborhoods?

Let's be honest.  There are definitely black neighborhoods where a white person would be violently harassed/mugged/killed if he were walking around it.  It would be a surprise if that did not happen.     

 

I don't really see the converse of that, at least in Cleveland.

 

In an attempt to stem off a flame-war, I wonder if you have any stats to back up your claim.  If what you say is true, it would mean that either white folks rarely walk through black neighborhoods (a claim that is contradicted by even the most cursory survey of black neighborhoods and even the experiences of folks on this very thread) or that the hospitals and morgues are filled with the bodies of white folks who made the mistake of walking through Hough, Kinsman, Mount Pleasant, etc.

 

Be very careful here, Eparabola.

Let's be honest.  There are definitely black neighborhoods where a white person would be violently harassed/mugged/killed if he were walking around it.  It would be a surprise if that did not happen.     

 

I don't really see the converse of that, at least in Cleveland.

 

WOW!  Just wow!  What an ignorant ass comment!

Nope.  Just unpolitically correct opinion based on the media/anecdotes/intuition. 

 

 

Nope.  Just unpolitically correct opinion based on the media/anecdotes/intuition. 

 

 

 

So you decide to join in the ignorance?  Instead of repairing and/or correcting that information you feed right into it?  Great....just great!

and I didn't mean to offend anyone.  Not trying to start a flame war.

and I didn't mean to offend anyone.  Not trying to start a flame war.

 

Well you've done a damn good job of doing just that!

 

You insulted people who live in traditionally black neighborhods, that are fighting misinformed people like you, people who have never once stepped or spent any quality time in their neighborhood, yet because it's in Cleveland it's preceived as "dangerous".  Prime example of such a neighborhood is where my where my grandparents live in Glenville.

 

In addition, you've insulted non whites who live and work in those very same areas.

Its easy for white people to move into a neighborhood of color and make changes, but not for a families of color.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by that statement, but I don't think I agree.  What changes?  And why would they be more difficult for one race than another?

 

Say white people move to Chinatown/Asian Village, Fairfax or Hough, they aren't usually accused of "bring down the neighborhood" but of cleansing it of its "character" (ie gentrification).

 

Yet if a Black person moved to say LI, (I'm generalizing) or Parma Hts., people would be concerned that "there goes the neighborhood".

 

Granted in neighborhoods where there is a mix of people, ages, races, it can happen as well.

 

I have a cousin who lives on Daleford (in Shaker).  Over the winter a new family moved in, they are from the westside, as it started to get warmer, the family kids would leave toys on the lawn or in neighbors lawn or the kids would run on other peoples property.

 

Over memorial day, they  had their music blasting so my cousin went over to talk to them about how things run on their street.  They weren't used to that where they came from and, from what my cousin told me, they were slightly offended when first approached, but now "get" why the neighborhood is so nice.

 

 

 

I know the attitudes may be different in the two cases, but I think the hostilities and lack of personal safety faced in both cases would be similar.  This is a safety thread, not one about race, after all.  (I would be about the last person on here to disagree with you that there are still WAY too many racial issues in this country.)

Let's be honest.  There are definitely black neighborhoods where a white person would be violently harassed/mugged/killed if he were walking around it.  It would be a surprise if that did not happen. 

 

 

That just is not true...I have spent a lot of time going in and out of foreclosed and abandoned homes in the worst of the worst areas of Cleveland and I am about as white as the come...In 4 years I have never been harassed, mugged or even had anything stolen out of my truck (which has A LOT of tools in it)...Usually I get, "are you guys looking for workers"...

 

Even though I have never done ANY research into this, I would bet 85% of murder's and violent crimes are either domestically or drug related (But that probably is true for most cities) in those hoods...If you're not looking for trouble, trouble won't find you...

