The police shouldn't be dealing with this reactively... they need to actually patrol the areas of concern and prevent trouble.  If people are filing police reports for getting harassed on a downtown street, in broad daylight, then the police have already failed on a grand scale.

And I'm sure that goes back to budget and having appropriate manpower, which they probably don't, which is why I suggested the DCA.

DCA should at least post someone in front of Tower City, where their own headquarters is. 

Are the DCA ambassadors invested with any arrest authority beyond that of a private citizen?  I don't believe they are. 

 

And nobody is discounting women, RnR.  Let's not make this into a sexist thing.  My wife goes downtown quite often and she has never stated any such fears to me.....  Different people have different perceptions.  But she is from Jersey and does Tae-Bo almost daily.  Lord help the panhandler that tries to get "aggressive" with her :).

It appears they do have that authority:

Peace Officers.

Ambassadors also carry two-way radios to reach one of our Peace Officers -- off-duty Cleveland Police officers who can provide supplementary security. The Peace Officer on duty patrols in a marked Downtown Cleveland Alliance vehicle as a very visible presence to promote safety, and can issue citations or make arrests if necessary. They log about 2000 miles a month! The Peace Officer keeps in direct contact with the Cleveland Police Department at all times.

 

 

I've said this before, but will repeat myself again.  Next time you see that guy coming RnR, ask him for a quarter before he can ask you.  You will catch him off-guard and probably even flatter him for asking.  He won't bother you again.

 

Or just scream at em to get away and blast em with pepper spray.  That works too

^^That is a duly commissioned police officer within his/her own jurisdiction.  Sure they have arrest authority.  I am talking about the yellow shirts who would be the ones standing outside TC as 327 suggested.  BTW, you have arrest authority too as a private citizen, but only for felonies.

Arrest powers probably aren't needed.  The presence of someone visibly standing guard will work wonders.  And when they're ignored, they can at least intervene on behalf of someone getting harassed, and call police or additional security if need be.  But mostly it's about being there.  Someone just needs to be there and be tasked with eliminating harassment.

and there can't be someone standing on every block of downtown at all times.

 

Let's keep this to discussion of actual crime, if you want to talk about the annoyance of panhandling and its perception affects on visitors, please do so in the panhandling thread.

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,14483.270.html

I'll say it:  There is no panhandling problem downtown.  Do people get panhandled?  Yes all the time, but unless you want to round all the panhandlers up and jail them for asking for spare change it will never stop.  I agree that this perceived problem is caused by suburban folks bringing their perception of what their subdivision should be like compared to what downtown Cleveland should be like.  How do I know?  I used to be one of them.  As a suburbanite I too thought that downtown had a panhandling problem but since living in the city for 5 years and being downtown a lot I have become very comfortable with it.  While seeing one panhandler made me nervous before, being exposed to it more often shows it for being what it is, a harmless nuisance (in 99.99% of cases).  When I would come in from the burbs, getting asked for change was downright scary because i wasn't used to it and for many people the only experience they have with panhandling is downtown.  Downtown Cleveland should be compared to other downtowns, not Crocker Park.  Have you ever been to San Francisco?  The place is frightening compared to Cleveland.  There were groups of homeless people smoking pot asking me for money to buy more pot everywhere i went last year.  Cleveland is better than a lot of cities as far as panhandling goes but not as free of panhandling as a cul-de-sac in Westlake.  It never will be and the effort to do so would be for nothing more than to pretend like a problem is being fixed.  I have been panhandled hundreds of times in the past year and have never felt threatened or harassed. 

 

My big point on the suburban perception of crime in Cleveland is that in Cleveland their is a chance of being the victim of a crime.  In many suburbs there is no chance of becoming a victim of a crime.  For many people (including myself back in the day) any chance at all was too much.  The chance in reality of being the victim of a crime in Cleveland is really small, especially downtown during the day, but media coverage of crimes along with the chance of crime happening at all compared to the suburbs leads to an unreasonable fear of crime.

Also a guy with sitting down with a cup with change in it should not be seen as a threat. Maybe a minor annoyance to some, but now a threat. That is all.

Reading today's posts illustrates my previous comments about the difference between an urban and suburban perspective.  I have lived downtown for over 7 years with my wife.  Neither one of us has ever experienced a crime.  We walk everywhere at anytime. 

 

Initially we did have a problem with the panhandling. Two things have happened.  First, it seems to be less prevalent in the last year or so.  Secondly, we actually got to know some of them.  Surprisingly, they are not all bad people and very few (if any) are homeless!! 

