I see. I agree, some kids are unparentable. However, if this kid does not have a father in his life, I think that is where some of the blame should lie. We'll see.

^Fair enough. Maybe he was just a bad apple that was wired in a very messed up fashion.

 

However, if he is fatherless, maybe this lack of a positive male role-model played some role.

 

So, does the absence of my father and a "positive male role-model" mean that I am going to start going on killing sprees?

 

I think that this has less to do with whether or not this young man had a father in his life, but more to do with his socialization into society and the possibility that he might be a "bad apple." Not that that is an excuse or anything; what he did was wrong and he should be punished for his crimes.

 

I am not making excuses for the people in this case, or anyone else in other unaccpetable crimes. That said I worked in the child abuse field, and then corrections and the background of trauma with many people is too horrific to repeat. I am still haunted wondering where some of those children are now. I am talking more than a drunk mom or absent father. There is evidence of change in brain development in persons subjected to severe trauma. Many people are not impacted but others are...

 

This is a reality. no one wants to think about it because, yes it is more complicated than throwing up your hands and saying "fry the F*****""  . You fry one w/o questioning the why, there will be another one to take his place.

 

I am not saying these perpetrators don't need to be kept out of society if they are a  danger, it is just too bad there are not more early interventions could save everyone a lot of heart ache (and money too)

I don't understand at all why someone would do this. If your going to mug someone take his money and beat him up, no need to shoot someone. What happened to fighting, these f'in punks are lazy pieces of shTT. I just cant wait till one of these "gangstas" pulls on a gun someone who's packin and they get their head blown off (with more people carrying these days, its only a matter of time). As for it costing more to give them the death penalty then keep them in prison for life, I would rather pay $1000 to kill the punk then $1 to keep him alive for the rest of his life. I live 2 blocks from where this happened, I don't want to have to worry about this kind of stuff. We need to make examples out of these shTT heads. Send him to the chair, lets move on, and continue to make this city better.

Figuring out why people commit heinous crimes is very difficult. There is a wide range of factors that could influence people to do horrible things (environment vs nature). As for giving this kid the death penalty, I don't know. What he did was horrible and I can't possibly imagine what the families of the victims are going through. However, what justifies taking a life for another life? How can we as a moral society kill someone for killing someone. In the end, I guess we will have to let society decide what is right through the jury at the kids trial.

"I might not have the right to decide if what you did is justified by a death penalty, I just have the responsibility to set you up with the one who does"

Wow, the cleveland.com forums are completely lit up.  There's the occasional good point, in particular about the need for public housing reform, though most of the conversation consists of the usual endless black vs white drivel that's missing the point all together.  Crime and poverty, not race guys.  The fact that a lot of these killers are/were black is just incidental.

 

What bothers me most about the murders are the reactions by Cimperman and Jackson, where they are reassuring the public that downtown is safe, these are isolated incidents, and so on.  I find those responses to be inappropriate and naive, especially with so many testimonies about drgu deals and violence around that Perk Park Place (whatever it's called). Not only do Cimperman, Jackson, other city leaders, and the PD (god this town needs a better newspaper) need to acknowledge that crime is a huge problem, with drug deals by Public Square that I've seen, drug deals that I've seen at Mall B and that street where cars are parked, drug deals that I've heard about by the Park where the executions took place, and so on.  That's just too much for a city our size, and our city leaders must acknowledge it and either permit us to properly defends ourselves (Ohio allows concealed arms but a lot of local businesses don't) or do whatever the hell Guiliani did to clean up New York.

sigh...

Wow, the cleveland.com forums are completely lit up.  There's the occasional good point, in particular about the need for public housing reform, though most of the conversation consists of the usual endless black vs white drivel that's missing the point all together.  Crime and poverty, not race guys.  The fact that a lot of these killers are/were black is just incidental.

