True, but Ted isn't putting out music about how much he loves shooting people. He shoots ANIMALS and TARGETS. And he eats animals that are killed, I'm pretty sure. I'm certainly no big fan of Ted Nugent, but it's just not a good comparison.

True, but Ted isn't putting out music about how much he loves shooting people. He shoots ANIMALS and TARGETS. And he eats animals that are killed, I'm pretty sure. I'm certainly no big fan of Ted Nugent, but it's just not a good comparison.

 

So when he said "Obama's a piece of shit, and I told him to suck on my machine gun" that wasn't a glorification of gun violence?

No.  He just wants to put his machine gun in the mouth of the President and Secretary of State

 

Ted Nugent goes OFF on Obama in California

 

Point is, either way, the glorification of guns is an issue.  We, as a nation, have to let go of our wild, wild west mentality.

 

EDIT: JJ beat me to it.

Oy Ted. Like I said, not a fan of Ted or his music, or his obsession with guns, and his comment was obviously stupid. I do think there's a slight difference between what he said and if he had said "women are all bitches and whores (sorry, "hos") and when I go clubbing, I always have my 9 on me so I can take other people out. Again, not holding Ted up as some paragon of, well, anything, but I don't think most of his popular music is about degrading women and shooting people, is it?

And I totally agree with your last statement, Hts. We need to let go of the wild west and the gun obsession.

Oy Ted. Like I said, not a fan of Ted or his music, or his obsession with guns, and his comment was obviously stupid. I do think there's a slight difference between what he said and if he had said "women are all bitches and whores (sorry, "hos") and when I go clubbing, I always have my 9 on me so I can take other people out. Again, not holding Ted up as some paragon of, well, anything, but I don't think most of his popular music is about degrading women and shooting people, is it?

 

I agree.

 

If you want to fix hip-hop, look to the record labels.  There's plenty of good hip-hop out there, but the labels have deemed that the crap is what will sell the best, so that's what they push onto the radio, and inevitably (thanks to the exposure) it is what ends up selling the best.

And fortunately we are not really having to deal with a series of clubs that are catering to the mindset of the Ted Nuggent/lyrics/crowd..  At least not that I know of in the urban settings of Cleveland.  Maybe in some backwoods place where it isn't affecting as many other people though.   

 

Yes OK, I would be just as prejudice of something like that...

I don't mind Ted's use of guns, but even I have to agree, what he said about Obama was stupid, because he might give some idiot the idea to take him up on it!  Sort of Hoffa like!

Sure, JJ.... blame it all on "the Man" ;)

 

Personally, I blame the parents that let their children buy and listen to the songs that say "kidz, don't be like me..... BUT, if you ain't poppin' and moving pounds, you ain't sh!t cause that's what I did."

I don't mind Ted's use of guns, but even I have to agree, what he said about Obama was stupid, because he might give some idiot the idea to take him up on it!  Sort of Hoffa like!

 

Ted is a hypocrite.  He wants you to tote a gun...but try taking one to his shows.  Metal detectors protect Ted a the door.  So much for practicing what he preaches.

Alright folks, let's get back on topic.

I was searching for info on this place and came across the following article:

 

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:hZE9BnoHEZgJ:www.plainpress.org/html/stories/2008-11/envyfightsforsurvival.htm+envy+lounge+cleveland&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

The link from Google search didn't work, but the cached version was still available.

 

It's hard to believe the place is still open.  I'll bet it closes down real soon now.

 

Interesting find, thanks.  That article appears to be from Nov 2008, and Miskin mentioned in it that he had 3 years left on his lease.  That should mean his lease term is ending soon, which would be a pretty tidy, uncontroversial way for MRN to put someone new in that space.

^three years or six years (from 2008)? The way the article is written its not very clear:

 

"Miskin claims his sublease for the property remains in effect for an additional three years subsequent to his exercise of his renewal option in September and that he has an option to renew for an additional three years at the conclusion of the current term."

^Oops, I guess I didn't read so closely.  Thanks for the correction.  If it's a true tenant option, the landlord (or sublandlord) will need find some reason to evict.

What the heck is going on?

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/09/a_16-year-old_youth_shot_in_th.html

 

Three arrested after 16-year-old shot in the head on Cleveland's West Side

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio - Police arrested three men Monday afternoon after a 16-year-old youth was shot in the head on Cleveland's West Side.

The teen, whose name has not been released, was taken to MetroHealth Medical Center by EMS. His condition is unknown at this time.

