Are all these murders counted for this year stats? Even though some may have died years back?

I know there may be a few instances where people are in jail for harmless crimes, but for the most part,

 

Or a few million instances, depending on your view of personal drug use.  But anyway, I agree that this probably doesn't have much to do with prison overcrowding.  I have no idea how this relates to hate crime legislation though.  And I disagree this has to do with naive expectations for rehabilitation.

 

This stuff is hard because, for pretty good reasons, we generally don't imprison people for crimes they haven't committed.  There are exceptions, of course, and I'm guessing those exceptions will continue to expand in response to horrible cases like this.

 

Agreed on the nonviolent drug crimes, certainly it's much more sensible to let those offenders out and keep the violent ones locked up.

 

As for "hate crimes", it's true that topic relates to the Sowell case only indirectly (would he be treated differently as a white man killing black women?).  It's a sore subject for those of us on the right because we think it allows the left to have their cake and eat it too.  Considering the exact same crime to be worse for strictly political reasons is IMO dangerous.  It contaminates the justice system.

SeeTorso murders-1930's Cleveland. They knew who he was but even Elliot Ness couldn't put him away.

 

Not everyone believed/believes that Sweeney was anything more than a sarcastic pest.

Agree with you X, 100 percent.

 

Don't forget, however, that even before the police allegedly dropped the ball here, this Sowell character should have never, ever been let out of prison. Evidently, we need more prison space and harsher sentences for violent rapists.

 

^Actually, I think this shows how incompetent certain elements of the CPD are, given that, per that NYT article, there was "citizen involvement" in the form of calls to the police.

 

Maybe we should stop filling the many prison cells we have already with nonviolent offenders?

I know there may be a few instances where people are in jail for harmless crimes, but for the most part,

 

Or a few million instances, depending on your view of personal drug use.  But anyway, I agree that this probably doesn't have much to do with prison overcrowding.  I have no idea how this relates to hate crime legislation though.  And I disagree this has to do with naive expectations for rehabilitation.

 

This stuff is hard because, for pretty good reasons, we generally don't imprison people for crimes they haven't committed.  There are exceptions, of course, and I'm guessing those exceptions will continue to expand in response to horrible cases like this.

 

Agreed on the nonviolent drug crimes, certainly it's much more sensible to let those offenders out and keep the violent ones locked up.

 

As for "hate crimes", it's true that topic relates to the Sowell case only indirectly (would he be treated differently as a white man killing black women?).  It's a sore subject for those of us on the right because we think it allows the left to have their cake and eat it too.  Considering the exact same crime to be worse for strictly political reasons is IMO dangerous.  It contaminates the justice system.

 

You do realize that hate crimes work both ways, right?  You don't have to be white to be guilty of one.  You also must realize that hate crimes have an intent element or mens rea not present in non-hate crimes.

 

Let me try to explain.  Beating someone up for their money or b/c you are an a&&hole is not the "exact same crime" as beating someone up because of their race/gender/religion/ethnicity/sex orientation/etc.  The intent is different and the impact on the victim is totally different.  Essentially what you are saying is that all homicides and other broad categories of crimes should be grouped together for purposes of sentencing (regardless of intent).  In other words, a man who kills in the heat of passion is the same as a man who carefully plans and commits a murder.  Thankfully, our laws are not so simple minded. 

Not exactly what I said Arnie Becker!

Relax Rox... I wasn't responding to what YOU said.

One other thing about a hate crime that is pertinent in my mind is that it is often a tool towards the larger goal of intimidating a populace.  It's really very similar in concept to terrorism, or to high profile political execution in totalitarian states.  Terrorists/totalitarians use the death and destruction that they create as a means to control a population- to scare them away, keep them isolated, or away from the levers of power.

The

SeeTorso murders-1930's Cleveland.  They knew who he was but even Elliot Ness couldn't put him away. 

 

Not everyone believed/believes that Sweeney was anything more than a sarcastic pest.

Then why did he commit himself to a mental hospital shortly before he was going to be arrested?

LOL watch the attached video!!! He literally eats evidence!

 

Did Bank Robbery Suspect Eat Evidence?

 

STREETSBORO, Ohio (Nov. 21) -- Police say a bank robbery suspect in Ohio may have eaten evidence when he gobbled a piece of paper while handcuffed and lying across the hood of a police cruiser.

