My friends car sustained a bullet wound near W. 77 and Detroit. The automobile is still operational, despite the trauma.

 

Was that just today?  I was passing through Gordon Square and saw lots of police lights further west on Detroit.

 

I heard about it last night, so probably unrelated. Though on second thought, it's not out of the question there could be more bullet damage, or a related crime involved. Then you could see that triggering a broader investigation.

 

No this must have been something more active.  From what I can tell there were 8-10 cars all with lights on.  That wouldn't happen for a follow up investigation.  Will have to watch the blotter to see what it was.

Amber Alert:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/03/cleveland_police_searching_for_8.html#incart_m-rpt-1

How about that melee on public square during st. Patrick's day?  Wkyc has the story.  Apparently the cops did not ask for rtas footage for after a week later.  Starting to really question the police in this city.  Leadership too.  When is Joe Cimperman ever going to get behind a microphone and address some problems instead of being a ridiculous cheerleader?

How about that melee on public square during st. Patrick's day?  Wkyc has the story.  Apparently the cops did not ask for rtas footage for after a week later.  Starting to really question the police in this city.  Leadership too.  When is Joe Cimperman ever going to get behind a microphone and address some problems instead of being a ridiculous cheerleader?

 

Cleveland cops are the laziest SOBs you'll ever run across. I'm sure Eliot Ness is rolling in his Lakeview Cemetery grave.

How about that melee on public square during st. Patrick's day?  Wkyc has the story.  Apparently the cops did not ask for rtas footage for after a week later.  Starting to really question the police in this city.  Leadership too.  When is Joe Cimperman ever going to get behind a microphone and address some problems instead of being a ridiculous cheerleader?

 

I haven't seen the video, WKYC's site didn't load it (though the pre-commercial loaded just fine).  The witness descriptions sound like it was what used to be called "wilding", as opposed to a brawl like we saw in Valley View. 

 

Cimperman's useless when it comes to volatile issues like this, especially when some pressure groups might need to be told the police and/or society in general aren't the problem.  He'd rather tell restaurants what they can and cannot serve and get credit for "fixing" situations stirred up by his buddy Henry.  Existing leadership isn't much better, but the idea that he could ever be an effective mayor is ludicrous.  Art McKoy could do a better job, at least he's not a "feline".

 

The cops are hamstrung and demoralized.  They probably didn't ask for the video because it didn't tell them anything they don't already know.

How about that melee on public square during st. Patrick's day?  Wkyc has the story.  Apparently the cops did not ask for rtas footage for after a week later.  Starting to really question the police in this city.  Leadership too.  When is Joe Cimperman ever going to get behind a microphone and address some problems instead of being a ridiculous cheerleader?

 

Cleveland cops are the laziest SOBs you'll ever run across. I'm sure Eliot Ness is rolling in his Lakeview Cemetery grave.

 

This is becoming increasingly true, because the really motivated ones are transferring or retiring.  The problem is "leadership".

I watched that public square melee from my apt window. The kids looked like a bunch of animals, and it was very embarrassing. I tried to help the cops by pointing out who the ones who started it were, but there were just so many of them. I have no respect for anyone who gangs up on people like that. Ridiculous.

I watched that public square melee from my apt window. The kids looked like a bunch of animals, and it was very embarrassing. I tried to help the cops by pointing out who the ones who started it were, but there were just so many of them. I have no respect for anyone who gangs up on people like that. Ridiculous.

 

Were the victims random St. Patricks day celebrators?

I watched that public square melee from my apt window. The kids looked like a bunch of animals, and it was very embarrassing. I tried to help the cops by pointing out who the ones who started it were, but there were just so many of them. I have no respect for anyone who gangs up on people like that. Ridiculous.

 

Did it differ, in any way, from the assumptions a semi-clueless suburbanite might make having seen the story reported as it has been so far?

Cimperman's useless when it comes to volatile issues like this, especially when some pressure groups might need to be told the police and/or society in general aren't the problem.  He'd rather tell restaurants what they can and cannot serve and get credit for "fixing" situations stirred up by his buddy Henry. 

 

BTW, trust me when I say Senyak and Cimperman are not buddies. I worked with both when I was at Sun, and Senyak would call me ALL THE TIME with news, tips and general complaints. Some of his advocacy was useful, but he had his own axes to grind against bars, gentrification and general issues of nuisance (litter, graffiti, potholes, broken streetlights, etc). Some of his information was useful to me as a reporter, but some of it was clearly personal and against the tide of redevelopment which Cimperman champions. So to say Cimperman and Senyak are goombata could not be further from the truth. But to achieve their own purpose, one needs the other type of person to exist -- the councilman and the neighborhood busybody. One misstep, however, and one person would just as soon take the other one down.

especially when some pressure groups might need to be told the police and/or society in general aren't the problem.

