Foot patrols and community policing have been shown to have positive effects on crime and community relations.

There are very good reasons for no chase policies.  And I don't believe that CPD has a blanket no chase policy.

 

Sure seems that way.  The only chase I know of during the last few months was the Amber Alert case the other day.  Meanwhile you have west suburban forces chasing perps all the way into East Cleveland.

 

Not that long ago, I was leaving for work and got to watch the entire Euclid PD chase a van into the back of the (Lakeshore) Dave's parking lot after they did a smash and grab over there.  CPD cars were not involved but were lurking around, sort of like hyenas watching lions.  If they care about their job, and most do, they had to be pist.

 

Especially since the same guys hit two places in Cleveland that night and could not be pursued.

is a smash and grab worth putting the community in jeopardy for?

is a smash and grab worth putting the community in jeopardy for?

 

Is allowing criminals to get away with a crime safe for the community?

^ Please don't answer a question with a question.

^ Please don't answer a question with a question.

 

Get over it. It's just as relevant a question, maybe even more so then your guestion.

It really isn't at all.  If you'd like to address my question, I will address yours.

here's some evidence based information on police pursuits from the FBI:

 

https://leb.fbi.gov/2010/march/evidence-based-decisions-on-police-pursuits-the-officers-perspective

Honestly, the CPD was shiite even before the consent decree.  The consent decree might actually be what they need to get their act together.

 

I wouldn't go that far.  They are indeed understaffed and the City itself poses many challenges which preclude effective order-maintenance policing.  Most of the worst neighborhood no longer have the density or design to allow for foot patrols.  There's no easy solution, consent decree or not. 

The "worst" neighborhoods, I would say, need car patrols.  Both because of protection, the things they can bring along, and so that mutual support can arrive quickly.

 

Foot patrols are good for downtown, though I'm a big believer in the value of horse patrols.

 

I see far too many fat and out of shape police officers. Not in Cleveland but in general. Police are also lazy as hell and inattentive, ever since the invention of the smart phone.

 

CPD seems particularly lazy, to me. I think there should be mandatory bike and foot patrol in every neighborhood, to get them some exercise and force them to have to engage in their surroundings instead of just waiting to be dispatched. Like make them do 1 shift a week on foot or bike and rotate. On foot or bike, they might actually get a better sense of nearby suspicious activity. I know it's a dangerous job and their safety is important too, but they signed up for it. They could patrol in pairs on foot or bike if safety is such an issue.

 

A former coworker of mine had a second job as a part time Cleveland PD officer. She got paid $22 an hour to sit in her parked cruiser and swipe through her Facebook newsfeed all night. Such a waste of taxpayer money.

 

I've never heard about this issue being addressed, where cops are always playing on their phones in their car while they're supposed to be patrolling. I see it all the time. Hell, when Homeland Security was here for the RNC, they were doing the same thing, at the rapid stations they were patrolling. A giant group of federal marshals literally huddled in a circle and staring down at their phones. It looks unprofessional and it's sort of insulting when you see that and know your taxes are paying their salary and that of their supervisors who clearly don't care either.

 

There's so many jobs out there where you're not allowed to play on your phone during your shift. You'd think Active Duty Police Officer would be one of those jobs...

Yes, smash and grabs can and should be pursued. It's a quality of life issue which can drag an entire neighborhood down, and one that lately has become quite violent. There is a reason many businesses now post concrete bollards outside of their building. To top it off, the city is facing violent takeover-style bank robberies which are the most dangerous robberies that one can face. Should we just let them go since no one is technically getting hurt?

 

Look at the ATM smash-and-grab examples. The perps that was doing the vast majority earlier in the year and last year were stealing vans off of the street and from used car lots (potentially injuring or maiming individuals). They were then ramming them into buildings, potentially injuring innocent bystanders. It was all traced to a notorious gang and when that was busted, a significant number of people went to jail. Did anyone die? No. But it was escalating quickly.

is a smash and grab worth putting the community in jeopardy for?

 

Is a bank robbery?

Is jay walking?

 

See I can play this game too.

Yes, smash and grabs can and should be pursued. It's a quality of life issue which can drag an entire neighborhood down, and one that lately has become quite violent. There is a reason many businesses now post concrete bollards outside of their building. To top it off, the city is facing violent takeover-style bank robberies which are the most dangerous robberies that one can face. Should we just let them go since no one is technically getting hurt?

