^ I completely agree but this seems to be a case where you are presenting commonsense issues and many others are trying to frame it as some grand injustice.

 

What you said above is basically what I have said in private several times when discussing the issue.  The bottom line is anyone who conducted themselves in that manner on that night would have most likely met the same fate.

 

 

^ I completely agree but this seems to be a case where you are presenting commonsense issues and many others are trying to frame it as some grand injustice.

 

True.  Every time I see something like this, I have to recall the Arthur Buford case.  We're not talking about people with what the rest of us would call normal priorities.

We're not talking about people with what the rest of us would call normal priorities.

 

That is a very useful perspective when discussing these sorts of things. 

 

Thanks for that.

^You can dehumanize the victims if it helps you justify the action, but I don't think it's necessary.  The cops appear to be justified in their use of deadly force at the end of the chase.  But huge questions remain as to the origin of the chase, the continuation of the chase, and whether these two individuals posed a threat to society large enough to warrant a 25 minute high speed chase through city streets.

 

All anyone wants is the truth.  What happened?  Were mistakes made?  How can they be prevented in the future.

^ I don't see how that perspective is dehumanizing.  It's actually the essence of being human, the decisions that we make define us.

 

Surprisingly Mr. Morris highlights this very issue of misplaced priorities very eloquently in the last sentence of his column today.  I could not have said it better if I tried.

 

"A ridiculous mound of stuffed animals stood Tuesday near the site where Russell and Williams met their ends – a cruel mockery of the young children inside the school. "

 

http://www.cleveland.com/morris/index.ssf/2012/12/cleveland_must_take_hard_polic.html#incart_river_default

 

 

I don't think anyone here is questioning how the chase ended.  The police reacted in a manner that was seemingly appropriate.  I think that most people are concerned about how/why the chase started and continued. 

The reasons for starting and pursing the chase are probably the least questionable parts.  If the cops have anything resembling probable cause to believe you fired a gun out of your car, they can pull you over to investigate.  Once you run, you’ve pretty much justified the decision to pull you over, and the chase itself.

The fact that the police were ordered to cease the chase is bad enough. The fact that it ended in death is worse. And since one officer had fired his weapon 30-40 times (meaning he had to reload several times if he was firing a service issue .45 auto) is pretty despicable. I agree that deadly force was justified when the accused allegedly tried to ram the police cars. The fact that it got that far was due to police ignoring orders. And having to reload (three times) was literally overkill. The bodies were so badly shot up that police couldn't tell after the shooting was over whether the dead were men or women. That's what's called blood lust -- it's a rage my oldest brother experienced in Vietnam. And the results haunt him to this day.

The reasons for starting and pursing the chase are probably the least questionable parts.  If the cops have anything resembling probable cause to believe you fired a gun out of your car, they can pull you over to investigate.  Once you run, you’ve pretty much justified the decision to pull you over, and the chase itself.

 

They don't even need probable cause.  Reasonable suspicion will suffice for a stop and frisk as approved by the infamous State v. Terry case which eminated from a stop and frisk in downtown Cleveland by a cop who didn't have 'probable cause'.... although his experience and training gave him the suspicion that they were casing a jewelry store for a possible robbery. 

 

That said, the 'questions' (valid or not) about the origins of the chase in no way challenge the ability of the cops to engage in such a chase if their report is correct.  But I think people are suspicious for the reason that there is no evidence, other than the cops' word, that a gun was ever fired inside or from that car.  No shell casings were found in the car or the immediate area.  The gun has still not been recovered.  I don't think any autopsy reports have been released yet, but it will be telling whether either of the suspects has gun powder residue on their persons.  Another inquiry needs to be made as to why the suspects were downtown at or near the justice center.  A catastrophic bomb would be dropped if, for instance, one or both of the suspects was there to report some type of police misconduct or if there were some other type of shady dealings between the police and the suspects.  TO BE CLEAR, there is NOTHING to indicate any of the latter concerns at this point.

 

The continuation of the chase, even without considering the order to cease and desist, probably raises more valid concerns.  There is no easy answer for cops when they have to decide to either keep pursuing at high rates of speed(at the risk of injury to the public) or call of the chase and let the suspects get away (at the risk of injury to the public).  I find that people are often surprised at how often and under what circumstnaces, police are trained to not pursue.

