1 minute ago, GISguy said:

 

lol not at all, it's always free parking. Always.

And ‘the traffic’, even though downtown is a breeze compared to 271 corridor, 71 and Royalton, ‘downtown’ Strongsville etc

On 7/13/2023 at 10:34 PM, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

I don't know how you can regret moving to a job with a significant less amount of thugs and gangster punks who will even shoot at your squad car just for the hell of it, that has also provides more pay, more benefits, and less hours. Oh and a tax base that fawns over you with their "back the blue" hashtags any chance they get

 

I daresay that some of the inner ring areas have more senseless violent crime than my neighborhood, and there are other neignborhoods with less.

 

Though the governments of same tend to treat their officers better and don't have "consent decrees".

Edited July 15, 20231 yr by E Rocc

16 hours ago, roman totale XVII said:

And ‘the traffic’, even though downtown is a breeze compared to 271 corridor, 71 and Royalton, ‘downtown’ Strongsville etc

 

Between the virus and the redesign of the 271-480E split, the 271 corridor is much less congested than in the past.

 

Parking, traffic, and the perception of safety are all factors.   So is discomfort with density, on the part of some.

Edited July 15, 20231 yr by E Rocc

14 hours ago, Clefan98 said:

 

90% of Progressive and Eaton's staff work full-time work from home now. And yes, all three of those companies have a hard time attracting top talent. Follow along Progressive's bus tour for prospective employee's to see which part of the metro they show off (hint: the city) and which they do not (hint: their campus). Like I said, HR and talent acquisition know this but don't get to make real estate decisions.

 

Why do you think SHW is building a new HQ in the heart of the city? Their folks are much more savvy and future thinking than the ladder.

 

They were already there, and their tech center?

 

 

14 hours ago, Clefan98 said:

Even when population losses are equated, Cleveland's homicide rate today is still far below the levels we saw throughout the 1970's and early 90's.

 

The only things that have changed are bored Facebook Karen's with nothing better to do than crime talk, and the bombardment of 24/7 news, which sole purpose is to incite fear.

 

In 1972, homicide in the city set a record with 333 murders.

https://teachingcleveland.org/cleveland-in-the-1970s-mike-roberts/

 

 

168 homicides in 2022.

 

About 750K people in 1970, 361K in 2022

 

Homicides is 50.5% of 1972, population 48%.   So, a wash.

 

I would say it's more targetted now, concentrated on people involved with drugs and/or gangs.

17 hours ago, Enginerd said:

The answer is simple yet difficult to solve; the city doesn’t have enough money. Raise police wages and then what do you cut?

 

I’m not saying they should or shouldn’t do it, but that’s the reality in a city that already struggles to provide services.

I guess I’m confused because it sounds like they are budgeted to hire many more officers but they can’t fill the positions. So, don’t they have a bunch of money budgeted for police officers that is not being spent? It might be that they are budgeted only to spend a certain amount per officer, but I was thinking that they raise the entry-level wages to attract more candidates and lower the total number of officers if they can’t hire the same number at higher salaries. 

3 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

168 homicides in 2022.

 

About 750K people in 1970, 361K in 2022

 

Homicides is 50.5% of 1972, population 48%.   So, a wash.

 

I would say it's more targetted now, concentrated on people involved with drugs and/or gangs.

Yeah it’s pretty close but in 1973 there were 366 homicides with a population closer to 720k than 750k. Homicide rates really started to increase in 1970 and didn’t stop rising until 1994. 

39 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

Yeah it’s pretty close but in 1973 there were 366 homicides with a population closer to 720k than 750k. Homicide rates really started to increase in 1970 and didn’t stop rising until 1994. 

 

I don't have data to back it but it does seem like it was a lot more random then than it is now.

 

My point has always been that a person who is unconnected to the nonsense is way safer in most parts of Cleveland than the perception.

 

So for today's shocker, I agree with you in part.   But the trend is in the wrong direction and it's because the cops are understaffed and hamstrung.

On 7/13/2023 at 6:17 PM, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

It's honestly baffling how much posters on this forum are willing to stick their heads in the sand when it comes to crime downtown and don't think it's probably the biggest deterrent to people moving, living, and now in the 21st century even working there. Every single case of a downtown leaving for the suburbs, the employees are ecstatic, and the most common reason you here is because of the lawless that not only occurs downtown, but also condoned. Every single time I bring up how I wish suburban jobs stayed downtown, the people who work at said suburban location always state they would switch jobs before even considering working downtown, and it always comes back to the crime levels. Car breakins, carjackings, panhandling. People don't want it. 