 

 

There is no doubt some neighborhoods are more dangerous than others, but I think people almost always greatly exaggerate how dangerous they actually are.  To say that it "would be a surprise" if someone walked down a street and didn't get mugged is quite out of touch with reality.  It may be more likely to happen than in other areas, but the percentage is still low.  It's not like you have even a 5% chance of it happening on any one occurrence of walking down even the worst street, let alone the 75% chance or whatever it would take to fall into the "surprised it didn't happen" category.

Yet if a Black person moved to say LI, (I'm generalizing) or Parma Hts., people would be concerned that "there goes the neighborhood".

 

 

I saw the most sobering documentary on PBC Frontline about this. It was found to be true that home prices dropped after a neighborhood started changing in demographics of white to black. It was not due directly to white flight, but also attributed in large part to the terrible motgage rates and predatory lending that are offered to African American buyers. Of course everyone knows that creditors give higher interest rates to African American with the same credit as Whites.  Anyway bad loans F' everything up. This mortgage crisis proved that, although AA's were not the only ones impacted.

and this has what to do with Cleveland Public Safety?

 

 

you never took a social studies class, even undergrad? Big picture. Big picture. Racism, decline, poverty all swirl around and are related to cirme and safety. Shocking I know. If you rather, I will copy and paste the story from cleveland.com about the postman getting beat up.

you never took a social studies class, even undergrad? Big picture. Big picture. Racism, decline, poverty all swirl around and are related to cirme and safety. Shocking I know. If you rather, I will copy and paste the story from cleveland.com about the postman getting beat up.

 

1) Don't use thinly veiled insults to criticize my intelligence. Err gee, what's Social Studies?

 

2) Its been lingering off topic towards a bunch of barstool social demographers with absolutely no facts, tons of happenstance observations and some blatant racism. Your post had absolutely nothing to do with Cleveland and Public Safety, don't take it personally just because I chose to bring out the ax on your post.

The PD article didn't state where on W.30th the postman was hit. I'd like to know where. The stretch of W.30th in Ohio City is very small (with half of it located on St. Ignatius' campus). PD needs to give us a better indication of where this occurred.

 

 

 

I don't get the difference.  Or rather I do, but don't think it matters.  If you're not wanted there, and that is def my experience that in black neighborhoods white folk are not, then you aren't wanted there.

 

That's how I feel about LI.

 

 

 

You're entitled to that feeling and it may even be accurate.  What's aggrevating about this conversation is that some people aren't willing to concede that it may often work the opposite way, as well.  As if a white person who feels that way in a black neighborhood is just being an ignorant, latently racist white suburbanite.

The PD article didn't state where on W.30th the postman was hit. I'd like to know where. The stretch of W.30th in Ohio City is very small (with half of it located on St. Ignatius' campus). PD needs to give us a better indication of where this occurred.

 

http://www.woio.com/global/story.asp?s=8466268

 

The attack happened a couple blocks south of Clark Ave. on W. 30th.

Ugh.  This is just terrible:

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/06/cleveland_man_stabbed_to_death.html

 

 

My Mom actually knows the partner of the victim and discovered what happened completely by accident because she called him this morning to talk about other business.  In addition to his partner being killed, his dog died yesterday!  What a terrible week!  This area must be getting worse than it used to be.

Ugh. This is just terrible:

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/06/cleveland_man_stabbed_to_death.html

 

 

My Mom actually knows the partner of the victim and discovered what happened completely by accident because she called him this morning to talk about other business. In addition to his partner being killed, his dog died yesterday! What a terrible week! This area must be getting worse than it used to be.

 

Good lord, the cleveland.com comments on that one are rediculous.  Can someone just make it so that people can't comment on news stories for the sake of city moral????  Honestly.

Ugh.  This is just terrible:

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/06/cleveland_man_stabbed_to_death.html

 

 

My Mom actually knows the partner of the victim and discovered what happened completely by accident because she called him this morning to talk about other business.  In addition to his partner being killed, his dog died yesterday!  What a terrible week!  This area must be getting worse than it used to be.