After reading some of the recent comments on here about the Sowell incident, just so its documented on the forum, I would like to note the fact that only 2 out of 11 women were ever reported missing to the CPD (1 more in Warrensville Heights I believe). And yes, he should have never been let out of prison to begin with, but thats not the CPD's fault, thats the Systems fault (Legislators, Judges, and Lawyers). And because of those same group of people, CPD (or the Sheriffs Office whose actual jurisdiction the Sex Offender venue is) cannot just enter a registered sex offenders house and do a spot check (IMO they should, but they cant) without PROBABLE CAUSE. So really, who dropped the ball? The CPD who did everything that they were LEGALLY allowed to do, or everyone who made a profit, campaign contribution, or vote off of questioning/chastising what PROBABLE CAUSE really is? This is the system others have created for us!! And this is the result. Hope ur happy, I know im not, I ll just blame the police, its easiest that way!

I thought this would be a good place to say this.  As you may know I spent last weekend in Cleveland.  On Thursday I went to AAA to get maps and visitor guides and the guy there said part of the week he works near Cleveland and he told me to be careful because there has been a lot of assaults on young men downtown lately.  Not that I was worried or anything.  But I was just wondering if this is true.

My car was broken into this week, as were several others I was told.  Not sure if the assaults and break ins are correlated, but it is possible.

I haven't heard anything about it.

My car was broken into this week, as were several others I was told.  Not sure if the assaults and break ins are correlated, but it is possible.

 

Where do you live and what location was your car broken into?

I thought this would be a good place to say this. As you may know I spent last weekend in Cleveland. On Thursday I went to AAA to get maps and visitor guides and the guy there said part of the week he works near Cleveland and he told me to be careful because there has been a lot of assaults on young men downtown lately. Not that I was worried or anything. But I was just wondering if this is true.

 

seems to me, just a sububan worker giving his uneducated perception of the evil city.

I thought this would be a good place to say this. As you may know I spent last weekend in Cleveland. On Thursday I went to AAA to get maps and visitor guides and the guy there said part of the week he works near Cleveland and he told me to be careful because there has been a lot of assaults on young men downtown lately. Not that I was worried or anything. But I was just wondering if this is true.

 

seems to me, just a sububan worker giving his uneducated perception of the evil city.

 

I hadn't heard anything like that either.

Burt Reynolds robs cleveland bank.  The guy looks like burt!

---

Chase Bank branch on Detroit Avenue robbed this morning; FBI releases robbers photo

By Donna J. Miller, Plain Dealer reporter 

December 14, 2009, 1:29PM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio — A man robbed the Chase Bank branch at 6610 Detroit Avenue about 10 a.m. today.

 

The robber first went into an emloyee's office, indicated that he had a gun and forced her to walk with him to a teller's window.

 

more at:  http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/12/chase_bank_branch_on_detroit_a.html

Burt Reynolds robs cleveland bank. The guy looks like burt!

---

Chase Bank branch on Detroit Avenue robbed this morning; FBI releases robbers photo

By Donna J. Miller, Plain Dealer reporter

December 14, 2009, 1:29PM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio A man robbed the Chase Bank branch at 6610 Detroit Avenue about 10 a.m. today.

 

The robber first went into an emloyee's office, indicated that he had a gun and forced her to walk with him to a teller's window.

 

more at: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/12/chase_bank_branch_on_detroit_a.html

 

Holy sh!t he does!  Maybe it is him!  Add him to the list of celebrities in financial trouble!  Hahaha.

Police arrest 4 suspects in Thursday night shooting death

By Michael Sangiacomo

December 18, 2009, 7:15AM

UPDATED: 7:19 A.M.

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Four suspects were taken into custody about 6 p.m. Thursday in connection with the shooting death of an18-year-old Cleveland man in a downtown apartment building known for drug activity there.

 

Shane Williams was shot about 5:30 p.m. in the hallway of the 18-story Parkview Apartments building on East 13th Street. He was taken to MetroHealth Medical Center and pronounced dead at 6:21 p.m., according to Cuyahoga County coroner's spokesman Powell Caesar.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/12/police_arrest_4_suspects_in_th.html

 

I was wondering why there were a bunch of cop cars there last night......

Is that the Section 8 building right next to Reserve Sqaure??

Is that the Section 8 building right next to Reserve Sqaure??

 

Yes, the one across Chester that was a hotel way way back when.  THE reason why I don't like taking the Healthline in the evenings.

I've actually had two run-ins there, now that I see what we're talking about.  I got in a fight there two years ago, and was held up for my watch last year.  I was too drunk to fight back that night and it was 3 on 1...

