I'm honestly wondering if you read the right report.

 

He read the one distributed by Fox News (and thus probably written by them, too!).

 

But seriously, the same thing happened with New Orleans police which was put under the oversight of a federal consent decree and ultimately resulted in lots of resignations and firings.

 

 

Fox bought cleveland.com?  The whole report is up there.

 

Quite frankly, I wonder if Holder's gripe with CPD is they didn't give enough guns to Detriot drug gangs.

 

The stuff about recordkeeping, from this administration, stretches the bounds of irony.

I was wondering when we were going to talk about the press conference. I can't believe what a big, black eye we just got. It's embarrassing. I hope this means there will really be change happening going forward.

 

If you guys get reforms without riots, consider it a good black eye (as far as black eyes go). This will be overshadowed by Ferguson and NYC. Hopefully this puts Cleveland ahead of the curve, as I don't believe this problem is confined to one, three, or just a handful of cities.

 

Honestly, in consideration of all three recent cases (Ferguson, Staten Island, and Cleveland) I found the Cleveland case the most troubling.  The kid wasn't threatening an officer or resisting arrest.  I read the report and it's pretty shocking.  I know Cleveland is a dangerous city but the repeat offenses of officers just firing off rounds almost without thinking is crazy.  Not to mention straightup kicking people's asses after they are already restrained...  I'm shocked the city has only paid out $10 million over the last ten years.  Might be interesting to see what other cities have paid out over same time frame for police settlements

I was wondering when we were going to talk about the press conference. I can't believe what a big, black eye we just got. It's embarrassing. I hope this means there will really be change happening going forward.

 

If you guys get reforms without riots, consider it a good black eye (as far as black eyes go). This will be overshadowed by Ferguson and NYC. Hopefully this puts Cleveland ahead of the curve, as I don't believe this problem is confined to one, three, or just a handful of cities.

 

Honestly, in consideration of all three recent cases (Ferguson, Staten Island, and Cleveland) I found the Cleveland case the most troubling.  The kid wasn't threatening an officer or resisting arrest.  I read the report and it's pretty shocking.  I know Cleveland is a dangerous city but the repeat offenses of officers just firing off rounds almost without thinking is crazy.  Not to mention straightup kicking people's asses after they are already restrained...  I'm shocked the city has only paid out $10 million over the last ten years.  Might be interesting to see what other cities have paid out over same time frame for police settlements

 

I would say Staten Island was, though the fault lies with making this an arrest offense more than any misconduct on the part of the officer.

Tamir was pointing his gun at people, a weapon that may not be lethal but was quite dangerous and made to look moreso.  The cops did not know it was a fake, but had no idea about his mindset.  Indeed, the only things that make sense is he was seriously delusional (as far as I know he has no record of such) or perhaps it was part of a gang initiation.

 

The most likely explanations for a 12 year old playing with a fake gun are mental illness or gang initiation?  Sometimes I wonder if you're a parody account.

The most likely explanation for a 12 year old playing with a fake gun are mental illness or gang initiation?  Sometimes I wonder if you're a parody account.

 

Pointing it at people walking by?  That's on video.

^You do remember being a kid, right? He was playing. That's what kids do with toy guns. They play. 12 year olds aren't exactly the best judge of what you should and shouldn't do.

 

When I was 12 we were painting our nerf guns to look more like real guns. In retrospect that was a really stupid idea but we had no idea. Because we were 12!

 

Your blatant racism with the "gang initiation" comment should get your posts deleted. You're completely out of bounds. And I don't think you even realize that. Your comments on this topic are so off point it's hard to read them without finding them offensive.

I dont understand why all of the fearful finger pointers are defending the police, when the CPD themselves are pretty much admitting this was botched on many accounts by the two officers. 

 

Ill be honest...i respect most police officers.  thats a hard job and some go into the profession with all of the right intentions and do a great job. But lets be honest...there are a handful of officers that go into being an officer because they cant do anything else.  College was hard, focus was hard, etc.  They are uneducated people with guns.  And if DOJ is now saying that training and process to allow a person to be a police officer was not appropriate, then thats pretty frightening. 