 

Look at the ATM smash-and-grab examples. The perps that was doing the vast majority earlier in the year and last year were stealing vans off of the street and from used car lots (potentially injuring or maiming individuals). They were then ramming them into buildings, potentially injuring innocent bystanders. It was all traced to a notorious gang and when that was busted, a significant number of people went to jail. Did anyone die? No. But it was escalating quickly.

 

If I had read this first it would have saved me a post.

 

Most Walgreens have a Huntington ATM inside.  Not the one by me.

 

In addition, if one city makes it a lot easier to get away than another, where do more crimes happen?

Is jay walking?

 

See I can play this game too.

 

There's a line for sure, I was irked to say the least when Maple Heights PD chased a guy down my street for housing code stuff.

 

I would say "felony" makes a good line.

but if that line is moved somewhere else, why would that be ham stringing the dept.  what if the depts used evidence based guidance and trained their officers that way.  This is what Jefferson Beuregard Sessions III is against.

I have to agree. Looking at the big picture, it would overall be better for the community if those were pursued. You're going to end up with a lot of criminals who are aware that they can get away with what they're doing. They'll continue doing it and more criminals will be incentivized to start committing these crimes.

 

^ research does not bear that out.  The FBI disagrees.

I have to agree. Looking at the big picture, it would overall be better for the community if those were pursued. You're going to end up with a lot of criminals who are aware that they can get away with what they're doing. They'll continue doing it and more criminals will be incentivized to start committing these crimes.

 

 

This is reasonable, but there's a real empirical question out there about the point at which the value of the marginal likelihood of apprehension via hot pursuit vs later investigation and the ostensible deterrence effect of visible pursuits exceed the costs of high speed chases. This is a tough one to answer from mere intuition. There are very real costs to high speed chases. Thousands of dead bystanders over the decades and tens of thousands of injuries.

The article states that "Further, 1 out of every 100 high-speed pursuits results in a fatality.2 "

 

That's a little hard to believe... Especially when they admit that the vast majority of those pursuits are from traffic violations.

it is cited.  there's no need to "believe" it.  It just is.

I have to agree. Looking at the big picture, it would overall be better for the community if those were pursued. You're going to end up with a lot of criminals who are aware that they can get away with what they're doing. They'll continue doing it and more criminals will be incentivized to start committing these crimes.

 

 

Its become a free for all because they know they will not be pursued and they have also become more brazen and violent as a result.  Its been indicated over and over again. 

it is cited.  there's no need to "believe" it.  It just is.

 

Well, honestly, they signed up for a dangerous job. Crazy how cops can relish in the valor and admiration (and discounts at restaurants) to sit in their cruiser and play Pokémon Go most of the day. Of course those pursuits are dangerous. Officers lose their lives doing other things beside pursuits, too. No one forced them to be police officers.

Innocent people due in crashea too.  Seems frivolous for a smash n grab if you ask me

You keep stating that it is "cited" but have not produced a citation. Just curious - what data are you basing this on? I'm interested in learning more about this particular issue.

 

But where do you draw the line for pursuit? Most of these minor crimes become bigger issues when they are repeated. They are often escalated in terms of violence and scope. It's no secret that crime is spreading from Cleveland's east side into Shaker Heights, Cleveland Heights and surrounding inner-ring suburbs who all have different policing standards. There is a reason you don't see ATV's and dirt-bike gangs rearing up Woodland in Shaker Heights and Beechwood, whereas they have all but overtaken the east side of Cleveland.

I posted a link above.  There is a lot of information put there.  Many best practices.

I'm not sure it's fair to call CPD "lazy". 

 

Then Loomis should have kept his mouth shut when he used the word "lazy" with me to describe the rank-and-file members. He told me that when I worked for Sun Newspapers and covered the Cleveland crime beat.

It's no secret that crime is spreading from Cleveland's east side into Shaker Heights, Cleveland Heights and surrounding inner-ring suburbs who all have different policing standards. There is a reason you don't see ATV's and dirt-bike gangs rearing up Woodland in Shaker Heights and Beechwood, whereas they have all but overtaken the east side of Cleveland.

 

I've literally seen those dirt bike gangs speeding and popping wheelies all the way to North Moreland from Larchmere by Shaker Square (the border and technically still Cleveland) and then turning back around at that point.

 

Is crime really growing in Shaker and Cleveland Hts? There seems to be a lot of hoop-lah about it but no evidence (from what I've seen.) I've noticed from multiple message boards/news groups - there's always a bunch of people complaining that Shaker Heights has gone downhill and isn't 'what it used to be'. Then there's people who complain about those people, claiming they don't know what they're talking about and I personally side with them. Shaker Heights seems very safe to me, in all of it's neighborhoods.

