I realize emotion plays a big part for many people, but you're more likely to die from cancer from too many sunburns or heart disease eating too much fatty American food than from violent crime.

 

And yes, violent crime is up in many US cities one of the factors most certainly bumping up the violent crime nationwide is the increase in heroin usage and trafficking. It's affecting the suburbs and cities nationwide.....

 

Several big U.S. cities see homicide rates surge

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/07/09/us-cities-homicide-surge-2015/29879091/

I realize emotion plays a big part for many people, but you're more likely to die from cancer from too many sunburns or heart disease eating too much fatty American food than from violent crime.

 

And yes, violent crime is up in many US cities one of the factors most certainly bumping up the violent crime nationwide is the increase in heroin usage and trafficking. It's affecting the suburbs and cities nationwide.....

 

That's a terrible analogy to use when discussing crime in Cleveland's inner-city neighborhoods, or any city at that.  A bad, dis-advantaged, or depressed neighborhood is not defined by simply stating how many people are killed or severely beaten in that neighborhood.  It's not defined by just the violent crimes that are news-worthy.  The nuisance crimes such as theft, arson, drug dealing, prostitution, home neglect, dis-respect along with all many others are what makes a neighborhood rough for raising a family which forced many out.  The nuisance crimes are then like "gateway drugs" to the more violent crimes that occur.  I make the choice that I don't want my kids to see these nuisance crimes, or be in the presence of groups that constantly carry out these crimes.  I don't want my kids to see the windows of are car smashed in, or our front door kicked down, or our dog killed.  My father witnessed all of that growing up on Lamontier and Woodhill back in the 60's, and wouldn't recommend subjecting kids to that. 

 

I want this Cleveland's neighborhoods to come back and be stronger than ever, and they will have to compete with suburbs to do that.  I think is some instances, it is working.  What all need to understand is families, since the founding of this city, have been seeking a "suburban", or "new-feeling" lifestyle.  My Dad always says when his parents moved to Lamontier from the Tri-C corporate college area, that was like moving out to Brunswick in today's standards.  It's not just the folks of the 70's up to today that have abandon neighborhoods for greener pastures, it was occurring way before then.  116th and Kinsman were greener pastures at one time not that long ago.  We need to remember that a suburb is also not just defined by the name of a city, or a place geographically, or a particular distance from a metro regions center city. 

I realize emotion plays a big part for many people, but you're more likely to die from cancer from too many sunburns or heart disease eating too much fatty American food than from violent crime.

 

And yes, violent crime is up in many US cities one of the factors most certainly bumping up the violent crime nationwide is the increase in heroin usage and trafficking. It's affecting the suburbs and cities nationwide.....

 

That's a terrible analogy to use when discussing crime in Cleveland's inner-city neighborhoods, or any city at that.  A bad, dis-advantaged, or depressed neighborhood is not defined by simply stating how many people are killed or severely beaten in that neighborhood.  It's not defined by just the violent crimes that are news-worthy.  The nuisance crimes such as theft, arson, drug dealing, prostitution, home neglect, dis-respect along with all many others are what makes a neighborhood rough for raising a family which forced many out.  The nuisance crimes are then like "gateway drugs" to the more violent crimes that occur.  I make the choice that I don't want my kids to see these nuisance crimes, or be in the presence of groups that constantly carry out these crimes.  I don't want my kids to see the windows of are car smashed in, or our front door kicked down, or our dog killed.  My father witnessed all of that growing up on Lamontier and Woodhill back in the 60's, and wouldn't recommend subjecting kids to that. 

 

I want this Cleveland's neighborhoods to come back and be stronger than ever, and they will have to compete with suburbs to do that.  I think is some instances, it is working.  What all need to understand is families, since the founding of this city, have been seeking a "suburban", or "new-feeling" lifestyle.  My Dad always says when his parents moved to Lamontier from the Tri-C corporate college area, that was like moving out to Brunswick in today's standards.  It's not just the folks of the 70's up to today that have abandon neighborhoods for greener pastures, it was occurring way before then.  116th and Kinsman were greener pastures at one time not that long ago.  We need to remember that a suburb is also not just defined by the name of a city, or a place geographically, or a particular distance from a metro regions center city. 

