21 hours ago, JB said:

Yep, you’re not the first person I’ve heard from about the wonderful federal people.

 

That's where authority without responsibility inevitably leads.

While I don’t agree with some policies pushed by the Feds (like the above), the fact the Cleveland hasn’t been able to meet the consent decree requirements in over 9 years is sad. And that’s on the City. They need to get it together, meet the requirements and get out.

24 minutes ago, Enginerd said:

While I don’t agree with some policies pushed by the Feds (like the above), the fact the Cleveland hasn’t been able to meet the consent decree requirements in over 9 years is sad. And that’s on the City. They need to get it together, meet the requirements and get out.

If you're getting paid 400k a year as a side gig to be on the consent decree team, do you think you're going to be writing a report stating Cleveland police has met it's objectives thus ending your 400k a year gig? 

Who watches the watchmen's watchmen?

1 hour ago, coneflower said:

Who watches the watchmen's watchmen?

A federal judge

Not specific to Cleveland, but here's a report by the Wall Street Journal (so probably paywalled) arguing that violent crime is up over the last five years specifically in urban areas. They use the National Crime Victimization Survey data which shows an increase in crime limited to urban areas starting in 2019. They argue (I would say persuasively) that it is a more robust dataset than the FBI one frequently cited for reasons presented in the article. 

 

https://www.wsj.com/opinion/contrary-to-media-myth-u-s-urban-crime-rates-are-up-violence-cities-9ce714f6?st=mbCaJW

17 minutes ago, Ethan said:

Not specific to Cleveland, but here's a report by the Wall Street Journal (so probably paywalled) arguing that violent crime is up over the last five years specifically in urban areas. They use the National Crime Victimization Survey data which shows an increase in crime limited to urban areas starting in 2019. They argue (I would say persuasively) that it is a more robust dataset than the FBI one frequently cited for reasons presented in the article. 

 

https://www.wsj.com/opinion/contrary-to-media-myth-u-s-urban-crime-rates-are-up-violence-cities-9ce714f6?st=mbCaJW

Funny that came out the same day Cleveland.com is running a report that crime is down in Cleveland (it is). 

11 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

Funny that came out the same day Cleveland.com is running a report that crime is down in Cleveland (it is). 

Cool, glad to hear we are running counter trend! Any idea why that is? 

2 hours ago, Ethan said:

Cool, glad to hear we are running counter trend! Any idea why that is? 

If I had the answer to that then I'd be a millionaire working as a consultant for all these major cities. 

2 hours ago, KFM44107 said:

Funny that came out the same day Cleveland.com is running a report that crime is down in Cleveland (it is). 

 

I don't know about other cities, but in Cleveland it appears that identifiable victims seem to have had a familiarity with their assailants and/or Common Pleas Court.

 

In other words, tied to either domestic violence or the drug trade. 

3 hours ago, Ethan said:

Not specific to Cleveland, but here's a report by the Wall Street Journal (so probably paywalled) arguing that violent crime is up over the last five years specifically in urban areas. They use the National Crime Victimization Survey data which shows an increase in crime limited to urban areas starting in 2019. They argue (I would say persuasively) that it is a more robust dataset than the FBI one frequently cited for reasons presented in the article. 

 

https://www.wsj.com/opinion/contrary-to-media-myth-u-s-urban-crime-rates-are-up-violence-cities-9ce714f6?st=mbCaJW

 

This isn't a report by the WSJ. It's an opinion piece written by the president ofAmerican Main Street Initiative, which is a conservative think tank. Of course they're going to wrongly paint cities as hellscape dystopias.

 

Perception vs. reality:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/people-think-crime-rate-up-actually-down-rcna129585

10 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

This isn't a report by the WSJ. It's an opinion piece written by the president ofAmerican Main Street Initiative, which is a conservative think tank. Of course they're going to wrongly paint cities as hellscape dystopias.

 

Perception vs. reality:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/people-think-crime-rate-up-actually-down-rcna129585

Who wrote it is ultimately irrelevant as the source of an argument has no bearing on its validity (genetic fallacy). The article you cited relies exclusively on the FBI statistics, which is the source the WSJ article is arguing against.

 

Really this seems to come down to using FBI statistics or the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS). I don't know which is the better route, I merely commented that I thought the article made a strong case for the latter. The two strongest arguments I saw were that the FBI's methodology changed in 2021, making comparisons farther back than that difficult if not impossible, and that reporting precincts are incomplete and inconsistent year to year. 

