They called it the "Wild, Wild" West for a reason.  Everyone was armed yet criminals were not deterred.

 

In Kennesaw, GA citizens are required to carry a gun and apparently have not had a murder there for some time (25 years as of 2007) and crime has dropped. Personally, I think a small town like Kennesaw isn't a fair assessment on gun law consequences and extrapolating the effects to a city like Cleveland isn't exactly fair. But your comment made me think of that town.

 

I'm of the belief that the city should really focus on crime first and foremost over any other service (including education, roads, etc..). If you can make the city safe first the other things will come. I also agree with Clevelander17, legalize drugs so the police can focus on violent offenders.

 

There are plenty of wealthy suburbs which have not seen a murder for many years.  And as it turns out, Kennesaw is now not one of them.  From January of this year:

 

Three Confirmed Dead Following Shooting at Penske Truck Rental Store in Kennesaw, Georgia

 

I was interested in finding out more, so I found an article with the following quote:

 

Prior to enactment of the law, Kennesaw had a population of just 5,242 but a crime rate significantly higher (4,332 per 100,000) [1981] than the national average (3,899 per 100,000). The latest statistics available – for the year 2005 – show the rate at 2,027 per 100,000. Meanwhile, the population has skyrocketed to 28,189.

 

Now, it would really be interesting to find out the effects of such a law, but claims such as this are extremely shoddy research.  Kennesaw went from a rather poor cow town to a boom suburb of the symbol of wealth and prosperity in the South, of course the crime rate dropped significantly.  It's irresponsible to draw the conclusion that this was in any way correlated to the gun law.

 

Oh, I agree. My fiancee is from a place close to that town and her mother ALWAYS mentions the gun law (among other things) when we drive through/by (really, if you are in Atlanta, you pretty much only drive by things.. ahh sprawl).

the Sup. Ct. with all its commie liberals

 

What an awful thing to say about Thomas, Scalia, Roberts, and Alito ;)

 

You know who I was talking about......Kennedy!

They called it the "Wild, Wild" West for a reason.  Everyone was armed yet criminals were not deterred.

 

There was also little or no respect for the rule of law and those enforcing it.  I'm sorry I even mentioned the term "Wild West" because now a few of you guys have turned it into a red herring.  Regardless of whether or not more people start carrying, our modern society will continue to have little in common with the old West in the 1800s.

the Sup. Ct. with all its commie liberals

 

What an awful thing to say about Thomas, Scalia, Roberts, and Alito ;)

 

You know who I was talking about......Kennedy!

 

Wait.... Are you saying that Ronald Reagan (i.e. "he who shall not be questioned") nominated a commie liberal to our Nation's highest court?  Hmmmmm.... I am going to have to look into some of Reagan's other "associations" / appointments.  This is pretty damning evidence that he too may have been a commie liberal.

 

There was also little or no respect for the rule of law and those enforcing it. 

 

And there is now?  Isn't rampant crime the whole point of this conversation.  In the Wild West, at least they allowed you to square your shoulders and draw at the same time.

They called it the "Wild, Wild" West for a reason. Everyone was armed yet criminals were not deterred.

 

There was also little or no respect for the rule of law and those enforcing it.

 

Whereas now there is?  In that case, all guns should be banned and everyone will comply, correct?

They called it the "Wild, Wild" West for a reason. Everyone was armed yet criminals were not deterred.

 

There was also little or no respect for the rule of law and those enforcing it.

 

Whereas now there is? In that case, all guns should be banned and everyone will comply, correct?

 

Before we go any further, I need to concede that most of my understanding of the old West comes from movies. ;)  But that said, I do think there is a decent level of respect for law enforcement these days amongst most people.  Respect in the manner that they may not like the cops, but they realize that they can take their freedom away if they break the law.  However the problem is that the police force in large cities like Cleveland is spread way too thin and the citizens can't always count on them to be there 24/7 to protect them.  Citizens must be prepared to protect themselves, and if there were most instances where thugs in the act of committing crimes are blown away by citizens protecting themselves, that it should act as a deterrent down the line.

Citizens can help protect themselves by getting involved and this does not mean you have to pack a load or brandish one or get into a rootin' tootin' heee hawww shoot out that results from male testosterone run wild. Block Watch...keep eyes on streets...call police as the more calls they get in a given area, the more they will be compelled to respond. Too many people want to place all the load on the cops these days and at the same time not do their part to help the cause. They cannot be everywhere all the time...so, if you see, or hear something that just does not look right.. Call the police!  This message as relayed by a member of the second district itself. Small things that many people see as no reason to call police often lead to the climaxes that have someone getting hurt. So, we need to start nipping in the bud that which can escalate; and to do that it helps to become familiar with circumstances that can become ugly. Involved eyes on streets can do a lot to help.