 

Yep, and the moves from Slavic Village to Maple Heights represented the same thing.  The desire for elbow room is a natural tendency among Americans, it seems.

Density in living conditions is seen as a positive for a significant minority, and they are indeed those who establish the neighborhoods urbanists love.  But for most people, it is seen as a negative, but a part of a tradeoff with other factors such as convenience and cost. 

 

A city that accepts this, that embraces the tendency to sprawl while maintaining the connection between the sprawlers and the places that make the city a great one, has a better chance of thriving.  Taking into account their views on crime is a big part of this.

It's a pointless discussion unless we stop externalizing costs of sprawl living onto the public sector, including urban residents who pay taxes to have their communities destroyed. If those who enjoyed their sprawl paid for the costs of their sprawl, I suspect we'd see inching outmigration like what existed under laissez faire until the New Deal era arrived, not the galloping outmigration that emptied our cities thereafter.

 

And to bring this back to crime, when 74% of available jobs have moved to beyond the reach of a 90-minutes one-way transit ride (per Brookings), the increase in crime is understandable. And so people keep running from it, taking their jobs with them and dragging the blight and crime outward in their wake. At some point, you have to turn around and make a stand, or hopscotch over it to repopulate the hollow shell left behind, unless Greater Cleveland expands to Pennsylvania and Mansfield which would be a tragedy for jobs access and sense of community.

WTF??

 

WEWS NewsChannel5 ‏@WEWS  12m12 minutes ago

18-year-old Quicken Loans Arena employee assaulted by group of 50 while walking downtown http://on.wews.com/1IAADaX

I've never felt unsafe living downtown, but lately I've been wondering if that sense of security is unfounded

The "wrong place at wrong time" theory is ALWAYS in effect in Cleveland.  I feel safe in my neighborhood and I feel safe downtown, but there really is no place you could be immune to something happening.  The thing is, the police are just reactive.  There is no structure to where they go and the police force is too slim to cover all areas of the city.  I still wish they would use more analytics, more decoys more proactive schemes to nail criminals.  They just zoom around the city and respond.  A group of 50-75 should at least have a set of eyes on them.

I've never felt unsafe living downtown either but there have been some weird incidents this summer.  If it's any comfort, it doesn't seem like any of the crime has been random.  What makes it all the more stranger is the fact that there always seems to be a very visible police presence downtown, which unfortunately isn't a strong enough deterrent for some.  But personally, I have lived downtown for years now and have never witnessed any violent crime or been "sketched out."

 

It seems like a lot of investigation could be helped with the use of CCTV cameras.  I'm not sure why all of downtown isn't wired up by now.  Even if it doesn't deter much initially, it could go a long way in identifying license plate numbers, faces, and public transit vehicles criminals may leave on.

The "wrong place at wrong time" theory is ALWAYS in effect in Cleveland. 

 

As it is in any big city....

I've never felt unsafe living downtown, but lately I've been wondering if that sense of security is unfounded

 

It’s not. 

 

Indeed, over the next twelve months it is going to get safer, perhaps at the expense of safety in the neighborhoods.

 

It has to, and we all know why.  There are enough smart and effective people in city government to make that happen, with full support, and enough of the rest know how critical that is. 

 

At this time next year, Cleveland’s national reputation will be boosted by an order of magnitude, or severely damaged.   

 

There’s no in between.

 

I'm optimistic, right now. 

 

I've never felt unsafe living downtown either but there have been some weird incidents this summer.  If it's any comfort, it doesn't seem like any of the crime has been random.  What makes it all the more stranger is the fact that there always seems to be a very visible police presence downtown, which unfortunately isn't a strong enough deterrent for some.  But personally, I have lived downtown for years now and have never witnessed any violent crime or been "sketched out."

