Looks like the buildings that will be razed for that new distribution on East 55th between OC and Broadway. You can see the traffic on East 55th on Google Traffic. It's a big auto scrapyard on the site of the former Erie Railroad's Von Wilier Yard off East 55th.

 

 

Yep, haven’t seen a smoke plume like that for a while.

 

 

Doesn't seem good.

 

https://fox8.com/news/i-team/our-numbers-are-scary-low-more-officers-leaving-cleveland-police-department/

On 7/13/2022 at 7:54 AM, Ethan said:

Doesn't seem good.

 

https://fox8.com/news/i-team/our-numbers-are-scary-low-more-officers-leaving-cleveland-police-department/

This is happening nationwide.   I had dinner with a buddy with Chicago PD last night they are short over 1000 officers from full staffed.   

Ummmmm.....WTF?

https://apnews.com/article/business-police-lawsuits-cleveland-a8dacd401a0964ef1dc6ae383382ab8f

On 7/6/2022 at 10:50 AM, MayDay said:

Yep, haven’t seen a smoke plume like that for a while.

 

 

 

We made one like that 8 years ago this month in Mentor, and were making bolt carrier groups in the front half of the building two weeks later.   The fire door manufacturer should have made an ad out of it.

On 7/14/2022 at 3:51 PM, Cleburger said:

This is happening nationwide.   I had dinner with a buddy with Chicago PD last night they are short over 1000 officers from full staffed.   

 

If I'm not mistaken, @KFM44107reported some time ago that a number of his colleagues left for the suburbs, but came back.   Why they came back would be relevant.

2 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

If I'm not mistaken, @KFM44107reported some time ago that a number of his colleagues left for the suburbs, but came back.   Why they came back would be relevant.

Generally it was guys who left to exurbs like Westlake or Avon and it was always from sheer boredom.

 

34 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

You should have heard the chase Parma had last night. 

12 hours ago, KFM44107 said:

You should have heard the chase Parma had last night. 

Don't leave us hanging! 

Busy day on 156 yesterday.

 

I was driving north to the house and saw a car off the road at an angle, steaming pretty good at Grovewood.   I turned down the first side street so I wouldn't go through the debris, and there was a guy sprinting through the yards and across the street.   Hmmmmm.    A bit later there was another smashed up car that was all the way against the side of an apartment building with its nose facing the road.

 

Earlier that day, one of my neighbors asked the "open air bar" on 156 just north of Lakeshore on the sidewalk by the old Walgreens to move along.   They declined, things got testy, CPD was called and asked the loiterers to move along, they refused and I guess they can't make them.   Seems odd that they can do that legally.

 

I guess we can start checking Old Brooklyn off the list of safe/stable Cleveland proper neighborhoods. There seems like as much gun violence and carjackings in that neighborhood as Hough some days. It's already been losing a crap ton of its residents the last census. 

You're out of date. Hough is a relatively peaceful neighborhood (yes, I'm aware of the shooting that occurred there yesterday). The crimes there are usually domestic. Outsiders, including the thousands of Clinic employees who park their cars on Hough streets, are pretty much left alone.

 

And no, you can't check Old Brooklyn off the list. If you do, then you have to take all of the suburbs and exurbs where shootings have occurred off the list too.

29 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

I guess we can start checking Old Brooklyn off the list of safe/stable Cleveland proper neighborhoods. There seems like as much gun violence and carjackings in that neighborhood as Hough some days. It's already been losing a crap ton of its residents the last census. 

 

lolllllllllllllll come on. I've lived there for over 6 years and this is far from the truth. Cleveland and the Census also refute your claim that people are moving out, like you can't just throw facts out there and expect them to fly. I'm routinely walking or biking around the city after hours and rarely (if ever) do I feel unsafe. Most gun violence in this city is targeted (ie gang shootings) with the very rare innocent bystander involved. 

 

Please cite your sources next time you try and go off.

 

8 minutes ago, GISguy said:

 

Look at the population gain at the airport! Cleveland’s next hot neighborhood. 