 

This is an extremely taboo position to take in modern society.  Sacrilegious in some circles.

I watched that public square melee from my apt window. The kids looked like a bunch of animals, and it was very embarrassing. I tried to help the cops by pointing out who the ones who started it were, but there were just so many of them. I have no respect for anyone who gangs up on people like that. Ridiculous.

 

Were the victims random St. Patricks day celebrators?

 

 

Yes unfortunately. In this case, I feel race is a very important part of the story, so I will go there. The entire group was black (male and female) and they were targeting younger white males for their phones/wallets.

I watched that public square melee from my apt window. The kids looked like a bunch of animals, and it was very embarrassing. I tried to help the cops by pointing out who the ones who started it were, but there were just so many of them. I have no respect for anyone who gangs up on people like that. Ridiculous.

 

Were the victims random St. Patricks day celebrators?

 

 

Yes unfortunately. In this case, I feel race is a very important part of the story, so I will go there. The entire group was black (male and female) and they were targeting younger white males for their phones/wallets.

 

Sad to say I'm not surprised.  Around 5:45pm when I was walking to catch the Red Line I could sense that something no good was going to go down given the amount of youth congregating around Public Square with no purpose.  I have seen many of "riots", etc. happen around Public Square.  There were 5 or 6 officers trying to get them to disperse - and it looks like they did disperse a block down Euclid.  I'm not one that gets uneasy quickly - but there are MANY times when I feel completely unsafe while walking near public square. 

 

As positive of a direction I feel this city is heading - these type of stories are way too common in and around Public Square and has become the exact reason why I no longer bring my family downtown during large events.  There seems to be no controlling some of these youths. 

I'm not one that gets uneasy quickly - but there are MANY times when I feel completely unsafe while walking near public square. 

 

Maybe you just have bad luck. I never feel unsafe on Public Square, and my office is in Tower City so I'm on the square a lot. In fact, I love the energy of Public Square. It's probably the most big-city feeling I get anywhere in Cleveland. In fact, I'm about to post pictures from yesterday in the Public Square redevelopment thread.

I'm not one that gets uneasy quickly - but there are MANY times when I feel completely unsafe while walking near public square. 

 

Maybe you just have bad luck. I never feel unsafe on Public Square, and my office is in Tower City so I'm on the square a lot. In fact, I love the energy of Public Square. It's probably the most big-city feeling I get anywhere in Cleveland. In fact, I'm about to post pictures from yesterday in the Public Square redevelopment thread.

 

That's unfair.  The man is posting a reasonable fear of bringing his family to something he perceives as being unsafe.  He specifically mentions late in the day, and you respond as a single man, that he has must have bad luck because you feel safe taking pictures during the day?

I agree with KJP, I walk around downtown all the time and still feel safe...a lot of this stuff is wrong place at the wrong time.  Its sad that it exists, but Its hard to pinpoint trends of when to expect getting coldcocked.  Again, back to our leadership never having any answers for any of this

That's unfair.  The man is posting a reasonable fear of bringing his family to something he perceives as being unsafe.  He specifically mentions late in the day, and you respond as a single man, that he has must have bad luck because you feel safe taking pictures during the day?

 

What are some of the reasons why I posted those pictures? Because I'm deviously and maliciously trying to prove a point or because I took them yesterday and therefore had those pics (and that experience) at the forefront of my mind?

 

I have walked on Public Square late at night many times, and I probably even took pictures of that walk. I might have even kept them someplace. Point is, I feel safer on Public Square at night BECAUSE there are more people there than in other parts of downtown, such as the financial district, which turns into a neutron-bomb-aftermath zone after 7 p.m.

The key word here is events.  While not much may happen during routine times, and this sort of behavior is less likely during their peak, it's the "in between" immediately after that is being targetted by what amounts to predators. There's also the issue that it took this long to be reported.  Why?  Eventually it was going to come out.

 

Does anyone think this is not holding back, and even threatening, the development of downtown?

I think im mostly shocked that on a big stage like St. Patricks Day, our police force didn't tightly monitor large groups of teens.  I sure hope there are no shenanigans this weekend while we have a ton of NCAA basketball visitors.  Talk about a bad look

^^^No, I enjoy your photos.  I just don't want to tell someone not to worry, that they're just unlucky.  Like you said, I've never felt uncomfortable on the Square either.