 

It seems like a lot of investigation could be helped with the use of CCTV cameras.  I'm not sure why all of downtown isn't wired up by now.  Even if it doesn't deter much initially, it could go a long way in identifying license plate numbers, faces, and public transit vehicles criminals may leave on.

 

If it is, it's not going to be general knowledge until at least after the convention.

Horrible weekend for downtown crime. There was also a shooting outside the Tilted Kilt at 11 pm Saturday night. While that seemed gang related, a stray bullet could have easily struck passer-bys or patrons in outdoor patios along Prospect. What's more disconcerting is that no suspects were arrested on scene which only further emboldens criminals. Also, the lack of well lit streets (a number of street lights around Public Square during construction have been out) and lack of cops on foot or bicycle patrol downtown are huge concerns. My downtown roommate from DC is thinking about moving to Lakewood after our lease is up.

^ yeah the fact that happened at Onatrio and Prospect is really bad.  A few more of the incidents and I wouldn't be surprised if the restaurants and landlords start seeing economic repercussions.

^ Not to mention the shooting at Muni Lot on Saturday.

 

Also, there was a robbery right outside of Fenn Tower at CSU on East 24th Street last Thursday at 10:30am, right in broad daylight in a normally high traffic area.

Horrible weekend for downtown crime. There was also a shooting outside the Tilted Kilt at 11 pm Saturday night. While that seemed gang related, a stray bullet could have easily struck passer-bys or patrons in outdoor patios along Prospect. What's more disconcerting is that no suspects were arrested on scene which only further emboldens criminals. Also, the lack of well lit streets (a number of street lights around Public Square during construction have been out) and lack of cops on foot or bicycle patrol downtown are huge concerns. My downtown roommate from DC is thinking about moving to Lakewood after our lease is up.

 

If the TK shooting was gang related, that's not good.  Typically they keep their nonsense out of downtown.

Horrible weekend for downtown crime. There was also a shooting outside the Tilted Kilt at 11 pm Saturday night. While that seemed gang related, a stray bullet could have easily struck passer-bys or patrons in outdoor patios along Prospect. What's more disconcerting is that no suspects were arrested on scene which only further emboldens criminals. Also, the lack of well lit streets (a number of street lights around Public Square during construction have been out) and lack of cops on foot or bicycle patrol downtown are huge concerns. My downtown roommate from DC is thinking about moving to Lakewood after our lease is up.

 

I was listening to the police scanner yesterday evening--there was also another incidence of a roving gang of juveniles playing knock out.  At least one adult injured, and the 5th St Arcade security grabbed a suspect for CPD. 

I hate to say it, but all of these incidents seemed to have happened on the weekend of Puerto Rican festival. I am not saying that specific group of people is responsible, but this event seems to have caused some troubles in an otherwise safe area. There's no way the two are not connected somehow.

I hate to say it, but all of these incidents seemed to have happened on the weekend of Puerto Rican festival. I am not saying that specific group of people is responsible, but this event seems to have caused some troubles in an otherwise safe area. There's no way the two are not connected somehow.

 

We haven't mentioned the shooting at the festival yet.....but I' not convinced the other ones are connected.

Sunday's Warehouse District Festival and Friday's Night Market both felt very safe. But there were a noticeable number of muscle cars speeding around downtown with Puerto Rican flags and passengers sticking out the windows. It would be nice to see downtown crime stats reported to give context to the issue.

I hate to say it, but all of these incidents seemed to have happened on the weekend of Puerto Rican festival. I am not saying that specific group of people is responsible, but this event seems to have caused some troubles in an otherwise safe area. There's no way the two are not connected somehow.