Citizens can help protect themselves by getting involved and this does not mean you have to pack a load or brandish one or get into a rootin' tootin' heee hawww shoot out. Block Watch...keep eyes on streets...call police as the more calls they get in a given area, the more they will be compelled to respond. Too many people want to place all the load on the cops these days and at the same time not do their part to help the cause. They cannot be everywhere all the time...so, if you see, or hear something that just does not look right.. Call the police!  This message as relayed by a member of the second district itself. Small things that many people see as no reason to call police often lead to the climaxes that have someone getting hurt. So, we need to start nipping in the bud that which can escalate. Involved eyes on streets can do a lot to help.

 

I completely agree!

"Wait.... Are you saying that Ronald Reagan (i.e. "he who shall not be questioned") nominated a commie liberal to our Nation's highest court?  Hmmmmm.... I am going to have to look into some of Reagan's other "associations" / appointments.  This is pretty damning evidence that he too may have been a commie liberal."

 

It was a big secret- Reagan was a Closet Commie.

 

Citizens can help protect themselves by getting involved and this does not mean you have to pack a load or brandish one or get into a rootin' tootin' heee hawww shoot out that results from male testosterone run wild. Block Watch...keep eyes on streets...call police as the more calls they get in a given area, the more they will be compelled to respond. Too many people want to place all the load on the cops these days and at the same time not do their part to help the cause. They cannot be everywhere all the time...so, if you see, or hear something that just does not look right.. Call the police!  This message as relayed by a member of the second district itself. Small things that many people see as no reason to call police often lead to the climaxes that have someone getting hurt. So, we need to start nipping in the bud that which can escalate; and to do that it helps to become familiar with circumstances that can become ugly. Involved eyes on streets can do a lot to help.

 

Your estrogen-fueled screams for assistance may help some (provided that the thug hasn't neutralized you already), but there's more than one way to skin a cat.  Like you said, the cops can't be everywhere at once.

Citizens can help protect themselves by getting involved and this does not mean you have to pack a load or brandish one or get into a rootin' tootin' heee hawww shoot out that results from male testosterone run wild. Block Watch...keep eyes on streets...call police as the more calls they get in a given area, the more they will be compelled to respond. Too many people want to place all the load on the cops these days and at the same time not do their part to help the cause. They cannot be everywhere all the time...so, if you see, or hear something that just does not look right.. Call the police! This message as relayed by a member of the second district itself. Small things that many people see as no reason to call police often lead to the climaxes that have someone getting hurt. So, we need to start nipping in the bud that which can escalate; and to do that it helps to become familiar with circumstances that can become ugly. Involved eyes on streets can do a lot to help.

 

 

As respectfully as I can I must say that this attitude is simplistic.  I remember seeing a statistic for one of the distressed Cleveland neighborhoods (I think some young girl had been kidnapped, raped and killed) indicating that there were hundreds of registered sex offenders within one mile of the body and it would take police an inordinate amount of time to interview all of them rather than use other investigative tactics.  Can you imagine, hundreds of registered sex offenders.  How many felons convicted of violent crimes do you think it takes to ruin a neighborhood? We have to lock these people up permanently.  BAd prison food is not going to deter them.  Hard matresses is not going to deter them.  Guns are not going to deter them.  They have already given up on their own humanity.  The only thing we can do is lock them up. 

Citizens can help protect themselves by getting involved and this does not mean you have to pack a load or brandish one or get into a rootin' tootin' heee hawww shoot out that results from male testosterone run wild. Block Watch...keep eyes on streets...call police as the more calls they get in a given area, the more they will be compelled to respond. Too many people want to place all the load on the cops these days and at the same time not do their part to help the cause. They cannot be everywhere all the time...so, if you see, or hear something that just does not look right.. Call the police!  This message as relayed by a member of the second district itself. Small things that many people see as no reason to call police often lead to the climaxes that have someone getting hurt. So, we need to start nipping in the bud that which can escalate; and to do that it helps to become familiar with circumstances that can become ugly. Involved eyes on streets can do a lot to help.

 

Your estrogen-fueled screams for assistance may help some (provided that the thug hasn't neutralized you already), but there's more than one way to skin a cat.  Like you said, the cops can't be everywhere at once.

 

Man come on with that insulting BS.  EC is right in this situation.  We have far to many people to sit back and say , "they should do....." but wont get involved themselves and that attitude is 50% of the problem in some neighborhoods.

Folks - while there might be some indirect tie-in on some of these posts, let's keep the thread on topic.