5 hours ago, KJP said:

You're out of date. Hough is a relatively peaceful neighborhood (yes, I'm aware of the shooting that occurred there yesterday). The crimes there are usually domestic. Outsiders, including the thousands of Clinic employees who park their cars on Hough streets, are pretty much left alone.

 

And no, you can't check Old Brooklyn off the list. If you do, then you have to take all of the suburbs and exurbs where shootings have occurred off the list too.

LMAO get back to me when a suburb or exurb in NEO has a barbershop shooting that wounds 5 or more. The other week a kid was killed by gunfire walking to school and the school went on lock down. You really think those families with kids at that school want to keep living in Old Brooklyn? I follow the crime watch FB page for Old Brooklyn. People can't wait to move out of that neighborhood. 

LOL. Because FB is an accurate cross section of society from which to get a sample of the well-adjusted. 

 

But I'll play along. So, they should leave Old Brooklyn? Where should they go? How about new Brooklyn??

 

Four people killed in shooting rampage at Brooklyn Cracker Barrel restaurant 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ohio-man-kills-wife-and-daughter-in-shooting-rampage-at-cracker-barrel-restaurant-police-say/

 

You can imagine what people probably said after that horrible tragedy. But that was in 2012 right? Shootings never happen in Brooklyn. 

 

Man shot at Texas Roadhouse, shooter flees (media didn't cover this, wonder why?)

 

Maybe your cross-section of Facebook old farts thought they should move to someplace farther out, like Parma? Nothing ever happens in Parma...

 

17-year-old shot and killed by 16-year-old in Parma

https://cleveland.com/crime/2022/06/16-year-old-boy-charged-in-shooting-death-of-17-year-old-in-parma-police-say.html

 

OK, probably didn't move far enough away from Cleveland. How about Middleburg Heights? 

 

Murder-suicide in Middleburg Heights

https://www.cleveland19.com/2020/05/18/police-investigating-suspected-murder-suicide-middleburg-heights/

 

Still not far enough from the big bad city? Then let's go to Strongsville alright? 

 

Mother, two children shot in drive-by shooting in Strongsville

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/multiple-people-reportedly-injured-during-drive-by-shooting-in-strongsville/95-0557e516-a514-4479-b4b7-a8dc99592e5f

 

Oh but shootings never happen in Strongsville. That was just a fluke...

 

Murder-suicide in Strongsville 

https://www.cleveland19.com/2022/04/02/strongsville-police-man-woman-dead-saturday-morning-potential-murder-suicide/

 

Er...Medina??

 

Two people shot to death, suspect remains at large

https://fox8.com/video/medina-shooting-investigation/5741934/

 

Yes, of course Cleveland is a more violent city than most Cleveland suburbs. But there's no such thing as a safe place from America's gun and crime disease. Live where YOU want. Be a part of the solution. Running from problems doesn't help solve them. 

8 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

LMAO get back to me when a suburb or exurb in NEO has a barbershop shooting that wounds 5 or more. The other week a kid was killed by gunfire walking to school and the school went on lock down. You really think those families with kids at that school want to keep living in Old Brooklyn? I follow the crime watch FB page for Old Brooklyn. People can't wait to move out of that neighborhood. 

 

Barbershops are often gang hangouts for some reason.   The Chalk Lines murders in Warrensville in 2015 were directly tied to the LA-HF feud that was going on at the time.  The others on your list appear to be domestic, except for the drive bys.   But successful dealers often move to the suburbs, at the vehement behest of their co-parents, and their rivals follow them there.

 

The irony is that even in the worst neighborhoods, your typical suburbanite is well protected.   If it's even remotely possible that they are there to buy drugs, they are under the very aggressive protection of the gang that owns that turf.   I'd defer to@KFM44107if this has changed, since I'm out of the loop the last couple years, but I doubt it.

 

It's the residents that bear the brunt, and that's indirectly.

11 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

LMAO get back to me when a suburb or exurb in NEO has a barbershop shooting that wounds 5 or more. The other week a kid was killed by gunfire walking to school and the school went on lock down. You really think those families with kids at that school want to keep living in Old Brooklyn? I follow the crime watch FB page for Old Brooklyn. People can't wait to move out of that neighborhood. 