 

Except, and I could be wrong, but I believe in Cleveland anyway, the knockout game and gang related crime are pretty much only seen from the black community.  I know in DC there were large Latin Gangs, but they were not Peurto Rican, plus they tended to not rob people, just inflcit violence on one another. 

 

Or do you just mean that because the Peurto Rican Festival was "Free" that "outsiders" came into downtown to cause trouble as they have with nearly every other "free" festival, in the east inner ring that is.   

^Depends on what you define  as "gang related crime"...... and I'm not so sure we have seen much of the 'knockout game' here in Cleveland.  There have been some assaults involving black youth, but that is not always the result of this game you hear so much about.

Oh Geez.  Come on.  Lets not blame the Puerto Rican Festival.  A.) This thing has been going on for years and there are not incidents.  This year there was a bad egg in the crowd and I bet the other 99.99% of the people enjoying the festival were very pissed about that.  b.).  You cant just throw Puerto Rican festival out there because they drive muscle cars with flags hanging out of them.  I have several neighbors who are Puerto Rican, they are a loud culture, when they celebrate, they like to celebrate loudly.  Don't confuse being loud with being dangerous.  That's not a fair thing to just link the incidents at the Tilted Kilt and Q to that festival

I hate to say it, but all of these incidents seemed to have happened on the weekend of Puerto Rican festival. I am not saying that specific group of people is responsible, but this event seems to have caused some troubles in an otherwise safe area. There's no way the two are not connected somehow.

 

Except, and I could be wrong, but I believe in Cleveland anyway, the knockout game and gang related crime are pretty much only seen from the black community.  I know in DC there were large Latin Gangs, but they were not Peurto Rican, plus they tended to not rob people, just inflcit violence on one another. 

 

Or do you just mean that because the Peurto Rican Festival was "Free" that "outsiders" came into downtown to cause trouble as they have with nearly every other "free" festival, in the east inner ring that is.   

 

What I've heard is that sometime during the 90s, some of the bigger Hispanic gangs (mostly Mexican, some Puerto Ricans and Cubans) decided to follow and enforce rules regarding families and bystanders close to those practiced by the Italian mafia:  in other words don't target them.   

 

MS-13 flouts this, but we don't see them much up here.

^Depends on what you define  as "gang related crime"...... and I'm not so sure we have seen much of the 'knockout game' here in Cleveland.  There have been some assaults involving black youth, but that is not always the result of this game you hear so much about.

 

2 of the above incidents from this weekend were reported as likely being as such (above).  The shooting being "likely gang related" (not at all uncommon), and the report of the Knockout game, which we saw on St. Patricks day (and seems largely confined to downtowns).       

^I saw the video of St. Patrick's day and that didn't seem like the knockout game.

I don't even believe that the knock out game is a real thing.  I believed it is a ginned up description of violent assaults that have existed since the beginning of time.  It is a term generally used by the cleveland.bomb crowd.  It is tinged with xenophobia and racism.  IMHO

Yup, mention of the knockout game is xenophobic.....?

The knockout game is likely a myth.

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2013/11/25/why_the_knockout_game_trend_is_a_myth.html

Whatever it was, the description on the police scanner from dispatch was a "large group of black juveniles, assaulting random victims."

 

If you never tune in, have a listen:  http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/11446

^ Xenophobia!!!!!!

It's real..... but, contrary to popular belief, it is much more frequent in black-on-black assaults in the ghettos/projects than it is on 'polar bears'...... that whole 'polar bear hunting' thing is something that maybe one person said once and it spread like wildfire.

One thing the scanner doesn't give is the race of the alleged victims.....

http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/local/cleveland/2015/08/03/cleveland-crime-rates-2015/31083821/

 

WKYC has a brief report on downtown crime with a few statistics thrown in. Seems like robberies and assaults are almost even with last year, and an increase would be expected given the larger crowds downtown for the Cavs playoff run. However, I wish CPD would assign additional officers to walk the downtown beat or patrol by bicycle, so they have a more visible presence vs being in cars.