I dont understand why all of the fearful finger pointers are defending the police, when the CPD themselves are pretty much admitting this was botched on many accounts by the two officers. 

 

When has the CPD admitted this was botched?  They couldn't immediately answer why the officer drove up so close to gazebo at the park in the initial press conference but besides offering condolences, I haven't seen any admission of wrongdoing (which may or may not even exist here).  Unless I missed something, of course.

I dont understand why all of the fearful finger pointers are defending the police, when the CPD themselves are pretty much admitting this was botched on many accounts by the two officers. 

 

When has the CPD admitted this was botched?  They couldn't immediately answer why the officer drove up so close to gazebo at the park in the initial press conference but besides offering condolences, I haven't seen any admission of wrongdoing (which may or may not even exist here).  Unless I missed something, of course.

 

Agree, I didn't read any official comments to that level of admission. However, common sense dictates that if a suspect reportedly has a gun, why would any officer in their right mind expose themselves to danger by pulling right up in front of that person?

THey didnt come out and say it "we botched it"...but the following actions took place:

 

-stated they didnt know why they drove up to the gazebo (didnt defend those actions)

-got as close to the community as possible through publc forums, 100% transparency and being accountable as a department AND openly releasing the video at the request of the family (if the right protocol was followed- why would they be at the mercy of the public and family...its like they are walking on ice and just keeping their fingers crosed the ice doesnt break (a larger more destructive public outcry).

-admitted that the officer in the shooting was unfit for work at INdependence PD and that he was awful with a gun.

 

I dont know. maybe its just me. I kind of feel if they felt this was handled correctly, they would be standing more behind the officers and how the situation was handled.  But they arent.  They cant go out and say "our guy screwed up and essentially murdered this kid". But actions sometimes speak louder than words.

Mmmmmm I don't view any of those as admissions one way or another.  If anything, it shows that they are aware of the ramifications of stonewalling the press and public.  It is at least encouraging that they are being more transparent than I ever remember them being.  Of course the union will represent the officer, but it seems like the CPD is neutrally going to let his actions be judged for what they are (at least in the court of public opinion).  In a lot of ways, their neutrality seems to be a big victory for the reform crowd.

^You do remember being a kid, right? He was playing. That's what kids do with toy guns. They play. 12 year olds aren't exactly the best judge of what you should and shouldn't do.

 

When I was 12 we were painting our nerf guns to look more like real guns. In retrospect that was a really stupid idea but we had no idea. Because we were 12!

 

Your blatant racism with the "gang initiation" comment should get your posts deleted. You're completely out of bounds. And I don't think you even realize that. Your comments on this topic are so off point it's hard to read them without finding them offensive.

 

Culturism, not racism.  Which is a different matter entirely.  It's about the age at which kids get initiated, regardless of race.  And we may have played with guns that looked real, but we didn't point them at random people on the street.

 

Nor was it commonplace for teens to kill people, in any neighborhood or of any color.  That's no longer true.

 

It's something a gang would do, to initiate a twelve year old.  "Let's see if you are callous enough to point this and scare people."

Even if we went with your ridiculously prejudiced scenario, this gangster couldn't have been apprehended without being killed? 

Even if we went with your ridiculously prejudiced scenario, this gangster couldn't have been apprehended without being killed? 

 

Probably.  But if he really did go for his gun when told to freeze, what should the cop have done?

the car was still moving when shots were fired.  we are literally talking about less than two seconds between the cops arriving on scene and Tamir being dead.

^You mean Tamir being shot.  I don't think he died till after the cops walked around his bleeding body for 4+ minutes without offering first aid.

City of Cleveland Is Urging Downtown Employees to Head Home Prior to 3 p.m. Public Square Protests via @ericsandy

http://t.co/XZxMx8a099

the car was still moving when shots were fired.  we are literally talking about less than two seconds between the cops arriving on scene and Tamir being dead.

 

Between the CPD's account and the video of the incident: the officer told Tamir to put his hands up 3 times (may have been done while the car was moving), the car stopped, 2 seconds elapsed, and then the officer shot.

I can't comprehend how people are defending the officers in this case. I honestly can't.