 

Neighborhood "Crime and Safety" facebook groups, Nextdoor, and similar apps are full of people who love to pile on and complain; it's usually the same posters "discussing" non-issues or throwing casual racism in like it's 1950. I was on the Old BK group for a solid 5 minutes before realizing what a trash fire it was. Real sources <> anecdotes from facebook. 

Edited October 21, 20222 yr by GISguy

Facebook is the last place to go to for accurate information. It's the last place for me to go to. In fact I no longer go there at all as I haven't checked in in over 3 years. Way to toxic for me.

40 minutes ago, cadmen said:

Facebook is the last place to go to for accurate information. It's the last place for me to go to. In fact I no longer go there at all as I haven't checked in in over 3 years. Way to toxic for me.

 

One of the more frequent posters who would always drum stuff up in the OldBK group offered a CCW course, no conflict there! 

23 hours ago, KJP said:

Yes, of course Cleveland is a more violent city than most Cleveland suburbs. But there's no such thing as a safe place from America's gun and crime disease. Live where YOU want. Be a part of the solution. Running from problems doesn't help solve them. 

On October 4th Ed Galleck of Channel 8 had a story where Cleveland's mayor stated that the homicide count this year was down by 12%.  That substantial drop was questioned and eventually the police chief stated that as of October 4th, there were 130 homicides in 2022 as compared to 132 as of the same date in 2021, about a 1% drop. 

 

Here is the link to that story: https://fox8.com/news/i-team/i-team-questioning-mayors-claim-about-murder-rate-after-operation-clean-sweep/

 

In 2020, Cleveland had 193 homicides while the rest of the county there were 48.  Remove East Cleveland's 19 homicides from 2020's count and the rest of the county had 29.  Even with East Cleveland's homicide count as a part of the overall picture, Cleveland had about 9.6 times the homicide rate of of the rest of the county.  Remove East Cleveland from the equation, and Cleveland had 15.7 times the rate of the rest of the county. (Note - Originally stated Cleveland had 170 homicides in 2020.  That was the count for 2021, not 2020)

 

Yes, there is no place safe from gun crime.  It knows no borders.  Victims can be in downtown Cleveland, live neighborhoods like Mount Pleasant, Cuddell and Collinwood, work in a gas station in Chesterland or be on rural farms in southern Ohio.  People can suffer the misfortune of being at the wrong place at the wrong time.  There are going to be "perceived safe" communities having "bad" years that will have per capita homicide rates that make Cleveland's rate look good.  One terrible event can skew numbers in the wrong direction.  Hearing gunshots at 1:30 in the morning is extremely unnerving, especially learning how close they were to one's home.  It doesn't change the harsh numbers that since 2012, there have been about 1440 homicides in Cleveland.  Anybody can be a victim anywhere, but there are places that historically are significantly more dangerous than others.  I don't like it in the least, but it is an unfortunate reality.      

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 20222 yr by LifeLongClevelander

And if you address the situation by moving out, it only makes it worse. Crime is the result of a lack of hope, a lack of access to opportunity. And much of that is directly related to urban sprawl. If you love your community but don't like how things are run, get more involved in your community. Don't run from it because the problems will sprawl as well. You can make a difference. 

Today's WSJ had an interesting article about crime statistics.  Apparently the FBI, which compiles national statistics decided in 2015 to change its data acquisition methods to improve acuracy.  (Under the older system, only the worst crime would be reported for a single event.  E.g. if someone was robbed and murdered, only the murder would be reported to the FBI.)

 

The cut-over to the new system was some date in 2021, but a significant portion of the country (NYC, for one large example) failed to make the date and does not report. The FBI extrapolates to fill in the gaps with estimated inaccuracies in the 1-4% range. The report said that inaccuracy is why Maine (100% on the new method) appears to experience many more violent crimes than NYC. There was no indication of when the cut-over will be completed.

 

Does anyone know if Cleveland area governments are reporting under the new system?

