^ can't agree more! As the west side continues to redevelop, they need to crack down hard on Cudell. I fully understand that poverty and crime are a part of every city, but Cudell should not be a place for these thugs. Time for wholesale clearance. Crack down on crime and property upkeep and watch the thug element magically disappear. Cudell is situated to be the next in line to start redevlpment after DS starts to fill up.

The sad part of Cudell is its pretty much an island between DS and Lakewood and even the Western edge of Cleveland where there are alot of good people.  Someone needs to teach those punks a lesson.  Regardless of time, its unacceptable.  I would have went down swinging probably.

^ can't agree more! As the west side continues to redevelop, they need to crack down hard on Cudell. I fully understand that poverty and crime are a part of every city, but Cudell should not be a place for these thugs. Time for wholesale clearance. Crack down on crime and property upkeep and watch the thug element magically disappear. Cudell is situated to be the next in line to start redevlpment after DS starts to fill up.

 

That's what angers me the most--this is an area that 10-15 years ago wasn't so bad, but the city is letting it go.  There are small pockets of good happening, so there is plenty of reason to not let these thugs take over Detroit Ave.   

2nd District with Commander Sulzer is a top notch group.  I called in a drug deal I saw on Detroit earlier this summer in middle of the day.  Commander Sulzer emailed me back 2 days later, said they set up surveillance based on my report & arrested four people for drug trafficking in that area.  Can't ask for much more than that from your local police

Adios Castro. I hope it hurt a lot.

^ can't agree more! As the west side continues to redevelop, they need to crack down hard on Cudell. I fully understand that poverty and crime are a part of every city, but Cudell should not be a place for these thugs. Time for wholesale clearance. Crack down on crime and property upkeep and watch the thug element magically disappear. Cudell is situated to be the next in line to start redevlpment after DS starts to fill up.

 

That's what angers me the most--this is an area that 10-15 years ago wasn't so bad, but the city is letting it go.  There are small pockets of good happening, so there is plenty of reason to not let these thugs take over Detroit Ave.   

 

I worked on W. 110th between Western and Madison/Berea for a few years mid decade.  We started at 6am and you could see stuff was already starting to happen along Western during the wee hours.  Still, the more visible areas were just fine.

I feel really bad for the victim and there is no excuse for that.  Cudell is a giant cespool, and there needs to be more leadership and law enforcement.  That being said, i live about a mile from there and you have to put yourself in good situations.  Thats not the optimal place you want to be at 12 AM.  Im glad he wasnt killed.

 

From the news reports, the bar also looks like an old speakeasy design-wise, with it being very difficult to see in.  I can certainly understand why, and they do have cameras outside, but clearly it's not enough.  (We very intentionally have a large picture window and good visibility on our parking lot as well.)

 

They probably need some outside security.  This is not the best of neighborhoods and like it or not, their clientele are stereotyped as easy victims.

I feel really bad for the victim and there is no excuse for that.  Cudell is a giant cespool, and there needs to be more leadership and law enforcement.  That being said, i live about a mile from there and you have to put yourself in good situations.  Thats not the optimal place you want to be at 12 AM.  Im glad he wasnt killed.

 

From the news reports, the bar also looks like an old speakeasy design-wise, with it being very difficult to see in.  I can certainly understand why, and they do have cameras outside, but clearly it's not enough.  (We very intentionally have a large picture window and good visibility on our parking lot as well.)

 

They probably need some outside security.  This is not the best of neighborhoods and like it or not, their clientele are stereotyped as easy victims.

 

these punks need to be sabotaged.  Next time there is a late night mob loitering, have bait much like Mr. Fox and when he is approached have a nice infantry of cops/residents come out from the shadows.

I feel really bad for the victim and there is no excuse for that.  Cudell is a giant cespool, and there needs to be more leadership and law enforcement.  That being said, i live about a mile from there and you have to put yourself in good situations.  Thats not the optimal place you want to be at 12 AM.  Im glad he wasnt killed.

 

From the news reports, the bar also looks like an old speakeasy design-wise, with it being very difficult to see in.  I can certainly understand why, and they do have cameras outside, but clearly it's not enough.  (We very intentionally have a large picture window and good visibility on our parking lot as well.)

