I never really hung out much in the flats so perhaps that's why. When I did go down, it was mostly to the E side. The only place I've really frequented multiple times on the W bank is the former rock bottom, which I was driven to for lunch several times by a friend who liked to go there, and christie's, which I haven't been to in a few years.

 

Anyone who goes to the West Bank of the Flats knows that you avoid anything north of the bridge like the plague.  It's extremely dangerous.  Unfortunately, these guys didn't know that and it's terrible what happened.  But it's disingenuous for the news to make it seem as if all of the Flats and Downtown are unsafe for everybody because of this incident.

Does anyone know the total number of homicides in the city so far this year?

7 assaults and 2 robberies in the last 2 weeks reported. And that doesn't include the one from this story (too new to show up I suppose).

 

Where are the sensationalist news stories about these other assaults and robberies?????????????  Are those victims not worthy of Action News' attention?

there are several lakeview terrace buildings on the east side of 25th... walking on 25th north of the bridge is practically walking right through the middle of the projects.

 

Not practically, it is walking through the middle.  Lakeview Terrace is one of the largest & worst CMHA properties in the city, definitely the worst on the West side.  It's a "family estate" which means it has school age children, but it's bad for gangs & drugs, not bedbugs.  The nature & layout of the property makes it difficult to police.  Multiple offers were made by private developers in the 90's and early 2000's to buy this property up and redevelop it but the question was always "where would all those people go?" 

 

The buildings themselves are not suitable for reuse as anything.  They were built in depression area as temporary housing and have long outlived their useful lives.  They have been modified and renovated as much as they can be, but in the next 5 yrs I think we'll see a plan to redevelop this the same as what's been done at Valley View/Tremont Point, Arbor Park/Longwood, Garden Valley, and other Hope 6 mixed income projects.  The city needs it and the residents need it.  These old dense developments of public housing become a magnet for crime & drugs.  Unfortunately some mental giants designated the site a historic landmark, which will make redevelopment even more difficult.

 

..."stepping off soapbox"...

The point is it's not a whole lot different from the sketchy parts of E 12th/13th at night...and we're not suddenly declaring that E 12th is no longer a part of downtown.

 

Sorry, but Lakeview Terrace has much more crime than any neighborhood downtown.  I just checked crimereports.com.

 

7 assaults and 2 robberies in the last 2 weeks reported.  And that doesn't include the one from this story (too new to show up I suppose).

 

E. 9th St. to E. 15th St. from Euclid Ave. up to Superior Ave., spanning a much larger area, had 1 assault and 1 robbery in the same time period.  These trends hold up for some other date ranges I checked.

 

I meant no different in terms of a known dicey area within a neighborhood.  I wasn't comparing the severity of it.

 

Several people are upset the article referenced the flats, as if Lakeview Estates is not a part of the flats.  I am telling you it's a part of the flats...there's only 1 direction you can walk from there without any major resistance and that's down the hill toward the river.  It's just as much a part of the flats as E13th and Payne is a part of downtown...a part of the neighborhood you should generally avoid.

 

Except of course of election days when I have to vote there.

there are several lakeview terrace buildings on the east side of 25th... walking on 25th north of the bridge is practically walking right through the middle of the projects.

 

Not practically, it is walking through the middle.  Lakeview Terrace is one of the largest & worst CMHA properties in the city, definitely the worst on the West side.  It's a "family estate" which means it has school age children, but it's bad for gangs & drugs, not bedbugs.  The nature & layout of the property makes it difficult to police.  Multiple offers were made by private developers in the 90's and early 2000's to buy this property up and redevelop it but the question was always "where would all those people go?" 

 

The buildings themselves are not suitable for reuse as anything.  They were built in depression era and have long outlived their useful lives.  They have been modified and renovated as much as they can be, but in the next 5 yrs I think we'll see a plan to redevelop this the same as what's been done at Valley View/Tremont Point, Arbor Park/Longwood, Garden Valley, and other Hope 6 mixed income projects.  The city needs it and the residents need it.  These old dense developments of public housing become a magnet for crime & drugs.  Unfortunately some mental giants designated the site a historic landmark, which will make redevelopment even more difficult.

