It would also help to know the background circumstances. These shootings, while tragic, rarely seem to be random innocent people getting hit or even armed robbery fatalities. More like two gang members duking it out or some hothead drunk asses fighting. Not justifying it, or saying a stray bullet couldn't hit a passerby, just saying it helps to know what went down rather than cry "shootings, out of control shootings are rampant!!!"

Definitely seems like some sort of mini war going on between 2 groups. 4th shooting in a very small area in less than 2 weeks. 

 

On the scaring people away front, Short North in CBus and OTR have shootings every other weekend, and both continue to grow. Not saying this isn't a bad situation or anything, but it's part of living in a city in the US unfortunately. 

Yeah as someone who's life decisions have been at least somewhat affected by this... I can say that it has almost no impact on the overall mood of the neighborhood. Gun violence will always happen so long as guns are freely accessible to people with nothing to lose. 

 

Having said that, it certainly makes it harder to have a little girl in the neighborhood. 

Seems like there has been a recent series of car break-ins downtown. Have noticed a lot of broken car window glass scattered about in my parking garage.

Drove past Townhall about 10 minutes ago... slowed down and did an informal head count... 

 

6 people were in there... 

26 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

Drove past Townhall about 10 minutes ago... slowed down and did an informal head count... 

 

6 people were in there... 

 

11:30am on a Wednesday, that doesn't sound out of line at all.

The New York Post is running the Bobby George story. 

2 hours ago, surfohio said:

The New York Post is running the Bobby George story. 

 

This wouldn't have been a national story if he didn't virtue signal all the Olympics BS

Confirmed with a family friend…

 

Townhall had its worst (non-Covid) week since it opened.

 

 Shifts were cut and people told to go home

Cheering the demise of a restaurant is foolish. If all of Bobby's businesses close, that doesn't exactly help his employees or the neighborhood vacancies. Plus the Flats project is now, presumably, DOA, which doesn't help anyone. 

Though I agree I don't really want another vacancy. I would assume the usual townhall crowd found other businesses in the neighborhood to go to causing an uptick for them. It's not a complete net negative.

On 8/18/2024 at 10:39 AM, TBideon said:

Cheering the demise of a restaurant is foolish. If all of Bobby's businesses close, that doesn't exactly help his employees or the neighborhood vacancies. Plus the Flats project is now, presumably, DOA, which doesn't help anyone. 

I’m not cheering it. I’m currently helping a friend find a job because of it. But I’m reporting on an objective fact related to criminal accusations against a business owner

22 hours ago, TBideon said:

Cheering the demise of a restaurant is foolish. If all of Bobby's businesses close, that doesn't exactly help his employees or the neighborhood vacancies. Plus the Flats project is now, presumably, DOA, which doesn't help anyone. 

 

I am happy there are consequences to his actions. The alternative is that there is no reaction and his businesses thrive. I personally would find that extremely disheartening. The most obvious solution would be that he divests himself from the businesses. That only happens if he's forced to by the public refusing to support him. More likely this is just a brief consequence to a bad news cycle.

 

On 8/18/2024 at 10:51 AM, TDi said:

Though I agree I don't really want another vacancy. I would assume the usual townhall crowd found other businesses in the neighborhood to go to causing an uptick for them. It's not a complete net negative.

 

Townhall's main competition is the suburban bars.  The neighborhood is likely losing about 50% of Townhall's drop-off.

Terrible situation.  They found the car almost right away, still nothing on who was driving.   My initial suspicion was it was stolen, but one would think that would be released right away.

 

https://fox8.com/news/7-year-old-boy-on-skateboard-killed-in-cleveland-hit-and-run-police/

1 hour ago, E Rocc said:

 

Townhall's main competition is the suburban bars. 

 

No it isn't. The Flats are their #1 competition and that's coming from the horse's mouth.

2 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Townhall's main competition is the suburban bars.  The neighborhood is likely losing about 50% of Townhall's drop-off.

Yeah, Townhall was the sole reason anyone went to 25th…

I could see Townhall drawing in a MAGA suburbanite crowd in ways that other W25th bars ordinarily wouldn't. 