 

They probably need some outside security.  This is not the best of neighborhoods and like it or not, their clientele are stereotyped as easy victims.

 

these punks need to be sabotaged.  Next time there is a late night mob loitering, have bait much like Mr. Fox and when he is approached have a nice infantry of cops/residents come out from the shadows.

 

I advocated something like this for the UC Rapid Station in my "Observer" column at CWRU way back in the last century, so of course I love it.  Indeed this would happen, post haste, in Little Italy which is why they avoid it despite proximity to plenty of them.

 

Of course, someone would probably claim entrapment and I doubt Jackson or McGrath has the testicular fortitude to try it.

^its like that tv show where they put a car out with the doors unlocked and keys inside and when someone steals it the cops can manually lock the doors and stop the vehicle.

Can someone link the facebook page showing the 3 young men, caught by the bar video?  The picture of the one is so clear, the neighborhood has to be able to recognize him.  honestly, if the police can't find this kid, he has to live close by...

Adios Castro. I hope it hurt a lot.

 

Ironic that he couldn't handle the 'captivity'

I feel really bad for the victim and there is no excuse for that.  Cudell is a giant cespool, and there needs to be more leadership and law enforcement.  That being said, i live about a mile from there and you have to put yourself in good situations.  Thats not the optimal place you want to be at 12 AM.  Im glad he wasnt killed.

 

From the news reports, the bar also looks like an old speakeasy design-wise, with it being very difficult to see in.  I can certainly understand why, and they do have cameras outside, but clearly it's not enough.  (We very intentionally have a large picture window and good visibility on our parking lot as well.)

 

They probably need some outside security.  This is not the best of neighborhoods and like it or not, their clientele are stereotyped as easy victims.

 

these punks need to be sabotaged.  Next time there is a late night mob loitering, have bait much like Mr. Fox and when he is approached have a nice infantry of cops/residents come out from the shadows.

 

I advocated something like this for the UC Rapid Station in my "Observer" column at CWRU way back in the last century, so of course I love it.  Indeed this would happen, post haste, in Little Italy which is why they avoid it despite proximity to plenty of them.

 

Of course, someone would probably claim entrapment and I doubt Jackson or McGrath has the testicular fortitude to try it.

 

The police were called a few times BEFORE this happened as the mob was wandering the street, and yet it still happened.

 

I'm all for this sort of task-force based solutions to crime, but let's start with the basics!

I feel really bad for the victim and there is no excuse for that.  Cudell is a giant cespool, and there needs to be more leadership and law enforcement.  That being said, i live about a mile from there and you have to put yourself in good situations.  Thats not the optimal place you want to be at 12 AM.  Im glad he wasnt killed.

 

From the news reports, the bar also looks like an old speakeasy design-wise, with it being very difficult to see in.  I can certainly understand why, and they do have cameras outside, but clearly it's not enough.  (We very intentionally have a large picture window and good visibility on our parking lot as well.)

 

They probably need some outside security.  This is not the best of neighborhoods and like it or not, their clientele are stereotyped as easy victims.

 

these punks need to be sabotaged.  Next time there is a late night mob loitering, have bait much like Mr. Fox and when he is approached have a nice infantry of cops/residents come out from the shadows.

 

I advocated something like this for the UC Rapid Station in my "Observer" column at CWRU way back in the last century, so of course I love it.  Indeed this would happen, post haste, in Little Italy which is why they avoid it despite proximity to plenty of them.

 

Of course, someone would probably claim entrapment and I doubt Jackson or McGrath has the testicular fortitude to try it.

 

The police were called a few times BEFORE this happened as the mob was wandering the street, and yet it still happened.

 

I'm all for this sort of task-force based solutions to crime, but let's start with the basics!

 

Unless they park a cruiser in front of the place, the parasites will return five minutes after they leave, even more riled up than before. 

 

As  I said, even a councilman couldn’t get a thugpack rousted from the vicinity of his house.  Unless laws are actually being broken and people get arrested, it’s futile.

