I actually follow crime reports.... It tends to be a bit more widespread and brutal here.

... heartless street thugs who have no respect for others personal belongings or life.  Unfortunately with such evil people out there - there is little police or anyone can do. 

 

There is plenty they could do, like having someone there to watch over a large gathering downtown.  You can't prevent all crime, but this isn't all crime.  This appears to be people getting executed on E 12.  The whole street isn't that long, and the part with nightlife on it is even shorter.  All we have to do is post somebody there for a couple key hours.  Based on deployment patterns I've observed, I don't think a lack of overall manpower is as big a problem as the union (rightly, from their perspective) claims it is.

I just don't get why someone would shoot people in the head just to rob them. Why would you murder two people if you could just punch them or shoot them in the leg or something? I don't know - I just have a hard time believing this was totally random.

This actually happens quite a bit in DC, even in my neighborhood of Adams Morgan (the senseless robberies can be pretty brutal here). I always thought of Cleveland as more civilized. I hope that is still the case..  

 

It can happen anywhere at any time and I'm confident you realize that.   Regardless of city, state or country.

 

Of course it can, but it's meaningless to say that when the truth is that it does happen in some places relatively frequently while it hasn't ever happened in others.  Lightning can strike anywhere too.  I don't recommend standing on top of a treeless hill when it's storming, though.

I agree with 327 here to a degree.  I've lived downtown for 6 years.  And if I can say... "there is no way you will ever find me walking down E. 12th or E. 13th between Chester and Euclid, after dark... particuarly around 13th and Chester"... It seems to me they should be able to hone in on this area with some extra man power and clean it up.  Bottom line is the area surrounding the Parkview is a big, big problem, and it prohibits positive growth.  CMHA and CPD really need to address this particular problem.  It's not like they don't know it exists.

I actually follow crime reports.... It tends to be a bit more widespread and brutal here.

 

I agree.  Philly, DC, Atl and Miami are bad.  Really bad. I've seen & read about some heinous crimes

I agree with 327 here to a degree. I've lived downtown for 6 years. And if I can say... "there is no way you will ever find me walking down E. 12th or E. 13th between Chester and Euclid, after dark... particuarly around 13th and Chester"... It seems to me they should be able to hone in on this area with some extra man power and clean it up. Bottom line is the area surrounding the Parkview is a big, big problem, and it prohibits positive growth. CMHA and CPD really need to address this particular problem. It's not like they don't know it exists.

 

If I have to take the Healthline home, and it's after dark, I get off at E. 9th.  I also refuse to walk along 12th or 13th between Euclid and Chester after dark.  I see CMHA cops, DCA people, and Cleveland police around my house all the time, but I never ever see them along 12th or 13th between Euclid and Superior.

This is sick, I usually park over at my garage at the business building at CSU for indians games.  I dont even feel safe doing that anymore.  That cant happen...when you take steps forward, we cant take giant leaps backward...not in this city where the ice is arleady thin.  Im just disgusted.

In terms of downtown, overall it's gotten leaps and bounds better, it really is just a couple pockets of problem areas.  This is one of those problem areas.  Which is why I don't understand why they don't just flood it with saftey forces and clean it up.

 

Otherwise you just have your random street crimes that could happen in any urban area in the country... typically robberies/assaults that take place between 3-6am.  Unfortunately those are just a sad reality of American cities and are extremely hard to prevent.  The easiest way you can prevent those is common sense.  Traveling in pairs, staying out of poorly lit areas, the wrong "parts" of town, etc. 

 

That being said, there is no excuse for this area to continue to be a problem.  It's no longer random.  And there are too many normal people who live in this area to be subjected to this. The city and CMHA need to deal with this.

This was added to the PD story:   Police are investigating other robberies in the area to see if there are connections, Stacho said.                               Are there typically many robberies in that area, or is it likely somebody was on a robbery rampage?                                                                                                                  

I just don't get why someone would shoot people in the head just to rob them.  Why would you murder two people if you could just punch them or shoot them in the leg or something?  I don't know - I just have a hard time believing this was totally random. 

This actually happens quite a bit in DC, even in my neighborhood of Adams Morgan (the senseless robberies can be pretty brutal here).  I always thought of Cleveland as more civilized.  I hope that is still the case..  

It can happen anywhere at any time and I'm confident you realize that.   Regardless of city, state or country.