 

The article you cite doesn't really make an argument in favor or FBI statistics over NCVS statistics, however it does link to one (below) that does make this case. Personally I don't find this case as strong as the one presented in the WSJ. The only methodological problem presented is limited to COVID years, which the WSJ article doesn't consider (it compares before vs after). Beyond that it is mostly theorizing why the data from the survey is incongruous with more hard statistics, primarily those aggregated by the FBI. The article ends by saying the increase from 2019 suggested by the NCVS is plausible. 

 

https://jasher.substack.com/p/did-gun-violence-actually-surge-in

 

As an aside, I tried to independently verify the analysis of the survey, but there isn't a convenient way (that I could find anyway) of doing so beyond just going to the raw data, which I don't have time for. 

I was just pointing out that there's a significant difference between a genuine report by a journalist working for the Wall Street Journal and an opinion piece paid for by someone in the Wall Street Journal.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2024Sep 23 by Clefan98

17 minutes ago, Ethan said:

https://jasher.substack.com/p/did-gun-violence-actually-surge-in

 

 

From the same source:

 

Crime in 2023: Murder Plummeted, Violent and Property Crime Likely Fell Nationally

 

https://jasher.substack.com/p/crime-in-2023-murder-plummeted-violent

 

This is why it's crucial not to allow Donald Trump, Fox News, and conservative think tanks to distort facts and data. Violent crime rates saw a significant decrease in 2023 and are projected to decline further, as these year-to-date murder comparisons demonstrate:

 

 

To be clear murder is not equal to violent crime, murder is only one type of violent crime. For obvious reasons, NCVS, which asks if people have been a victim of crime, does not include murder. It is entirely possible for murder to be down and violent crime to be up. 

 

Also I don't believe the NCVS is out for 2024 yet. The original article was focused on the period of 2019 to 2023. It's possible that when it does come out it will also show a drop. Or not. I don't know. Hopefully it really is now trending down. 

7 hours ago, Ethan said:

To be clear murder is not equal to violent crime, murder is only one type of violent crime. For obvious reasons, NCVS, which asks if people have been a victim of crime, does not include murder. It is entirely possible for murder to be down and violent crime to be up. 

 

Also I don't believe the NCVS is out for 2024 yet. The original article was focused on the period of 2019 to 2023. It's possible that when it does come out it will also show a drop. Or not. I don't know. Hopefully it really is now trending down. 

 

Violent crime typically has largely economic motives or is a result of short term emotion.   As I mentioned above in a different context, murder is usually either personal or "business".

 

A major gang/turf war winding down, for whatever reason, can lead to a significant drop in the homicide rate.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2024Sep 24 by E Rocc

9 hours ago, Ethan said:

To be clear murder is not equal to violent crime, murder is only one type of violent crime. For obvious reasons, NCVS, which asks if people have been a victim of crime, does not include murder. It is entirely possible for murder to be down and violent crime to be up. 

 

 

With homicides having dropped significantly, it's likely that other violent crimes are also in decline. Decades of studying crime trends have shown me this pattern.

 

I only had time to post the raw ytd data for murders, however almost all violent crimes were down in 2023/2024, except car theft.

 

The Quarterly Uniform Crime Report (Q1), January-March, 2024, provides a preliminary look at crime trends for January through March 2024 compared to January through March 2023. A comparison of data from agencies that voluntarily submitted at least two or more common months of data for January through March 2023 and 2024 indicates reported violent crime decreased by 15.2 percent. Murder decreased by 26.4 percent, rape decreased by 25.7 percent, robbery decreased by 17.8 percent, and aggravated assault decreased by 12.5 percent. Reported property crime also decreased by 15.1 percent.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2024Sep 24 by Clefan98

On 9/23/2024 at 3:31 PM, Ethan said:

Who wrote it is ultimately irrelevant as the source of an argument has no bearing on its validity (genetic fallacy)

 

Disagree. Conflicts of interest exist and is why disclosures exist in journal articles. 

21 minutes ago, Jax said:

 

Disagree. Conflicts of interest exist and is why disclosures exist in journal articles. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy

 

"The genetic fallacy (also known as the fallacy of origins or fallacy of virtue)[1] is a fallacy of irrelevance in which arguments or information are dismissed or validated based solely on their source of origin rather than their content. In other words, a claim is ignored or given credibility based on its source rather than the claim itself."

 

Yes, conflicts of interest exists, but they have absolutely zero bearing on whether or not a specific argument is true. If an oil company executive makes an argument in favor of fossil it is either true or untrue. The fact that the person making it is an oil executive is irrelevant. The person making an argument does not change the quality of an argument. It may be a reason to be suspicious, and potentially critical, of the arguments being presented, but once the discussion gets to a specific claim the origin of that claim does not matter at all.