 

My point was a well planned and executed boobie trap that gets them all busted.  They like to intimidate, but greater numbers will make them quiver.  Remember, they are uneducated cowards who need to travel in packs because alone they are nothing.  When outnumbered, they will cowar. 

 

The Cleveland Police is taking a beating for not showing up during the firs three calls.  I respect and appreciate everything they do, but this is an ongoing issue.  In our hood, we use to have to over exaggerate when something was happening to get them to come.  Have suspicious people outside our front doors or loitering on our property would not get the cops attention, we would have to say we feel very unsafe or threatened.  Heck one time i called and asked to come because there were kids up to no good at my neighbors.  THey didnt come, finally i called back while the kids were in the process of breaking in and then they come.  Its all reactive and not proactive

Club patrons are not happy about the manner in which police conducted themselves. Some even feel that the City and police need to be shamed into addressing this issue more seriously. That's all I can say right now.

The City should just import the guys (I mean girls) who make their presence felt at about 1:00 of this video.....

 

My point was a well planned and executed boobie trap that gets them all busted.  They like to intimidate, but greater numbers will make them quiver.  Remember, they are uneducated cowards who need to travel in packs because alone they are nothing.  When outnumbered, they will cowar. 

 

The Cleveland Police is taking a beating for not showing up during the firs three calls.  I respect and appreciate everything they do, but this is an ongoing issue.  In our hood, we use to have to over exaggerate when something was happening to get them to come.  Have suspicious people outside our front doors or loitering on our property would not get the cops attention, we would have to say we feel very unsafe or threatened.  Heck one time i called and asked to come because there were kids up to no good at my neighbors.  THey didnt come, finally i called back while the kids were in the process of breaking in and then they come.  Its all reactive and not proactive

 

 

Kind of like the apocryphal story about the police not considering a break-in an emergency until the homeowner told them they could take their time because they already shot him.  :evil:

 

Still, if CPD shows up, what do they do if the thugpack isn't breaking any actual laws (yet)?  You'd be surprised at how many of these little turds have an auntie or cousin with pull at City Hall or an influential church.  If the cops overstep, they get their balls rapped.  The brass does not have their backs.

 

If it was my bar, I'd bump drink prices up a bit and hire off duty cops to work security at night.  Not only do a lot of problems go away, but the on duty cops are more likely to roll if they get a call.  It's a cynical thing to say, but that doesn't make it any less true.

If the cops overstep, they get their balls rapped.  The brass does not have their backs.

 

This is not true.  Cops are given plenty of leeway both by the applicable law and their superiors.  Certainly, in a department the size of Cleveland's, you are going to have some disciplinary issues, but the recent meme (all from the justice center chase) about the command staff not having the patrolmen's backs is simply not true.  You can look at a few isolated incidents and come to that conclusion, or you could view it from the resolution of thousands of potential disciplinary actions which never get reported by the media or circulated on FB.  It is a para-military organization and members are always going to face discipline.  But they are also given every benefit of the doubt by the investigators.

 

If the cops overstep, they get their balls rapped.  The brass does not have their backs.

 

This is not true.  Cops are given plenty of leeway both by the applicable law and their superiors.  Certainly, in a department the size of Cleveland's, you are going to have some disciplinary issues, but the recent meme (all from the justice center chase) about the command staff not having the patrolmen's backs is simply not true.  You can look at a few isolated incidents and come to that conclusion, or you could view it from the resolution of thousands of potential disciplinary actions which never get reported by the media or circulated on FB.  It is a para-military organization and members are always going to face discipline.  But they are also given every benefit of the doubt by the investigators.

 

 

True most places, including pretty much any suburb in the area.

 

Not true in select big cities where the police chief is a political appointee and a politician in general.  Cleveland is one of them (as is Chicago) Why do you think the CPPA is supporting Ken Lanci?  The truth is, Russ Papalardo would be more welcome in the Zone Car than Michael McGrath.

 

While lower level management has the cops’ back, the higher things go up the ladder the less likely the brass sides with the badge over the “community leader”.

 

Still, if CPD shows up, what do they do if the thugpack isn't breaking any actual laws (yet)? 