I'm sure a rap song will come out glorifying such atrocities....making it look cool! Then, a vigil will held for the killer because he was starting to get his life back together! WTF?  Uh oh...cannot have that opinion here, in this wonderful democracy.

Federal grant will allow the city of Cleveland to recall 25 police officers

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Cleveland will rehire 25 police officers laid off in June using a federal grant of $5.8 million the city received Wednesday.

 

The 25 officers should be back in uniform by the end of October, said Sgt. Sammy Morris, spokesperson for the Cleveland Police Department. The grant is for three years and once it runs out the officers' salaries would be added to the city's payroll.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/09/federal_grant_will_allow_the_c.html

Very sad,,,I truly hope my post is "off topic" and not crime related:

 

My friend called off work today and tomorrow to look for this guy, who is a family friend of his:

 

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/more-than-100-people-turn-out-to-search-for-missing-richmond-heights-man

Federal grant will allow the city of Cleveland to recall 25 police officers

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Cleveland will rehire 25 police officers laid off in June using a federal grant of $5.8 million the city received Wednesday.

 

The 25 officers should be back in uniform by the end of October, said Sgt. Sammy Morris, spokesperson for the Cleveland Police Department. The grant is for three years and once it runs out the officers' salaries would be added to the city's payroll.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/09/federal_grant_will_allow_the_c.html

 

Great news! 

Article from earlier this month.

 

Murders in Cleveland down this year, more violence among young people

 

CLEVELAND - This time last year, there were 54 murders in Cleveland. So far this year, there are four less.

Felonious assaults without guns are also down slightly. However, felonious assaults with firearms are up more than 9 percent from the same time last year.

 

Police said they blame the majority of the gun violence that is happening in Cleveland and in cities across the country on young people. The trend shows the ages of victims and suspects are getting younger every year.

 

 

Read more: http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/Murders-in-Cleveland-down-this-year-more-violence-among-young-people#ixzz1ZS54yhus

Very sad,,,I truly hope my post is "off topic" and not crime related:

 

My friend called off work today and tomorrow to look for this guy, who is a family friend of his:

 

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/more-than-100-people-turn-out-to-search-for-missing-richmond-heights-man

 

This guy was found safe in Canada.  Apparently, he went there on his own free will.  No reason given, but I can't imagine there is a good one.  I can think of a hundred reasons why he might have went, and none of them are good. 

 

I feel bad for all those volunteers who braved the weather to poster the entire region with lamenated color signs, like the one I saw at Geraci's on Saturday.  I feel worse for his family.

Gun fires Sunday in the food court at Tower City

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A 24-year-old Cleveland man accused of firing a gun Sunday afternoon in Tower City is charged with carrying a concealed weapon.

 

Lennard Hubbard will be arraigned Tuesday morning in Cleveland Municipal Court.

 

According to the police report:

 

Hubbard, of East 72nd Street, said he had the .38-caliber, five-shot revolver for protection and it "accidentally discharged after he dropped it."

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/10/cleveland_mans_gun_fires_sunda.html

So he dropped a gun he didn't have a license to hold and has a record?  Be more careful with the soap, Lennard.

Officials to announce new programs aimed at reducing gun violence in Cleveland

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Federal, state and local law enforcement agencies will announce a new gun violence program this afternoon targeting repeat offenders.

 

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson, U.S. Attorney Steven Dettelbach, Cleveland Police Chief Michael McGrath and the heads of the local FBI and ATF offices will discuss the "V-Grip" program at a 4 p.m. news conference at East 55th Street and Woodland Avenue in Cleveland.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/10/officials_to_announce_new_prog.html

So he dropped a gun he didn't have a license to hold and has a record?  Be more careful with the soap, Lennard.

And had bags of weed in his pocket all at the same time.  Not good.  The sad thing is this bullet could have hit and killed someone.  The scarier thing is, he obviusly just went to buy weed, or was planning on selling some, with the gun in his pocket.  That also could have turned out bad. 

One thing I have always taken issue with is how nightclubs and bars simply push the troublemakers out the door to shed blood on the street.  When I worked security in college, we were trained to simply get the fight as far away from the club as possible and anything that went on from there was none of our business, nor were we to make it any of our business.  Club owners also have an interest in minimizing police responses, so calling the cops to de-escalate the situation is not a preferred option.  You make money off these folks getting them all rowdy and liqoured up, and then you just release them to the public streets to cause mayhem.