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-we-dont-know-if-violent-crime-rose-or-fell-lastyear-11666344602?mod=Searchresults_pos1&page=1

4 hours ago, KJP said:

And if you address the situation by moving out, it only makes it worse. Crime is the result of a lack of hope, a lack of access to opportunity. And much of that is directly related to urban sprawl. If you love your community but don't like how things are run, get more involved in your community. Don't run from it because the problems will sprawl as well. You can make a difference. 

I'm not advocating for further exodus or sprawl. I'm just being realistic of how the mentality of the people who live in these neighborhoods is. Ask anyone who moves out of Cleveland proper into the suburbs and you ask why, they always use the word "dangerous" or "crime"

 In 2019, more than 19,100 people were victims of homicide in the US. In the same year 36,096 people were killed in traffic crashes in the US. Moving far from work and commuting every day is dangerous, and rarely accounted for by suburbanites.

10 hours ago, KJP said:

And if you address the situation by moving out, it only makes it worse. Crime is the result of a lack of hope, a lack of access to opportunity. And much of that is directly related to urban sprawl. If you love your community but don't like how things are run, get more involved in your community. Don't run from it because the problems will sprawl as well. You can make a difference. 

One can be happy with their community and satisfied with how it is run, but what does one do with those who live in the community who don't care?  How does one deal with people who don't bother to raise their children properly?  What do you do when people move in who don't care about the neighborhood or treating others with decency?  How about waking up in the middle of the night to the sounds of gunshots, seeing shell casings strewn around or seeing where bullets have struck their house?  These actions could very well be carried out by people who don't even live in the community.  No matter how well a community is run and having a well-staffed police department, those police officers cannot be everywhere all the time. 

 

People move on all the time.  Many cases have nothing to do with sprawl.  They pass away.  Health deteriorates to a point where they cannot live alone.  Taking care of a house can be too much.  Job changes force them to leave the area.  I can go on and on.  In the cases of elderly or those who pass away, their former homes may not be in the best condition.  People can be foreclosed upon due to circumstances beyond their control (extended unemployment, large medical bills, inability to work a job they once had, etc...).  Those houses can frequently be bought up as "investment properties" for rental income.  People can move in as renters to those houses and be wonderful tenants or they can be the cause of others moving.  In the latter case, they can be enough of a nuisance to drive people away, but not enough of a problem to be a concern of city officials.  

 

6 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

I'm not advocating for further exodus or sprawl. I'm just being realistic of how the mentality of the people who live in these neighborhoods is. Ask anyone who moves out of Cleveland proper into the suburbs and you ask why, they always use the word "dangerous" or "crime"

If the words "dangerous" or "crime" aren't used, terms like "poor schools" are also commonly used.  Yes, there are excellent private schools and academies.  The top students can be lucky enough to go to a public school with advanced or specialty programs.  Unfortunately, many others cannot get into those private schools and academies.  Other students aren't quite good enough to get in the top public school in a larger district.  Other school districts aren't big enough to be offer advanced programs.  I know of school districts where the "honors" program is no more than the level of regular classes for the same subject in better school districts.  The lesser school districts end up watering-down GPA's due to lower standards.  If education is important enough to the parents, they will find a way to seek out better ways to learn.  If they cannot get into private schools, academies or advance public school programs, they will find away to do so elsewhere.

I wonder if it occurred to anyone that this may in fact be related to white people refusing to share resources and live in the same communities as people of color? The need to self segregate into suburbs for education, environmental, etc purposes. Then that creates areas of concentrated poverty with extremely low resources heightened by the way Ohio funds it’s schools. And poverty (which is a blatant policy choice) is a clear indicator of many things like health outcomes, crime, etc. #america

Edited October 22, 20222 yr by Clefan14

8 minutes ago, Clefan14 said:

I wonder if it occurred to anyone that this may in fact be related to white people refusing to share resources and live in the same communities as people of color? The need to self segregate into suburbs for education, environmental, etc purposes. Then that creates areas of concentrated poverty with extremely low resources heightened by the way Ohio funds it’s schools. And poverty (which is a blatant policy choice) is a clear indicator of many things like health outcomes, crime, etc. #america

I have had neighbors who weren't of color who were problems.  One neighbor was a tolerable nuisance.  A second was becoming a problem and whose property was an eyesore.  A third was a big problem who made living nearby awful.  If he didn't leave, it would have been enough to make others do so.  In the case of the first and third neighbors, when they moved the people who moved in are wonderful and it doesn't matter what group they fall in.