There is alot of coulda-shoulda-woulda discussion going on here, some I agree with some I dont. However, from someone who works for CPD, I can tell you the best course of action to take in hopes of rectifying this is to call and complain to your local POLITICIANS, after filing a police report of course. This city is not proactive, it is reactive. CPD, along with any other city department operates on a shoestring budget, which BARELY accomplishes the most minimal tasks. There are 5 districts in this city, each district has roughly 6-7 zones (all of which can be located on the C of C Police Website). During a standard 10 hour shift, each zone has 2 patrol cars assigned to it, outside of any specialized units operating in that area, which is most likely not the case. Last year CPD had 350,000 calls, i'm not gonna do the math, but odds are those 2 patrol cars for your zone are going from 911 call to 911 call, leaving NO TIME for an AREA patrol, which is what is needed to DETER crime. I  wont even get in to the fact that the city doesn't fix the radio system, or the broke computers in the cars so we can look up bad guy info, or isn't even installing computers in the brand new cars. I hope it upsets you all, because it upsets all of us on the job. But my point here is that this is not at the police department level. Not the Chief or the Safety Director can make or correct these decisions. Yes, they can make recommendations, but only the Mayor, City Council, and Finance committees are gonna be the  people who can make change, much much needed change.

 

 

And yes, criminals are everywhere and self awareness is the first thing in crime prevention and don't forget, this is a big city and all big cities typically have crime issues. But, that is not an excuse. Having said that, ALOT of criminals do originate and reside on the EASTSIDE. In my short time on the job, the 3 stolen vehicles I have personally recovered, all were found East of E.55th and were all stolen out of LAKEWOOD. Not saying Lakewoods evil, although its alot different now than when i grew up there, but kids from Carver Park know that the Doctors live in Avon, Medina, etc, they see them drive past their projects in their Volvos and BMW's at least twice a day. But its easier and more profitable to cruise to a Cleveland yuppy bar or yuppy suburb and rob/steal from there, than it is their own hood. My point is criminals know where the money is and they travel to it. Lakewood, DSW, Its not that hard to hop on RTA and be in any suburb in 40 minutes, steal a car and joyride it for the weekend.

I hope it upsets you all, because it upsets all of us on the job. But my point here is that this is not at the police department level. Not the Chief or the Safety Director can make or correct these decisions. Yes, they can make recommendations, but only the Mayor, City Council, and Finance committees are gonna be the  people who can make change, much much needed change.

 

That's a fair point, and valuable for its inside perspective, but it doesn't explain the amount of time officers spend on traffic patrol rather than protecting citizens from violence.  We discussed an article a couple years ago where some reporter shadowed "supercop" while he sat in his car scanning everyone's license plates.  If there isn't time to guard entertainment districts, there certainly isn't time for that business.  Those officers who mistook the lady for the deer had been hanging out in a graveyard that night, in a neighborhood beset with violence, nowhere near any potential victims they might save.  The chief and/or the safety director can and should be held responsible for what they choose to do with the resources they have.  If all the police did was respond to 911 calls, there would never be any cruisers sitting around, they'd have their sirens on 24/7.

^ Good points. On the other side of what I posted about neighbors getting involved....at the same time, police cannot simply wait 'til after the fact to show up...or unless its anything short of murder. This is what I was talking about when I mentioned nipping the small in the bud before it becomes the worse. Prevention, prevention, prevention...the resources available also need to be used in that way, but to do that, a new philosophy must me adopted within the department that recognizes the importance of prevention....and replace the old one that won;t show up unless they hear the shots, so to speak.

 

One other thing...... Just as citizens should be understanding of the needs and dilemmas of the department....this does not happen w/o the police department understanding the needs of citizens, afterall, they are citizens as well---And sometimes no matter how much people take that buck passing statement of "complain to the politicians" and do it....sometimes, STILL nothing gets done.

 

I live in Cleveland most of the time, however, help family out in Warren a few days out of the week...and I can use that city as a classic example that despite citizen outcry to their elected officials to create the needed changes...despite the solutions being handed to them on a silver patter and despite people attending the appropriate meetings... despite the department given the tools they need to be effective......The police department is still a neglectful, non-responsive failure.

 

From dealing with them frequently, it is NOT always because council has not armed them with what they need,or citizens did not speak up.... it is the pass the buck, "I don't care about prevention...and unless its anything short of murder I won't show up" mentality from the chief that has infected the rest of the department. No leadership, no example setting...  So I cannot always blame a council or the politicians for the ineffectiveness of a department. Sometimes in Warren the case was that council was blaming police...police were blaming council....and guess what? Nothing gets done. The CPD is a breath of fresh air compared to Warren. Whether Warren had the resources or not...they have been ineffective for a long time and a lot had to do with the Chief.