 

What bothers me most about the murders are the reactions by Cimperman and Jackson, where they are reassuring the public that downtown is safe, these are isolated incidents, and so on.  I find those responses to be inappropriate and naive, especially with so many testimonies about drgu deals and violence around that Perk Park Place (whatever it's called). Not only do Cimperman, Jackson, other city leaders, and the PD (god this town needs a better newspaper) need to acknowledge that crime is a huge problem, with drug deals by Public Square that I've seen, drug deals that I've seen at Mall B and that street where cars are parked, drug deals that I've heard about by the Park where the executions took place, and so on.  That's just too much for a city our size, and our city leaders must acknowledge it and either permit us to properly defends ourselves (Ohio allows concealed arms but a lot of local businesses don't) or do whatever the hell Guiliani did to clean up New York.

 

we disagree.  I don't think there is a problem.  There are incidents.  However, unless YOU get involved how do you propose that the city change.  What are you personally doing to improve downtown.  (that is not a dig but a legit question in response to your post).  Downtown is safe and it's important that the mayor, ciperman, DCD and business know this.  If not all the good work and development being done will fail and it will be tougher to get any new development started.

 

Why do people continue to use the guiliani as a benchmark when he cleaned up a section of manhattan.  Yet ignored the outer boros.  He did not clean up NYC he cleaned p Times Square.

I don't think anyone on this board can definitively state that there "is" or "is not" a crime problem downtown.  First off, what defines a "problem?"  It's very abstract.  I think most could agree there are more incidents downtown than in, say, many of the suburbs however, and that's what is a real problem, because the more "incidents" there are downtown like this one, the more people will avoid coming downtown, first for things like restaurant week, and then for sporting events and concerts.

 

MTS, I know many of us on here are activists and encourage activist behavior, but it is not up to the dozen or hundred local UO people to foster change that will make a big difference in both the perception of crime and the real problem of crime downtown, and I wish you wouldn't always take such an accusatory tone towards people who point out something negative as if it's solely up to us to fix and change all these problems.

I dont live downtown, but I am down there a ton with school and work and I feel safe.  You dont see many murders downtown.  There is a less desireable crowd, but if you play yoru cards right they shouldnt bother you.  If this would have happened in Westlake, do you think people would be scared fo Westlake?

Aw man, this thread was edited!  I had a great response to what was going on all typed up and posted!! :-D :shoot:

"What are you personally doing to improve downtown."

 

Well, I probably spend anywhere from $20-$100 a week downtown for transportation, food, and overall recreation, and I try to maintain a positive image for nondowntown residents.  I informed Tower City security of some drug dealings a few weeks ago too.

 

I probably don't do all that much to be honest, but I'm usually too tired and stressed at the end of the day to really want to volunteer my time at homeless shelters/drug clinics or proactively go to bad spots so I can witness crimes, intervene, contact the police, and so on.

I don't think anyone on this board can definitively state that there "is" or "is not" a crime problem downtown.  First off, what defines a "problem?"  It's very abstract.  I think most could agree there are more incidents downtown than in, say, many of the suburbs however, and that's what is a real problem, because the more "incidents" there are downtown like this one, the more people will avoid coming downtown, first for things like restaurant week, and then for sporting events and concerts.

 

MTS, I know many of us on here are activists and encourage activist behavior, but it is not up to the dozen or hundred local UO people to foster change that will make a big difference in both the perception of crime and the real problem of crime downtown, and I wish you wouldn't always take such an accusatory tone towards people who point out something negative as if it's solely up to us to fix and change all these problems.

 

RNR, what I mean by "improving" is saying something.  too many times people witness or say things like "they should do X" or "why don't they do Y" yet they don't call the police when this is a problem or report something that could lead to a problem.

I don't think that's entirely clear from the way you phrase it, it's quite accusatory as though we should all be organizing marches and vigils every week or demanding meetings with public officials or else we shouldn't complain.

 

I feel most of my incidents of "saying something" amount to absolutely zero change.  When I point out to the officers standing around in tower city that there are a dozen youths standing in front of the "no smoking" sign and smoking in front of the tower city doors, they just stare at me and continue to stand there.  When I called the police (non emergency number) to report someone who was harrassing people going into the W 117th rapid station they said they "probably wouldn't have time" to get over there to check it out.  Many other people have cited similar disinterested responses to times when they have "said something," so what does it really accomplish?

I dont live downtown, but I am down there a ton with school and work and I feel safe. You dont see many murders downtown. There is a less desireable crowd, but if you play yoru cards right they shouldnt bother you. If this would have happened in Westlake, do you think people would be scared fo Westlake?