You clearly don’t know what you are talking about in your post. I’ve lived downtown for 16 years and counting and raised a 14 year old, all downtown. We’ve never had any crime issues. I’ll give you the occasional panhandling but they’re never aggressive. I’m also not out until two AM on a Friday or Saturday. After the shooting a couple weeks ago, there were camera crews out for six straight days. News channels know that fever mongering creates views. Hence the reason I don’t watch the news.

7 minutes ago, stpats44113 said:

You clearly don’t know what you are talking about in your post. I’ve lived downtown for 16 years and counting and raised a 14 year old, all downtown. We’ve never had any crime issues. I’ll give you the occasional panhandling but they’re never aggressive. I’m also not out until two AM on a Friday or Saturday. After the shooting a couple weeks ago, there were camera crews out for six straight days. News channels know that fever mongering creates views. Hence the reason I don’t watch the news.

 

The news is always going to oversensationalize, but they need some basis for same.   Lately, they are getting it.  Employers are getting quite concerned, as I showed above.

2 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

The news is always going to oversensationalize, but they need some basis for same.   Lately, they are getting it.  Employers are getting quite concerned, as I showed above.

But we don't know the entire story with that employer either.  Maybe the person in charge pushing this safety agenda lives in Brunswick, and is justifying moving to a new location, or even angling to get everyone working remotely.  Sensationalism happens in all organizations.  

21 hours ago, Clefan98 said:

Even when population losses are equated, Cleveland's homicide rate today is still far below the levels we saw throughout the 1970's and early 90's.

 

The only things that have changed are bored Facebook Karen's with nothing better to do than crime talk, and the bombardment of 24/7 news, which sole purpose is to incite fear.

 

In 1972, homicide in the city set a record with 333 murders.

https://teachingcleveland.org/cleveland-in-the-1970s-mike-roberts/

 

 

 

 

 

 

is it though? Cleveland in 1970 had 750K people and say around 333 homicides; in 2023 Cleveland is half its size and is on track to have almost 200 homicides. Doesn't that mean the murder rate is higher now?

We also have to account for improved trauma care in hospitals that saves lives that otherwise wouldnt have been saved in 1970. So an important part of the murder rate "decline" we saw after 1990 was due to better hospital responses, not less crime. Are shootings more frequent now than in 1972? I'd wager they are. 

20 hours ago, westerninterloper said:

is it though? Cleveland in 1970 had 750K people and say around 333 homicides; in 2023 Cleveland is half its size and is on track to have almost 200 homicides. Doesn't that mean the murder rate is higher now?

We also have to account for improved trauma care in hospitals that saves lives that otherwise wouldnt have been saved in 1970. So an important part of the murder rate "decline" we saw after 1990 was due to better hospital responses, not less crime. Are shootings more frequent now than in 1972? I'd wager they are. 

Homicides increased post 1972 and population decreased by over 100k that decade so the numbers were much worse by the mid and late 70s. 

Edited July 16, 20231 yr by Clefan98

Go use a dirt bike track. And if you can't get to one, why do you have a DIRT bike in the city anyway??

 

On 7/15/2023 at 12:58 PM, Cleburger said:

But we don't know the entire story with that employer either.  Maybe the person in charge pushing this safety agenda lives in Brunswick, and is justifying moving to a new location, or even angling to get everyone working remotely.  Sensationalism happens in all organizations.  

 

Many of them already work remotely, but are you saying the incidents in question do not happen?  The pellet gun thing was all over WTAM.   

Edited July 17, 20231 yr by E Rocc

4 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Many of them already work remotely, but are you saying the incidents in question do not happen?  The pellet gun thing was all over WTAM.   

I'm not saying they didn't happen.    I'm sure it did.  This pellet gun thing must be a social media thing because I was shot with a paint ball last year while walking along a suburban street. 

 

The response was to the comment about news over sensationalizing incidents.    Someone at the top of a business organization can do the same thing to get the outcome they desire.  

 

 

Because HR's and other business departments are known for oversensationalizing crimes?