 

 

Yeah... Parkview is probably the only element in downtown that the alarmists can latch on to with any true grip.  I thought that building was going to be made into strictly senior housing?

Is there any possibility of these apartments NOT being section 8 housing once it receives the $2.2 million tax credit in July? Many people out in the burbs do not see all of the good news about downtown but they do see this crap, which just gives them more of a reason to stay away. Especially with Reserve Square and the Chesterfield bordering the Allerton, and the Avenue District down the street, something needs to be done to rid that part of downtown from this crap

Is there any possibility of these apartments NOT being section 8 housing once it receives the $2.2 million tax credit in July? Many people out in the burbs do not see all of the good news about downtown but they do see this crap, which just gives them more of a reason to stay away. Especially with Reserve Square and the Chesterfield bordering the Allerton, and the Avenue District down the street, something needs to be done to rid that part of downtown from this crap

 

Not when it's such a good effing deal for the landlords to keep it Section 8.

It really is the only part of Downtown I've ever felt unsafe, and I can usually hold my own. 

 

Too bad there can't be a city ordinance banning such apartments within the downtown district...so the owner can't just sit back on his cash cow and seemingly not care.  It's those few bad apples who ruin it for everyone and really sway my opinion.

Is there any possibility of these apartments NOT being section 8 housing once it receives the $2.2 million tax credit in July? Many people out in the burbs do not see all of the good news about downtown but they do see this crap, which just gives them more of a reason to stay away. Especially with Reserve Square and the Chesterfield bordering the Allerton, and the Avenue District down the street, something needs to be done to rid that part of downtown from this crap

 

Why should EVERYONE in that building suffere due to the acts of a few?  I agree that some tenants need to be evicted, but it's a management issue.

Is there any possibility of these apartments NOT being section 8 housing once it receives the $2.2 million tax credit in July? Many people out in the burbs do not see all of the good news about downtown but they do see this crap, which just gives them more of a reason to stay away. Especially with Reserve Square and the Chesterfield bordering the Allerton, and the Avenue District down the street, something needs to be done to rid that part of downtown from this crap

 

Why should EVERYONE in that building suffere due to the acts of a few? I agree that some tenants need to be evicted, but it's a management issue.

 

Because it seems to be a constant and recurring issue with the drug-related and other crimes taking place in and around the building. It may only be the acts of a small percentage of those living there but it is a reflection on everyone in the building. I have no issue with section 8 housing and helping the low income families, but if there could be a way to turn this building into non section 8 and improve the safety and perception toward the building, corner, and entire community surrounding the Allerton then whats the problem? Everyone wants a safer downtown and if this is one of the bad spots that we know about then its time to fix it.

Nothing a little specifically targeted order-maintenance policing can't solve.  Cle Hts may have been in the crapper years ago if not for the fact that you can't go two blocks without driving by a cop.

Nothing a little specifically targeted order-maintenance policing can't solve. Cle Hts may have been in the crapper years ago if not for the fact that you can't go two blocks without driving by a cop.

 

And yet on this side of downtown, there is more of a DCA presence than a police presence.  Not that I'm complaining about DCA presence, but the cop to DCA ratio is completely disproportionate compared to other portions of downtown.  Hell, I got pulled over by a DCA dude because I forgot to turn my headlights on after pulling out of my driveway.

I didn't realize that DCA could pull you over.

Is there any possibility of these apartments NOT being section 8 housing once it receives the $2.2 million tax credit in July? Many people out in the burbs do not see all of the good news about downtown but they do see this crap, which just gives them more of a reason to stay away. Especially with Reserve Square and the Chesterfield bordering the Allerton, and the Avenue District down the street, something needs to be done to rid that part of downtown from this crap

 

Why should EVERYONE in that building suffere due to the acts of a few?  I agree that some tenants need to be evicted, but it's a management issue.

 

Because it seems to be a constant and recurring issue with the drug-related and other crimes taking place in and around the building. It may only be the acts of a small percentage of those living there but it is a reflection on everyone in the building. I have no issue with section 8 housing and helping the low income families, but if there could be a way to turn this building into non section 8 and improve the safety and perception toward the building, corner, and entire community surrounding the Allerton then whats the problem? Everyone wants a safer downtown and if this is one of the bad spots that we know about then its time to fix it.

 

Why does it have to be non "public assistance" to be turned around???  There are a lot of people who are not on public assistance, yet are bad tenants.