 

..."stepping off soapbox"...

Where are the sensationalist news stories about these other assaults and robberies?????????????  Are those victims not worthy of Action News' attention?

 

"Entire crews pass not makin the news flash"

- The Roots, "Episodes"

 

It's a well-known phenomenon.

Several people are upset the article referenced the flats, as if Lakeview Estates is not a part of the flats.

 

Well, technically it's Ohio City.  It sure isn't Downtown as the news story hinted.  And I would argue that it absolutely is not the Flats (which overlaps with official city neighborhood definitions).  The Flats are the flat areas in the river valley.  This is up the hill from the river valley.  Thus, not the Flats.

Multiple offers were made by private developers in the 90's and early 2000's to buy this property up and redevelop it but the question was always "where would all those people go?"

 

So crime in our city is a problem, and a place like Lakeview Terrace is simply adding to it, yet this is our concern?  Sorry to sound heartless, but it's clear that many people living there simply don't respect their surroundings and are abusing their beneficial location to ruin some of Cleveland's best attractions.  Honestly, I don't really care where most of them go, as long as it's far away from the city's assets.  It simply no longer makes sense to have those people living there.

The question was not a heartless one, more of a logistic one.  Like it or not, there are over 2,000 people living there, close to 3,000 if you included the high rise building.  It's not an easy task to relocate that many folks.  Even if you sent half to other CMHA estates and half to single family homes through the Section 8 program, that's still a HUGE undertaking.

 

And to be fair, not everyone in the place is a criminal.  Many folks are very appreciative to be living there and want to see the thugs removed just as badly as us folks who are merely driving by occasionally...

And to be fair, not everyone in the place is a criminal. Many folks are very appreciative to be living there and want to see the thugs removed just as badly as us folks who are merely driving by occasionally...

 

As much as most of us would like to see it, I would say that the law-abiding folks living there want to see the criminals removed far worse than any of us who drive by occasionally.

Several people are upset the article referenced the flats, as if Lakeview Estates is not a part of the flats.

 

Well, technically it's Ohio City.  It sure isn't Downtown as the news story hinted.  And I would argue that it absolutely is not the Flats (which overlaps with official city neighborhood definitions).  The Flats are the flat areas in the river valley.  This is up the hill from the river valley.  Thus, not the Flats.

 

Parts of Lakeview Terrace are in the flat areas of the river valley.  The parking lot for some of the units are directly across the street from Mulberry's at the corner of Main and Mulberry St.  I frequently see kids who live in the units out playing when I walk my dog...and I don't ever walk up any hills.

 

We're these people who got attacked in the flat area of the river valley?  No.  But they were in what I would consider the Flats West Bank neighborhood, which is confined by the river to the North and East, security fence to the west (guarding treatment plant/stone quarry/shipyard), and Detroit Rd to the South.  Especially now with the swing bridge closed, there are only 2 points of entry into the Flats West Bank.  1 of which takes you right through the housing complex.

The question was not a heartless one, more of a logistic one.  Like it or not, there are over 2,000 people living there, close to 3,000 if you included the high rise building.  It's not an easy task to relocate that many folks.  Even if you sent half to other CMHA estates and half to single family homes through the Section 8 program, that's still a HUGE undertaking.

 

And to be fair, not everyone in the place is a criminal.  Many folks are very appreciative to be living there and want to see the thugs removed just as badly as us folks who are merely driving by occasionally...

 

And there are certainly some who fall into a third category, where they're not criminals, but they turn a blind eye and have become accepting (for whatever reason) to the criminal behavior.  Relocation may not be an easy task, but it's something that the city and CMHA need to make a priority.  And in my opinion, we need less Section 8 in this region, not more, so that should be a last resort.

^exactly

"Don't be a snitch" category.

The point is it's not a whole lot different from the sketchy parts of E 12th/13th at night...and we're not suddenly declaring that E 12th is no longer a part of downtown.

 

I still don't get the point. E 12th is part of downtown. W 25th is not. I would, however, argue that this part of W 25th is indeed different than E 12th/13th at night. I would and have walked down those two streets at night (staying mindful of surrounding of course). I would never venture into Lakeview Terraces at night..... or during the day for that matter.