 

I've been doing this for almost a decade, and getting them outside is indeed a priority.  After that, well you're not trained for it and you're not paid for it.  Plus, a fight inside the bar makes another fight that night about ten times more likely.  The cops prefer that too.  They'd rather deal with them outside (where they have more options) and they're not all that keen about de-escalating things that aren't an obvious problem yet.

 

Two things though:

 

1)  Clubs where the "bouncers" are basically getting paid to beat up troublemakers attract their own problems (the Saddle Ridge used to be notorious for this), but usually if you see the signs you're doing your own de-escalization.  90% of guys don't actually want to fight, but won't be seen backing down without an excuse.  You provide that excuse.  Women, on the other hand, will do their damndest to actually fight once they face off.

 

2)  Most clubs will bar "problem children" if they cause enough problems.  There's your other ten percent.

 

3)  If one side is the obvious problem, only kick them out. 

 

As far as the nature of your clientele, there's some things you can do (music in the jukebox or played by the DJ, types of alcohol served, etc..) but you have to be careful with that....

Been spending more time in Gordon Square area as my forays into a return to the theater world creep back in. Have spent several nights eating and drinking at XYZ or Happy Dog and am looking forward to Spice of Life's restaurant opening.

 

Last night at XYZ I ended up next to an older couple, empty nesters, who were friendly and open to chatting, which I appreciated as a lone person dining at the bar (prior to going to a show, more on that later). They were asking how my dessert was, and then we talked about Sweet Moses and how great the neighborhood has become with all the restaurants and such. Evaluated food at a few places. I shared an anectode to show how much it appears to have changed for me, from way back in the late 90s when some actor friends of mine were held up at gunpoint just outside a convenience store while on a rehearsal break and it seems much better than it used to. They said there is still some crime but they have left their garage door open accidentally while gone on a weekend and nothing has happened, they walk everywhere, etc. and asked where I lived and I said by the airport, and then added that we have a 2 year old toddler. Their tone completely changed - yeah, we wouldn't live here with kids, we are empty nesters, I wouldn't feel safe having my kids walk around here at night alone, and there's not that much here for kids to do, etc. I thought it was interesting and wanted to share with my UO folks to keep the awareness of how locations like this are perceived to be for families, even by people who love the neighborhood and have lived there for 8 years. Maybe these neighborhoods (meaning downtown and surrounding such as OC, Gordon Square, Asiatown, Tremont) aren't trying to attract families, but I think until they install things that do, the revitalization of these neighbhoods will not be as successful as they could be.

 

I went on to the show, which was at a space I've driven by 100 times and never knew about called Oboe, on Lake near W 83rd - between the BK and Don's Lighthouse. I think a guy lives in the upstairs and the downstairs used to be an art gallery but they cleaned it up and put a small stage in it for the show. There was no bathroom (well, there was, but it apparently wasn't clean) so I went out at the 10 minute intermission to try to find somewhere to pee. BK was locked, they close at 8. Same thing for McDonald's. I finally went back to XYZ, parked and ran in and used the pot and managed to get back before intermission was over. what kind of neighborhood is this if the dining room closes at 8 at fast food restaurants?

 

We went to a bar after the show, some hole in the wall I have never heard of, a cute little place called Mcsomthingorothers, can't remember exactly. Unfortunately, as it is a small neighborhood bar they have apparently decided to ignore the smoking ban. There were several people smoking in there and I got a HORRIBLE headache and had to leave after barely finishing my first drink. I will never go back in that place if I can help it. There was some type of bars on the windows store next door that the actors referred to as "murder central," they said 5 people have been killed in there in the last year or so. I don't know if ANY of this is true at all, but I tell you overall, between what the XYZ GS neighborhood people said, the locked up restaurants, the smoke-filled bar and the murderous convenience store, I went home feeling much more disappointed about the neighborhood than when I arrived at XYZ for dinner.

 

Am I underestimating the roughness of the neighborhood? Does there continue to be that much crime? Is it really a place that's not very good for families? I thought maybe you all would be able to give me an accurate picture. Not that we're considering moving there, but I do make recommendations for people here and there, and especially for restaurants or what have you, and knowing how dangerous or safe a hood really is would be helpful.