The reasons for starting and pursing the chase are probably the least questionable parts.  If the cops have anything resembling probable cause to believe you fired a gun out of your car, they can pull you over to investigate.  Once you run, you’ve pretty much justified the decision to pull you over, and the chase itself.

 

I understand the law and what you're saying is definitely true, but the cops are given enough flexibility that in their jobs they do have the opportunity to fabricate probable cause if they so desire (and some take advantage of this freedom).  My only point is that if their probable cause was based on a fired shot, and yet no gun or bullet casings have been found, then I don't think that public demand for scrutiny or an independent investigation is unwarranted.  I honestly don't know what happened, and there may be a perfectly legitimate explanation for the inconsistencies, however as of now it appears to me that something isn't adding up.

Well, a co-worker had his Honda Accord stolen from a lot just east of Galleria.  We first thought it might've been towed for some violation. Nope...gone. He's from Detroit. That will team him to move to the CLE!

 

Update: buddy's car was just found on E. 55th, minus catalytic converter and a few other things. Also, there was a large knife left on the front seat.

^That's odd.... when my car was rummaged through a year or two ago, the knife that I keep on my visor was about all the thief took.  Glad to hear he found his car.  It was literally on the street?

^That's odd.... when my car was rummaged through a year or two ago, the knife that I keep on my visor was about all the thief took.  Glad to hear he found his car.  It was literally on the street?

 

Yeah right on the street. You've got me wondering how many knives are circulating around here ha ha.

This is the kind of police news I loved to report.....

 

Man Charged for Barking at Police Dog

Posted by Vince Grzegorek on Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 10:21 AM

 

If Cameron Dunn had been a Scene reader the last couple of years, he would have known that barking at a police dog is a crime.

 

Did you know that? Probably not, but you've also probably never had the inclination to bark at a police dog.

 

This happened at least once before, back in April 2011 when a Cincy-area man "teased" a cop K-9 by barking at him. When cops asked him what the hell he was doing, the man said, "The dog started it."

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2013/01/10/man-charged-for-barking-at-police-dog

CNN puts us as 4th most dangerous city in the US, right after Oakland!

 

"Burglaries were one of the biggest issues facing Cleveland residents in 2011, with the number of break-ins and thefts climbing by 8.6% from the previous year. That gave the city the second highest burglary rate in the country -- next to Toledo, Ohio.

 

Street crimes -- robberies and assaults -- also continued to soar, with Cleveland second only to Oakland among the nation's 72 largest cities.

 

One area of improvement: The number of murders fell to 74, from 81 the year before."

 

More at: http://money.cnn.com/gallery/real_estate/2013/01/23/dangerous-cities/4.html

 

I would agree with burglaries as being the man concern of us residents on the near west side.  As for it being dangerous...thats a stretch.

I wonder how many of these break ins happen in already abandoned properties.  The stripping of pipes and copper could also be considered a burglary, no?

I wonder how many of these break ins happen in already abandoned properties.  The stripping of pipes and copper could also be considered a burglary, no?

 

Stealing from a property that doesn't belong to you is burglary. Stealing from a property where someone is lawfully present is aggravated burglary. If force is used to take property or in the process of eluding capture, it's robbery. And if a weapon is displayed or even suggested (such as by threatening to use a weapon even if it unseen or doesn't exist), then it is armed robbery.

 

EDIT: by the way, this is not from an official or legal reiteration of the Ohio Revised Code, but from the memory of a Sun Newspapers reporter who covered the police beat for 14 years.

I can't agree with the list and will be inquiring.  Considering, Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Houston, NYC, Los Angeles, Portland & Seattle are equally as dangerous.  More to come!

Will be interested to see what your inquiry is--it sounds like they are just totaling up certain crime statistics and applying that to the population to get a rate, right?  I am sure there are discrepancies in the way things are reported. 

Crime is notoriously difficult to compare across jurisdictions, even when using the FBI's uniform crime data.  And of course, overall crime rates are of limited usefulness, because crime is so heavily concentrated spatially.  But that said, assuming the list focuses on municipal boundaries and not metro areas, I don't know how surprising it is that Cleveland places badly. 