 

Do any of the downtown residents know Ronald and Henry?  They used to be in the Warehouse District all the time.  Several of the local businesses provided them with opportunities to earn some extra money.  During one of those "jobs" I was asked to assist and to my surprise, they were OK.  To this day we still communicate in a civil way whenever we see each other.  They say they cannot be in the Warehouse District (my neighborhood) anymore because "THEY" won't let them.  I am not sure what that means, but I am OK with that.

 

I do not give any panhandler money, we give our donations to the Cosgrove Center which provides breakfast and lunch to anyone for free.  It is true that many of panhandlers are not nice people.  But I think in an urban environment, you adjust.

 

I don't know how to bridge that difference in perception between an urban vs. suburban perspective.  I don't mean that someone who lives in the suburbs can not have an urban perspective, but there is a difference when you live downtown everyday.  Downtown is great!

Three of my brothers friends were robbed at gunpoint in florida a couple days ago. Crime happens everywhere. Luckily they are all okay.

I'll say it:  There is no panhandling problem downtown.  Do people get panhandled?  Yes all the time, but unless you want to round all the panhandlers up and jail them for asking for spare change it will never stop.  I agree that this perceived problem is caused by suburban folks bringing their perception of what their subdivision should be like compared to what downtown Cleveland should be like.  How do I know?  I used to be one of them.  As a suburbanite I too thought that downtown had a panhandling problem but since living in the city for 5 years and being downtown a lot I have become very comfortable with it.  While seeing one panhandler made me nervous before, being exposed to it more often shows it for being what it is, a harmless nuisance (in 99.99% of cases).  When I would come in from the burbs, getting asked for change was downright scary because i wasn't used to it and for many people the only experience they have with panhandling is downtown.  Downtown Cleveland should be compared to other downtowns, not Crocker Park.  Have you ever been to San Francisco?  The place is frightening compared to Cleveland.  There were groups of homeless people smoking pot asking me for money to buy more pot everywhere i went last year.  Cleveland is better than a lot of cities as far as panhandling goes but not as free of panhandling as a cul-de-sac in Westlake.  It never will be and the effort to do so would be for nothing more than to pretend like a problem is being fixed.  I have been panhandled hundreds of times in the past year and have never felt threatened or harassed. 

 

Ok, so we'll just tell all the visitors to downtown that it's just their imagination and there is no problem, and that they're oversensitive because they don't live in downtown Cleveland, and they live in the suburbs or another town or another state or wherever else that they don't deal with this. Maybe we can just put up some signs around town that say "There is no panhandling problem, you are oversensitive."

Well, I've lived in Downtown Cleveland for 6 years, and I think it's a problem.  It's not that it "scares" me, I'm just tired of every single person who talks to me on the street wanting my money.  However the conversation starts, it always comes down to them asking for money, and it poisons the public realm in my opinion.  I've become real standoffish because of it.  And I don't expect less of the public realm in Downtown Cleveland than I do in a suburb.

About the trash earlier, you do find a lot of it in the suburbs as well, on the non residential streets. You will see McDonalds bags, cups, napkins, candy wrappers, pretty much everything. The thing is that it doesn't stand out as much cause you just drive past it. When your downtown, you actually walk places, so the trash is more visible. People just dont know how to use a trash can.

Wow this thread has become a mess.  A few thing everyone should keep in mind:

 

*Asking people for money is not illegal and to treat it as such would be an egregious assault of first amendment rights, IMHO, so I would beg people to try to keep the general discussion on the other thread(s) specifically created for this overall topic.

*Because panhandling itself is not illegal, except for cases that rise to really egregious levels, you can't simply have the police or DCA "do something" about the it if your issue is how annoying or even "threatening" it is if if the perceived threat is not actually illegal behavior.

*"Homeless people" does not equal panhandlers.  Overlap, sometimes, but not the same.  It's not a PC thing, it's an accuracy thing, and to use the two interchangeably is incredibly unhelpful if you want to think about solutions.

*For what it's worth, I've never felt threatened downtown in my life as a regular visitor for many years and now as a very occasional visitor, but over that time I have found the panhandling in Cleveland to be far more more persistent and annoying than anything I've ever regularly seen living in Boston or New York or or visiting other cities.  I have no idea why this is and think it would be great to improve, but I doubt it's as easy as just "enforcing" something.

 

And I don't expect less of the public realm in Downtown Cleveland than I do in a suburb.

 

Seriously.  It's kind of depresses me that in many minds, choosing an urban life means you willingly must choose to put up with a bunch of crap that isn't inherently tied to density. I guess there's always some kind of tension between willing assumption of risk and complaining about it, but our cities have no long term hope if living in them =  shutting up and dealing with unnecessary crap.