 

Hell, if anything they underreport matters to provide the illusion of safety inside and outside an office. As do cities.

 

 

Edited July 17, 20231 yr by TBideon

Just as a heads up a family member of mine retired a few years ago as Partner Emirtus from Tucker Ellis. Before we go down that rabbit hole they have no intentions of leaving. 

1 hour ago, KFM44107 said:

Just as a heads up a family member of mine retired a few years ago as Partner Emirtus from Tucker Ellis. Before we go down that rabbit hole they have no intentions of leaving. 

 

But they do want a safe environment for their employees and don't want people bailing because they feel unsafe.  

23 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

But they do want a safe environment for their employees and don't want people bailing because they feel unsafe.  

Correct. 

 

Couldn't they use stop sticks? Or follow the punks (not chase) to see where they go? Seeing them driving around that like that makes me furious. With my temper, it's why I don't carry a gun.

40 minutes ago, KJP said:

Couldn't they use stop sticks? Or follow the punks (not chase) to see where they go? Seeing them driving around that like that makes me furious. With my temper, it's why I don't carry a gun.

Cops need small rockets that fly into the tailpipe and foam up, blocking the exhaust and stopping the bike.  :-)

I get the feeling right now that the criminals or wannabe criminals are emboldened. They think they can get away with this stupid behavior because they see and hear on the street that they ARE getting away with it. The cops look feeble. This has set a very dangerous precedent. 

 

City leaders need to take action now before all the good work unravels. 

54 minutes ago, KJP said:

Couldn't they use stop sticks? Or follow the punks (not chase) to see where they go? Seeing them driving around that like that makes me furious. With my temper, it's why I don't carry a gun.

I'm not sure there's much of a difference between following and chasing if you're in a police car. Once the alleged criminals realize the police are following them if they don't pull over they're probably going to speed up. (and if they're already joyriding at 3x-4x the speed limit, my money's on speeding up). 

 

1 minute ago, cadmen said:

I get the feeling right now that the criminals or wannabe criminals are emboldened. They think they can get away with this stupid behavior because they see and hear on the street that they ARE getting away with it. The cops look feeble. This has set a very dangerous precedent. 

Agreed, the stupid punk lawlessness (like the dirt-bike / fourwheeler joyrides) creates an atmosphere that suggests breaking the law is okay. That can lead to more, and more serious, crime. It also makes the city feel unsafe (even if it isn't necessarily). And there are lots of things that are illegal that may not make anyone less safe, but can certainly degrade the quality of life of everyone living in the city, all of these contribute to the same culture of lawlessness.

The dirtbikes were on the Main Ave bridge again the other night doing tricks.   CPD just needs to wait for this to happen and trap them all on there.   It's not rocket science.    Most of the kids might get away but their bikes and quads wouldn't.   I'm sure they wouldn't be able to replace 150 bikes very quickly.  

I hate to say it and don't, at all, condone it... but don't be surprised if someone takes matters into their own hands and this whole thing escalates into something much bigger than petty criminals doing stupid things. 

4 hours ago, Cleburger said:

The dirtbikes were on the Main Ave bridge again the other night doing tricks.   CPD just needs to wait for this to happen and trap them all on there.   It's not rocket science.    Most of the kids might get away but their bikes and quads wouldn't.   I'm sure they wouldn't be able to replace 150 bikes very quickly.  

We aren't allowed to trap anything. We have to leave an out. You can thank the fed oversight for that. 

41 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

I hate to say it and don't, at all, condone it... but don't be surprised if someone takes matters into their own hands and this whole thing escalates into something much bigger than petty criminals doing stupid things. 

 

I'm surprised it hasn't happened already, to be honest.

34 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

We aren't allowed to trap anything. We have to leave an out. You can thank the fed oversight for that. 

They have an out.  They can run off the end of the bridges and hop over cruisers?    Only their bikes would be truly trapped.  

32 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

They have an out.  They can run off the end of the bridges and hop over cruisers?    Only their bikes would be truly trapped.  

Sorry. No officer is risking their career to argue that in front of a police commission when they get brought up on charges. 

1 hour ago, KFM44107 said:

We aren't allowed to trap anything. We have to leave an out. You can thank the fed oversight for that. 

What is the rationale -- because whatever they could be charged with is just a misdemeanor? 