^^^No, I enjoy your photos.  I just don't want to tell someone not to worry, that they're just unlucky.  Like you said, I've never felt uncomfortable on the Square either.

 

And I have met "unlucky" people. A friend of mine always seems to have the worst neighbors or sees incidents of crime more often than I do. And they're not figments of his imagination. They really did happen, and in my mind, that makes him unlucky. If I moved into my building right before the Summer of 2005 (when my car and others parked in our garage were broken into, when a young man living nearby viciously assaulted a kid next to my building and then went after the arriving police, when a man wanted for murder in Philadelphia was the target of a SWAT team incursion across the street from my building...), that would have been bad luck for me. And I probably wouldn't have stayed here long enough to see Fall 2005. But I moved here nine years of prior and had nine years of mostly positive experiences to know that the summer of 2005 wasn't normal.

 

If someone is seeing lots of nuisance incidents on Public Square and I'm not, and we're both on the square alot, the explanations of why aren't numerous. Either you're unlucky or I'm lucky. Or you're noticing them more than I am.

Unlucky?  More of a realist.  These unruly youths obviously cause enough problems that CPD/Transit Policy and Sherriff's find it necessary to place upwards of 6 patrol cars and mounted units along public square after the 3pm hour...they aren't there for the fun of it. 

Unlucky?  More of a realist.  These unruly youths obviously cause enough problems that CPD/Transit Policy and Sherriff's find it necessary to place upwards of 6 patrol cars and mounted units along public square after the 3pm hour...they aren't there for the fun of it. 

 

The problem is these youth do not care.  About anything.  Certainly not cops.  If they do get picked up, they are back home by 6 pm with a badge of honor to show off for their friends.  We need to start having REAL punishment for these teens.  Lock them up for a while.  Make them do labor.

 

Is it me, or didn't this happen for St Patricks day 2014 as well.  An unruly mob attack?  And other RTA incidents?  Seems like police should be seeing a pattern....

 

http://www.19actionnews.com/story/25043654/17-year-old-girl-victim-of-attack-on-rta-rapid

Yes, it is becoming the St. Patty's norm.  I guarantee you these kids weren't at the parade, weren't patronizing Downtown businesses, they just show up when they know there are lots of drunk people that they can pick fights with.  There needs to be a bigger police presence in the early evening hours- it gets real ugly down here around that time.  Same thing as what was happening in the Warehouse District a few years ago.

Another st patty's video released:  http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/local/cleveland/2015/03/27/melee-beating-violence-police-downtown/70565800/

Unlucky?  More of a realist.  These unruly youths obviously cause enough problems that CPD/Transit Policy and Sherriff's find it necessary to place upwards of 6 patrol cars and mounted units along public square after the 3pm hour...they aren't there for the fun of it. 

 

The problem is these youth do not care.  About anything.  Certainly not cops.  If they do get picked up, they are back home by 6 pm with a badge of honor to show off for their friends.  We need to start having REAL punishment for these teens.  Lock them up for a while.  Make them do labor.

 

Is it me, or didn't this happen for St Patricks day 2014 as well.  An unruly mob attack?  And other RTA incidents?  Seems like police should be seeing a pattern....

 

http://www.19actionnews.com/story/25043654/17-year-old-girl-victim-of-attack-on-rta-rapid

 

It depends on what they are picked up for. If they kill or severely injure someone they are not home by 6. If they are arrested for disorderly conduct, they might be home by 6....but so would you and me. The juvenile justice system as a whole might need some reform, but it can't be reformed only for a certain group of kids or based on who the victim is or where the crime is committed. These hooligans deserve severe punishment, but no different than if they "jumped" another kid at school and stole his wallet.... whatever that punishment may be.  Yet, complain all you want that the city is soft on this type of crime, I guarantee you if they're caught they will face a bevy of charges, such as aggravated rioting, inducing panic, etc, which kids in that other circumstance would probably never have to deal with. And when their charges are plead down to something more like what the kids from the other example would start the process with, people will cry foul

 

Again, before responding..... yes, they deserve to be punished.... severely punished

something really wrong with a group of people that assault a random person for the hell of it

Of course there is.... but not moreso IMO than a group of people who have a reason, such as race or sexual orientation or some other unjustified reason. I suppose it is an interesting question whether it's worse when a jumping is done for hate filled reasons or for no reason at all or here, if the accounts above are accurate, for purposes of stealing from the person getting jumped

Come on, don't be naive.  This group of kids didn't jump these guys for the $20 bucks in their wallet, split 10 ways.  It was done for the thrill of assaulting and humiliating someone.  We can even leave aside the fact that they were apparently going for white people.  This would be national news as a hate crime if this was groups of white people assaulting lone black people at random Downtown in broad daylight.  We'd have to undergo lectures about "how we still have a long way to go" and pointlessly hash through "our dialogue on race" yet again.