 

ask to see some ID, who is under 18?  Threaten to write some tickets for curfew violation... tell em to clear out, no loitering....  all laws already on the books, not sure why they aren't used more often (warehouse district :-/)

 

^Show your papers?  You think these kids have IDs.  I doubt it.  Regardless, the police have to have reasonable suspicion you are engaged in illegal activity to require you to show your ID.  Not saying there wasn't reasonable suspicion here or that i wouldn't want the cops to do something proactive.  It's a difficult situation given that freedoms apply to all, regardless of how scary you look.

 

True most places, including pretty much any suburb in the area.

 

Not true in select big cities where the police chief is a political appointee and a politician in general.  Cleveland is one of them (as is Chicago) Why do you think the CPPA is supporting Ken Lanci?  The truth is, Russ Papalardo would be more welcome in the Zone Car than Michael McGrath.

 

While lower level management has the cops’ back, the higher things go up the ladder the less likely the brass sides with the badge over the “community leader”.

 

Well, I'm glad that you agree that the Chief should not be a political appointee who serves at the will of the Mayor and, obviously then, agreed with the Fire Union's efforts to derail those same changes for appointing a Fire Chief (which is still civil service tested and may not be selected from outside the bargaining unit) :)

 

But you are overlooking the contraints the local and state civil service laws factor into disciplinary measures.  There are serious limitations on the discretion to discipline which do not apply to non-civil servants like you and me.  Also, it is not the McGrath who controls the discipline, but the Director of Public Safety, Martin Flask.

 

Regardless, I think you are taking one or two highly publicized (by Triv and Frantz at least) cases and overgeneralizing the City's attitudes towards its police.  Like I said, it is a para-military organization and there will be discipline on a regular basis.  But, overall, the discipline issued by the City pales in comparison to that of some of the stricter Chiefs in the suburbs where a cop can get terminated for things that the City barely notices.

Club patrons are not happy about the manner in which police conducted themselves. Some even feel that the City and police need to be shamed into addressing this issue more seriously. That's all I can say right now.

 

And why has cleve.com not covered this?

^Show your papers?  You think these kids have IDs.  I doubt it.  Regardless, the police have to have reasonable suspicion you are engaged in illegal activity to require you to show your ID. 

 

A group of a dozen or more teens gathered outside a bar around midnight with their faces covered up seems like reasonable suspicion.  All the cops would have had to do is send a car, flash his lights & siren & the teens would have scattered.

Club patrons are not happy about the manner in which police conducted themselves. Some even feel that the City and police need to be shamed into addressing this issue more seriously. That's all I can say right now.

 

And why has cleve.com not covered this?

 

I cannot say. But here's Scene on the scene:

 

http://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2013/09/03/this-is-jared-fox-hes-the-victim-of-a-cleveland-hate-crime

^Show your papers?  You think these kids have IDs.  I doubt it.  Regardless, the police have to have reasonable suspicion you are engaged in illegal activity to require you to show your ID.  Not saying there wasn't reasonable suspicion here or that i wouldn't want the cops to do something proactive.  It's a difficult situation given that freedoms apply to all, regardless of how scary you look.

 

Curfew violation wouldn't count?  I seem to remember being pulled over as a teen quite regularly in the suburbs for what could only have been curfew checks.

time to organize local guardian angels to periodically patrol the streets?

^Show your papers?  You think these kids have IDs.  I doubt it.  Regardless, the police have to have reasonable suspicion you are engaged in illegal activity to require you to show your ID.  Not saying there wasn't reasonable suspicion here or that i wouldn't want the cops to do something proactive.  It's a difficult situation given that freedoms apply to all, regardless of how scary you look.

 

True most places, including pretty much any suburb in the area.

 

Not true in select big cities where the police chief is a political appointee and a politician in general.  Cleveland is one of them (as is Chicago) Why do you think the CPPA is supporting Ken Lanci?  The truth is, Russ Papalardo would be more welcome in the Zone Car than Michael McGrath.

 

While lower level management has the cops’ back, the higher things go up the ladder the less likely the brass sides with the badge over the “community leader”.