 

I always liked the architecture of these places, a wierd 1930's/1940's vision of the future. I like the site as well with views going down the hill. I wonder if they would make a good market rate garden style apartment complex for normal people.

 

I am going to report you to the local PC Board in Seattle for that one.

 

Ha ha.  I wondered who was going to catch that.  Good job HTS!

>for normal people.

 

Perfectly fine descriptor of law abiding citizens. 

 

We cannot continue to play the race card and expect to make progress. 

 

That development is a hole that needs to be razed.  Another example of great city planning killing prime real estate.

In defense of the times... that development went in I believe in the 30's.  In the 30's...  That wasn't prime real estate.  That was the industrial dregs, where no "normal people" would have wanted to live. Fast forward 80 years... and well... hands are a little tied.

^Agreed.  In fact, still today, I would say that is not 'prime real estate' due to the surroundings notwithstanding the public housing.  Anything built there would essentially be constructed on a hill overlooking the industrial site between that land and Whiskey Island.  It would be nice if the public housing weren't there due to the inevitable blight it causes to the neighborhoods to the south on the West Bank, but I am not sure how this land, even if cleared, would be all that appealing to a developer.  Not saying there wouldn't be and hasn't been interest.

 

>for normal people.

 

Perfectly fine descriptor of law abiding citizens. 

 

We cannot continue to play the race card and expect to make progress. 

 

Translation?  Is there some sort of correlation between race and 'law abiding citizens' which is relevant to this discussion?

We cannot continue to play the race card and expect to make progress.

 

This. Nobody said that the housing projects were race-restricted. There are poor folks of all races. They all have an equal propensity to commit crimes, especially when you concentrate them all in one area.

 

Fast forward 80 years... and well... hands are a little tied.

 

This is what I don't understand. What perpetuates these housing projects? Is CMHA some kind of organization that is above the law? Do they have no accountability to the people? How is it that we can have massive housing projects right next to emerging neighborhoods? is this seen as a desirable policy position?

its not a "policy position"... its just that it's well... already there.  CMHA isn't going to sell it, "just because".  Whatever opinion is on the people who live there... they live there. If CMHA were to sell they would need to relocate those people.  Where is the land to build that development.  How much will that land cost.  How much will the new construction cost.  What price does CMHA need to get for the currently land to make all this justifiable, and how does that cost affect the viability of the developer obtaining land, building new construction and how would those costs translate into acceptable "market rate" prices per unit.

 

In the end, it comes down to what it always comes down to...  $$$.

 

It's not policy, it's economic viability.

^did you know that Mayor Jackson's grandfather was the guy who selected this location for CMHA? ;)

its not a "policy position"... its just that it's well... already there. CMHA isn't going to sell it, "just because". Whatever opinion is on the people who live there... they live there. If CMHA were to sell they would need to relocate those people. Where is the land to build that development. How much will that land cost. How much will the new construction cost. What price does CMHA need to get for the currently land to make all this justifiable, and how does that cost affect the viability of the developer obtaining land, building new construction and how would those costs translate into acceptable "market rate" prices per unit.

 

In the end, it comes down to what it always comes down to... $$$.

 

It's not policy, it's economic viability.

 

What?!  I don't believe you!  I want someone to press the magic "move public housing projects" button, and I want them to press it now!

I've been digging around for that button for some time.  I haven't found it yet, but I am still looking.  :)

I still wonder if anything can't be done from a policy standpoint. A single-bedroom HVCP voucher is worth about $50,000 in home improvements. I'd surmise that this is enough to rehab a single foreclosed house. Jesus, a lot of those homes have 3 or more bedrooms, and then your guaranteed rent goes up to $900/mo.

 

We're left with the chicken and the egg problem. If we close the towers first, where do the people go? If we rehab the foreclosures first, who will rent the house?

 

I'd surmise that CHMA itself could get a bank loan with a solid business plan if it planned to populate the homes with tenants they already have. Of course, that would mean more work for those with a pretty narrow mandate that is already being satisfied adequately.