 

It's funny because my dad grew up in Shaker, in the late 1960s through 1970s on Lomond and he literally has no fond memories of growing up in Shaker Heights. All of his friends in Columbus are all like, "Oh you're from Shaker - how la-di-da... that's like the richest part of Cleveland." For him, Lomond neighborhood was actually kind of a rough place to have to live in back then. Having to fight with neighborhood kids all the time and his stuff getting stolen left and right.  I have a hard time believing that Shaker is getting worse. If anything, it seems to be better than it used to be - at least over the long term. The Lomond neighborhood where he grew up (and all of the others, for that matter) seem perfectly safe to me. Sure, the fringe areas, especially on the southern border have an increased likelihood of being unsafe but there is definitely an invisible force field along those geographical boundaries and I really think it has to do with effective policing. You hear about incidences on the news all the time, but frankly, they often times make the news because the crime actually happened in SHAKER. Seeing those highlighted incidents can cause a false impression.

 

I moved from Shaker to Cleveland Hts. recently (by way of various parts of Columbus and Cincinnati) and noticed Hts also seems extremely safe (even in the worst areas) despite it being more working class. You'd never feel unsafe or on-guard walking alone at night on Lee Rd on the main drag but also on some of the worst streets like Kildare Rd. The great thing about Shaker Hts and Hts PD is their response time. If you call the police, you'll get an officer on the scene literally within a minute or two of calling. I know this from experience in both jurisdictions. I've heard Cleveland's PD has serious issues with proper response time for some reason...

 

Honestly, considering all of the demographic information on Cleveland Hts, I'm really surprised how safe I feel here but I have a gut feeling that it's because the police here are just so vigilant. They have a great presence and they really engage in the community and seem to take their job very seriously. Sadly, it doesn't seem like the same spirit resides in Cleveland PD as it does in Shaker and Heights PD.

Shaker is not getting worse...blah blah blah, hot takes after cars get broken into. It happens

Shaker is not getting worse...blah blah blah, hot takes after cars get broken into. It happens

 

City-data.com, Living In Shaker Heights Facebook group, etc...  :roll: Most of those people who complain and make those claims about crime on the rise don't even live in or frequently go to Shaker anymore.

 

I'm so glad I found UrbanOhio.

I lived in Gordon square for 5 years (loved it).  There was a lot of crime...but even there nothing was "getting worse".  Getting worse is such a dumb, subjective statement the way it's used. Nobody is ever supporting it with data, they are just paranoid and think because a couple things happened in the same week that didn't happen last week, that it's "getting worse".  Shaker is a peaceful retreat compared to Gordon Square.  Shaker is joined at the hip with kinsman and buckeye, stuff is gonna happen, but stuff has always happened

Does anyone have the actual text of this "no chase policy"?

Getting worse is such a dumb, subjective statement the way it's used. Nobody is ever supporting it with data, they are just paranoid and think because a couple things happened in the same week that didn't happen last week, that it's "getting worse".

 

The human mind's tendency to spin limited observation into sweeping generalizations knows now bounds. There are so many people convinced, for example, that you can't raise kids today the way you could 30, 40, or 50 years ago because "it's not like it used to be." This is, of course, utter nonsense in most places.

 

There are some people who are wired to believe crime and taxes only go up, and are wholly immune from reality-checks on these points.

 

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/04/17/despite-lower-crime-rates-support-for-gun-rights-increases/ft_15-04-01_guns_crimerate/

 

The human mind's tendency to spin limited observation into sweeping generalizations knows now bounds. There are so many people convinced, for example, that you can't raise kids today the way you could 30, 40, or 50 years ago because "it's not like it used to be." This is, of course, utter nonsense in most places.

 

There are some people who are wired to believe crime and taxes only go up, and are wholly immune from reality-checks on these points.

 

Ah yes, the drivers of urban sprawl. The locusts who spread to each next, unspoiled greenfield farther out from the city so they can devour it and drag the Levittown-seekers outward behind them.

At what age must you start to believe that the city/country/world is going to hell in a hand basket? 

At what age must you start to believe that the city/country/world is going to hell in a hand basket? 

 

When you realize that your uphill trip to and from school made you tougher than the rest of the whippersnappers around you....

At what age must you start to believe that the city/country/world is going to hell in a hand basket? 

 

For me? 16. The movie The Day After is what did it for me.

Does anyone have the actual text of this "no chase policy"?

 

It's Cleveland's city government.  They'd classify the time the sun sets if they could.

Does anyone have the actual text of this "no chase policy"?

 

It's Cleveland's city government.  They'd classify the time the sun sets if they could.