 

What is you definition of "defending the officers?"  Is wanting to have a clear understanding of the events considered "defending the officers?"

 

As a partial aside, this is what I see the problem being with the conversations surrounding the recent police killings.  It seems, from the most vocal people, that there is no room to even consider that the killings were anything other than cold blooded murder.  Somehow, wanting to even discuss the facts, evidence, applicable law/standards, or expressing any modicum of doubt whatsoever is equivalent to staunchly defending bloodthirsty murderous racists or opposing the proposition that "black lives matter."  I don't see any of the recent events as clear cut in one way or the other - there's just too much to consider.  But for a lot of people, the recent events are equivalent to Klansmen walking up to innocent black men and blowing their heads off.

 

Good article about this (^) phenomenon: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/the-culture-of-shut-up/360239/

^ And on the other side you have folks thinking cops are always justified in their actions. 

^ And on the other side you have folks thinking cops are always justified in their actions.

 

Yup and that's equally as ridiculous.

It seems like people are radical on either side, which is bad.  EIther is the cops are murderers or the kids should be killed because they are waving a gun.  The active, leaders that we should all be as Cleveland residents should understand that its a multi pronged problem and we should aim to get involved in our communities to both inspire residents to be better people, better parents, better children and also hold our police force accountable to be better.  Pushing EVERYONE (Residents, politicians, entrepreneurs, leaders, police) to be better needs to be the goal of everyone who is doing the complaining. Pointing fingers, blaming and complaining doesnt solve anything...leadeing from the front, helping people do better in their own lives, inspiring them, and being good residents solves things.  Unfortunately that requires leadership and effort, which not alot of these armchair quarterbacks are willing to give.  (Disclaimer-this post isnt directed towards anyone on this board, but to alot of the people on WKYC, Cleveland.com, Cleve Scene facebook posts that are just saying "dont wave the bebe gun and you wont get killed" or "all cops are murderers". ).  Radical, sensational posts drive me insane. Keeping an even mind, objectively looking at issues and offering solutions to problems is what we all need more of

It seems like people are radical on either side, which is bad.  EIther is the cops are murderers or the kids should be killed because they are waving a gun.  The active, leaders that we should all be as Cleveland residents should understand that its a multi pronged problem and we should aim to get involved in our communities to both inspire residents to be better people, better parents, better children and also hold our police force accountable to be better.  Pushing EVERYONE (Residents, politicians, entrepreneurs, leaders, police) to be better needs to be the goal of everyone who is doing the complaining. Pointing fingers, blaming and complaining doesnt solve anything...leadeing from the front, helping people do better in their own lives, inspiring them, and being good residents solves things.  Unfortunately that requires leadership and effort, which not alot of these armchair quarterbacks are willing to give.  (Disclaimer-this post isnt directed towards anyone on this board, but to alot of the people on WKYC, Cleveland.com, Cleve Scene facebook posts that are just saying "dont wave the bebe gun and you wont get killed" or "all cops are murderers". ).  Radical, sensational posts drive me insane. Keeping an even mind, objectively looking at issues and offering solutions to problems is what we all need more of

 

Amen.

It seems like people are radical on either side, which is bad.  EIther is the cops are murderers or the kids should be killed because they are waving a gun.  The active, leaders that we should all be as Cleveland residents should understand that its a multi pronged problem and we should aim to get involved in our communities to both inspire residents to be better people, better parents, better children and also hold our police force accountable to be better.  Pushing EVERYONE (Residents, politicians, entrepreneurs, leaders, police) to be better needs to be the goal of everyone who is doing the complaining. Pointing fingers, blaming and complaining doesnt solve anything...leadeing from the front, helping people do better in their own lives, inspiring them, and being good residents solves things.  Unfortunately that requires leadership and effort, which not alot of these armchair quarterbacks are willing to give.  (Disclaimer-this post isnt directed towards anyone on this board, but to alot of the people on WKYC, Cleveland.com, Cleve Scene facebook posts that are just saying "dont wave the bebe gun and you wont get killed" or "all cops are murderers". ).  Radical, sensational posts drive me insane. Keeping an even mind, objectively looking at issues and offering solutions to problems is what we all need more of

  [empasis mine]

 

Not to nitpick, but holding officers and leaders accountable = "pointing fingers, blaming and complaining" until they change their behavior, are fired, or whatever, which hasn't been happening to this point.  And for your mental health, I'd stop reading the comments section  on web sites.  Take comfort that the extreme voices aren't the only ones out there.