^A higher police presence is always welcome, but you have to keep in mind that sending more resources downtown depletes the manpower in other areas of the City.  What is probably a more realistic option is to somehow get more funding for DCA to increase the presence of the ambassadors...... they provide a visible presence and also more eyes on the street to report things to police if need be.

http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/local/cleveland/2015/08/03/cleveland-crime-rates-2015/31083821/

 

WKYC has a brief report on downtown crime with a few statistics thrown in. Seems like robberies and assaults are almost even with last year, and an increase would be expected given the larger crowds downtown for the Cavs playoff run. However, I wish CPD would assign additional officers to walk the downtown beat or patrol by bicycle, so they have a more visible presence vs being in cars.

 

On the other hand, you can get more of them to a location quickly if there is a problem if they are in cars.

^A higher police presence is always welcome, but you have to keep in mind that sending more resources downtown depletes the manpower in other areas of the City.  What is probably a more realistic option is to somehow get more funding for DCA to increase the presence of the ambassadors...... they provide a visible presence and also more eyes on the street to report things to police if need be.

 

This is probably the best approach, while they do not deter those bent on trouble they can certainly alert those who may.

 

It's inevitable and probably unavoidable that during the next year downtown will see more police presence than the neighborhoods.  We'll see a preview of that this week.

^Yes..... but that will be treated like any other special event.  They will hire additional manpower through the use of overtime and/or auxiliary officers (does Cleveland have auxiliary officers?).  They won't take officers out of Central or Hough or any other neighborhood to cover downtown.

^Yes..... but that will be treated like any other special event.  They will hire additional manpower through the use of overtime and/or auxiliary officers (does Cleveland have auxiliary officers?).  They won't take officers out of Central or Hough or any other neighborhood to cover downtown.

 

They may, for the convention.  Or "borrow" cops from suburbs.

Just tell me im completely off base...but I think my questions are reasonable.

 

Has the city of Cleveland done a demand study for the number of police needed?  Especially with whats taking place in Ohio City lately, its clear there is just not enough presence.  Why cant they increase the force.  Even if its adding 2-3 more patrol per shift per district?  Why is this unfathomable? And then someone will say money?  Well I just saw the City of Cleveland give the Browns $21 million for scoreboard upgrades last year.  If my math serves me correctly, $21 Million spent on a bump in policemen for even just THREE YEARS as we continue to transition our city back, would be significant assuming around $60,000 salary and benefits per policeman.  Im sure ill hear that its not practical and its against regimen.  Until we start doing things differently, I don't know if the police supply will ever stay up with the demand. 

^wasn't the scoreboard improvements at Browns Stadium paid for through the sin tax that was rammed through/passed by voters?

 

And the true cost of a police officer is much more than $60k when you add up all the salary, benefits, retirement, training, uniforms, equipment, etc. 

^Patrolmen start at $45K per year.  They get maybe another $1000 in uniform allowance and when you add in health insurance and retirement contributions, $60K is probably not that far off..... at least in the short term prior to step increases kicking in.  The numbers you see tossed about online by those claiming public employees are overpaid take into account averages for the entire department, which would include the top brass, and/or averages over the entire county, which would factor in the higher paying suburban officers.  Another factor which drives up that "true cost" figure is overtime, which increased manpower obviously reduces the need for.

^wasn't the scoreboard improvements at Browns Stadium paid for through the sin tax that was rammed through/passed by voters?

 

And the true cost of a police officer is much more than $60k when you add up all the salary, benefits, retirement, training, uniforms, equipment, etc. 

 

I don't believe so.  I believe that extended sin tax was different things for all three teams.  Im pretty Jackson tapped into a "reserve fund" for the $21 Million for the renovations.  If they want to do that, fine.  But how you could not throw "reserve fund" money directly at the police force to keep residents more safe.  The police force currently in place just cannot cover the ground at the moment.  I feel sorry for the people in Ohio City. its just a playground for criminals to take stuff currently.  People desperately want to get back into the city and make a difference and live, work, play there.  But a couple years of crime not slowing at all, people will eventually get worn down, exhausted and say forget it. 