 

Tbh, I don't think this situation would meet the criteria for "conflict of interest," I think that's stretching the term, but my point is that even if there is a conflict of interest in this case, it has no relevance to whether or not the specific claim is true. Arguments stand or fall based on their own merits. 

Social media yesterday and today is full of "street takeover" videos from Cleveland.   Hell, my completely apolitical (afaik) 20-something cousin posted one.   

 

It's becoming a matter of optics and it will impact people's willingness to come down.   

 

Some form of reaction is needed.   If the feds are indeed the problem, they need to be put on blast.   Bibb won't do it, he has no spine.

 

Maybe Sherrod can, and it sure won't hurt his polls.   

I saw the police addressed the street takeovers in the media which is a step in the right direction.

 

From the below article it doesn't even sound like these are being organized locally.  Someone from Cincinnati organized the one over the weekend. 

 

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/cleveland-police-overnight-street-takeovers-large-police-response/95-9bb2d35e-ad6d-4991-a442-53dde00d2b06

 

 

12 minutes ago, TDi said:

I saw the police addressed the street takeovers in the media which is a step in the right direction.

 

From the below article it doesn't even sound like these are being organized locally.  Someone from Cincinnati organized the one over the weekend. 

 

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/cleveland-police-overnight-street-takeovers-large-police-response/95-9bb2d35e-ad6d-4991-a442-53dde00d2b06

Would the police have a way (drone video footage?) to photograph the cars and their license plates and go after these guys later?

4 hours ago, E Rocc said:

Social media yesterday and today is full of "street takeover" videos from Cleveland.   Hell, my completely apolitical (afaik) 20-something cousin posted one.   

 

It's becoming a matter of optics and it will impact people's willingness to come down.   

 

 

5 hours ago, E Rocc said:

Social media yesterday and today is full of "street takeover" videos from Cleveland.   Hell, my completely apolitical (afaik) 20-something cousin posted one.   

 

It's becoming a matter of optics and it will impact people's willingness to come down.   

 

Some form of reaction is needed.   If the feds are indeed the problem, they need to be put on blast.   Bibb won't do it, he has no spine.

 

Maybe Sherrod can, and it sure won't hurt his polls.   

It coincided directly with our move to the suburbs and I've gotten soooo many links to the street takeover stuff and "so happy you're out of there" comments (chill out Aunt Michele). But the optics are very bad - and in some ways things like this probably subtly biased our decision to move. 

 

Having said all that - I'm still firmly in the "this is a mountain out of a mole hill argument", but I would love to see one of these things busted up and the participants thrown in jail. And @KFM44107 could probably comment on this - but this seems like it would be relatively easy to identify the location of a prospective takeover on social media before it happens. 

 

8 hours ago, E Rocc said:

Some form of reaction is needed.   If the feds are indeed the problem, they need to be put on blast.   Bibb won't do it, he has no spine.

 

I don't know whether anyone in the administration reads this forum, but if they do, your "has no spine" comment may have hit a nerve (pun intended).

 

Bibb just announced they're stepping up traffic enforcement action to prevent this and encouraged people to submit tips with any information they may have to help police identify the perps.

6 hours ago, YABO713 said:

It coincided directly with our move to the suburbs and I've gotten soooo many links to the street takeover stuff and "so happy you're out of there" comments (chill out Aunt Michele). But the optics are very bad - and in some ways things like this probably subtly biased our decision to move. 

 

Having said all that - I'm still firmly in the "this is a mountain out of a mole hill argument", but I would love to see one of these things busted up and the participants thrown in jail. And @KFM44107 could probably comment on this - but this seems like it would be relatively easy to identify the location of a prospective takeover on social media before it happens. 

 

It would also only take 6-8 cruisers to block them all in at an intersection.   Even if the perps run, tow and impound their cars and arrest them when they show up to pick them up. 

On 9/30/2024 at 4:46 PM, LlamaLawyer said:

 

I don't know whether anyone in the administration reads this forum, but if they do, your "has no spine" comment may have hit a nerve (pun intended).

 

Bibb just announced they're stepping up traffic enforcement action to prevent this and encouraged people to submit tips with any information they may have to help police identify the perps.

 

I'll be more impressed with authorizing action, or calling out the feds (as part of the problem).   But it's a good start.

Edited October 2, 2024Oct 2 by E Rocc

18 hours ago, Clefan98 said:

 

 

Yeah, I don't think the street takeover participants are living in much fear.   Maybe that's the problem...

Boxing them in sounds easier said than done to me. If it helps, I keep reading articles in the SF Chronicle talking about how the Bay Area is struggling with these idiots as well. Guess we shouldn't design roads where it's so easy to do.