 

I can't agree with the list and will be inquiring.  Considering, Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Houston, NYC, Los Angeles, Portland & Seattle are equally as dangerous.  More to come!

 

Statistically, the City of Cleveland is much, much more dangerous than NYC.  That part isn't really up for debate.

^You don't see Clevelanders in movies idly walking by paying no mind when someone is getting mugged ;)

or getting pushed in front of trains....

Crime is notoriously difficult to compare across jurisdictions, even when using the FBI's uniform crime data.  And of course, overall crime rates are of limited usefulness, because crime is so heavily concentrated spatially.  But that said, assuming the list focuses on municipal boundaries and not metro areas, I don't know how surprising it is that Cleveland places badly. 

 

I can't agree with the list and will be inquiring.  Considering, Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Houston, NYC, Los Angeles, Portland & Seattle are equally as dangerous.  More to come!

 

Statistically, the City of Cleveland is much, much more dangerous than NYC.  That part isn't really up for debate.

 

Living in both, I'll disagree.  But as you say, it isn't up for debate.

^Disagree about what? I could easily dig up the uniform crime reporting data and population data to show original calculations, but out of laziness, here is the wiki list showing violent crime per capita for major US cities in 2011: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

 

From this data, Cleveland's violent crime rate is literally twice that of NYC's.  Even with all the problems comparing across jurisdictions, the two aren't really close.  And if you look at homicide, where data collection is a little more reliable, the divergence is even wider.

 

Again, jurisdiction-wide homicide rate isn't really useful for most purposes.  The murder rate in Cleveland is obviously driven by the tough stuff in the really troubled areas that are pretty easy to avoid.  Which isn't to say crime in those other neighborhoods isn't a serious problem for the residents there that should be ignored.

^ More than twice that of NYC, LA, Seattle, and Portland.  Of the cities mentioned, only Miami is anywhere close, with Houston being about 2/3 of Cleveland's violent crime rate.  Wish it wasn't so, but we can't bury our heads in the sand about it.

 

KJP, close but no cigar. In order for a crime to be a Burglary in the State of Ohio ORC, the property MUST be inhabited by a person. Theft is the ORC crime for an uninhabited property, so no, vacants do not count toward that stat. Furthermore, Burglaries are extremely serious as the criminal is invading someone elses property while they are in it or not. Criminals have a track record of harming people during crimes as well as witnesses to crimes, so I would say Burglaries are very serious. Furthermore Burglary is not the crime of stealing/taking someon elses property, thats Theft. Burglary is the act of Breaking In or entering a premises without permission. Typically most police reports are a combination Burglary/Theft. Vacants would just be Theft since there is no inhabitants.

 

Cite some documentation please. I believe that forcibly entering a property that's vacant is B&E.

I believe cleveland breaks it down as residential burglary and nonresidential burglary. From there they break it down as either no force, force, or aggravated burglary force residential.

And non residential has a description of B&E force or no force and then non residence. But it still classified under Nonresidential burglary

CNN puts us as 4th most dangerous city in the US, right after Oakland!

 

"Burglaries were one of the biggest issues facing Cleveland residents in 2011, with the number of break-ins and thefts climbing by 8.6% from the previous year. That gave the city the second highest burglary rate in the country -- next to Toledo, Ohio.

 

Street crimes -- robberies and assaults -- also continued to soar, with Cleveland second only to Oakland among the nation's 72 largest cities.

 

One area of improvement: The number of murders fell to 74, from 81 the year before."

 

More at: http://money.cnn.com/gallery/real_estate/2013/01/23/dangerous-cities/4.html

Why are they using 2011 numbers and not 2012 because with the FBI rankings I saw we were number 12 going off of 2012 numbers.

This is not a dangerous city. I live in it. Solo then here come the arguments that say, you don't live in the bad part o the city. To which point ill say fine, then by that model, Chicago is the most dangerous city in the country

This is not a dangerous city. I live in it. Solo then here come the arguments that say, you don't live in the bad part o the city. To which point ill say fine, then by that model, Chicago is the most dangerous city in the country

 

Exactly.  They had 7 murders last night!

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-boy-16-and-man-32-gunned-down-on-west-side-street-20130126,0,3833533.story

This is not a dangerous city. I live in it. Solo then here come the arguments that say, you don't live in the bad part o the city. To which point ill say fine, then by that model, Chicago is the most dangerous city in the country

 

They've also had some of the strictest gun laws.