I actually am moving there in the next two weeks and i can tell you this:  The neighborhood north of detroit before you get to Battery Park has tons of kids in it, most seem lower-mid income families.  When i see them, they arent causing trouble...they are playing outside.  While you are I may not want to raise kids there...many are.  I wouldnt venture west of the lake/detroit intersection partly because there is nothing good going on over there.  Crime is still in the area, that is no mystery.  I am very in touch with the neighborhood, and i havent heard of multiple murders at one place.  One can avoid being a victim by displaying a little common sense.  There are places to go and places not to go.  Its a gentrifying area and is not going to be as safe as a suburb for probably a long time.  Same with OC, same with Tremont.  Continue to fight a good fight is the key and until a critical mass of folks keeps filling in the westside, its going to be like that.  But to answer your question, Detroit/West 65th is not necessarily "rough", but within a mile from there you have to be careful.  I bike everywhere and feel safe doing so...but If i go to OC, i take Franklin, not Detroit.  I wouldnt stop coming to the neighborhood, I'll tell you that much.

Oh, I have no intention of stopping going to the neighborhood, and am pretty good at taking care of myself, being aware of my surroundings, not doing anything dumb, but other women aren't always as aware and careful as I am.

 

 

^I would say the immediate neighborhood area is significantly better than the 90's...however there are still sketch areas nearby...and because of that you will see some goofballs wander through every now and then.  It is what it is.  I do know that all of the businesses in the neighborhood have pitched in to have more patrolling and keep the neighborhood safe.

I saw good street police presence when there, I think they could use some foot patrol or something similar to the DCA there.

R&R you were at McNamara's Public House. It's a favorite among the boating crowd at Edgewater Marina. I've always been fascinated by bars that don't do any form of advertising. Anyhow, I'm with you. I'm not going to stay at a place that's filled with cigarette smoke.

 

There have been, in fact, murders at the Edgewater Deli next door:

 

http://realneo.us/back-to-cleveland-killing

 

Not to be too much of a cynic...but is there a good neighborhood in Cleveland that doesn't border a bad one?

yes, that's where we were!

I don't live in Cleveland anymore, but I do notice the improvements in Gordan Square over the last several years during my frequent trips back into town. That being said the area still has a long ways to go. Once you get west of Lake Avenue or go south towards Lorain Avenue the area appears to be ghetto. There are also a lot of holes in the urban fabric both east and west of the square which need to be filled in to create more of a cohesive environment. Traveling west on Detroit past Lake Avenue appears to be a wasteland that looks like much of the East Side ghettos until you get to W. 110th (where it gets dramatically better). North of Gordan Square is obviously much nicer and feels pretty safe to me. Until the area between Lake Avenue and Edgewater/Lakewood is addressed I think Gordan Square will be held back from hitting its full potential.

 

I would have to disagree with those people who said there is nothing in the neighborhood for kids. There is nothing lacking in terms of activities that makes it any less interesting than a typical suburb for a child. Obviously I think there are safety concerns around there that may be a problem at this time. However, I would not expect even a fully gentrified Gordan Square (along with Cleveland's other improving neighborhoods) to grow by attracting families since the city schools are so bad. I live in Chicago, and even the hyper-yuppie neighborhoods like Lincoln Park do not have many kids because the city schools are horrible and people do not stay around when their children reach school age. The only kids you usually see are those attending private schools who presumably have upper class parents that can afford these schools along with the local housing costs. Trendy urban neighborhoods in this country are generally made up of singles, empty nesters, and DINKs because urban school districts are bad everywhere.

 

R&R you were at McNamara's Public House. It's a favorite among the boating crowd at Edgewater Marina. I've always been fascinated by bars that don't do any form of advertising. Anyhow, I'm with you. I'm not going to stay at a place that's filled with cigarette smoke.

 

There have been, in fact, murders at the Edgewater Deli next door:

 

http://realneo.us/back-to-cleveland-killing

 

Not to be too much of a cynic...but is there a good neighborhood in Cleveland that doesn't border a bad one?

 

Were these murders in 2005-2006?  I would venture to say the surrounding neighborhood has even come a long way since then.

R&R you were at McNamara's Public House. It's a favorite among the boating crowd at Edgewater Marina. I've always been fascinated by bars that don't do any form of advertising. Anyhow, I'm with you. I'm not going to stay at a place that's filled with cigarette smoke.

 

There have been, in fact, murders at the Edgewater Deli next door:

 

http://realneo.us/back-to-cleveland-killing

 

Not to be too much of a cynic...but is there a good neighborhood in Cleveland that doesn't border a bad one?

 

Were these murders in 2005-2006?  I would venture to say the surrounding neighborhood has even come a long way since then.

 

These numbers are probably skewed by that mass shooting up the street last year. 