 

Well, I'm glad that you agree that the Chief should not be a political appointee who serves at the will of the Mayor and, obviously then, agreed with the Fire Union's efforts to derail those same changes for appointing a Fire Chief (which is still civil service tested and may not be selected from outside the bargaining unit) :)

 

But you are overlooking the contraints the local and state civil service laws factor into disciplinary measures.  There are serious limitations on the discretion to discipline which do not apply to non-civil servants like you and me.  Also, it is not the McGrath who controls the discipline, but the Director of Public Safety, Martin Flask.

 

Regardless, I think you are taking one or two highly publicized (by Triv and Frantz at least) cases and overgeneralizing the City's attitudes towards its police.  Like I said, it is a para-military organization and there will be discipline on a regular basis.  But, overall, the discipline issued by the City pales in comparison to that of some of the stricter Chiefs in the suburbs where a cop can get terminated for things that the City barely notices.

 

Actually. I am going by what officers tell me.  Whether it's McGrath or Flask that controls discipline, the higher up officers take the lead....and yes, if a councilman makes enough noise about a specific kid getting "harrassed" by the cops, there's problems. 

^Show your papers?  You think these kids have IDs.  I doubt it.  Regardless, the police have to have reasonable suspicion you are engaged in illegal activity to require you to show your ID. 

 

A group of a dozen or more teens gathered outside a bar around midnight with their faces covered up seems like reasonable suspicion.  All the cops would have had to do is send a car, flash his lights & siren & the teens would have scattered.

 

And recongregated five minutes later.

 

A permanent presence is needed. 

 

I've been doing bar security (albeit part time) for eleven years.  A gay bar in this particular neighborhood is a little different from a suburban sports bar, ironically it is more like a strip club.

 

You want the "no visibility from the outside" design for rather obvious reasons.  However, this greatly impedes your ability to control your outside spaces.  Especially when you do not own them.

 

A truly safe design would include an adjoining parking lot which is the private property of the building owner.  The lot is well lit and there is a building entrance immediately adjacent to the lot.  You have security, ideally an off duty cop.  If there is anything whatsoever to the stereotypes, disturbances inside the bar are not that big of an issue.  He'll be noting when someone pulls into the lot and approaches the door, especially by themselves.  He'll at least peek outside when someone is leaving.

 

As for the Scene article, they refused to show the pictures of the suspects and did not even mention that race may be a factor.  As bad as the PeeDee in their own way.

 

^I've seen this outrage about not showing the pictures of black suspects alot recently.  Other than for pure chest-pounding and subjective vindication purposes, what would be the reason to point out their race?  Is there anything to indicate that race (not sexual orientation) was the slightest motivating factor?  (I haven't read all that much about it)

 

Actually. I am going by what officers tell me. 

 

I've easily, without the slightest exaggeration, talked to 100x more CPPA and FOP members from the CPD about this than you have.  Guaranteed.  If your sole point is that the support is stronger amongst the LT's and Captains, than it is from the Chief and AC's, well... you would be hard pressed to find a department not like that.

 

Cleveland has a very strong civil service system.  Although the right to do so is reserved by charter, the City has not diverted all that much from state law.  The protections from discipline, suspension, removal, layoff, etc. and the rights of promotion, step-downs, and seniority are all much stronger than they are in most of the surrounding communities, which takes away alot of the leverage Flask/McGrath have when it comes to discipline.  The cops know this.

 

^Show your papers?  You think these kids have IDs.  I doubt it.  Regardless, the police have to have reasonable suspicion you are engaged in illegal activity to require you to show your ID.  Not saying there wasn't reasonable suspicion here or that i wouldn't want the cops to do something proactive.  It's a difficult situation given that freedoms apply to all, regardless of how scary you look.

 

Curfew violation wouldn't count?  I seem to remember being pulled over as a teen quite regularly in the suburbs for what could only have been curfew checks.

 

Absolutely.  But there is a difference between the cops asking for ID from an individual they 'reasonably suspect' is actually breaking curfew and the cops lining up a bunch of young looking people who might be violating curfew and asking them to show papers.  "Possibly" does not equal "reasonable suspicion."  In this particular instance, the more I read about it, the kids were probably a bit younger than I originally suspected and, as gottaplan pointed out, demonstrated other actions/behavoirs which called for some police intervention.