Of course it can, but it's meaningless to say that when the truth is that it does happen in some places relatively frequently while it hasn't ever happened in others.  Lightning can strike anywhere too.  I don't recommend standing on top of a treeless hill when it's storming, though.

                        Thank You!

crazy.  they think there might be a connection, between these shootings and the rash of hold ups and domestic violence reports that have plagued this area for years?  I wonder what the common thread is... hmmmm....

I think this is on topic...

 

http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2007/04/01/urban_puzzle/

Of course it can happen anywhere.  But that is not the point.  The point is the frequency it occurs in a particular location.

 

Which of those buildings are CMHA?  There is the one DAS just renovated and the Senior Housing one, correct?

I used to work at 12th and Superior and have to say I am shocked by this story.  I had to work late fairly frequently at that job and never knew this was considered a "problem" area. I don't think any place that is actually a hotel that is open to the public (the entrance to Reserve Square is right there) should have this kind of thing going on so close to their entrance, this is unbelievable. 

^Has PerkPark gotten the go ahead? I wasn't aware of that.

 

*Also my condolences to the families of the victims. This is tough stuff.

I still don't understand.  Were the kids involved in an alteracation inside the bar that carried on outside, or was the altercation the kids behind held up?  Regardelss, this is a tragedy.

I still don't understand. Were the kids involved in an alteracation inside the bar that carried on outside, or was the altercation the kids behind held up? Regardelss, this is a tragedy.

 

There seems to be conflicting evidence....

The solution that no one wants to discuss is simply removing all the CMHA properties. The social/urban-gentrified higher income "targets", that are now in close proximity, just invites conflict.

"Simply removing". Care to explain how that would be simply carried out?

^^I think they should be concentrated.  Not simple, not PC, probably unrealistic.  I just think the notion that if you sprinkle projects in a nice, stable community, that the people will bring themselves up to the standard of living of the community is completely wrong and has never been proven.  Nice idea, but doesn't work.  Instead, they will bring the surrounding area down.  Relocate them to an area already overrun by projects.  They never had family or anything at E.13 & Chester, so there is no attachment.

I hope this one is solved soon. This can and does happen in every big city but that is no excuse for this sort of sick thing to have happened here in Cleveland. What does Portland do differently? That is the solution. If it means more police, then do it. If it means less CMHA, then do it. If it means better security at Scorcher's, then do it. It's great we're talking about this being a problem area now, but what happens when someone is executed somewhere else in Cleveland. Will we just talk about the CMHA and how the area was a trouble zone? Let's react NOW so this shit doesn't happen again. This is directed at city leader's, the police chief, councilmen, and activists who are reading wondering what could be done.

I hope this one is solved soon. This can and does happen in every big city but that is no excuse for this sort of sick thing to have happened here in Cleveland. What does Portland do differently? That is the solution. If it means more police, then do it. If it means less CMHA, then do it. If it means better security at Scorcher's, then do it. It's great we're talking about this being a problem area now, but what happens when someone is executed somewhere else in Cleveland. Will we just talk about the CMHA and how the area was a trouble zone? Let's react NOW so this sh!t doesn't happen again. This is directed at city leader's, the police chief, councilmen, and activists who are reading wondering what could be done.

 

have you been or spent any significant time in portland?

 

I agree there needs to be some discussion.

 

Why not call and email the mayor et al?  You want change be apart of that change.

"^^I think they should be concentrated."--palijandro7

 

"Begin by de-concentrating poverty -- that is, get rid of the projects -- and then rebuild on a smaller-scale in ways that combine multiple uses and diverse populations."

 

Remember the middle class concentrated in the burbs back in the 50's and how that turned out. Poverty is a problem for everyone and pushing it to another location isn't going to help the city in the long run. The project highrise was a poor urban design, look at Chicago.

I find myself angry about this situation.  The fact that some LOSER is out there knowing he did this and so many other lives are affected makes my stomach turn.  I hope someday in my lifetime i see the thug culture brought down and brought down hard.

I'm honestly shocked that some people initially like to just say "it could happen anywhere" as if we shouldn't be disgusted by this?!  The fact that people further try to compare how often it happens in other cities compared to Cleveland is just a way to  dismiss it. 