 

The area immediate surrounding McManaras is still pretty rough and hasn't seen the prosperity brought by Battery Park etc.  This is why I'm a big proponent of the West Shoreway conversion--it will definitely help pull up the entire area and connect Detroit-Shoreway to Clifton-Baltic-Edgewater.

Good discussion everyone, thanks. And rustbelter, I think you're right on there about the schools, though I think some people with kids just send their kids to private and don't have to worry as much.

^ Cleveland Schools are bad, but parents need to be careful in the burbs too.  Cities such as Bay, Westlake, etc. are experiencing huge drug situations.  A Bay student was shot a couple years back in a drug deal gone wrong.  Plus, I have family in Twinsburg and they just sent my cousin to her first homecoming..its appalling what parents allow their children to wear to dances.  Im not so sure kids are immune from bad trends out there as well.  Im getting off topic, so i will get back on...

 

I think the deli murders were in 2005-2006 according to that link someone posted.  The neighborhood has changed significantly since then.

One point worth noting is some of the little private schools tucked away...  Gordon Square area has "Our Lady of Mt Carmel" which has a very nice mix of families and children, seems to be safe & wholesome.  I see the kids volunteering at the annual church events and it is a great little community back there.

Good discussion everyone, thanks. And rustbelter, I think you're right on there about the schools, though I think some people with kids just send their kids to private and don't have to worry as much.

 

In terms of young professionals with kids, the near west side has changed greatly over the past five years. There is the perception and then there is the reality. Its a different ball game now. The number of young families that are choosing to stay in the neighborhood instead of move to the burbs for better schools is growing rather rapidly. Because some of the private school options have filled up and have waiting lists, parents took things into their own hands and recruited a nationally renowned charter school (rated Excellent with Distinction) to open a second school in Ohio City. Families inside the neighborhood no longer have the opinion that schools are a barrier to staying on the near west side.

^That's really interesting.  My wife and I have an ongoing discussion about where we're going to buy a home and start a family.  I'm pushing for Ohio City, but my wife isn't convinced it's a good place to raise a family.  One of her biggest concerns is schools, but the people in Ohio City seem to be really proactive and are really trying to create a high quality inner city neighborhood. 

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/police-group-of-lincoln-west-high-school-students-brutally-beat-teen

 

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/cleveland-police%3A-14-year-old-raped-on-way-to-school

 

Not a good day for Cleveland schoolkids.  If you want to get/keep families, you can't just blow this off, excuse it, or blame the messengers.

 

Yeah, I'll take drugs over that stuff any time. I mean, there were drugs in my HS too for goodness sake, and that was 30 years ago. But nobody got raped on their way to school.

Yeah, I tried my best but I couldn't come up with any 'excuses' for mobs that attack kids or rapists.  Dang.  I certainly hope the Cleveland police will investigate these crimes and not just blow them off.  Too bad nothing was done at L-W before this to cut down on fights and set a more orderly educational atmosphere.

Yeah, I'll take drugs over that stuff any time. I mean, there were drugs in my HS too for goodness sake, and that was 30 years ago. But nobody got raped on their way to school.

 

I disagree.  I'm sure it happened, but things were not reported, nor quickly spread, as they are today.  when I was in HS, there were several "rapes" in the Shaker Lakes.  Especially the section between Shaker Blvd. and S. Woodland. 

Yeah, well that's not saying much for Shaker Lakes. Where I grew up, I can guarantee you there were no rapes of anyone walking to school or I would have heard about it. It was a very small town and news like that travels. And why did you put "rapes" in quotes like that. Are you trying to say this girl wasn't raped?

^Amy Maholovic anyone?  Kidnapped on Wolf road in Bay Village, never to be seen again.

^That's really interesting.  My wife and I have an ongoing discussion about where we're going to buy a home and start a family.  I'm pushing for Ohio City, but my wife isn't convinced it's a good place to raise a family.  One of her biggest concerns is schools, but the people in Ohio City seem to be really proactive and are really trying to create a high quality inner city neighborhood. 

 

Yes it is.  I have several relatives with children in OC or Tremont.  IIRC, there has been talk of a new High school and middle school because so many families in this area.

^^^Yeah, there was certainly never anyone raped on their way to school during my years in schoo.  There were fights on a fairly regular basis, but not of the mob variety we see too often today.  I never understood the appeal of a group of guys ganging up on someone and kicking them in the head while their on the ground.  That's just cowardly.  If you feel the need to fight someone then be a man and fight fair.

I didn't grow up in Cleveland, Believeland! Or any of it's suburbs!