13 minutes ago, Jax said:

Boxing them in sounds easier said than done to me. If it helps, I keep reading articles in the SF Chronicle talking about how the Bay Area is struggling with these idiots as well. Guess we shouldn't design roads where it's so easy to do.

^Meh. That's kind of a non-sequitur in my opinion... 

 

I waited over 45 mins to get out of the Flats one night a couple of years ago because a group of about 40-50 people shut down the Columbus St bridge to film what appeared to be a rap video... they only left when the police scanner got picked up 

2 hours ago, Jax said:

Boxing them in sounds easier said than done to me.  

Agreed.  As soon as they see police, they scatter like cockroaches.  They need to find a way to prevent these events from getting started. 

 

Edited October 1, 2024Oct 1 by LibertyBlvd

This has been happening in most big cities in the US for at least the last 10 years. From what I can tell based on my Googling, there is no sure-fire way to curtail this behavior. All the stuff Bibb is talking about has been done elsewhere to some limited success but it doesn't stop it. It does seem like if the PD was more plugged into when these were happening, they could be more proactive and dissuade some of the more extreme stuff like shooting fireworks off. But at the same time, it'd make things worse to box them in and march on them with riot shields or chase them all over town. It shows how effective "civil disobedience" is in causing disruption--too bad this is completely pointless.

 

I'm surprised these haven't been happening in any suburbs as they are in DC. Feels like only a matter of time.

2 minutes ago, coneflower said:

I'm surprised these haven't been happening in any suburbs as they are in DC. Feels like only a matter of time.

In a way, it has.  Many suburban home days and church festivals have been disrupted in recent years by unruly mobs.

 

Edited October 1, 2024Oct 1 by LibertyBlvd

2 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Agreed.  As soon as they see police, they scatter like cockroaches.  They need to find a way to prevent these events from getting started. 

 

in an intersection like 25th/lorain could be done with 10-12 cruisers.    

Unlike the dirtbikes some of these cars are serious investments.  Let them run, then let K&M towing do their thing to the cars on the way to the impound lot. 

2 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

In a way, it has.  Many suburban home days and church festivals have been disrupted in recent years by unruly mobs.

 

 

Meh - my uncle is a Strongsville fireman and was working OT at their homedays and said a group of 15-20 kids tried turfing a nearby greenspace adjacent to the home days, and the PD and residents stepped in and most of the cars sped off immediately. It's my understanding that they booked at least 2-3 kids that night. 

In some cases, events have been canceled. In Garfield Heights, home days and St. Monica carnival are no longer held.

18 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

In some cases, events have been canceled. In Garfield Heights, home days and St. Monica carnival are no longer held.

 

I was about to bring up the St. Monica's carnival, an absolute institution growing up in Maple Heights as well as Garfield.    Also, you won't find too many fireworks displays in the inner ring.

 

Euclid, Wickliffe, and Concord have had those kind of problems this summer as well.

53 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

I was about to bring up the St. Monica's carnival, an absolute institution growing up in Maple Heights as well as Garfield.    Also, you won't find too many fireworks displays in the inner ring.

 

Euclid, Wickliffe, and Concord have had those kind of problems this summer as well.

 

My best friends dad grew up in Garfield and he'd take us to the St Monica's carnival every summer from probably 1998 - 2005. That's really sad. 

30 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

My best friends dad grew up in Garfield and he'd take us to the St Monica's carnival every summer from probably 1998 - 2005. That's really sad. 

Talking about committing a crime at the St. Monica's carnival...I confess.  My grandmother convinced some very sweet teenage girls to take me on a ride I could not go on myself and I ended peeing my pants.  Like really bad...and I even got the girls wet.  Then I denied I did it even though my pants were drenched.  I wasn't that bright of a kid.  One of the girls was sweet enough to suggest to my grandmother that there might have been residual rain water in the cab of the ride.  Ah memories.  This would have been in the mid 60s.  Of course I am now approaching the age where peeing myself could start being an issue again.  You know...the circle of life.

35 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

Talking about committing a crime at the St. Monica's carnival...I confess.  My grandmother convinced some very sweet teenage girls to take me on a ride I could not go on myself and I ended peeing my pants.  Like really bad...and I even got the girls wet.  Then I denied I did it even though my pants were drenched.  I wasn't that bright of a kid.  One of the girls was sweet enough to suggest to my grandmother that there might have been residual rain water in the cab of the ride.  Ah memories.  This would have been in the mid 60s.  Of course I am now approaching the age where peeing myself could start being an issue again.  You know...the circle of life.

 

@MayDay I think we need another historical marker. 