 

A kid was shot just up the street from me in South Euclid the other month.  I don't feel unsafe.  These things happen, especially in the age where guns are so glorified, and its tragic.  I think if you did some research on the murders in the City of Cleveland, you would find a very miniscule percentage occuring downtown.  I continue to walk the streets of downtown with security.

 

On the issue of what punishment should be given to these thugs, I would throw the book at them but have to admit do not agree with the death penalty on principle.

 

There are several types of murder (listed in descending order of seriousness):

 

1) Pre-meditated - meaning it was thought out and planned

2) Felony murder - meaning somebody died during the commission of a felony, regardless of who killed the vicitim or how he/she died... the perpetrator of the felony is liable for the death

3) Voluntary manslaughter - occurs in the heat of passion (such as a husband killing a cheating spouse in a fit of rage)

4) Involuntary manslaughter - oops... I ran you over with my car.

 

All the criminals here are guilty of either (1) or (2).  If it was planned to kill the victims before the commission of the crime, then all 5 are guilty of pre-meditated murder.  If just one of the thugs lost it during the robbery and killed the two victims, the trigger man is guilty of (1) and his cohorts would be guilty of (2) regardless if killing the victims was part of the plan.

 

Now, which one of those above listed examples most resembles the State of Ohio carrying out an execution on a pre-arranged date and time.  On the other hand, think of the "A Time to Kill" situation where a father kills his daughters' rapists and decide which category that act falls under.  Not saying that I support vigilante justice, but isn't it ironic that the former is legal (and often encouraged) but the latter is illegal?

I don't think that's entirely clear from the way you phrase it, it's quite accusatory as though we should all be organizing marches and vigils every week or demanding meetings with public officials or else we shouldn't complain.

 

I feel most of my incidents of "saying something" amount to absolutely zero change.  When I point out to the officers standing around in tower city that there are a dozen youths standing in front of the "no smoking" sign and smoking in front of the tower city doors, they just stare at me and continue to stand there.  When I called the police (non emergency number) to report someone who was harrassing people going into the W 117th rapid station they said they "probably wouldn't have time" to get over there to check it out.  Many other people have cited similar disinterested responses to times when they have "said something," so what does it really accomplish?

 

I'm going to say this only once.  You're reading too much into my message.  If we don't say anything nothing changes.  You might not want to say anything and that is fine, but if the citizens of the city don't say anything to anyone, nothing will ever change and we'll be chasing our tails just "talking" about change.

 

If you called the non emergency number and nothing happened, I would have called the councilman for that ward, but that's just me.

 

You example of TC is why it's failing.  I would have brought that up to mgmt, and the police, but that's just me.

Again, I really wish you'd stop accusing everyone of being less perfect than you.  I DID bring it up with TC management after seeing no response from the police.  I am not the only one that thinks you are like this.  How about thinking about it instead of just insisting "everyone else" is the problem and you're the only one doing anything to foster change?

Wow, I'm just loving this week. Okay folks, take it to cleveland.com, because that's how the back-and-forth is starting to sound. This thread is locked until further notice.

Arsenio Winston, once called 'crack dealing piece of trash,' gets 11 years in prison

 

Posted by Donna J. Miller/Plain Dealer Reporter March 26, 2009 17:11PM

 

 

CLEVELAND --- A man once called a "crack dealing piece of trash" by Councilman Mike Polensek is going to prison for 11 years for three armed robberies. Arsenio Winston, 20, accepted a plea deal and agreed to testify against his co-defendant, Marshall Butts. Butts, also 20, took a plea deal as his trial was about to begin and was sentenced to nine years in prison.

 

Click for a PDF of the letter in question: http://blog.cleveland.com/pdextra/2007/07/letter.pdf

 

More at cleveland.com

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/03/arsenio_winston.html

......

 

Well Mom, looks like your childrearing was ineffective and inappropriate. :roll:

^ Haha, right on with the ineffective and inappropriate!!!!