 

For instance someone walking with a MAGA or Trump hat would probably be left alone or even embraced. Can't say the same for Great Lakes Brewing, Market Garden, etc...

 

 

Edited August 19, 2024Aug 19 by TBideon

On 8/18/2024 at 10:39 AM, TBideon said:

Cheering the demise of a restaurant is foolish. If all of Bobby's businesses close, that doesn't exactly help his employees or the neighborhood vacancies. Plus the Flats project is now, presumably, DOA, which doesn't help anyone. 

If they're smart, the Georges would try to sell Townhall. The bad publicity will all blow over if there's enough coverage about the new management (which there would be).

 

There are some good people who work there, it's a powerful brand, great location, and some good food. The big problem is ownership, and if the Georges are smart they have an opportunity to help out their former employees by keeping the place afloat while also getting some money out of a business that would otherwise have a hard time staying afloat.

18 minutes ago, TBideon said:

I could see Townhall drawing in a MAGA suburbanite crowd in ways that other W25th bars ordinarily wouldn't. 

 

For instance someone walking with a MAGA or Trump hat would probably be left alone or even embraced. Can't say the same for Great Lakes Brewing, Market Garden, etc...

 

 

 

This would require MAGA suburbanites to be willing to go into the war zone that is any densely populated urban area. Not to mention them being traumatized by how hard it is to park their pick-up truck in Ohio City.

 

The horror! 😱

16 hours ago, TBideon said:

I could see Townhall drawing in a MAGA suburbanite crowd in ways that other W25th bars ordinarily wouldn't. 

 

For instance someone walking with a MAGA or Trump hat would probably be left alone or even embraced. Can't say the same for Great Lakes Brewing, Market Garden, etc...

 

 

 

That's my point.   I'm a few years out of the biz and if things have really changed post virus I'm not all the way up on that.  But come to think of it, that crowd's view towards the various restrictions may have carried over.

16 hours ago, Zagapi said:

 

This would require MAGA suburbanites to be willing to go into the war zone that is any densely populated urban area. Not to mention them being traumatized by how hard it is to park their pick-up truck in Ohio City.

 

The horror! 😱

 

Yeah, the higher end bars down there are entirely content to cater to the urban and out-of-town visitor markets.....

Edited August 20, 2024Aug 20 by E Rocc

The cure-all benefits of bone broth are not appealing to just one side of the aisle!

2 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Yeah, the higher end bars down there are entirely content to cater to the urban and out-of-town visitor markets.....

 

Unironically...yes. At least Bobby George has made this his model for Barley House

 

Suburban MAGA folk are not a reliable audience for a bar in the heart of Cleveland. I'm telling you, they avoid the city like the plague and would rather go to their favorite sticky bar in Medina. They think there are bullets flying and not kidding about the parking thing. Every time I tell a suburbanite, MAGA or not, that I live downtown, the first thing they *always* say is "But the traffic and parking must be so terrible!"

 

Whenever pro athletes and celebrities come to Cleveland, this is where they go because Bobby gives them free bottle service. Once word gets out they are there, all of the young "clout-chasers" and "hype-beast" types of Cleveland pack the place hoping to catch a glimpse of whoever is there that night.

 

Source: I'm 25 and I live downtown lmao. Also, I have an old friend in high school that works there and documents all of this on social media.

 

DELETED SOME POSTS AND CLEANED THIS UP BECAUSE THE DEMOGRAPHIC MAKEUP OF THE MUNI LOT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CRIME. 

Whoa!

 

 

 

2 hours ago, KJP said:

Whoa!

 

 

 

 

Busted them right down the street from me, and they closed Lakeshore Blvd.   I'm in Sagamore Hills this evening though.

On 8/21/2024 at 3:18 PM, KJP said:

Whoa!

 

 

 

Just more of the true plague of vehicle-supported violence that never subsides. It's a byproduct of the wider vehicle dependent culture. It's the number one problem in all American cities. First it enabled the abandonment, now we can't re-develop without accommodating its costs and demands, such as parking and drive-thru convenience.

 

Cleveland is a city that could break the pattern with car-free neighborhood development in some of its wide open spaces, but we lack the vision, and are stuck in a regressive set of expectations.