 

Do you have to leave an out for drivers at sobriety checkpoints?  bank robbers too? Terrorists?  We can get ridiculous in a hurry.

4 minutes ago, Foraker said:

What is the rationale -- because whatever they could be charged with is just a misdemeanor? 

 

Do you have to leave an out for drivers at sobriety checkpoints?  bank robbers too? Terrorists?  We can get ridiculous in a hurry.

We are specifically talking about cars and traffic stop situations/chase situations. We cannot box cars in, etc. No pit maneuvers. Actually it says we can't disobey traffic laws technically.

 

Just Google Cleveland Police General police orders and have at it. It's public record. 

Edited July 18, 20231 yr by KFM44107

9 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

We are specifically talking about cars and traffic stop situations/chase situations. We cannot box cars in, etc. No pit maneuvers. Actually it says we can't disobey traffic laws technically.

Ok.  I don't know the exact rationale, but maybe to avoid situations where drivers just smash into your vehicles, otherwise crash and lose control, or drive up onto the sidewalk and endanger bystanders or other drivers. 

 

Get them on video behaving badly, track 'em from the air, find out where they live, and pick them up later.  Seems like that could be a better approach, if slower.  As long as they don't cause any accidents in the meantime....

5 minutes ago, Foraker said:

Get them on video behaving badly, track 'em from the air, find out where they live, and pick them up later.  Seems like that could be a better approach, if slower.  As long as they don't cause any accidents in the meantime....

The CPD helicopters rarely fly.  I believe there is only one pilot.  

31 minutes ago, Foraker said:

Ok.  I don't know the exact rationale, but maybe to avoid situations where drivers just smash into your vehicles, otherwise crash and lose control, or drive up onto the sidewalk and endanger bystanders or other drivers. 

 

Get them on video behaving badly, track 'em from the air, find out where they live, and pick them up later.  Seems like that could be a better approach, if slower.  As long as they don't cause any accidents in the meantime....

 

Doesn't work when the cars are stolen, and they often are.

48 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

We are specifically talking about cars and traffic stop situations/chase situations. We cannot box cars in, etc. No pit maneuvers. Actually it says we can't disobey traffic laws technically.

 

Just Google Cleveland Police General police orders and have at it. It's public record. 

 

In other words you aren't being given the essential tools to do your jobs.    Is this a result of the "consent decree"?

11 hours ago, cadmen said:

I get the feeling right now that the criminals or wannabe criminals are emboldened. They think they can get away with this stupid behavior because they see and hear on the street that they ARE getting away with it. The cops look feeble. This has set a very dangerous precedent. 

 

City leaders need to take action now before all the good work unravels. 

They had that opportunity with these ATVs and Dirt Bikes that plague the downtown and residential streets (that continue to this day). They failed and the criminals know they won't be chased or caught. Before the good work unravels? Buddy, it's already unwoven. Have you stepped downtown lately? The arcade is a sad state of vacancy. Public square is just another ghetto hangout now. And apperently shootings are now the norm in the vicinity of high rent apartments. The city has completely lost control with these criminals. 

3 hours ago, Foraker said:

What is the rationale -- because whatever they could be charged with is just a misdemeanor? 

 

Do you have to leave an out for drivers at sobriety checkpoints?  bank robbers too? Terrorists?  We can get ridiculous in a hurry.

The rationale in this country is that it's ok for our cities to be a free for all. Fu** the citizens, we need to protect the misguided criminals and their antisocial behavior.

 

16 hours ago, Foraker said:

Ok.  I don't know the exact rationale, but maybe to avoid situations where drivers just smash into your vehicles, otherwise crash and lose control, or drive up onto the sidewalk and endanger bystanders or other drivers. 

 

Get them on video behaving badly, track 'em from the air, find out where they live, and pick them up later.  Seems like that could be a better approach, if slower.  As long as they don't cause any accidents in the meantime....

Except 90 percent of these cars are stolen, a rental they take from a straw renter, and most dirt bikes aren't registered. So unless you catch the suspects in them or solve the GTMV crime then it's a little harder than you think. Especially when you can't pursue. Criminals are dumb but they're not drive my own car with my personal license plates dumb. 

16 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

In other words you aren't being given the essential tools to do your jobs.    Is this a result of the "consent decree"?