Arsenio Winston, once called 'crack dealing piece of trash,' gets 11 years in prison

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/03/arsenio_winston.html

Posted by Donna J. Miller/Plain Dealer Reporter March 26, 2009 17:11PM

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/09/small_Winston.jpg

 

...

 

The drug deal occurred in Polensek's ward and he often writes blunt letters to troublemakers in his neighborhood. The letter sparked a controversy when Winston's mother complained that it was racist and inappropriate.

 

Click for a PDF of the letter in question: http://blog.cleveland.com/pdextra/2007/07/letter.pdf

......

 

Well Mom, looks like your childrearing was ineffective and inappropriate. :roll:

 

Childrearing? :? That trifflin' heifer didn't do a damn thing! She should be locked up as well. It's not like she didn't know what was going on.

I love it when people pull the race card instead of owning up to their wrongdoings.

 

Basically, these types of people blame others for their own problems.

what kind of a dumbass robs a scrapyard anyway.  It's not like they're overflowing with cash.  How sh*tty.

Now aint this some sh!t?!

 

I wonder if they will be charged with a hate crime?

---

Massillon man and woman accused of attacking Hispanic man

Posted by Donna J. Miller/Plain Dealer Reporter April 06, 2009 13:40PM Categories: Breaking News, Crime

 

CLEVELAND &mash; A Massillon man and woman were arrested Saturday night, accused of beating a 50-year-old man because he spoke Spanish.

 

Brian K. Leasure, 41, and Kimberly Stitt, 43, face assault charges.

 

...

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/04/massillon_man_and_woman_accuse.html

Wow, if they are that discriminatory, what were they doing at a bar on E. 55th?!?

And why did they drive there from Massillon?  Classic case of crime coming in from the exurbs...

Wow, if they are that discriminatory, what were they doing at a bar on E. 55th?!?

 

I can be for sure, but I think that area is mixed.

 

The Latino population is mostly in the 70s

And why did they drive there from Massillon?  Classic case of crime coming in from the exurbs...

 

They were actually headed to University Circle but they could figure out how to get there when they exited 490...  :-D

I wouldn't call Massillon an exurb.  It was really a small industrial town of its own, with its own poorer and richer parts.  I also wouldn't assume too much about the profile of the perpetrators of this crime.

I wouldn't call Massillon an exurb.  It was really a small industrial town of its own, with its own poorer and richer parts.  I also wouldn't assume too much about the profile of the perpetrators of this crime.

 

HUH.  They looked like two racist drunks!  Period!  How do they even know he's of mexican decent?!

 

They lucky that wasn't me!

Two racist drunks yes.  I'm not defending them.  I'm only saying people are making some assumptions about what the incident means that I wouldn't.

Two racist drunks yes.  I'm not defending them.  I'm only saying people are making some assumptions about what the incident means that I wouldn't.

Gotcha!  I agree wait for the investigation, but it leaves me with a nasty feeling.

Definitely a horrendous crime.  But I had to laugh at Massillon being called an exurb.  327, have you ever been to Massillon?  It's a pretty depressed old city.  Exurbanites would run from it faster than a lot of bigger cities.

Definitely a horrendous crime. But I had to laugh at Massillon being called an exurb. 327, have you ever been to Massillon? It's a pretty depressed old city. Exurbanites would run from it faster than a lot of bigger cities.

 

It was just a bad joke.  They do have a nice football field.  There's a picrure of Paul Brown on the scoreboard that lights up.

Sorry, missed the joke I guess.  I've met Obie a few times.  It is a nice field, just was there this past fall.  One thing to note if you ever go to a football game in Massillon...there are very few if any good restaurants downtown.

 

Anyways, back to Cleveland crime.

Weird, I feel like I'm in Tennessee again. You just don't hear about stuff like this in Cleveland.

 

 

 

Massillon man and woman accused of attacking Hispanic man

Posted by Donna J. Miller/Plain Dealer Reporter April 06, 2009 13:40PM Categories: Breaking News, Crime

 

CLEVELAND &mash; A Massillon man and woman were arrested Saturday night, accused of beating a 50-year-old man because he spoke Spanish.

 

Brian K. Leasure, 41, and Kimberly Stitt, 43, face assault charges.

 

...