 

As for school funding, there are school districts that are money pits.  No matter what the source of the money, the performance of those districts is awful every single year.  The funding sources can be made legal constitutionally, but the outcome will be the same.  Using the excuse that Ohio's school funding is unconstitutional and devising a plan that will make in constitutional will not solve anything.

43 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

If the words "dangerous" or "crime" aren't used, terms like "poor schools" are also commonly used.  Yes, there are excellent private schools and academies.  The top students can be lucky enough to go to a public school with advanced or specialty programs.  Unfortunately, many others cannot get into those private schools and academies.  Other students aren't quite good enough to get in the top public school in a larger district.  Other school districts aren't big enough to be offer advanced programs.  I know of school districts where the "honors" program is no more than the level of regular classes for the same subject in better school districts.  The lesser school districts end up watering-down GPA's due to lower standards.  If education is important enough to the parents, they will find a way to seek out better ways to learn.  If they cannot get into private schools, academies or advance public school programs, they will find away to do so elsewhere.

 

School rankings are not useful and there is very little causal evidence that the rank of a school is determinant of individual student's performance. 

 

Poor school rankings correlate very highly with other social and environmental factors that are much more determinant of a student's performance. 

 

The sooner we stop encouraging parents to make decisions based on school rankings the better. 

8 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

I'm not advocating for further exodus or sprawl. I'm just being realistic of how the mentality of the people who live in these neighborhoods is. Ask anyone who moves out of Cleveland proper into the suburbs and you ask why, they always use the word "dangerous" or "crime"

 

People who claim they're being "realistic" are doing so only from their point of view, and use it to dismiss other points of view. Your experiences are different, that's all. We can always add more experiences. 

1 hour ago, Luke_S said:

 

School rankings are not useful and there is very little causal evidence that the rank of a school is determinant of individual student's performance. 

 

Poor school rankings correlate very highly with other social and environmental factors that are much more determinant of a student's performance. 

 

The sooner we stop encouraging parents to make decisions based on school rankings the better. 

Do you have children in school or have been in school recently?  I have seen from my children and the schools they attended what DOES occur.  For many reasons, "holding back" children from advancing to the next grade does not occur.  In our old district, one school principal refused to hold back any student from advancing regardless of how poorly they did and not knowing the material.  Standards are inconsistent.  Also in our old school district, extra credit opportunities abounded to the point of being ridiculous.  Things like bringing a box of tissues to a classroom or presence at some event was awarded with extra credit.  Opportunities to earn extra credit were excessive.  Twenty to thirty percent of the class total could be extra credit.  Kids who failed classes were given a short essay to covert a failing grade to a passing one.  There are little to no consequences for not studying or doing homework.  Teachers' aides witnessed kids taking tests in an open book, open note environment.  From the statements of those aides, it was very obvious that the only time books were opened came at the time of the test.  In a time-limited environment, there is no way material that is has not been learned will yield passing test results.  For small districts, they may not have student numbers to support having multiple classes at the same grade level to teach students based upon ability.  Students who are above average get bored very easily when a teacher has to present material at a level for students who need more help.  Honors-level courses need to have a uniform standard.  The weighted GPA assigned to an honors course waters-down the whole system if the the material is at the same standard.

 

There are issues with state testing.  However, when students have been advanced to higher grades when they haven't learned the material they should have learned for those grades, it is reflected in the testing results.