 

I am all for strict curfew enforcement.  I actually prefer citations which fine the parents as well as the kids.  They are trying that in the Atlanta area now.  But it can be a tricky game, particularly when you have a staggered curfew law like Cleveland's which, I believe, calls for the younger teens to be off the street by 9:30pm, middle teens to be home by 11pm and older teens to not be out past midnight.

time to organize local guardian angels to periodically patrol the streets?

 

No thanks.  End up with some kind of Zimmerman situation where these "neighborhood watch" individuals with no authority took the law in to their own hands

time to organize local guardian angels to periodically patrol the streets?

 

No thanks.  End up with some kind of Zimmerman situation where these "neighborhood watch" individuals with no authority took the law in to their own hands

 

I wouldn't insult the Guardian Angels by comparing them to a wanna-be cop idiot looking to make a name for himself. .  They have a long history of this service, provide training, action plans, etc.  Just their presence could have deterred something like this.

Agreed on their presence being beneficial.  Just take a look at the victim.  No offense intended to him, but these punks picked an easy target, at least from a stereotypical perspective.... smal, glasses, a little effeminate, etc.

time to organize local guardian angels to periodically patrol the streets?

 

No thanks.  End up with some kind of Zimmerman situation where these "neighborhood watch" individuals with no authority took the law in to their own hands

 

I wouldn't insult the Guardian Angels by comparing them to a wanna-be cop idiot looking to make a name for himself. .  They have a long history of this service, provide training, action plans, etc.  Just their presence could have deterred something like this.

 

no insult intended.  I am not familiar with them at all here in Cleveland despite living & working in the city the last 6+ years.  Never even heard of them till the girls were rescued from Castro's captivity

^I've seen this outrage about not showing the pictures of black suspects alot recently.  Other than for pure chest-pounding and subjective vindication purposes, what would be the reason to point out their race? 

 

Do you want them caught, or do you not want them caught? 

 

Also, if we are going to speak of "hate crimes", don't their motivations come into play? 

 

The biggest threat to white gay men in this city isn't drunken BW frat boys.  It's black "gangstas" and "wannabes".  They are contemptuous of gay men, in large part because they see them as passive and pacifistic.

 

Do you want them caught, or do you not want them caught? 

 

Of course I do.  But I see this outrage no matter whether the suspects are already in custody or not (i.e. "why aren't they showing the mugshots?!?!").  For the purpose of apprehending any suspects still at large, I fully support showing their pictures.  For the purpose of showing their pictures to simply vindicate you that this is yet another crime perpetuated by black youths, I don't see the need.

 

Also, if we are going to speak of "hate crimes", don't their motivations come into play? 

 

Absolutely.  Which brings me back to my original question of whether there is any indication that the race of the victim (not the perps) played any role in the attack.  If it did, then the hate crime would be for both racial and sexual orientation targeting.  But if, as it appeared to me at first glance, these kids were simply looking to do some good ole' fashion gay bashing, then race has nothing to do with it.  And I don't know why white gay men are at any more risk than black gay men.  If anything, I would argue that black gay men might be more at risk of being assaulted due to their sexual orientation than their white counterparts.

image of suspects from the bar security cam, pulled off facebook.  Not sure why the local media isn't sharing this

 

https://sphotos-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1174661_10200694769433395_171151619_n.jpg

^Probably something to do with the fact that they appear to be minors

natininja posted this in the gay rights thread. Includes more info about the crime and what sounds like an underwhelming police reaction:

 

Did a street gang try to extort "protection money" at some point?

 

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/oh_cuyahoga/boy-13-arrested-in-recent-cocktails-lounge-hate-crime-attack-on-clevelands-west-side

I'm glad they are rightfully labeling it a 'hate crime'.  I wonder, however, what law they are using.  Ohio's hate crime laws are very vague and particularly non-specific when it comes to sexual orientation.

 

I'm also not surprised that these early teen "thugs" ran away like a bunch of girls when the patrons started after them.  Like I always say, they act a lot tougher than they are.