 

At the same time....All this does not make me acknowledge any less the points I made earlier..and the points MTS echoed about citizen involvement.

Citizens can help protect themselves by getting involved and this does not mean you have to pack a load or brandish one or get into a rootin' tootin' heee hawww shoot out that results from male testosterone run wild. Block Watch...keep eyes on streets...call police as the more calls they get in a given area, the more they will be compelled to respond. Too many people want to place all the load on the cops these days and at the same time not do their part to help the cause. They cannot be everywhere all the time...so, if you see, or hear something that just does not look right.. Call the police!  This message as relayed by a member of the second district itself. Small things that many people see as no reason to call police often lead to the climaxes that have someone getting hurt. So, we need to start nipping in the bud that which can escalate; and to do that it helps to become familiar with circumstances that can become ugly. Involved eyes on streets can do a lot to help.

 

 

As respectfully as I can I must say that this attitude is simplistic.  I remember seeing a statistic for one of the distressed Cleveland neighborhoods (I think some young girl had been kidnapped, raped and killed) indicating that there were hundreds of registered sex offenders within one mile of the body and it would take police an inordinate amount of time to interview all of them rather than use other investigative tactics.  Can you imagine, hundreds of registered sex offenders.  How many felons convicted of violent crimes do you think it takes to ruin a neighborhood? We have to lock these people up permanently.  BAd prison food is not going to deter them.  Hard matresses is not going to deter them.  Guns are not going to deter them.  They have already given up on their own humanity.  The only thing we can do is lock them up. 

 

Well, as respectfully I can reply.....it may be "simplistic"...but it can work and has shown that it works. There are times when answers to given problems are easier than we think if all would do their part. Because of our block watching, we were able to evict tenants from an apartment building that were a growing and potentially bad problem. The building was cleaned up...but requires ongoing watch and we cannot afford to sit on our laurels with a place like that---and nearby residents know it. Sometimes there is no Lone Ranger that's going to ride in and save the day...that Lone Ranger is within all of us to do our part to watch and not hide in our homes getting doped up with television and eats. Again, getting involved to make a difference does not mean everyone has to chose to get strapped.  Lastly, it is no more simplistic an idea than thinking arming everyone will solve the problem either. I really do not want to have my 82 year old Mother having to worry about whether or not she will have to engage herself in a shoot out!

Citizens can help protect themselves by getting involved and this does not mean you have to pack a load or brandish one or get into a rootin' tootin' heee hawww shoot out that results from male testosterone run wild. Block Watch...keep eyes on streets...call police as the more calls they get in a given area, the more they will be compelled to respond. Too many people want to place all the load on the cops these days and at the same time not do their part to help the cause. They cannot be everywhere all the time...so, if you see, or hear something that just does not look right.. Call the police!  This message as relayed by a member of the second district itself. Small things that many people see as no reason to call police often lead to the climaxes that have someone getting hurt. So, we need to start nipping in the bud that which can escalate; and to do that it helps to become familiar with circumstances that can become ugly. Involved eyes on streets can do a lot to help.

 

Your estrogen-fueled screams for assistance may help some (provided that the thug hasn't neutralized you already), but there's more than one way to skin a cat.  Like you said, the cops can't be everywhere at once.

 

Well, if you want to live life gripped in the fear of what 95% of the time will not happen anyway.....that is totally your prerogative, and I respect that..but I chose to not live that way. No need for the insults either. I would rather adhere to the philosophy that lets our brains do the thinking...not our balls, and I reserve that right to be evolved.

EC, you are correct, prevention is the Key. NYPD is champion of this, as it is taught in college courses dubbed "The Broken Window" theory, lock them up for the small crimes will prevent the big crimes. NYPD has 50,000 officers to put on every street corner to deter crime, Cleveland has 1600, hence we RE-act and are not PRO-active. CPD is set up for 2000 officers, they haven't had that since 2003 layoffs, which puts us at 75% operating capacity, imagine if your business only had 75% of the workers it needed to function properly, what do u think the result would be? Again, this is at the politicians direction, The Chief and Safety Director are screaming for more people that's why they hired me last year and laid me off 2 months later,(I just got hired back last week) they even have another class that was supposed to start in August, but there are still 40 officers laid off. Politicians care about 1 thing, RE-election, if enough of their registered voters start telling them they are unhappy with their performance, only then you will see change

 