 

^I think the confusion in this thread starts with the fact that the OP, RnR, was not really stating that she felt threatened by it, but rather that it is an annoyance, and not really the "welcoming commitee" we want on every corner.  Sure, one may feel safe downtown in the presence of panhandlers, but they don't want to be pressured by them.  Some of them are relentless to the point where they will follow close behind, and jsut keep talking.  Now that is really annoying. 

Some of them are relentless to the point where they will follow close behind, and jsut keep talking.  Now that is really annoying. 

 

Exactly.  That's what needs to be stopped.  And there is zero constitutional right to panhandle on private property right in front of Tower City.

The whole entrance to Tower City needs to be cleaned up. Garbage included.

Raising up the dead horse to try to make another small point. The guy was not outside my parking lot yesterday (I half-thought one of you on UO reported him!) but he was there again today. I saw a young man leaving the parking lot the same time I was leaving and I sped up to catch him til we were side by side but a couple of feet apart. I purposely stepped closer to him just as we were exiting the lot right next to the beggar, so it looked like I was with this guy. The guy stared and stared at me but said nothing to us as we crossed the street and went away from the lot.

 

If you think your experience downtown as a male isn't any different than a females, or that the presence of a male doesn't change things, you're wrong.  Saying how often you've never had a problem being bothered by anyone if you are a male just doesn't mean much to me. Now I know we have some UO women who live in urban areas and I don't think they've experienced any problems, but my point is that for a female visitor to downtown Cleveland, this could seem like a scary or dangerous place because of the presence of people like this and their behavior. Honestly, I really would like to fix this. I am very capable of defending myself and have rarely been concerned for my actual safety, but other women don't have background as a security guard, you know? As our bigger projects ramp up and near completion, I would like to know who I could go to in the infrastructure to address these problems. Maybe if I got the CVB to join in complaining with me it would give more muscle?

Sorry had to post it. :) Especially after I bowed out of this discussion after about 3 hours due to exhaustion....

 

LOL

No doubt, women have more to fear than men.  That applies in the Beachwood Mall parking lot as well, though.  And you shouldn't assume that men are not "confronted" by the panhandlers downtown.  We are.  Perhaps we just are not frightened by them, but neither are all women.  And there are certainly men out there who tremble in their boots whenever a typical looking downtown vagrant comes within 5 ft of them.

 

I would suggest two things.  Try an objective analysis of whether your fears are overblown.  Since you are downtown everyday, it might give you peace of mind to take some time and research the crime reports.  Check for frequency of physical violence by the panhandlers against women in downtown Cleveland.  If you are still uncomfortable, I would go to the DCA and respectfully ask what can be done and who you should address the issue to, keeping in mind that the DCA is there for your benefit and owes you no duty.

 

I will offfer this as well.  Provide the name of the garage and what time the guy is there.  I have a feeling it is in the area I frequent in the morning and I don't have a problem telling the guy he is making people feel uncomfortable by stalking the garage and could get in trouble for it.

 

Oh yeah..... 

Thanks. It's not a garage, it's a flat lot. Diagonal from John Qs, on NW corner of w3rd and Superior.  The other panhandlers just annoy me, they don't make me afraid. But the way this fellow glared at me today and the fact that he's watching who is driving what car when they come in, it just smells wrong to me.

I've pretty much stayed out of this discussion because panhandlers don't bother me THAT much.  Are they annoying?  For sure.  But I guess living and working in the City of Cleveland for 9 years has made me impervious to them as far as feeling uncomfortable :).

I will check it out on Thursday.  I think I know the guy you are talking about because he is always around 55 PS.  He can be annoying, if it the same guy, as I've had to tell him no both coming and going.  I mean... if I didn't give you any money 20 minutes ago, then why would I give you some now?

I hear you docbroc, and again, I am largely posting this because of how OTHER visitors experience the city, it's not all about me and my experience. I'm just using my experience as an example, and this is from someone much less sensitive than the occasional or new visitor, since I am here every day.

I hear you docbroc, and again, I am largely posting this because of how OTHER visitors experience the city, it's not all about me and my experience. I'm just using my experience as an example, and this is from someone much less sensitive than the occasional or new visitor, since I am here every day.

 

I know what you mean.  My mom sh!t a brick when I told her we were moving downtown, because her only knowledge of downtown was walking through the flats during the day back in 2002.  Hello desolate besides the panhandlers.  Her opinion has since been corrected :).

there's a different guy that's closer to 55, he generally stands right outside John Qs (he's the 2nd of 3 in my morning gauntlet, though he's sometimes not there in the mornings). He's overly friendly and says hi and have a nice day and stuff but is non-threatening, a little guy.