 

[Edited for clarity and typos]

[quote author=BelievelandD1 link=topic=4065.msg73613  And for your mental health, I'd stop reading the comments section  on web sites.  Take comfort that the extreme voices aren't the only ones out there

 

Hard to avoid it when u have ur nose in everything around here

It seems like people are radical on either side, which is bad.  EIther is the cops are murderers or the kids should be killed because they are waving a gun.  The active, leaders that we should all be as Cleveland residents should understand that its a multi pronged problem and we should aim to get involved in our communities to both inspire residents to be better people, better parents, better children and also hold our police force accountable to be better.  Pushing EVERYONE (Residents, politicians, entrepreneurs, leaders, police) to be better needs to be the goal of everyone who is doing the complaining. Pointing fingers, blaming and complaining doesnt solve anything...leadeing from the front, helping people do better in their own lives, inspiring them, and being good residents solves things.  Unfortunately that requires leadership and effort, which not alot of these armchair quarterbacks are willing to give.  (Disclaimer-this post isnt directed towards anyone on this board, but to alot of the people on WKYC, Cleveland.com, Cleve Scene facebook posts that are just saying "dont wave the bebe gun and you wont get killed" or "all cops are murderers". ).  Radical, sensational posts drive me insane. Keeping an even mind, objectively looking at issues and offering solutions to problems is what we all need more of

 

I don't think we have any cops or former cops posting here, I may be wrong.  But from what I do, I can provide a little perspective.

 

I may ask someone to move out of an aisle or change seats, just as a cop may say move along or don't enter an area.  If you do, we're completely cool.  If not, at every level of resistance the situation escalates, rather dramatically.  It is how it is.  The non-compliers are resisting authority, and the ability of same to do their job.

 

That's why these street-blocking incidents should be dealt with harshly.  Leaving aside that they are protesting the cops by hiding behind the cops, it's a big bleep-you to established authority that makes one wonder how and where else such is being countenanced.

^ Statist!

Wow, so a co-worker just got his Honda Civic stolen from a downtown lot....FOR THE SECOND TIME.

Wow, so a co-worker just got his Honda Civic stolen from a downtown lot....FOR THE SECOND TIME.

 

Which lot?  People still steal cars?

Same honda civic?

same car. Yep. It was at a lot on hamilton down a few blockr west from galleria. Last time it was recovered near e55. And there was a machete inside.

 

This is from Cleveland.com today.  I'm sorry if the snippet is too long, but I felt that It was necessary to pull this chunk of the article in its entirety, as there was discussion on what the actual procedure is when encountering an armed suspect.  There is much more to the article, though.

 

Examining police training: How officers are taught to deal with armed suspects

By Ryllie Danylko, Northeast Ohio Media Group

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/how_police_are_trained_to_deal.html

 

 

How to do it right

 

Experts in police field training point to a handful of shortcomings in the Tamir Rice case. Much of this criticism runs parallel with with the Justice Department's findings. 

 

Thomas Aveni, executive director of the Police Policy Studies Council, and David Thomas, senior research fellow with the Police Foundation, said that well-established protocols underscore a handful of approaches police can take when dealing with armed suspects.

 

Experts said the way the officers approached Tamir by speeding the car up to him and stopping within feet of where the boy was standing was tactically unsound. When approaching someone who's either holding a gun or indicating that they have one, police are trained to first take cover at a safe distance and create a barrier between themselves and the other person. This usually means ducking behind the police cruiser or a building.

 

Next, officers should draw their weapons and command the suspect to drop their gun and get on the ground. The dialogue that happens between an officer and the suspect is what some experts call the most important aspect of police work.

 

If the suspect complies, one officer should then search the suspect for any additional weapons while the other officer still has his or her gun drawn. If a concealed weapon is found, officers should place cuffs on the suspect.