Naive?  Come on, don't try to patronize.  I didn't raise the question of race at all.  And I tried to give all three alternatives of (1) hate filled reasons (2) no reason at all (ie simply for the 'fun' of it) and (3) for the purposes of stealing from the victim (such as the stories are from the beaches of RdJ).  It is an interesting question which one is worse.

 

But since apparently race must be involved in the discourse and you're naive if you don't include it, I'd say the opposite situation is virtually impossible due to the socioeconomic status of the demographics in play. it would almost always have to be for hate filled reasons, and given the historical backdrop it would be a fair assumption to make and certainly newsworthy.  Can you realistically imagine the reverse situation here in America?  A large group of presumably poor white kids from the inner city mingling in an urban setting with mostly drunk suburban blacks.  I didn't think so.  Here, I doubt these kids were looking for any particular race in their victims. I'd bet each of those kids assaults more fellow blacks on any given day than than they do whites, Asians, Latinos, etc. 

 

I'd also bet that most of the assaults which occur on public square are black on black.  All that said, if it IS shown these kids were motivated by race, then throw the book at them I'd say.  What I'm unsure of is how the law applies if the victims were chosen based on the perceived wealth and/or vulnerability of their race (e.g the kids thought white people were easy victims).  That might fall within the contemplation of a 'hate' crime even though the actual motivation has nothing to do with hate

I didn't say you were being naive for thinking this wasn't primarily about race, it may or may not be, but for advancing money as the probable prime motivation for the crime. 

 

For the record, I think it was more about the thrill of hurting someone, and the fact that the victims were white and they took the one guys stuff was just part of the fun.  I don't know if that meets the definition for "hate crime", but I'd guess that if the races were reversed, there would be a large, national outcry that it does.

Of course there would be, for the reasons I stated above. And I wasn't advancing anything, but rather including what a witness to the events mentioned up thread amongst the potential motivations. Sorry, but large groups of economically disadvantaged youth causing chaos in a crowd for the purposes of snatching purses, wallets, cell phones, tablets is a major issue in Brazil right now. Hardly inconceivable that it might happen here

Most disturbing is not even the select few who are doing the sucker punching and robbing, but the youths... who may not be in association with the initial perpetrators... who see the need to jump on or get a kick on the obvious victim.  Degradation of society, comparable to other countries mentioned above.

 

 

 

Of course there would be, for the reasons I stated above. And I wasn't advancing anything, but rather including what a witness to the events mentioned up thread amongst the potential motivations. Sorry, but large groups of economically disadvantaged youth causing chaos in a crowd for the purposes of snatching purses, wallets, cell phones, tablets is a major issue in Brazil right now. Hardly inconceivable that it might happen here

 

I think it's a stretch to compare violent youths in Cleveland to poor violent kids in Brazil.  The kids in Cleveland appear to be doing it for a thrill, evidenced by recording it on their cell phones.  The kids in Brazil are probably stealing just to get a meal.  They can't imagine having a phone to record the violence on...

Of course there would be, for the reasons I stated above. And I wasn't advancing anything, but rather including what a witness to the events mentioned up thread amongst the potential motivations. Sorry, but large groups of economically disadvantaged youth causing chaos in a crowd for the purposes of snatching purses, wallets, cell phones, tablets is a major issue in Brazil right now. Hardly inconceivable that it might happen here

 

I think it's a stretch to compare violent youths in Cleveland to poor violent kids in Brazil.  The kids in Cleveland appear to be doing it for a thrill, evidenced by recording it on their cell phones.  The kids in Brazil are probably stealing just to get a meal.  They can't imagine having a phone to record the violence on...

 

Agreed, there is no comparison to Brazil. In Brazil, it's Brazilians attacking Brazilians.

 

In both of these case in downtown CLE, it is blacks attacking whites. What with all the different "types" of people around in both cases, why did the blacks choose whites to attack only? It seems obvious that these two incidents look like hate crimes against whites, but let the investigators figure it out if they can catch the attackers.