 

I also saw this other fellow at the front (south entrance) of the lot today who I saw there last week as well, walking towards the mustachiod guy who stands at the entrance. I wonder/worry that they are working together.

A message in the public interest.

 

It looks like maybe a dozen cars have had their side windows shattered between Great Lakes Brewing Company and St. Ignacius.

 

I'm not sure why the street between a prestigious school and the finest microbrewery in the U.S. looks like urban hell. But it does.

^ Are you f'in kidding me? In the middle of the day?

 

hmm, right after school got out.

Might have been the night before....but really, I don't know when it actually happened.

 

I talked to a warehouse guy at GLBC about it.

 

He said he wouldn't park his car on that street anymore.

 

edit: for the record....I DID still park there lol. I was betting on it being an isolated incident...and that the perpetrators were long gone by then. Anyhow....I was running out of time and needed to get to the Wolfhound Stout asap.

And whats the chances those people will want to return anytime soon

Was it on Lorain or Bridge?

W. 26th

Sounds like some youngsters had their first taste of 'liquid courage'

The sad thing is, it only takes one idiot to do this.  I don't know how you can prevent things like this from happening?

There can't be space for much more than a dozen cars to park on that street (if even that many).  Was it pretty much every car's window that was busted?  Usually thieves will only break certain windows (ones where they see something to take), whereas a vandal (someone doing it "for kicks") may break every window.  The latter seems to be much more rare.

To Rockandroller: I feel terrible that you are experiencing harassment by a panhandler in that parking lot (northwest corner of West 3rd and St. Clair). I live right across the street at the Grand Arcade and my wife walks by there all the time.  I would hate to think that she and others are in any danger.  If you can post the time of day he is there, we will talk to the Downtown Cleveland Alliance and alert them to this potential problem. 

^^ Sounds like an idiot kid more than a criminal. A similar situation happened on Chester, ALL the cars parked in front of Statler Arms had their windows smashed after a browns game

I had my window busted out on W26th last year.

There can't be space for much more than a dozen cars to park on that street (if even that many).  Was it pretty much every car's window that was busted?  Usually thieves will only break certain windows (ones where they see something to take), whereas a vandal (someone doing it "for kicks") may break every window.  The latter seems to be much more rare.

 

Yeah, I've had my car windows broken in Akron twice, and nothing was stolen from inside!

 

Again I'm hoping it was an isolated thing. I've been parking on that street for ten years, never had a problem.

 

The city or someone does need to clean up the glass asap.

wow, dang. So not an isolated incident. That stinks.

327, that sucks.  You are an absolute magnet for crime (either as a victim or a witness).  If you ever show at a UO happy hour, I'm staying away.  Now I am no longer picturing you as Capt. Kirk in the Wrath of Kahn, but as Martin Short in Pure Luck.... and I don't want to reprise Danny Glover's role.

 

The city or someone does need to clean up the glass asap.

 

That might take a bit of complaining.  There was a bad accident at Nottingham and St. Clair about a month ago and there is still glass and car parts littering the SE corner.

You missed the happy hour I went to.  I tried to sing a Survivor song at karaoke.  There's a story in my eyes... turn the pages of desiiiiiiiire...

W26th and w28th have been a problem for a looong time. I had my car broken into 4 years ago while parked on 28th. In hindsight the curb was lined with glass the whole length of the block and I was clearly not the first car broken into. Even now when I drive by that stretch right behind the football field, it still looks the same; broken automobile safety glass all over the place and evidence of cars being scavenged. I will admit it soured me to the whole west 25th neighborhood for a while, but clearly something needs to be done if it's STILL a problem.

 

The isolated street is W. 28th. That has Ignatius's football field on one side and the other side is the rear of Dave's Mkt and the Great Lakes production facility. It's been known for a long time that this is not a great place to park, at night anyway. If this happened in broad daylight then the perpetrators have gotten ballsier. I think W. 26th might have erroneously been mentioned.

Anyway, the Market District wants a SID by 2012 which would help fund safety patrols.

 

EDIT: I;m just talking about the small stretch of W. 28th that I alluded to. The stretch of W. 28th with Light Bistro, a few B-n-B's and some of OC's best housing is not isolated at all. I would think this doesn't occur over there.

I know if that was my nabe and the City was slow in reacting, I would get out there with a broom and dust pan getting up that glass.  I sure would complain, but I wouldn't just leave it sitting there on the street.