 

Officers should keep their guns in their dominant hand, leaving their other hand free for other actions, including using their radios to call for help. If the suspect doesn't follow orders and makes a threatening movement, that's when an officer must make a split-second decision whether to fire.

 

Though officers may have less than a second to decide whether to shoot, they need to take various factors into account. They must consider the suspect's size, age, known history of violence or mental disability, availability of weapons and the suspect-officer ratio.

 

When feasible, officers should warn the suspect that they're going to shoot if they continue to present a threat.

 

If the suspect points a gun at someone, or reaches for a gun in a way that indicates they're going to shoot, police are allowed to fire.

 

Police are trained to shoot at "center mass," or a suspect's torso where many vital organs are located.

 

Perception is key

 

Even in cases where's there's video of a shooting – as in the Tamir Rice case – Thomas says an officer's perception still needs to be considered.

 

"In that case, I don't know what the officer saw when he got out of the car," Thomas said. "That's left for him to explain."

 

Experts say officer-involved shootings are all about an officer's perception of danger, which can be a tricky thing to gauge.

 

"What one officer might perceive as dangerous, another officer may not," Thomas said.

 

So it sounds like the reoccurring criticism, from the above article and others, is that the officers pulled up too close without creating a barrier for their safety.  Intuitively, that criticism makes sense.  It put the officers in an immediate danger that may have otherwise been avoided had they had some separation.

 

I understand the article's emphasis on negotiations as well but from what we've heard about this situation, that was not possible given how fast the situation unfolded (probably due to their proximity to Tamir).

 

All of that said, this is what Tamir had that day:

 

 

So, for the sake of discussion - I want to know what you would do if you were repeatedly telling someone to put their hands up as they continued reaching into their waistband for the gun you see in the picture.  Who would shoot and who wouldn't?

 

Maybe their aggressive approach will be the dispositive factor in this case - I'm not sure how it fits in to the legal analysis.  Maybe a resident UO attorney can weigh in.

So it sounds like the reoccurring criticism, from the above article and others, is that the officers pulled up too close without creating a barrier for their safety.  Intuitively, that criticism makes sense.  It put the officers in an immediate danger that may have otherwise been avoided had they had some separation.

 

I understand the article's emphasis on negotiations as well but from what we've heard about this situation, that was not possible given how fast the situation unfolded (probably due to their proximity to Tamir).

 

All of that said, this is what Tamir had that day:

 

 

So, for the sake of discussion - I want to know what you would do if you were repeatedly telling someone to put their hands up as they continued reaching into their waistband for the gun you see in the picture.  Who would shoot and who wouldn't?

 

Maybe their aggressive approach will be the dispositive factor in this case - I'm not sure how it fits in to the legal analysis.  Maybe a resident UO attorney can weigh in.

 

I guess Tim Loehmann speaks really quickly if he ordered the gun dropped, deduced danger and, then, killed 12-year-old Tamir Rice all in the space of 2 seconds.  And why would Tamir go for his gun, in defense, when he knows it's a toy.  Was this young kid of 12 engaging in Suicide by Cop.  I seriously doubt it.

So you don't believe Officer Loehmann ordered Tamir to put his hand up and you don't believe Tamir reached for the gun?  Of course, Tamir could have reached for the gun without thinking he would "use" it.  I know at age 12, I would probably not have been able to think straight and may have reached for it to throw it on the ground - out of fear.

All we know of Officer Loehmann is that he was not mentally stable enough to hack it in Independence. That his weapons training was "dismal." And that he wanted more "action."

 

Why give this moron the benefit of the doubt?

This is a tragic, horrible case where both parties probably share some fault.

 

I do encourage anyone questioning the outcome to ride along with a Cleveland Police officer on a routine shift. 

 

Bring on the cameras.  Or maybe the use of cameras will become the opposite of what the supporters intend. 

 

Let the cameras let us see what they see, and how they are treated.  Lots of completely out-of-control domestic situations.  And kids with absolutely ZERO respect for authority.  They have no parental influences, no one to teach them right from wrong.  The cops often have to be parents to the parents, who themselves are barely out of their teen years.