^wasn't the scoreboard improvements at Browns Stadium paid for through the sin tax that was rammed through/passed by voters?

 

And the true cost of a police officer is much more than $60k when you add up all the salary, benefits, retirement, training, uniforms, equipment, etc. 

 

I don't believe so.  I believe that extended sin tax was different things for all three teams.  Im pretty Jackson tapped into a "reserve fund" for the $21 Million for the renovations.  If they want to do that, fine.  But how you could not throw "reserve fund" money directly at the police force to keep residents more safe.  The police force currently in place just cannot cover the ground at the moment.  I feel sorry for the people in Ohio City. its just a playground for criminals to take stuff currently.  People desperately want to get back into the city and make a difference and live, work, play there.  But a couple years of crime not slowing at all, people will eventually get worn down, exhausted and say forget it. 

 

Unfortunately, it's politics that makes those decisions.  Police are an unpopular expense for parts of the electorate.  It's not so much that they favor crime and lawlessness, but they think the cops are unfairly targetting their "misunderstood" relatives....many of which are understood perfectly well..... by the police.

 

This goes so far back it helped trigger sprawl in the first place....

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/woman-kidnapped-in-cleveland-reportedly-texted-boss-asking-for-help

 

Unless I'm mistaken, W. 52nd and Fields is a bit sketchy.

 

W. 134th is not, by any means....

Just tell me im completely off base...but I think my questions are reasonable.

 

Has the city of Cleveland done a demand study for the number of police needed?  Especially with whats taking place in Ohio City lately, its clear there is just not enough presence.  Why cant they increase the force.  Even if its adding 2-3 more patrol per shift per district?  Why is this unfathomable? And then someone will say money?  Well I just saw the City of Cleveland give the Browns $21 million for scoreboard upgrades last year.  If my math serves me correctly, $21 Million spent on a bump in policemen for even just THREE YEARS as we continue to transition our city back, would be significant assuming around $60,000 salary and benefits per policeman.  Im sure ill hear that its not practical and its against regimen.  Until we start doing things differently, I don't know if the police supply will ever stay up with the demand. 

 

Get rid of the double-dipping council members and top-heavy management of every department, and we could afford another 100 officers.    Time to clean house.

^ Not just double dipping council members, but also double dipping administration members. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Mike McGrath and Marty Flask currently double dipping?

Just tell me im completely off base...but I think my questions are reasonable.

 

Has the city of Cleveland done a demand study for the number of police needed?  Especially with whats taking place in Ohio City lately, its clear there is just not enough presence.  Why cant they increase the force.  Even if its adding 2-3 more patrol per shift per district?  Why is this unfathomable? And then someone will say money?  Well I just saw the City of Cleveland give the Browns $21 million for scoreboard upgrades last year.  If my math serves me correctly, $21 Million spent on a bump in policemen for even just THREE YEARS as we continue to transition our city back, would be significant assuming around $60,000 salary and benefits per policeman.  Im sure ill hear that its not practical and its against regimen.  Until we start doing things differently, I don't know if the police supply will ever stay up with the demand. 

 

Get rid of the double-dipping council members and top-heavy management of every department, and we could afford another 100 officers.    Time to clean house.

 

That frees up money.  It does not automatically direct it to the police.

 

Parts of the electorate will prefer to spend the money elsewhere.

Joe Cimperman tweeted a link earlier today about an initiative to raise $30k for safety cameras in Ohio City. They weren't specific as to where the cameras would be placed only saying that they would be accompanied by signage. Thoughts?

 

https://www.razoo.com/story/Ohio-City-Safety-Camera-Initiative

Excellent idea.