327, There is 1 CPD traffic unit, they are based DT and to my knowledge operate during rush hour, special events and are detailed to special attention areas throughout the city, there goal is to write tickets and investigate traffic accidents. Beyond that i believe every district has 1 traffic car whose mission is essentially the same. Basic patrol officers will do traffic during the course of answering assignments if time will allow. I will just tell you that the traffic stop is THE most efficient tactic in law enforcement, that is how 90% of all criminals are found. And the revenue generated from those tickets and the outcome for discovering crime is why traffic stops are ESSENTIAL to any law enforcement. Yes more time should be devoted to entertainment districts ( sounds ideal for the Mounted Unit which has been withered down to 3 officers I believe, despite the fact they have about 10 horses) but again manpower here is the issue. As far as the "Deer Incident" all i know is that I was not there, they made a mistake and they are paying for it by not receiving a paycheck for 6 months. They F@#$ed up. I believe they did what they were supposed to, but they didn't do it as good as they should have. The amount of paperwork in law enforcement is ungodly. But that's the price we pay in actually or potentially taking away someones civil right of freedom via incarceration. Responding to 911 calls isn't just driving lights and sirens to and from 911 calls. There's the Interviews, Investigations, and Reports to be written, that takes TIME! Is it possible to sit around in a cruiser for 40 minutes and be doing nothing but responding to 911 calls, ABSOLUTELY. Example, I received 4 calls yesterday as soon as roll call was out and it was 3 hours later before I reached the last call. Paperwork, paperwork, paperwork. And then when you take away things like computers, cars that actually drive, good communications, and any other technology which will only expediate the process, well it only prevents us from answering calls sooner, and this is what were given to work wioth here in Cleveland.

Citizens can help protect themselves by getting involved and this does not mean you have to pack a load or brandish one or get into a rootin' tootin' heee hawww shoot out that results from male testosterone run wild. Block Watch...keep eyes on streets...call police as the more calls they get in a given area, the more they will be compelled to respond. Too many people want to place all the load on the cops these days and at the same time not do their part to help the cause. They cannot be everywhere all the time...so, if you see, or hear something that just does not look right.. Call the police! This message as relayed by a member of the second district itself. Small things that many people see as no reason to call police often lead to the climaxes that have someone getting hurt. So, we need to start nipping in the bud that which can escalate; and to do that it helps to become familiar with circumstances that can become ugly. Involved eyes on streets can do a lot to help.

 

 

As respectfully as I can I must say that this attitude is simplistic. I remember seeing a statistic for one of the distressed Cleveland neighborhoods (I think some young girl had been kidnapped, raped and killed) indicating that there were hundreds of registered sex offenders within one mile of the body and it would take police an inordinate amount of time to interview all of them rather than use other investigative tactics. Can you imagine, hundreds of registered sex offenders. How many felons convicted of violent crimes do you think it takes to ruin a neighborhood? We have to lock these people up permanently. BAd prison food is not going to deter them. Hard matresses is not going to deter them. Guns are not going to deter them. They have already given up on their own humanity. The only thing we can do is lock them up.

 

Well, as respectfully I can reply.....it may be "simplistic"...but it can work and has shown that it works. There are times when answers to given problems are easier than we think if all would do their part. Because of our block watching, we were able to evict tenants from an apartment building that were a growing and potentially bad problem. The building was cleaned up...but requires ongoing watch and we cannot afford to sit on our laurels with a place like that---and nearby residents know it. Sometimes there is no Lone Ranger that's going to ride in and save the day...that Lone Ranger is within all of us to do our part to watch and not hide in our homes getting doped up with television and eats. Again, getting involved to make a difference does not mean everyone has to chose to get strapped. Lastly, it is no more simplistic an idea than thinking arming everyone will solve the problem either. I really do not want to have my 82 year old Mother having to worry about whether or not she will have to engage herself in a shoot out!

 

ok EC, so you got the animals  evicted from one apartment building  so they can go and terrorize  another building in the next  neighborhood. So you solved your  immediate problem what does this  solve overall? I am a block watch  "coporal" (I call our block watch  Capitan "General"). we live next  to a large park and cleaned  out the homeless who were burglarizing  the adjacent homes and intimidating  the housewives and children. Make  no mistake, we solved our problem  by moving it to the next park  on the bus line. 

 

Why don't you want to incarcerate  violent criminals?

Seriously, how many major entertainment districts does the city even have? 

 

West side:  Market Square, Gordon Square, Professor Street, the border areas of Detroit and Clifton

 

East side:  Little Italy, Waterloo, E185th, Shaker Square

 

Downtown:  Playhouse Square, WHD, E4th, Gateway, West Bank

 

I'm probably missing some, but by this count that's 14.  We can't spare 14 officers to put a visible presence in these discrete areas of need?  Obviously in some cases one cruiser couldn't monitor the whole area at once, and in other cases like WHD many officers are already assigned there on big nights.  But some of these areas go completely without police presence on some nights and that's ridiculous.  There should be at least one officer assigned each of these areas all night long.  Cleveland has clearly staked its renaissance on nightlife.  Therefore a high priority needs to be placed on protecting these assets.