"What?!  I don't believe you!  I want someone to press the magic "move public housing projects" button, and I want them to press it now! "

 

Now we are talking!

 

The chicken and egg problem is correct.  It's also a much bigger management problem trying to deal with scattered site single family housing but considering the stock of these types of properties in the city it would be plausible but most likely not economically feasible.

its not a "policy position"... its just that it's well... already there. CMHA isn't going to sell it, "just because". Whatever opinion is on the people who live there... they live there. If CMHA were to sell they would need to relocate those people. Where is the land to build that development. How much will that land cost. How much will the new construction cost. What price does CMHA need to get for the currently land to make all this justifiable, and how does that cost affect the viability of the developer obtaining land, building new construction and how would those costs translate into acceptable "market rate" prices per unit.

 

In the end, it comes down to what it always comes down to... $$$.

 

It's not policy, it's economic viability.

 

Well, if one-way Greyhound tickets aren't an option, I suppose we could find some vacant land somewhere in this city that is now holding close to a third of the population it once held at its peak.

I'm not sure I would want them to move the public housing.  It might be put in a more unfavorable location, like say.......... EUCLID AVENUE.

I'm not sure I would want them to move the public housing.  It might be put in a more unfavorable location, like say.......... EUCLID AVENUE.

 

I don't propose we build a new building, but instead sink some money into rehabilitating old neighborhoods. Given the fact that those apartment buildings almost certainly have substantial market value, and the foreclosed homes do not, this potential project could be a wash or even a boon costwise. Pipe dream, though, at least until I can accumulate some capital and some clout.

I'm not sure I would want them to move the public housing. It might be put in a more unfavorable location, like say.......... EUCLID AVENUE.

 

I don't propose we build a new building, but instead sink some money into rehabilitating old neighborhoods. Given the fact that those apartment buildings almost certainly have substantial market value, and the foreclosed homes do not, this potential project could be a wash or even a boon costwise. Pipe dream, though, at least until I can accumulate some capital and some clout.

 

I was being facetious - see the Midtown thread.

Just an observation...

 

A friend of mine recently bought a condo at the Painter Lofts near W. 85th on Franklin Ave.  We were on the roof of the building checking out the view and saw 3 kids (18-23 years old) dressed in all black with black hats on "scoping" out our cars.  They eventually looked up and saw us watching them and they suspiciously walked away.  I got to my car about 10 minutes later and called the cops to give them a heads up and they told me there have been a lot of car break-ins in that area lately.

 

Nothing to report, just disheartening to see it live and to know that someone's car has probably been broken into in that neighborhood (but let's hope not).

I didn't know where to put this. I saw the bomb squad car, truck and van drive by in the cleveland state area today. They passed it and i couldn't see where they were going. Anyone know what was going on

Some details about this story would have been nice, such as who owns the property and who was arrested (ID the top five with the most charges, etc).

 

EDIT: it's a vacant industrial/warehouse property that's been owned since 1988 by Raymond Abdallah of Westlake according to the Cuyahoga County Auditor's website. That took me a mere five minutes to search....

 

 

30 arrested at after-hours club on Superior Avenue

Published: Saturday, August 28, 2010, 1:02 PM  

Diane Suchetka, The Plain Dealer

 

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Cleveland police vice officers arrested 30 people for various offenses early Saturday morning after executing a search warrant at what they called an after-hours club at 3020 Superior Ave.

 

Police entered the club at about 3:45 a.m., according to a spokesman, and made arrests for violation of liquor and drug laws, gambling, strip dancing and a weapons offense.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/08/30_arrested_at_after-hours_clu.html

Haha.... I was wondering when the police were going to catch up with these types of operations.  I had heard about this 10 years ago.  Anyone ever wonder what happened to the black strip clubs in the City?  This is it.  They all went underground.  The girls have no rules, the "Johns" have no rules, the club has no 'last call', and, of course, gambling is welcomed.

^Sounds like a fun place!  Alcohol, drugs, gambling and stripping.  Dang... just a little piece of Vegas in Cleveland, Ohio!

Incubators for bigger problems once they go home...IF they go home.