Yes. I mean obviously the consent decree is because of some stupid things the police did, so let's not pretend they're here for nothing. But with that said the issue is instead of moving the needle to the middle our knee jerk reaction is to move that needle to the exact opposite side of where we were at. If that analogy makes sense. 

Even though perception is not reality at times it carries more weight. I think we're in one of those times. The perception right now is crime is bad in Cleveland and getting worse. That perception could be having an impact on business, the housing market and the idea that Cleveland is a great place to visit.

 

I'm not inside where decisions are made but l hope leadership realizes the danger here. It feels like an emergency requiring all hands on deck and not business as usual. I hope Cleveland is working with Federal law inforcement to put an end to the people who are terrorizing our neighborhoods. Cops looking befuddled and then jogging after fleeing cars is not going to cut it. Now is the time for politicians, the legal community, faith groups and law enforcement to come together and stop the lawlessness.

22 minutes ago, cadmen said:

Even though perception is not reality at times it carries more weight. I think we're in one of those times. The perception right now is crime is bad in Cleveland and getting worse. That perception could be having an impact on business, the housing market and the idea that Cleveland is a great place to visit.

 

I'm not inside where decisions are made but l hope leadership realizes the danger here. It feels like an emergency requiring all hands on deck and not business as usual. I hope Cleveland is working with Federal law inforcement to put an end to the people who are terrorizing our neighborhoods. Cops looking befuddled and then jogging after fleeing cars is not going to cut it. Now is the time for politicians, the legal community, faith groups and law enforcement to come together and stop the lawlessness.

 

Tbf I think that's the thought nationally about most cities, and Cleveland has been relatively under the radar in that regard. 

 

Having said that, 2023 is still ahead of trends from the 70s-90s

80 cars broken into last night in Tremont. I’m honestly at the point where I think we should take the kiddie gloves off of the police.

A Guardians employee literally was carjacked in the Gateway garage today by teenage thugs (seems to be the norm now in this city) threatening her with a gun, saw her call someone after being carjacked, turned around and threatened to shoot her unless she gave up the phone. This was literally during lunch hour. 

I lived downtown for 2 years, had to leave the state for work June 2020. Never in my time there did I see it be this bad. In just one week we've had a mass shooting at Barley House (where a ton of suburbanites go to by the way), another shooting on Public Square with a simultaneous joyrider taunting the cops, more incidents by EY tower as a previous poster mentioned, and now the story I mentioned above. 

 

I don't know how anyone would even want to even step foot downtown anymore, let alone live there. It is literally a free for all and the criminals know it. They know they aren't going to get caught. I used to say I would love to live downtown again, but no way in hell after what has been going on. The mayor is clearly more invested in his piss fight with City Council then getting these criminals under control 

1 hour ago, JB said:

80 cars broken into last night in Tremont. I’m honestly at the point where I think we should take the kiddie gloves off of the police.

Lol you think the cops here have the time or personnel to worry about broken windows? You have a force short by hundreds of officers having to clean up the violent mess going on in this city already. 

 

Even if the cops found these perps, they can't even chase them if they were to run. 

 

It's honestly like the Purge at this point. If I didn't have a moral compass whatsoever, I could honestly break every car window I see downtown, snatch every purse that I see, shoplift every store I want (Just like Geiger's) and literally get away with it no problem. Because if the cops tell me to stop, I could literally start driving 60 mph down Euclid and their sup will tell them to stop the chase before I even reach CSU. 

6 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Lol you think the cops here have the time or personnel to worry about broken windows? You have a force short by hundreds of officers having to clean up the violent mess going on in this city already. 

 

Even if the cops found these perps, they can't even chase them if they were to run. 

 

It's honestly like the Purge at this point. If I didn't have a moral compass whatsoever, I could honestly break every car window I see downtown, snatch every purse that I see, shoplift every store I want (Just like Geiger's) and literally get away with it no problem. Because if the cops tell me to stop, I could literally start driving 60 mph down Euclid and their sup will tell them to stop the chase before I even reach CSU. 

Never said because of broken windows. But I feel like crimes are starting to add up.

1 minute ago, JB said:

Never said because of broken windows. But I feel like crimes are starting to add up.

Like I said, unless you've already started shooting a gun, you are on the lowest priority of this stretched thin department, and can get away with anything. Cops here don't have the manpower for anything except violent crime. 

Mods why do we let someone keep going on these tangents