On 8/19/2024 at 8:55 AM, Jax said:

 

I am happy there are consequences to his actions. The alternative is that there is no reaction and his businesses thrive. I personally would find that extremely disheartening. The most obvious solution would be that he divests himself from the businesses. That only happens if he's forced to by the public refusing to support him. More likely this is just a brief consequence to a bad news cycle.

 

 

Consider the demise of his empire, (not at all likely though,) as a public safety service to his young female employees.

21 hours ago, MVH said:

Just more of the true plague of vehicle-supported violence that never subsides. It's a byproduct of the wider vehicle dependent culture. It's the number one problem in all American cities. First it enabled the abandonment, now we can't re-develop without accommodating its costs and demands, such as parking and drive-thru convenience.

 

Huh?????   Now we're blaming violent crime on cars???

(How dare people wish to operate on their own schedules rather than those set by others. )  

2 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Huh?????   Now we're blaming violent crime on cars???

(How dare people wish to operate on their own schedules rather than those set by others. )  

 

Car culture alone isn't responsible for increased crime, its influence on urban design, social interactions, economic disparities, and law enforcement strategies has had significant, sometimes unintended, consequences that contribute to crime rates.

I disagree. Other countries have cars of varying quality, yet not a fraction of US crime. 

 

At the end of the day, and we always dance around the topic, the issue is fundamentally demographics and has been for 60-something years.

4 minutes ago, TBideon said:

I disagree. Other countries have cars of varying quality, yet not a fraction of US crime. 

 

At the end of the day, and we always dance around the topic, the issue is fundamentally demographics and has been for 60-something years.

 

Yep - I always say this when people ask me a thinly-veiled racist question about crime:

 

1. Either you believe that social structures serve certain communities and, thereby, demographics/races better than others, thus leading to less opportunity and a greater proclivity toward crime; or

 

2. You believe certain races have an inherent propensity towards criminality and others don't. 

 

People who refused to acknowledge the legacy of redlining, de facto segregation, etc. have no where else to go by #2. 

5 minutes ago, TBideon said:

I disagree. Other countries have cars of varying quality, yet not a fraction of US crime.

 

That's a flawed comparison, given how walk-able and public transit-friendly many other countries are.

2 hours ago, YABO713 said:

 

Yep - I always say this when people ask me a thinly-veiled racist question about crime:

 

1. Either you believe that social structures serve certain communities and, thereby, demographics/races better than others, thus leading to less opportunity and a greater proclivity toward crime; or

 

2. You believe certain races have an inherent propensity towards criminality and others don't. 

 

People who refused to acknowledge the legacy of redlining, de facto segregation, etc. have no where else to go by #2. 

 

I'd say George W. Bush addressed this one directly in 1999:

"Some say it is unfair to hold disadvantaged children to rigorous standards. I say it is discrimination to require anything less—the soft bigotry of low expectations. Some say that schools can’t be expected to teach, because there are too many broken families, too many immigrants, too much diversity. I say that pigment and poverty need not determine performance. That myth is disproved by good schools every day. Excuse-making must end before learning can begin."

 

I would add that a culture that is indifferent or even hostile to education, where negative role models are rewarded and positive disdained, can't lead anywhere good.

11 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

I'd say George W. Bush addressed this one directly in 1999:

"Some say it is unfair to hold disadvantaged children to rigorous standards. I say it is discrimination to require anything less—the soft bigotry of low expectations. Some say that schools can’t be expected to teach, because there are too many broken families, too many immigrants, too much diversity. I say that pigment and poverty need not determine performance. That myth is disproved by good schools every day. Excuse-making must end before learning can begin."

 

I would add that a culture that is indifferent or even hostile to education, where negative role models are rewarded and positive disdained, can't lead anywhere good.

Okay, which cultures, to your mind, are indifferent and/or hostile to education?

7 minutes ago, Ineffable_Matt said:

Okay, which cultures, to your mind, are indifferent and/or hostile to education?

20 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

While I hesitate to insert myself here, do you see any issue with this question phrased in the reverse? Which cultures place an above average value in education? Or do you think the answer is none, and that all cultures place exactly the same emphasis on education? 