 

On the Racism thread there is a video of a white man being attacked by blacks on a transit train in St. Louis this past Monday.  Is this also a hate crime? The video shows only that one white person vs. many blacks were on the train. Why did the white man get attacked but no blacks?

 

And all three of the above incidents were not reported for days. Were they not reported for days by the news media do too the nature of the crimes? (blacks on whites vs. whites on blacks). It sure looks that way.

 

Just because the black young men of American are "frustrated" does not give them the right to commit a crime. Period! Whether it is a crime against other blacks, or whites, or anybody.

 

 

^That's a real courageous stand you're taking there with your second to last sentence.  :roll:

 

[Edited to correctly identify the sentence that invited my "like anyone is saying anything different" eye roll]

If the perpetrators of any crime are punished properly, there is no need for hate crime legislation.  It doesn't really matter the reason someone is dragged behind a car, or tied to a post and beaten.  Just punish the offenders justly.

^Shoot, I actually meant your second to last sentence.  I'm pretty iffy on "hate crime" classifications myself.

I'm not biting. I still think this BCCLE1 character is a plant from some batsh!t crazy liberal wingnut organization

IS anyone willing to ponder where this gang came from? Someone mentioned they were students on Cleveland dot com or do you think they just went downtown to cause problems on St Patricks day?

I'm not biting. I still think this BCCLE1 character is a plant from some batsh!t crazy liberal wingnut organization

 

"Thanks" for respecting others views Hts121. I appreciate it. HA! HA!

I don't have to respect 'your' views which I don't view as worthy of respect.... particularly your stated views on gays and blacks.  But again, you're not fooling me ;)

If the perpetrators of any crime are punished properly, there is no need for hate crime legislation.  It doesn't really matter the reason someone is dragged behind a car, or tied to a post and beaten.  Just punish the offenders justly.

 

Agreed.  "Hate crime" legislation simply means politically incorrect crimes are punished more harshly than others.  It's the flip side of the criminalization of dissent.  The two together consititute the politicization of law enforcement, an extremely dangerous trend.

 

Why wasn't this publicized sooner?  Two words:  Sweet Sixteen.

Hate crimes separate out the mental state of the offender. If you are going to get rid of them then why not get rid of different degrees of murder?  A murder would be a murder regardless of whether it was pre-meditated or not

Hate crimes separate out the mental state of the offender. If you are going to get rid of them then why not get rid of different degrees of murder?  A murder would be a murder regardless of whether it was pre-meditated or not

So what we're saying is killing an acquaintance is somehow less henious than killing someone because of their race?

 

The problem is we are once again applying political standards to crimes.

Here's something the local media isn't touching at all, but is making the rounds through social media.  I've already seen it from both largely urban Facebook groups, and fellow ex-Maple people.

 

The "IX Indoor Amusement Park" is seriously plagued with teen fights, and what can only be called bullying behavior, and it is much worse than even last year.

Hate crimes separate out the mental state of the offender. If you are going to get rid of them then why not get rid of different degrees of murder?  A murder would be a murder regardless of whether it was pre-meditated or not

 

"A murder would be a murder regardless of whether it was pre-meditated or not". This is a wrong statement because all murder is pre-meditated, there is no "or not".

 

Murder and Kill have been so intertwined in society/the news/etc., that people think they are one and the same. They are not, and our government recognizes this. That is why there are different laws for murdering someone vs killing someone.

File Charges against Officers Timothy Loehmann and Officer Frank Gramback

http://www.change.org/p/3066091?recruiter=187884701&utm_campaign=signature_receipt_fb_dialog&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=share_petition

File Charges against Officers Timothy Loehmann and Officer Frank Gramback

http://www.change.org/p/3066091?recruiter=187884701&utm_campaign=signature_receipt_fb_dialog&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=share_petition

 

Change.org is not correct in stating that Tamir Rice was "minding his own business". The reason the police were called out to Cudell Recreation Center that day was because Tamir was pointing the "gun" he had at others. If Tamir would not have pointed the "gun" at anyone that day, the police probably would not have been called.

 

I do not have a verdict yet in my mind as to whether the police involved with the events of that day are not guilty/guilty, or should be charged with a crime. I have seen the video many times, and I do question why Tamir's life was taken in less than a second after the one officer was out of the patrol car, but unless ALL the evidence is presented to me, I am not going to sign any petition. Let law enforcement, and the judicial system do its due-diligence.

And you have that right not to sign. I haven't signed either. I think most petitions are a waste of time. But if someone cares enough about this case, they should have that option.