Edited October 23, 20222 yr by LifeLongClevelander

40 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

Do you have children in school or have been in school recently?  I have seen from my children and the schools they attended what DOES occur.  For many reasons, "holding back" children from advancing to the next grade does not occur.  In our old district, one school principal refused to hold back any student from advance regardless of how poorly they did and not knowing the material.  Standards are inconsistent.  Also in our old school district, extra credit opportunities abounded to the point of being ridiculous.  Things like bringing a box of tissues to a classroom or presence at some event was awarded with extra credit.  Kids who failed classes were given a short essay to covert a failing grade to a passing one.  There are little to no consequences for not studying or doing homework.  Teachers' aides have witnessed kids taking tests in an open book, open note environment.  From the statements of those aides, it was very obvious that the only time books were opened came at the time of the test.  In a time-limited environment, there is no way material that is has not been learned will yield passing test results.  For small districts, they may not have student numbers to support having multiple classes at the same grade level to teach students based upon ability.  Students who are above average get bored very easily when a teacher has to present material at a level for students who need more help.  Honors-level courses need to have a uniform standard.  The weighted GPA assigned to an honors course waters-down the whole system if the the material is at the same standard.

 

There are issues with state testing.  However, when students have been advanced to higher grades when they haven't learned the material they should have learned for those grades, it is reflected in the testing results.

 

You are pointing to anecdotal evidence. I linked a couple studies below, you can look up more for yourself, but there are studies that show that when controlling for socioeconomic factors school rankings are not very good indicators for how a student performs. 

 

This is further supported by research that shows that children perform better in school if they have had a full breakfast and not hungry, if they have a consistent place to sleep, are well rested and not stressed--all things that low income students experience and those students tend to be concentrated in low ranked schools.

 

There are also studies that show children who are exposed to a larger vocabulary in their infancy perform better in school. These tend to be parents who have higher education themselves and are able to be home because they are not working multiple jobs. Again, middle and upper class. 

 

So strong correlation between school ranking and student performance, weak causal relationship. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8298902/

"Results:

We found that Ofsted ratings of secondary school quality accounted for 4% of the variance in students’ educational achievement at age 16, which was further reduced to 1% of the variance after we accounted for prior school performance at age 11 and family socioeconomic status. Furthermore, Ofsted ratings were poor predictors of school engagement and student wellbeing, with an average correlation of .03.

 

Conclusion:

Our findings suggest that differences in school quality, as indexed by Ofsted ratings, have little relation with students’ individual outcomes. Accordingly, our results challenge the usefulness of Ofsted ratings as guides for parents and students when choosing secondary schools."

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27548088

" Abstract

The authors used data on public high schools in New Hampshire to demonstrate how the socioeconomic status (SES) of the district can help explain variations in students' average standardized test scores and college-attendance rates and subsequent rankings of schools within states. The authors show how states can use multiple-outcome measures to derive an alternative ranking of high schools that removes the contributions of SES to the school-level outcomes and how these rankings compare with similar rankings that would be obtained solely on the basis of observed outcomes. Results demonstrate that socioeconomic factors account for a large portion of the variations in school-level outcomes in New Hampshire and that the subsequent rankings of schools can change dramatically after controlling for these factors. The methodology that the authors present can be replicated easily in other states and applied to different choices of outcome and control measures."

 

 

Most of the poorly performing school districts end up providing breakfast and lunch for their students.  Even if they don't eat well at home, the school districts provide meals for them.

 

It is not anecdotal evidence when parents who are INVOLVED with their children and their school districts they attend see and pay attention to what is going on.  It is not "anecdotal" when going to conference night in certain school districts and few to no parents are present.  It is not "anecdotal" when going to conference night in other districts and parents are waiting in lengthy lines.  I have personally witnessed both situations multiple times.  Guess which category each district falls in.  When my spouse and I attended conferences when both of our kids had conferences on the same night, we split up.  Even if single parents are involved, they can make provisions so they can attend.  If they have more than one child and cannot see or talk with all of their children's teachers, districts do have conference nights on more than one night.  Even if that is not enough, any teacher worth having that title will make accommodations to meet with CONCERNED parents.  When our youngest expressed concerns our youngest was having about a poor learning situation in the classroom, we met with the teacher.