^Sounds like a fun place!  Alcohol, drugs, gambling and stripping.  Dang... just a little piece of Vegas in Cleveland, Ohio!

 

^Sounds like a fun place!  Alcohol, drugs, gambling and stripping and prostitution.  Dang... just a little piece of Vegas in Cleveland, Ohio!

 

I am going to assume that their IS 'sex in the champagne room' at these 'clubs'

^Sounds like a fun place!  Alcohol, drugs, gambling and stripping and prostitution.  Dang... just a little piece of Vegas in Cleveland, Ohio!

 

I am going to assume that their IS 'sex in the champagne room' at these 'clubs'

 

Aiight Chris Rock.  LOL

Honestly, I'd never wondered what happened to the black strip clubs in Cleveland.  We could put these places out of business by pushing back last call at legal joints, though.  Even better, eliminate state mandated last call all together.

I didn't know where to put this. I saw the bomb squad car, truck and van drive by in the cleveland state area today. They passed it and i couldn't see where they were going. Anyone know what was going on

 

So does anyone know information on what i was talking about

^It may have just been a drill.

 

^^Honestly, we could not put theses places out of business by pushing back last call at legal joints.  Being open after-hours is just one of the several illegal activities these businesses specialize in.... if this is, indeed, the type of operation I have heard of.  Imagine a place where you can bet on cards, smoke a cigarrette, get a lap dance (or more), and order a drink all at the same time..... with the lappy and the drink being provided at below market value.  You ain't finding that action in any of the legal joints around here, regardless of when last call happens. 

Maybe, maybe not.  If people are at the legal place, they aren't at the illegal joint.  You don't need to cut into all their rackets, just enough to make it all unprofitable.

Agreed.... I just don't think that is the particular racket which would make it all unprofitable.  Not even close.  But... the operation mentioned in the article might be dissimilar from the ones I have heard about in the past.  The operation I was referring to may be open after hours but that would hardly be its draw. 

The PD claims these legislators just want publicity during the election season.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/09/take-your-gun-to-work_bill_is.html

 

Take-your-gun-to-work bill is cynical Ohio electioneering: editorial

...edit...

The bill would force an employer to let an employee with a concealed-handgun permit store his or her handgun in a locked personal motor vehicle parked on the employer's property. The prime sponsor of this startling anti-business, anti-safety mandate is a suburban Cincinnati Republican, Rep. Joseph Uecker.

 

Ohio employers can already do what this bill would force all of them to do. Antics such as these are why Columbus politicking nauseates more and more voters, and why employers -- job creators in an Ohio desperate for jobs -- must sometimes wonder whose side state lawmakers really are on.

 

^ I would think twice about moving a business to Ohio, if that silly law were passed. What a joke! So much for Republicans being the "pro-business" party.

^^I suppose the Ohio Republicans' next move is going to be to tell me, as a private property owner, that I am obligated to allow the guests to carry guns at my son's birthday party...

There is a gun rights group in Ohio with a web page bragging about all the businesses that they badgered into removing their "no concealed weapons" placards.  It was a lot of businesses.

^^ I suppose you feel the same way about off-duty police officers carrying their guns anywhere they please? If your guest is a police officer, you can't say mum to them.

 

I'm tired of people making police officers out to be above the law. Many of those guys are very poorly trained on their firearms when compared to the average gun enthusiast. Either allow everyone the same rights or restrict the unreasonable special dispensation we give to police officers.

 

I don't at all mind a private property owner dictating the terms of their invitation, but we seem to always ignore those who hide behind the badge or the state when it comes to discussing the extent property rights.

^^ I suppose you feel the same way about off-duty police officers carrying their guns anywhere they please? If your guest is a police officer, you can't say mum to them.

 

The hell I can't.  I don't care if George Washington himself came back from the dead... he ain't getting on MY property if armed.  He better have a warrant or other lawful excuse to be there... or else his invitation is rescinded and he is getting a firm kick in the arse if not walking the other way fast enough.

^ Yeah, police officer or not, you're well within your rights to not allow people on your property for whatever reason you want.

 

Not to mention off duty police officers are only allowed to carry weapons b/c they have obtained their license, which is available to regular citizens as well.