 

This shouldn't happen anywhere...period.  The fact that it happened in downtown and appears not to be gang-on-gang is even scarier.  Let's not try to dismiss it...writing letters won't do anything.  Government and police know it happenened - they know it's unacceptable.

 

Unfortunately a crime like this can only be committed by a truly evil person - there is very little that government and citizens can do to stop a crazy person like this - let's just hope they catch him and keep him off the street.

Man, this one still hits close to home, even a day after hearing it.

Yeah.  I just read the article with the mothers' news conference.  While any innocent killing is horrific, when the kids seem to be going somewhere, it makes it all the more difficult.

 

I disagree with Cimperman's comments.  This is not the time to tout the safety of downtonw.  In fact, that might have been what pissed me off the most about the article. 

 

I'm also curious why they have not released the skin color of the piece of absolute Sh!t shooters.  It says there were witnesses.  Were they white, black, Asian, etc?

If you were a witness, is there any safe way to see where these fools go?  Say for instance, you saw a murder go down and the guys walking away.  Your first instinct would be to stay the hell away and keep yourself safe...but could you possibly stalk these guys by hiding and sort of following them?  It just seems like I would be scared, but also angry and not want these jerks to get away

I'm also curious why they have not released the skin color of the piece of absolute Sh!t shooters.  It says there were witnesses.  Were they white, black, Asian, etc?

 

Maybe they don't have a good enough description of the criminal (like sex, race, height, weight, dress, or anything else that could lead to an arrest). I am not sure that releasing the criminal's skin color would do much good. If all they have is race, how could that possibly lead to an arrest?

^I think it would narrow the field.  What if you thought you knew who the shooter was, and you thought it was a Latino guy.  Then the news came out that it was 3 white guys.  It would eliminate your suspicions.

^I see your point, but wouldn't you still need more to go on to come closer to catching the criminal(s)? Not to mention, maybe the witnesses didn't get a good look at the guy(s) and couldn't tell what their race was. I think it would be better if they had a mix of descriptions, especially something unique about the guys (like if they have an identifying feature that could help lead to an arrest).

You know that eyewitness stuff isn't all it's cracked up to be.  Think of that experiment where they have someone randomly come into a class and "shoot" the professor, or steal something, and everyone has to write down a description of them.  The descriptions come out mostly wrong, because the brain doesn't store those details unless you were looking for them initially.  Plus, many ethnicities look similar to each other.  At that time of night it could be hard to see a skin tone clearly.

I would think that any information at this point, even if uncertain, is better than nothin and it's silly to discount all eye witness testimony simply because it's not always legally reliable

Of course I wouldn't want them to guess.  But I think I would remember the person's skin tone.  No, not the difference between dark black/black or light-skinned/olive skinned, but I would think I would know black v. white.

That's true, but I don't have a lot of confidence they'll catch anyone for this.  Someone would have to blab.  And catching people is beside the point now.  This could have been prevented and the police should be called out on it.  The first specific change I would make, if possible, would be to recall all mobile traffic camera units and permanently reassign them to downtown murder prevention.  We have a specific downtown unit within the police, it says so on the side of their cruisers.  But you never see those cruisers at night.  That unit needs to be bolstered and its shift scheduling reconsidered.

I just fired off an email to Cimperman saying that I found it appalling that while he acknowledged the horrific crime, he seemed to be selling downtown.  Did he tout the safety of Tremont when asked about his arson?  Even if he did, this is a killing and I think was in poor taste.

That's true, but I don't have a lot of confidence they'll catch anyone for this. Someone would have to blab. And catching people is beside the point now. This could have been prevented and the police should be called out on it. The first specific change I would make, if possible, would be to recall all mobile traffic camera units and permanently reassign them to downtown murder prevention. We have a specific downtown unit within the police, it says so on the side of their cruisers. But you never see those cruisers at night. That unit needs to be bolstered and its shift scheduling reconsidered.

 

The DCA is also only out and about until about bar closing time, not after.  They'd probably need more money to extend their patrols.

^^ I totally agree when it comes to Cimperman and the DCA touting the safety of downtown right now.  It just sounds ridiculous at this time.

 

For whatever reason I have a bad feeling about the police finding the shooters. I know nothing about law enforcement but this happened in an area with security cameras and witnesses, but 2 days later there hasn't been an arrest. I really hope I'm wrong.

 

Also the DCA needs to step up late night patrols, especially in the theater district.