 

When people fall back on the "anecdotal evidence" argument, they frequently do so because they are in denial about the statements.  Furthermore, there is nothing that locks in the next generation from the same things encountered by parents.  Adults who take the time to realize their successes and failures can at least change the course of the future.  Yes, from certain perspectives, it may be considered "anecdotal", but when they want better for their children than what they had, the proof is in the actions taken and one personally witnesses what occurs.

 

For all too many, it is far easier to blame everything that goes wrong on everybody else, instead of looking in the mirror or denying reality.

Everything you've just listed is "anecdotal".  If you don't get that, look up the definition of "anecdotal".

On 10/22/2022 at 8:17 AM, KJP said:

And if you address the situation by moving out, it only makes it worse. Crime is the result of a lack of hope, a lack of access to opportunity. And much of that is directly related to urban sprawl. If you love your community but don't like how things are run, get more involved in your community. Don't run from it because the problems will sprawl as well. You can make a difference. 

 

On the other hand, voting with your feet (or wheels) is a traditional way of expressing dissatisfaction.    

22 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

I'm not advocating for further exodus or sprawl. I'm just being realistic of how the mentality of the people who live in these neighborhoods is. Ask anyone who moves out of Cleveland proper into the suburbs and you ask why, they always use the word "dangerous" or "crime"

 

My experience is they use the word "schools" as much as crime.

18 hours ago, Clefan14 said:

I wonder if it occurred to anyone that this may in fact be related to white people refusing to share resources and live in the same communities as people of color? The need to self segregate into suburbs for education, environmental, etc purposes. Then that creates areas of concentrated poverty with extremely low resources heightened by the way Ohio funds it’s schools. And poverty (which is a blatant policy choice) is a clear indicator of many things like health outcomes, crime, etc. #america

 

Race is usually a cop out.  The issue is culture.   I've known plenty of more affluent non white people that were just as quick to bail out of areas where they didn't feel safe.   It's not just crime, it's sympathy for criminals, lack of respect for property rights, apathy towards education, and toxic cultural practices such as loud noise late at night (even on weeknights).

Edited October 23, 20222 yr by E Rocc

11 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

Most of the poorly performing school districts end up providing breakfast and lunch for their students.  Even if they don't eat well at home, the school districts provide meals for them.

 

It is not anecdotal evidence when parents who are INVOLVED with their children and their school districts they attend see and pay attention to what is going on.  It is not "anecdotal" when going to conference night in certain school districts and few to no parents are present.  It is not "anecdotal" when going to conference night in other districts and parents are waiting in lengthy lines.  I have personally witnessed both situations multiple times.  Guess which category each district falls in.  When my spouse and I attended conferences when both of our kids had conferences on the same night, we split up.  Even if single parents are involved, they can make provisions so they can attend.  If they have more than one child and cannot see or talk with all of their children's teachers, districts do have conference nights on more than one night.  Even if that is not enough, any teacher worth having that title will make accommodations to meet with CONCERNED parents.  When our youngest expressed concerns our youngest was having about a poor learning situation in the classroom, we met with the teacher.

 

When people fall back on the "anecdotal evidence" argument, they frequently do so because they are in denial about the statements.  Furthermore, there is nothing that locks in the next generation from the same things encountered by parents.  Adults who take the time to realize their successes and failures can at least change the course of the future.  Yes, from certain perspectives, it may be considered "anecdotal", but when they want better for their children than what they had, the proof is in the actions taken and one personally witnesses what occurs.

 

For all too many, it is far easier to blame everything that goes wrong on everybody else, instead of looking in the mirror or denying reality.

 

Individuals make decisions based on their own experiences, which are quite easy to dismiss as "anecdotal".

5 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

On the other hand, voting with your feet (or wheels) is a traditional way of expressing dissatisfaction.    

 

And I just had a friend move out of her beautiful house in West Cleveland because she was robbed at gunpoint in her driveway.

 

Her neighbors saw what was going on and did nothing. 

13 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Individuals make decisions based on their own experiences, which are quite easy to dismiss as "anecdotal".