 

Good lord, the cleveland.com comments on that one are rediculous.  Can someone just make it so that people can't comment on news stories for the sake of city moral????  Honestly.

 

Those people get away with that because the editors don't care.  This is why I love UO, because its a privilege to post information here, not a right.

 

In addition, the information posted here is CORRECT or ACCURATE.

I know, it just sucks, cause more commonfolk read cleveland.com than UO....  Which obviously does nothing for combatting city misconceptions!

This area must be getting worse than it used to be.

 

It couldn't just have been an isolated incident?  I think I'll reserve judgment until that neighborhood sees a murder every week or even every month.

actually that street is not the greatest south of detroit. I use it for a short cut a lot to get to Franklin on the other side of 117. Regardless, it is a very unfortunate incident.

The sketchiest part of Detroit begins around W.80th and continues to about West Blvd. Between West Blvd and W.112th, it is more of a no-man's land than any thing else. After W.112, Detroit appears to be preparing to become Lakewood.

You don't have to tell me it's not the best part of the neighborhood- I grew up there there!  I just disagree with the statement that the "area must be getting worse than it used to be" because in my experience, it's actually been improving. 

This was on the local news last night here in Miami/Ft. Lauderdale:

 

http://videos.cleveland.com/plain-dealer/2008/06/shooting_at_a_gas_station.html

I don't get it .. did the guy get shot in the very beginning of the video, the one nearest the car?

(My suggested headline? "DUMBASS")

 

Man arrested in connection with beating after release from jail

Thursday, June 26, 2008

Mark Puente

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf/base/cuyahoga/121446908651370.xml&coll=2&thispage=1

 

Thirty minutes after a 20-year-old Cleveland man was released from jail Friday, police said the man celebrated his freedom by breaking into his ex-girlfriend's house and stabbing her boyfriend.

 

Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Judge Stuart Friedman found Miguel Hernandez not guilty June 11 on charges of kidnapping, ag gravated rob bery and feloni ous assault. He was accused of using a pipe to beat up another man.

 

...

 

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:

[email protected], 216-999-4141

 

Yeah Pendejo is an accurate title!

http://www.spotcrime.com/oh/cleveland

 

I'm not sure how accurate this site is, but its interesting to see crime mapped.

http://www.spotcrime.com/oh/cleveland

 

I'm not sure how accurate this site is, but its interesting to see crime mapped.

 

Hehe, that's fun!  Now, my sardonic side wants to say - "Oh look!  Crimes don't happen much downtown.  Imagine that!  Take that all you pessimists!"

I am reading some bizzare stories from that site now. 

 

Here are a couple doozies:

 

"A South Euclid woman picked up two plants at Church of the Good Shepherd on Cedar Road after a potted plant sale May 11, but she left a note saying she would return the next day to pay for the items. When she returned, she only paid $20 for the items, although the price was $33.98. Church volunteers took her license plate number and police tracked her down later that day. She reluctantly wrote a check for the $13.98 she owed the church."

 

"Cleveland man, 43, was arrested Friday at Heinen's Fine Foods, 16611 Chagrin Blvd. He attempted to leave the store with 13 bags of shrimp valued at $147. The same day, a Shaker man, 52, was arrested for trying to leave the store without paying for plants."

 

"A Lyndhurst woman, 18, and a Cleveland Heights girl, 17, were caught Friday stuffing items in a baby stroller and trying to leave the Wal-Mart at Severance Center."

 

"Two women were arrested May 8 for assaulting a 30-year-old West 34th woman by hitting her several bricks and then and then spraying charcoal lighter fluid on her."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

^Agreed! Working in a hotel, guests always ask "is it safe to go there?" and I always tell them that anywhere where there are lots of people and lights (w6th, e4th, coventry, tremont, west bank flats) has a pretty good police presence. It's when you start wandering away down murky side streets into dark neighborhoods that the problems start.