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/04/massillon_man_and_woman_accuse.html

http://www.cleveland.com/morris/index.ssf/2009/04/take_back_neighborhood_streets.html

 

Take back neighborhood streets from criminals: Phillp Morris

by Phillip Morris/Plain Dealer Columnist

Thursday April 09, 2009, 6:15 AM

I hope Sam Slayton is wrong.

 

I hope his theory on why Jason Cummings, his friend and colleague, was shot and killed late Saturday night after leaving work at a Glenville barbershop is off base.

 

But the scary thing is I think the big guy is on to something. I think his theory helps explain some of the senseless violence this community continues to suffer.

 

...

No earth shattering suggestions there, but I agree with what Morris is saying.  The good guys should be as armed as the bad guys.  This is assuming we cannot marshall any more police resources, like all the "mobile speed camera" units for example.  I'd prefer to have Glenville sufficiently patrolled than to have everybody armed to the teeth.  But anything is better than gangs running the show. 

 

We've already been through the snitching issue on here.  I would only add that if it looks like the gangs are winning and the cops are losing, why would informants side with the cops?  I haven't heard anyone talk about adding significant numbers to urban police forces since Clinton in the mid 90s.

On Friday I met with my kids from Glenville.  The boys were trying to tell me that gangs weren't that bad and that when mommas smoke weed it isn't hurting anyone.  I asked what if she has kids?  They told me the kids would probably join them.

 

I also asked them what would happen if a white boy like myself was just walking up 105th.  They told me it would probably be a guarantee jump, or that people would think I was looking for drugs.

I wish any money cut from defense would go to law enforcement.

Were they saying that the gang problem is less than it's made out to be, or were they saying the gangs themselves aren't so bad?

The latter.  I asked them what they provide for them that a sports team doesn't prove.  Answer: $$, power, and more safety.

Interesting.  Gangs typically form, and are tolerated in the communities where they form, because the dominant system of authority has neglected or marginalized that community.

Cleveland.com

Former Ohio State football star Donte Whitner arrested in Cleveland

Posted by Mark Naymik April 11, 2009 11:38AM

 

CLEVELAND -- Buffalo Bills defensive back and former Ohio State star Donte Whitner was tasered and arrested early this morning following a birthday celebration at the House of Blues, police said.

 

Whitner, 23, remains in City Jail. He has not been formally charged but was arrested for aggravated disorderly conduct and resisting arrest, police Lt. Thomas Stacho said.

 

...

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

Anybody out last night and see this? Sounds like a melee.

 

 

That's what all that noise was?

Apparently.  I read in the paper today that Whitner was going back in to get his cousin because there were "guns."  Wouldn't it have been nice for the continued progress of E.4th if a bunch of gang-bangers shot up the place.

Protesters say judge was too easy on graffiti suspects

Posted by Mark Puente/Plain Dealer Reporter April 13, 2009 13:04PM

 

 

CLEVELAND — Councilman Joe Cimperman led a protest Monday with 40 city residents against a county judge they said went easy on a pair of vandals.

Cimperman denounced Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Judge Eileen A. Gallagher's decision to dismiss charges against one graffiti artist and reduce charges against another. The men were accused of spray painting hundreds of buildings, light poles and other public property.

 

 

 

More at Cleveland.com

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/04/protesters_say_judge_was_too_e.html

Are these the two bums from the 'burbs that trash talked Cleveland?

 

Bob Shores, hats off!  They deserve a stiffer penalty and some time in a cell with Bubba.

The guy should be forced to repaint everything he has desecrated.  She should have given him a creative punishment.  Sending a guy to prison for something like this, when the prisons are already overpopulated, doesn't seem to fit.

The guy should be forced to repaint everything he has desecrated.  She should have given him a creative punishment.  Sending a guy to prison for something like this, when the prisons are already overpopulated, doesn't seem to fit.

I was being overly dramatic/sarcastic, but he should pay.  there should be a penalty and a monetary fine along with community service.

 

If they want to "paint" have them paint homes in run down areas.  Repaint lines on sidewalks, streets, city signs, etc.

 

What if a bunch of Cleveland folks went to his 'hood and tagged?  I bet people would scream for the death penalty.