Responsible parents and their children care and know what kind of education environment they are dealing with.  They won't dismiss it as being "anecdotal".  If the learning environment is poor, based upon what they feel their observations and/or what their children tell them, they won't "write it off".  If the parents are being responsible adults, they will take that into account.  The same holds true if they feel if the schools are considered unsafe.  They will take actions to insure finding a better and safer learning environment.  Some are fortunate.  They can find, get into and afford non-public school academies.  If public schools do offer advanced schools with top-notched programs, maybe they can be lucky enough to get into them.  If they aren't, as being responsible parents, they will find a way to find a better education for their children.  Word travels among parents.  Involved parents know what is going on and make the best choices for their families as well.  If it doesn't align with what others think, well that is too bad.

7 hours ago, surfohio said:

And I just had a friend move out of her beautiful house in West Cleveland because she was robbed at gunpoint in her driveway.

 

Her neighbors saw what was going on and did nothing. 

Being crime victims or knowing what is going on where they live will matter.  Being a "walk-able" neighborhood or living in a beautiful house will be mean nothing if they fear what may happen when they go for their walks or partake in everyday activities.  "Anecdotal" won't matter to victims or for those who fear becoming victimized.  Aside from all that, somebody can have really strong feelings for their lifestyle of choice.  If their spouse or partner ends up having a different opinion, what wins out?   

Edited October 24, 20222 yr by LifeLongClevelander

How to catch a rapist? Study finds Cleveland, Cuyahoga authorities failed to collect DNA from nearly 15,000 suspects over 7 years

Oct. 23, 2022

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio – In early 2012, a 14-year-old girl was raped by a stranger in Cleveland Heights.

 

A rape kit captured a man’s DNA, but no match was found in the Combined DNA Index System, or CODIS, a sort of federal clearinghouse for DNA data that helps law enforcement identify suspects and match them with old and new crimes.

 

Three years after the unsolved Cleveland Heights rape, a man named Marquice Miller pleaded guilty to felony theft in Cuyahoga County. Per Ohio law, authorities should have swabbed for Miller’s DNA and sent it to the data system. That never happened, and Miller was put on probation.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/10/cleveland-police-county-authorities-failed-to-collect-dna-from-nearly-15000-suspects-in-seven-year-period-violating-ohio-law-study-finds.html

On 10/20/2022 at 5:03 PM, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

I guess we can start checking Old Brooklyn off the list of safe/stable Cleveland proper neighborhoods. There seems like as much gun violence and carjackings in that neighborhood as Hough some days. It's already been losing a crap ton of its residents the last census. 

Hard to keep the trash south of brookpark from crossing over into the city where they know the cops don't give chase. 

On 10/23/2022 at 10:50 PM, LifeLongClevelander said:

 

Being crime victims or knowing what is going on where they live will matter.  Being a "walk-able" neighborhood or living in a beautiful house will be mean nothing if they fear what may happen when they go for their walks or partake in everyday activities.  "Anecdotal" won't matter to victims or for those who fear becoming victimized.  Aside from all that, somebody can have really strong feelings for their lifestyle of choice.  If their spouse or partner ends up having a different opinion, what wins out?   

 

People with options won't live where they are uncomfortable.  That could be impacted by many things.   Crime, schools, even behaviors or conditions which may not be illegal or even intentionally malicious.   If the g word is used to malign neighborhoods becoming more comfortable for them, they will live in the suburbs.

Edited October 25, 20222 yr by E Rocc

7 hours ago, originaljbw said:

Hard to keep the trash south of brookpark from crossing over into the city where they know the cops don't give chase. 

Pretty sure that "trash" is doing their crime in Parma and then coming back into the city, you know, where they are from. With that mentality, maybe Cleveland should keep it's "trash" from crossing into the suburbs. 

Parma police don't stop their chase at the border.

52 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Pretty sure that "trash" is doing their crime in Parma and then coming back into the city, you know, where they are from. With that mentality, maybe Cleveland should keep it's "trash" from crossing into the suburbs. 

 

I don't know about Parma, but Euclid will definitely chase perpetrators into the city.

10 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

I don't know about Parma, but Euclid will definitely chase perpetrators into the city.

Parma definitely pursues into the city.