There comes a point when it's no longer DCA's problem.  3am with guns drawn is past that point.  We have downtown CPD, we have RTA PD, we have CMHA PD, we have CSU PD.  That's plenty of people to guard the obvious areas at the obvious times. 

 

I see too many cruisers, of all varieties, driving around aimlessly at midday or harassing others about their driving.  We have a state police force that spends most of its time using radar guns.  That all has to end.  Defend the cities first-- all other goals pale in comparison. 

^ DCA does hire off duty cops so I don't think that this situation is neccessarily beyond what they are supposed to do. I definetly agree with you about the allocation of police resources.

^^Being a loyal follower of the First 48, I think they'll eventually catch them.  From what I've heard, the witnesses are "snitching," so that is a positive sign. 

 

I wish Cleveland would just have officers walking around with machine guns, like you see at any European airport, bank, or tourists destination. 

 

What is Cleveland's police/citizen ration?  Anyone know how it ranks compared to other cities?

I think they need  a police station right there on that block behind the greyhound station.  It needs to be a big one. If we get that kind of stimulus cash, do it.  Chicago has a HUGE police station on the immediate south side that you can see from the orange line.  One way to make people feel more safe is to establish a presence.

Ironically, they just closed a big police station in that general area.  The point of doing that was to get more feet on the streets with the same resources, so I support it.  I believe the former 3rd district HQ on Payne is now some sort of community/safety relations center.  Not sure how that works, or the proper name for it.

 

I don't care where they're based-- they need to be present, on foot, on the streets.

I also wish that we had police or some kind of guardsmen walking around fully armed.  They do in Israel and you feel completely safe as a result.

I have heard the airports in Israel are like Fort Knox, if not even more secure.  I could only dream for such safety and sense of security.

 

 

I also wish that we had police or some kind of guardsmen walking around fully armed.  They do in Israel and you feel completely safe as a result.

 

I disagree.  Seeing 'military" police makes me feel as the area is "unsafe".  Seeing such heavily police protection sends as message that and in order to protect those living, visiting, working, going to school in that area you need to have such drastic law forces out and about.

 

Simply having more police "eyes" on the street and people using common sense will cut down on things like this.

I don't care what "message" it sends.  It works.

 

I knew someone would voice their opposition.  I really do not understand that line of thinking.  In your mind, is one police officer one too many?  I mean, why have police at all if we can so adequately live in a civil society?  While that sounds great, it's not realistic.  Take the few police off the streets in E. Cle, Lakewood, etc and you will see crime stats shoot through the roof.  Look what happened when Campbell laid off all those policemen.

I also wish that we had police or some kind of guardsmen walking around fully armed. They do in Israel and you feel completely safe as a result.

 

I disagree. Seeing 'military" police makes me feel as the area is "unsafe". Seeing such heavily police protection sends as message that and in order to protect those living, visiting, working, going to school in that area you need to have such drastic law forces out and about.

 

Simply having more police "eyes" on the street and people using common sense will cut down on things like this.

 

I agree, seeing a bunch of military police patrolling an area always makes me feel a little uneasy.

I also wish that we had police or some kind of guardsmen walking around fully armed.  They do in Israel and you feel completely safe as a result.

 

I disagree.  Seeing 'military" police makes me feel as the area is "unsafe".  Seeing such heavily police protection sends as message that and in order to protect those living, visiting, working, going to school in that area you need to have such drastic law forces out and about.

 

Simply having more police "eyes" on the street and people using common sense will cut down on things like this.

 

I agree, seeing a bunch of military police patrolling an area always makes me feel a little uneasy.

 

Anyone who's been to Venezuela, Colombia, Nicaragua, El Salvador or Honduras knows what I'm talking about.

I still do not understand.  Does this "uneasiness" mean that you would rather have no police, and therefore increase the risk of crime being committed?  When you balance your "uneasiness" with the increased likelihood you will be a victim, does the uneasiness carry more weight?

I think a lot of it has to do with what you're used to seeing.  Americans aren't used to seeing heavily armed guards.  I think that it would be disruptive to people because of that, not reassuring.  I also have to ask if there is a practical benefit.  It's not as if these guys outgunned some police officers who only had 9mm's.  There just weren't any police there at all.  Let's get more police, period.  Submachine guns or assault rifles are overkill.