 

They don't get to determine what is and what is not a public record.  It's no secret.  I have actually seen it, I just don't know where the public access to it is.  From what I recall, it limited high speed chases in certain instances, but not all.  And it's littered with exceptions to be exercised at the officers discretion or with supervisor approval.  So calling it a 'no chase' policy is a bit of a misnomer. 

Not a misnomer at all.  I work in Public Safety (Fire) for the city of Cleveland.  CPD is definitely NOT allowed to pursue after dirt bikes/4 wheelers.  Trust me, they are frustrated by this.  The riders know this as well.  I have been told by friends that these guys will drive right next to a patrol car, kick the door and take off, knowing they won't be chased. This is just policy.  I am sure that someone in the law department weighs out the pros and cons and come up with these rules for CPD to follow.  OSP patrolling in Cleveland does NOT have to follow these rules.  They WILL chase these guys.

 

It's a misnomer because they are allowed to chase in some circumstances and are not in others.  Calling it a 'no chase' policy would imply they are never allowed to chase after a suspect, which is definitely not true.  I work with Public Safety for the City a lot and the amount of confusion over stuff like this (once passed from the cops to third parties) is mind-boggling at times. 

 

Let's take your example.  A guy rides his bike right up to a police cruiser and kicks it.  I don't care what their understanding is, I will not believe that the cops are not allowed to chase that guy unless I hear it directly from Director McGrath (not Asst Dir. Eckart).  I would think there would be some felony implications in that scenario. 

 

What happens in situations like these is that the police get frustrated by some new policy they don't like and it turns into a game of telephone as to what the policy precisely is.  By the time it reaches the public, the story is that suspect are allowed to spit in a cops face without consequence.  .

I've had two cops explain to me, in no clearer terms, that they were under no circumstances allowed to chase the dirtbike/ATV thugs around Cleveland. I had called in several riders on multiple occasions when I lived on South Moreland of riders ripping up and down the sidewalks and roadway, through intersections, and on the wrong side of the road - playing "chicken."

 

The straw that broke my back was when I saw a gang of 12 rip down Woodland eastbound on the -wrong- side of the road. A pickup truck followed. They were playing chicken with traffic and ran all of the red lights to turn up Buckeye.

 

I called Cleveland PD who told me to refer to OSP. They didn't ask me anything about the dirtbikes/ATV's - only about the pickup truck. "Did you get a license capture?"

I think it is pointless to chase ATVs and dirtbikes with police cruisers.  I don't think it's safe to even attempt it. 

I think it is pointless to chase ATVs and dirtbikes with police cruisers.  I don't think it's safe to even attempt it. 

 

Nothing outruns a radio. 

 

And how about some real police work.  These kids have to be storing them somewhere.  Show up to their club house and make a mass arrest.  The bikes aren't licensed and they are operating them illegally. 

 

I have been next to them several times and wondered if one of them falls while doing a wheelie at 60 mph down the Shoreway and I run them over, am I gonna get sued?  If I do, I'm suing the city at the same time.

Nothing in your comments would necessitate a high speed chase. 

Nothing in your comments would necessitate a high speed chase. 

 

OK what if one of them was doing a wheelie on the Shoreway, fell off his quad, got run over and the quad went in front of a schoolbus, causing it to roll over and injuring or killing innocent children.  Do we still let them break the law?  Where do we draw the line?

Lot's of what if's in your statement.  You almost what ifed your way in to tipping the earth's axis.  Then what?

Lot's of what if's in your statement.  You almost what ifed your way in to tipping the earth's axis.  Then what?

 

This leads back up to the "no chase" definition that Hts mentions above.  They don't need a high speed chase to get these kids.  They need a helicopter, a bunch of patrol cars and a road block.  But CPD has been directed by their union to sit on their hands and act like they can't do anything because they got slapped by the Mayor and Dept of Justice.  Classic union tactic.

It seems here that the problem is with the police then rather than a no-chase policy.  I think using helicopters and radios can help track where the ATVs are kept.  However a high speed chase, IMHO, only make the problem worse.  I think a high speed chase would create an even more dangerous situation.

It seems here that the problem is with the police then rather than a no-chase policy.  I think using helicopters and radios can help track where the ATVs are kept.  However a high speed chase, IMHO, only make the problem worse.  I think a high speed chase would create an even more dangerous situation.

 

Agreed.  But as Hts mentions, the police take the no-chase policy to the extreme and allow it to preclude them from going after the bikes at all.

By all means, they should go after the bikes but I don't think the use bike on city streets needs to be enforced with high speed chases.