 

This isn't to say there aren't some Dbag cops or some sort of systemic trouble in the department.  So I support bringing cameras to the CPD force--let's see reality it full color.  Maybe this will bring change.

 

 

Sure, none of those things work in his favor.  What we know of his background is very disturbing.  But theoretically, could he have acted lawfully in this situation?

Sure, none of those things work in his favor.  What we know of his background is very disturbing.  But theoretically, could he have acted lawfully in this situation?

 

The term "lawfully" means virtually nothing to me. Check out the Wal-Mart video where the police actions were determined to be "lawful." That term is ajoke.

 

 

Even if you concede that he reached for his airsoft gun, The officers escalated the situation by their approach both unnecessarily and fatally.

 

You have to think this will lead to an indictment, given the the (euphemistically) questionable tactic, public video, officer's past, conflicting original reports from CPD, and the DOJ report.  Right? 

 

The official statements from Loehmann haven't been released, yet.  We need to see what those yield.

 

For me, If he acted lawfully in this situation, as the prosecutors argue that police have acted lawfully in these recent national instances, then we need to change the criteria for what is and is not lawful behavior for a cop.

 

I guess Tim Loehmann speaks really quickly if he ordered the gun dropped, deduced danger and, then, killed 12-year-old Tamir Rice all in the space of 2 seconds.  And why would Tamir go for his gun, in defense, when he knows it's a toy.  Was this young kid of 12 engaging in Suicide by Cop.  I seriously doubt it.

 

Do we know that the police cruiser PA was not used before the car was stopped?

This is rather broad, non-Cleveland specific comment here, but it came to mind last night.  The peak of teen pregnancies in this Country was in the early to mid-90's I do believe.  A lot of the insufficient or even poor parenting is the result of all those teen pregnancies IMHO.  I think the farther we get away from that peak, the less we are going to see the consequences of poor parenting and lack of guidance.  Certainly, poor parenting is something society will never be able to eradicate...... but it can be minimized somewhat by encouraging responsible sexual practices.  Not abstinence.  Kids will be kids.

 

Wow, so a co-worker just got his Honda Civic stolen from a downtown lot....FOR THE SECOND TIME.

 

Might be because it is so easy to steal.  Car thieves target certain cars which are either easy to steal or have high value in the scrap market.

The peak of teen pregnancies in this Country was in the early to mid-90's I do believe.

 

You're right.  I wonder why this is?

 

Figure 1: Birth rates per 1,000 females ages 15-19, by race/ethnicity, 1990-2012

 

http://www.hhs.gov/ash/oah/adolescent-health-topics/reproductive-health/teen-pregnancy/trends.html

Why the drop?  It's not from a rise in abortions, which are down as well.  I assume it has a lot to do with the sexual education and the availability of protection so many who pissed and moaned about the effects of teen pregnancy fought so hard to keep out of the schools.  That battle is now lost.  Kids are being more careful.

Yeah, the dramatic drop in teenage pregnancy, like the dramatic drop in violent crime over the past few decades, has been widely reported, but doesn't seem to gain much traction in the public consciousness.  Not compatible with the prevalent narrative of societal decline, I guess.

drug use among teenagers is low too.

^Really?  I am not sure about that.  Weed seems to be as popular as ever.  Not that weed ever had much to do with teen pregnancy.  Coke may have fallen a bit out of style, but worse yet it was replaced by smack.  the more telling stat I would think with teen pregnancy and other mischief would be underage drinking.

Why the drop?  It's not from a rise in abortions, which are down as well.  I assume it has a lot to do with the sexual education and the availability of protection so many who pissed and moaned about the effects of teen pregnancy fought so hard to keep out of the schools.  That battle is now lost.  Kids are being more careful.

 

Hasn't child support enforcement gotten more effective lately?  Might cause boys to be more careful....

^I don't know that it has...... but I don't know too many 13-16 year old boys that even consider the consequences of child support.  I would highly doubt there is any cause and effect on that angle.  Sorry to say, but I really think it is the result of a combination of children being more aware and adults not closing them off from the necessary tools/information.

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/oh-cuyahoga/cleveland-firefighters-to-give-updates-during-press-conference-on-two-firefighter-murders