^ ^    "Why don't you want to incarcerate  violent criminals?"

 

Sir, this is not what I sad AT ALL.. You show me where I made that statement. I will not be sucked into that little trap. What we did solves a lot.....and if more people get involved, like yourself as you are...then sooner or later the message will be sent that unless these people shape up...society will have NO place for them to live---in which case of they wind up in jail, so be it and I am all for that.

 

In England, there are laws that are titled something like "anti-social laws".. I don't know the exact name as it has been a long time since I was researching it, but if people become continued problems, they can be evicted from the neighborhood through due process and it is pretty strict. Here we have a similar opportunity in getting properties dubbed as a "nuisance" and such puts pressure on the property owner to straighten out the situation, evict the problem etc....  The point is that we have the groundwork laid out to make the changes to help make a situation better, BUT, most fail to use them. I understand what is on paper and what is reality are two different things, but just remember that we "make our reality" in this if not enough do their part.

 

After this...anyway you look at it, we use what tools we have and jail is the ultimate home for the offenders, then that's good. By able people running and hiding instead of trying to ban together as a community.....surrendering neighborhoods to the problem, it just drives the final nail in the coffin--and essentially those who run to McMansion land are just as much a part of the problem.

 

While speaking of jail...I also would like to see the white collar criminals incarcerated. Afterall, often is the case that organized violence and corruption at the top, breeds/seeds disorganized violence/corruption at the bottom.

Seriously, how many major entertainment districts does the city even have?

 

West side: Market Square, Gordon Square, Professor Street, the border areas of Detroit and Clifton

 

East side: Little Italy, Waterloo, E185th, Shaker Square

 

Downtown: Playhouse Square, WHD, E4th, Gateway, West Bank

 

I'm probably missing some, but by this count that's 14. We can't spare 14 officers to put a visible presence in these discrete areas of need? Obviously in some cases one cruiser couldn't monitor the whole area at once, and in other cases like WHD many officers are already assigned there on big nights. But some of these areas go completely without police presence on some nights and that's ridiculous. There should be at least one officer assigned each of these areas all night long. Cleveland has clearly staked its renaissance on nightlife. Therefore a high priority needs to be placed on protecting these assets.

 

Establishing a presence is  essential.

Citizens can help protect themselves by getting involved and this does not mean you have to pack a load or brandish one or get into a rootin' tootin' heee hawww shoot out that results from male testosterone run wild. Block Watch...keep eyes on streets...call police as the more calls they get in a given area, the more they will be compelled to respond. Too many people want to place all the load on the cops these days and at the same time not do their part to help the cause. They cannot be everywhere all the time...so, if you see, or hear something that just does not look right.. Call the police!  This message as relayed by a member of the second district itself. Small things that many people see as no reason to call police often lead to the climaxes that have someone getting hurt. So, we need to start nipping in the bud that which can escalate; and to do that it helps to become familiar with circumstances that can become ugly. Involved eyes on streets can do a lot to help.

 

Your estrogen-fueled screams for assistance may help some (provided that the thug hasn't neutralized you already), but there's more than one way to skin a cat.  Like you said, the cops can't be everywhere at once.

 

Man come on with that insulting BS.  EC is right in this situation.  We have far to many people to sit back and say , "they should do....." but wont get involved themselves and that attitude is 50% of the problem in some neighborhoods.

 

Insulting?  I was just giving him a taste of his own medicine.  Not everyone who carries a gun is looking for a shootout driven by testosterone.  :roll:

327, I agree, it is rediculous and they should absolutley have them. All I'm saying id that if you want them to be there on the City Dime, and not a private-public partnership like DCA, the residents and business owners of those areas need to voice that to their area elected officials, cuz otherwise, it aint gonna happen.

 

Disclaimer, I have no problem informing the taxpayers of a service in which I perform for them, but I am in NO way a spokesperson for the CPD or CPPA

Citizens can help protect themselves by getting involved and this does not mean you have to pack a load or brandish one or get into a rootin' tootin' heee hawww shoot out that results from male testosterone run wild. Block Watch...keep eyes on streets...call police as the more calls they get in a given area, the more they will be compelled to respond. Too many people want to place all the load on the cops these days and at the same time not do their part to help the cause. They cannot be everywhere all the time...so, if you see, or hear something that just does not look right.. Call the police!  This message as relayed by a member of the second district itself. Small things that many people see as no reason to call police often lead to the climaxes that have someone getting hurt. So, we need to start nipping in the bud that which can escalate; and to do that it helps to become familiar with circumstances that can become ugly. Involved eyes on streets can do a lot to help.