3 minutes ago, Ethan said:

While I hesitate to insert myself here, do you see any issue with this question phrased in the reverse? Which cultures place an above average value in education? Or do you think the answer is none, and that all cultures place exactly the same emphasis on education? 

By "there it is", I meant that #2 in my post above had been reached lol

26 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

By "there it is", I meant that #2 in my post above had been reached lol

 

That's a cop out.  Race is not equivalent to culture.   

 

Do cultures which place a high value on education tend to succeed?  

15 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

That's a cop out.  Race is not equivalent to culture.   

 

Do cultures which place a high value on education tend to succeed?  

Is the culture in Glennville or Hough the same as the culture in West Park? If not, what's the difference maker(s)? What led to that differentiation? Are the most impactful variables primarily in the control of the residents of those respective neighborhoods or not? 

21 hours ago, TBideon said:

I disagree. Other countries have cars of varying quality, yet not a fraction of US crime. 

 

At the end of the day, and we always dance around the topic, the issue is fundamentally demographics and has been for 60-something years.

 

If only one-third of available jobs are within a 90-minute one-way transit trip (as is the case in Greater Cleveland and many other sprawled-out metros that measure tens of thousands of square miles vs dozens of square miles pre-Great Depression), you are going to have higher rates of poverty and thus higher rates of crime, drug use and broken families than in compact cities where you can walk, bike or take extremely frequent transit (every couple of minutes so you're not on anyone else's timetable) to most available jobs. Think about the barriers to entry of the job market in these two realities. One of them costs $100 or less per month and the other one costs $1,000 or more per month per person. Those literally represent the cost of freedom and quality of life in each scenario.

On 8/26/2024 at 10:23 AM, Clefan98 said:

 

Car culture alone isn't responsible for increased crime, its influence on urban design, social interactions, economic disparities, and law enforcement strategies has had significant, sometimes unintended, consequences that contribute to crime rates.

Umm... that's car culture and car dependency. Or maybe that's what you implied?

On 8/27/2024 at 8:20 AM, KJP said:

 

If only one-third of available jobs are within a 90-minute one-way transit trip (as is the case in Greater Cleveland and many other sprawled-out metros that measure tens of thousands of square miles vs dozens of square miles pre-Great Depression), you are going to have higher rates of poverty and thus higher rates of crime, drug use and broken families than in compact cities where you can walk, bike or take extremely frequent transit (every couple of minutes so you're not on anyone else's timetable) to most available jobs. Think about the barriers to entry of the job market in these two realities. One of them costs $100 or less per month and the other one costs $1,000 or more per month per person. Those literally represent the cost of freedom and quality of life in each scenario.

Imagine walking to everything you need "on your own schedule"

On 8/26/2024 at 10:42 AM, YABO713 said:

 

Yep - I always say this when people ask me a thinly-veiled racist question about crime:

 

1. Either you believe that social structures serve certain communities and, thereby, demographics/races better than others, thus leading to less opportunity and a greater proclivity toward crime; or

 

2. You believe certain races have an inherent propensity towards criminality and others don't. 

 

People who refused to acknowledge the legacy of redlining, de facto segregation, etc. have no where else to go by #2. 

 

 

Keeping this about cars......The Automobile industry has known since its inception that there is no way of controlling the designed capabilities of their products.

 

An automobile is the essential criminal tool of anyone who needs to "get away fast." 

Not a good way to promote economic development and quality of life in Cleveland....

 

 

^ I cannot remember the last time I saw so many American cars. 

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Not a good way to promote economic development and quality of life in Cleveland....

 

 

 

@KFM44107what is the CPD rationale for not moving in on these kids.   I get the dirtbikes are hard to chase, but these guys could get penned in pretty easily in an intersection? 

 

 

27 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

@KFM44107what is the CPD rationale for not moving in on these kids.   I get the dirtbikes are hard to chase, but these guys could get penned in pretty easily in an intersection? 

 

 

Idk. Go ask the federal oversight guys. 

1 hour ago, KFM44107 said:

Idk. Go ask the federal oversight guys. 

Yep, you’re not the first person I’ve heard from about the wonderful federal people.