Nothing a little specifically targeted order-maintenance policing can't solve.  Cle Hts may have been in the crapper years ago if not for the fact that you can't go two blocks without driving by a cop.

 

Or being pulled over by on.  Sheesh!

I didn't realize that DCA could pull you over.

 

Neither did I, and the guy was being a total duche about it too.  I seriously thought he was gonna try to give me a ticket or something.

I hate CMHA, they do such a crappy job of screening residents for their properties.

Does anybody know what level of lawful authority the DCA has?

 

Any citizen can make an arrest for a felony, but only official law enforcement officers can seize the person when a misdemeanor or traffic violation is committed.  So.... what's the deal with DCA?  Have they been granted some sort of authority beyond that of a neighborhood watchdog?

I used to live in both the Chesterfield and the Statler and the Parkview (combined with some transient bus station issues) was a constant source of police interaction.  I remember coming home many a nights to find Chester blocked by cruisers and large fights being broken up.

I hate CMHA, they do such a crappy job of screening residents for their properties.

 

Is it technically CMHA?  It's Section 8.  I'm a little undereducated in the Section 8 process, so sorry if that's a dumb question.

I hate CMHA, they do such a crappy job of screening residents for their properties.

 

Is it technically CMHA? It's Section 8. I'm a little undereducated in the Section 8 process, so sorry if that's a dumb question.

 

Allerton is NOT CMHA. Section 8, HUD, but not CMHA.

then the ownership group / management need to be held accountable for the types of people they alllow in their properties.

Does anybody know what level of lawful authority the DCA has?

 

Any citizen can make an arrest for a felony, but only official law enforcement officers can seize the person when a misdemeanor or traffic violation is committed.  So.... what's the deal with DCA?  Have they been granted some sort of authority beyond that of a neighborhood watchdog?

 

the DCA people driving the ford escape are all off duty police officers, so they would still have some arrest powers and could conceivably give you a ticket, but i'm pretty sure they they don't carry a ticket book.

 

the law must have recently changed in Ohio, b/c now when you see an off duty officer doing a security detail in a car, they can use the red and blue lights as well - used to have to be yellow or green.

Then they are making those stops in their capacity as Cleveland Police Officers, not DCA employees.

Does anybody know what level of lawful authority the DCA has?

 

Any citizen can make an arrest for a felony, but only official law enforcement officers can seize the person when a misdemeanor or traffic violation is committed. So.... what's the deal with DCA? Have they been granted some sort of authority beyond that of a neighborhood watchdog?

 

the DCA people driving the ford escape are all off duty police officers, so they would still have some arrest powers and could conceivably give you a ticket, but i'm pretty sure they they don't carry a ticket book.

 

the law must have recently changed in Ohio, b/c now when you see an off duty officer doing a security detail in a car, they can use the red and blue lights as well - used to have to be yellow or green.

 

Yes, it was a dude in a DCA Escape with the red and blue lights instead of yellow who pulled me over.

Does anybody know what level of lawful authority the DCA has?

 

Any citizen can make an arrest for a felony, but only official law enforcement officers can seize the person when a misdemeanor or traffic violation is committed.  So.... what's the deal with DCA?  Have they been granted some sort of authority beyond that of a neighborhood watchdog?

 

the DCA people driving the ford escape are all off duty police officers, so they would still have some arrest powers and could conceivably give you a ticket, but i'm pretty sure they they don't carry a ticket book.

 

the law must have recently changed in Ohio, b/c now when you see an off duty officer doing a security detail in a car, they can use the red and blue lights as well - used to have to be yellow or green.

 

Yes, it was a dude in a DCA Escape with the red and blue lights instead of yellow who pulled me over.

 

Maybe they didnt like your exterior light display!  :wtf:  You being a celebutante and all, they expect more.

Unless things have changed very dramatically over the past twelve years, it's very difficult to evict a tenant, particularly one that pays the rent more or less on time.

 

Housing Court is extremely pro-tenant, probably for the very practical reason that tenants are all potential voters and landlords often are not.

how do you find out "what happened" on a block? I was driving to my parents house last night in Shaker when I saw a ton of police, looked like guns drawn on a man standing on the sidewalk (no non-police vehicle in sight). My folks had no idea it was even happening. I guess I could talk to the neighbors, too.

 

I would just call the PD of whatever city you're talking about (I can't tell from your post if it is Shaker...maybe it was a city on your way to Shaker?) and give them the time and location.

 

 

Request a copy of the "incident report."  Do a public records request if they won't just let you see it.