 

Your estrogen-fueled screams for assistance may help some (provided that the thug hasn't neutralized you already), but there's more than one way to skin a cat.  Like you said, the cops can't be everywhere at once.

 

Well, if you want to live life gripped in the fear of what 95% of the time will not happen anyway.....that is totally your prerogative, and I respect that..but I chose to not live that way. No need for the insults either. I would rather adhere to the philosophy that lets our brains do the thinking...not our balls, and I reserve that right to be evolved.

 

Get real, you're the one that started with the insults.  This is not about "fear," it's about precaution.  If you think the overburdened cops are going to be able to prevent you or your grandmother from being the victim of a violent crime, 95% of the time you're going to be disappointed.

 

I'm not arguing that your block watch idea is a bad one, it can and does work.  But it's not the end-all, be-all, and ultimately YOU, personally, are responsible for your own safety.  There may not be anyone else around, whether it be a cop or neighbor, when the thugs that some wanted in the neighborhood for diversity purposes decides that they want your car or wallet.

ogibbigo I think we're of the same mind on this stuff... I'd also note that, at least in Mike Polensek's ward, both the CPD and the prosecutor's office have people at the monthly ward meetings.  They provide a lot of info and are open to all questions and suggestions.  I would hope that this is the case all over the city, but I haven't been to meetings in every ward.

let's cool it down or we'll lock the thread.

""Why don't you want to incarcerate  violent criminals?"

 

Sir, this is not what I sad AT ALL..

'

 

Of course it wasn't.  I just said that to bait you-surprised you took it.

I was stopped at a red light on east 55th and a cop was next to me in the turning lane. The intersection was full but with no cross traffic so the police speeds up pulls into my lane goes through the red light drives fast on the dotted line inbetween the two lanes going north and then gets stuck by traffic and calms down and starts going with the flow of traffic. I was like what the hell was that!

I was stopped at a red light on east 55th and a cop was next to me in the turning lane. The intersection was full but with no cross traffic so the police speeds up pulls into my lane goes through the red light drives fast on the dotted line inbetween the two lanes going north and then gets stuck by traffic and calms down and starts going with the flow of traffic. I was like what the hell was that!

 

I see that quite often,  especially on Carnegie in the evening.

Folks, tedolph got himself 8 days off because he somehow missed the point that baiting/trolling and otherwise picking fights is a violation of the forum guidelines.

I will just tell you that the traffic stop is THE most efficient tactic in law enforcement, that is how 90% of all criminals are found. 

 

I agree about the traffic stops yielding more illegal goodies and goings on. I have a bit of a lengthy story below, so for those who hate my longer rants...you won't like this one...but anyone else....  Here is the story....

 

When I was in Warren, for 5 years myself and a handful of other citizens (as what is currently going on in Loraine locally) set out to curb excessive and illegal noise in the city--focusing FIRST on what we refer to as "audio terrorists" who unleash acoustic assault all hours of the day on a helpless public with their boom cars. I, for one, was hounded by this crap nearly 'round the clock to the point of it driving me insane and thought there is no way anyone should have to move because of the illegal, selfish, and indulgent obnoxious behavior of a few.

 

I and others had to thoroughly educate ourselves on this boom car phenomenon (why I give talks on it today at neighborhood associations) and the negative/dark side of the subculture to see that it is a hell of a lot more than little Johnny practicing his hobby as much of the public seems to perceive. There is a world of sold information about the boom car problem and how it is ruining communities right to reasonable peace in their own homes coast to coast, how especially dangerous low frequency coupled with high decibels and vibration is to the body, the public, and how it runs a safety risk for police, fire, and EMT vehicles at intersections---and what municipalities are doing all over to reduce this particular problem. Loraine, St. Petersburg, Gulf Port Mississippi, Chicago, and a myriad of other places, even Warren, now have cutting edge ordinances that allow for effective deterrent of this problem. All that is another story and the details can be seen at www.lowertheboom.org and www.noiselff.org

 

Anyway, what I am saying in how this is related to traffic stops is that after we had gathered information via daily news reports on this subject generated from papers across the nation via a program that searches for related articles.....and after consulting hundreds of police departments on this issue, including information straight from Warren City Municipal Court...on average, about 1 in 4 boom cars stopped for making illegal extreme raucous noise as outlined as illegal per city ordinance....yielded either guns, drugs, people driving w/o a license, or those wanted on arrest warrants...drunk driving and other illegal treasures were discovered from making stops for this alone.

 

Many police departments and officers KNOW this and get it. Many do not and it is an education process. The point is...that besides speeding, this loud booming will often lead to finding more criminals.