21 hours ago, Cleburger said:

in an intersection like 25th/lorain could be done with 10-12 cruisers.

Maybe this will inspire city leadership to actually build better pedestrian infrastructure at key intersections. 

 

Curb extensions, pedestrian islands, concrete/bollard protected bike lanes, raised crosswalks or intersections where possible, and other improvements would take a lot of space away and eliminate the ability to do these activities at some intersections. 

 

What would be even better is building some of those bollards that can retract into the ground at key intersections, especially ones that may close for events throughout the year like underneath the chandelier in Playhouse Square. They can be used as better protection for events, and also to trap and confiscate cars that are taking over intersections and streets. 

On 10/1/2024 at 12:46 PM, Cleburger said:

in an intersection like 25th/lorain could be done with 10-12 cruisers.    

Unlike the dirtbikes some of these cars are serious investments.  Let them run, then let K&M towing do their thing to the cars on the way to the impound lot. 

 

I don't bother calling the police unless it's really bad because I know their response times. I highly doubt the department has the capacity to spare 12-two person cars from any district. 

 

Not sure what category the takeovers get, but I'd assume 3/4 based the times I've called them in.

On 10/2/2024 at 9:55 AM, PlanCleveland said:

Maybe this will inspire city leadership to actually build better pedestrian infrastructure at key intersections. 

 

Curb extensions, pedestrian islands, concrete/bollard protected bike lanes, raised crosswalks or intersections where possible, and other improvements would take a lot of space away and eliminate the ability to do these activities at some intersections. 

 

What would be even better is building some of those bollards that can retract into the ground at key intersections, especially ones that may close for events throughout the year like underneath the chandelier in Playhouse Square. They can be used as better protection for events, and also to trap and confiscate cars that are taking over intersections and streets. 

 

The amount of cheap, simple infrastructure I saw in Toronto this weekend was eye opening. They painted TORONTO logo on jersey barriers and put them out into the road. Really tired of the city acting like they're doing amazing traffic calming work when nothing has really changed. They blame RTA and first responders as holding progress up, yet somehow bigger cities with more problems (and streetcars!) can manage. Tired of the city redesigning the wheel at every opportunity (RAPTOR bollards!!). 

 

I'll post some photos in an appropriate thread.

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

 

I don't bother calling the police unless it's really bad because I know their response times. I highly doubt the department has the capacity to spare 12-two person cars from any district. 

 

Not sure what category the takeovers get, but I'd assume 3/4 based the times I've called them in.

I wouldnt worry about the takeovers. Sounds like they arrested almost everyone in Columbus this weekend and confiscated like 40 cars. 

Edited October 8, 2024Oct 8 by KFM44107

Re: Takeovers

 

Another move officers can’t take, according to the chief: boxing the stunt drivers in to prevent their escape. Todd told WTAM that such a tactic wouldn’t be constitutional....

...The city is also considering using large vehicles to block streets, preventing stunt drivers from reaching intersections. Then there are longer-term answers such as street milling – digging grooves into intersections that damage the tires of motorists trying to drift and do donuts. 

https://signalcleveland.org/cleveland-street-takeovers-mayor-justin-bibb-police-response/

16 hours ago, GISguy said:

 

I don't bother calling the police unless it's really bad because I know their response times. I highly doubt the department has the capacity to spare 12-two person cars from any district. 

 

Not sure what category the takeovers get, but I'd assume 3/4 based the times I've called them in.

 

I live near Edgewater.  There are some horrific accidents on the Shoreway (more often than one might think...maybe), and I will routinely see 10 cruisers all parked to close down the Shoreway entrance while a wrecker crew does it's thing to remove flipped cars and debris.   The officers usually park next to each other so they can converse through open windows. 

 

So it's completely possible if there is the will.... 

15 hours ago, KFM44107 said:

I wouldnt worry about the takeovers. Sounds like they arrested almost everyone in Columbus this weekend and confiscated like 40 cars. 

So Columbus had the will.    And the helicopter and coordination. 
 

I'm watching this video and the opening shots had a video of a guy doing donuts around a cruiser.  Why can't the officer just smash into the car, like a pit maneuver in a high speed chase?  

 

 

 

The true problem with these "street takeover" events is how thoroughly they normalize violent driving in general.

4 hours ago, Cleburger said:

So Columbus had the will.    And the helicopter and coordination. 
 

I'm watching this video and the opening shots had a video of a guy doing donuts around a cruiser.  Why can't the officer just smash into the car, like a pit maneuver in a high speed chase?  

 

 

 

You actually have to be trained in doing the pit maneuver to utilize it. No one outside of the traffic guys in Cleveland are trained.