About as strict as DC and New York, and they have far fewer gun deaths (at least per capita)

About as strict as DC and New York, and they have far fewer gun deaths (at least per capita)

 

Less competent police leadership, more gangs, etc.

 

 

Interesting (IMO) perspective on Chicago and its crime situation:

 

http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/

This is not a dangerous city. I live in it. Solo then here come the arguments that say, you don't live in the bad part o the city. To which point ill say fine, then by that model, Chicago is the most dangerous city in the country

 

They've also had some of the strictest gun laws.

 

But, unfortunately, closely borders a state (Indiana) which has very lax gun laws and more gun shows than you can shake an extended clip at.

 

Top 10 states for gun violence per capita are Louisiana, S. Carolina, Maryland, Missouri, Michigan, Mississippi, Tennessee, Georgia, Arkansas, Pennsylvania

Just checking some of the posts, and it is a little disturbing to see shades of attitudes that go in the direction of suggesting that since such discussed crime happens elsewhere (naturally as few would disagree) that it somehow makes it easier to swallow when it happens in Cleveland...and maybe lighter to accept when we decide to address it. Not as though it makes it ok, so much as it seems to suggest that we can relax about it a little more when it happens here.... since it happens elsewhere. The problems stat when the crime issue is disproportionate to the size of a given area.

Cite some documentation please. I believe that forcibly entering a property that's vacant is B&E.

 

Here's the ORC section on all of these things.  http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2911

 

Generally broken down based on whether or not force is threatened/used, and what the source of threat/use would be (deadly weapon, etc.), and occupied v. unoccupied. 

Looking at the statute, it appears B&E requires forcibly entering structure with intent to commit further crime like theft. 

Yes that is correct, I was not talking about B&E at time, I was just highlighting that Theft is not the same as Burglary. Burg/Break is the accessing part, Theft is the taking/stealing part. All i was trying to say

Man found stabbed to death at W 107.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/02/man_found_stabbed_to_death_on.html#incart_river

Man found stabbed to death at W 107.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/02/man_found_stabbed_to_death_on.html#incart_river

 

That's basically on the edge of the odd, unpopulated suburban looking stretch along Detroit.

It happens.  I dont know what the cause is of this crime, but i would be 90% confident someone wasnt walking down the street minding his own business and all of a sudden gets carved up.  If you put yourself in bad positions, the outcomes are not in your favor. 

I agree, although a neighbor of mine was once carved up just walking 1/2 block to the store.  So that does happen.

There was also a shooting death last night:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/02/man_shot_killed_on_citys_east.html#incart_river_default

It happens.  I dont know what the cause is of this crime, but i would be 90% confident someone wasnt walking down the street minding his own business and all of a sudden gets carved up.  If you put yourself in bad positions, the outcomes are not in your favor. 

 

I don't think he was on the street. I'm wondering that since the victims family went to "check up" on him, that he might have been found inside? It's not explicit in the article.

Even if it was in his house...there HAS to be a motive, right?  DO people just go into houses and stab people for no reason and leave?  Motive can be anything from jealousy, to drugs, to money, to women/men.  ALl im saying is, i live in an area that is adjacent to sketchy areas where violent crime happens.  I take it with a grain of salt.

Even if it was in his house...there HAS to be a motive, right?  DO people just go into houses and stab people for no reason and leave?  Motive can be anything from jealousy, to drugs, to money, to women/men.  ALl im saying is, i live in an area that is adjacent to sketchy areas where violent crime happens.  I take it with a grain of salt.

 

I understand your point. And I've said nothing to disagree. But now I will add that there have been three incidents where I've had friends on Detroit Ave who were in fact minding their own business only to have guns pointed at their heads in robberies. One event I managed to luckily avoid by sheer seconds, and it led to a guy getting shot in the head (survived) trying to be a good Samaritan.

 

p.s. EVERY section of Cleveland is adjacent to an area where violent crime happens.

 

 

 

 

 

 

p.s. EVERY section of Cleveland is adjacent to an area where violent crime happens.

 

 

Wait, what?  It is?  holy $hit how did I end up here?  My realtor lied to me!