 

As I mentioned, about 1 in 4 cars stopped. There is world of crime to be discovered with that dead give away. In fact, just like the ice cream man jingles and dingles his bell to alert kids in the neighborhood of ice cream nearby!....the boom car thug who is roving around disturbing the neighborhood shaking people's homes off their foundations...dealing drugs, uses the booming to let it be known that drugs are available.

 

I did a 22 minute podcast about this with someone in Florida who is very knowledgeable on this issue, a former legal worker and neighborhood association president who works closely with the police department and has appeared on NPR about it.

 

You may have seen something about these issues in the last Parade Magazine. Where we are in educating the public about this is about where anti-tobacco was 40 years ago educating people about the dangers associated with smoking. It is an uphill battle.

 

Part of the problem is the fact that EPA Office on Noise Pollution Abatement was de-funded in the early 80's which eventually opened up the flood gates for virtually little to no regulation on manufactures making noise producing products and how many decibels are deemed safe/unsafe. Anyone wanting the pod-cast on this let me know.. Btw.. Making stops for this is not profiling or picking on poor kids. The problem is widespread and graces all walks of life...Additionally, anyone who spends up to $30,000 on audio equipment is hardly poor..and anyone making this much noise is profiling themselves.

Efficiency is a fine thing, so long as the job is getting done.  For the police, the job is primarily to prevent crime.  To maintain peace and order.  Obviously getting criminals off the streets helps in this regard.  But that doesn't mean traffic patrol should take precedence over guarding busy areas and preventing crimes from happening in the first place.  This is especially true in the city's nightlife districts.  I would prefer to let criminals drive around a bit than to let them prey on innocent people trying to enjoy themselves in Cleveland.

NTClass got hit again this week.

 

2 girls were out back and got held up at gunpoint.

 

This is getting absurd. 

NTClass got hit again this week.

 

2 girls were out back and got held up at gunpoint.

 

This is getting absurd. 

 

What is NTClass??  What exactly happened?

Now That's Class is a bar on Detroit at W114th.  It's cool.  My brother's band has played there a couple times.  Go back a couple pages and you'll see these attacks are becoming a pattern.  The police need to step up and do their job here.  There's no point in trying to draw young people to the city if they're going to be attacked.  At this point I'm warning my brother not to accept bookings there anymore.  He also played at Verle's once, which had been open forever, and which shut down last year because the area had become so dangerous.  The city has got to get this situation under control immediately.   

The bar owner might want to consider some security.  At the bar I work at, if some of the nearby freelance socialists trying "spreading the wealth" out back, the cops would likely be called to save the little parasites from the patrons/employees.  They know it.  They don't try it.

Other than viewing them as freelance capitalists, I agree.

Freelance socialists...that was pretty funny...

Corporate socialism and dictatorship...an unaccountable tyranny that can lead to hell too.

ya, on the front patio of ntc there's a sign saying 'please don't feed the crackheads'

if they hired security they wouldn't be able to charge $5.00 for shows.

 

I like that punk rock concert prices were never adjusted for inflation.

^the thing about ntc is that you can just sit in the bar and not pay for the "band room." that way punk cheapos can concentrate on drinking.

 

tonight is bike night there, up to $5 off your first beer if you bike there. (bicycle)

You get better sound in the bar room anyway, as long as you can fit on that lil stage.

^the thing about ntc is that you can just sit in the bar and not pay for the "band room." that way punk cheapos can concentrate on drinking.

 

tonight is bike night there, up to $5 off your first beer if you bike there. (bicycle)

 

$5 off your FIRST beer? how much is a beer? sounds like some kind of clip joint.

I know, but if I were the band, I'd be a little annoyed that people can come out to see me play but choose not to contribute. If I owned NTC I'd put a cover for the door. At the very least have a different price point depending on which place you plan on being in (bar/stage). I get the world-view/sentiment behind the practice, but it's a little lame, imo.

 

To get back to the crime issue, I was talking to a friend about that corner, it's always been a trouble spot because the housing located over there has always been infested with dealers. A bunch of kids playing punk are easy targets. I know hiring CPD would go against the punk attitude, but it's not helping the business to have sitting ducks getting picked off by violent thugs.

the beer selection at ntc is extensive, ranging from pbr and black label ($1.50 apiece) to craft beers (which can be upwards of $5). beers are cheaper at ntc than happy dog. compare a $1.50 12 oz pbr at ntc to a $2.75 16 oz pbr at happy dog.

 

often times there is cpd presence in front of ntc and the hawk next door.

 

upping the price of admission would lead it to be a grog shop-esque experience (too sanitized).