 

BTW, "Cocktails Lounge"?  :)

I'm glad they are rightfully labeling it a 'hate crime'.  I wonder, however, what law they are using.  Ohio's hate crime laws are very vague and particularly non-specific when it comes to sexual orientation.

 

I'm also not surprised that these early teen "thugs" ran away like a bunch of girls when the patrons started after them.  Like I always say, they act a lot tougher than they are.

 

BTW, "Cocktails Lounge"?  :)

 

As if a name like that is uncommon lol.  There's also a rainbow sign and "Pride" by the door, at least on Google street view.  They're not shy about their business model.

 

No one ever said the thugpacks are  tough.  They're punks.  They are persistent though, they went back and got "weapons".  Sort of.

 

To me, this is a pretty good example of why "hate crime" laws are dumb.  Do they hate the place because it's predominantly gay?  Predominantly white?  Both?  Or just beacuse it's on their "turf"?  Nevertheless, a crime is a crime is a crime. 

Sorry to disappoint E Rocc, but clearly they were targeting the place because it was a gay bar based on the link you provided.  There is nothing to indicate that race was a motivating factor, unless you are one of the people who believe that any crime between the races is motivated by race (that would include white-on-black crime as well).  When you consider the establishment and what these kids were yelling, it is a clear cut case of attempted intimidation and assault based on sexual orientation.

Sorry to disappoint E Rocc, but clearly they were targeting the place because it was a gay bar based on the link you provided.  There is nothing to indicate that race was a motivating factor, unless you are one of the people who believe that any crime between the races is motivated by race (that would include white-on-black crime as well).  When you consider the establishment and what these kids were yelling, it is a clear cut case of attempted intimidation and assault based on sexual orientation.

 

Because of the word they yelled?  You realize that they would have yelled the exact same word if it was a predominantly white semi-upscale bar with no idea as to the orientation of the patrons, right?  They consider it about the worst insult they know.

 

We'll never know for sure, because the perp that got arrested was thirteen and all records will be sealed.  But the more that comes out on this story, the more this sounds like gang intimidation of an "unwelcome" neighbor.    The age of the suspect is part of the reason.  They send initiates and wannabes out to do stuff like this.  They get tested, and if they get busted …they are juveniles.

 

I certainly don’t fault the gay community for trying to make anti-hate capital out of this situation, and in a way it’s good that they are because it shines light on a situation that otherwise wouldn’t have a lot of attention.  And kudos to the patrons for going after the thugpack junior grade, this breaks a stereotype that is part of the primary reason that this subculture holds them in contempt.

 

But the hate in a case like this is a “hate” that one group has for the world at large, not hate that the world at large has for one group.

 

They consider it about the worst insult they know.

 

You knew these kids?

 

I don't know which insults "they" consider to be worse than others, but I think a group of kids standing outside a bar which makes no effort to conceal the fact that it is a gay bar who are calling the patrons "f#ggots" is a fairly open and shut case. 

 

We'll never know for sure, because the perp that got arrested was thirteen and all records will be sealed.  But the more that comes out on this story, the more this sounds like gang intimidation of an "unwelcome" neighbor.    The age of the suspect is part of the reason.  They send initiates and wannabes out to do stuff like this.  They get tested, and if they get busted they are juveniles.

 

There is 'jumping to conclusions' and then there is this.  First of all, Cleveland does not have much of a gang problem.  It has some gangs, but it is nowhere near what you see in other cities.  For the gangs that do exist, they don't have 'turf' like you would see in other parts.  And they certainly are not organized to the point of using the younger members as sacrificial lambs in an attempt to drive out a bar they do not want in their 'hood.  To the extent there is a gang running this neighborhood, they would be utterly stupid to drive away a non-threatening and potentially highly profitable customer base.

They consider it about the worst insult they know.

 

You knew these kids?

 

I don't know which insults "they" consider to be worse than others, but I think a group of kids standing outside a bar which makes no effort to conceal the fact that it is a gay bar who are calling the patrons "f#ggots" is a fairly open and shut case. 

 

We'll never know for sure, because the perp that got arrested was thirteen and all records will be sealed.  But the more that comes out on this story, the more this sounds like gang intimidation of an "unwelcome" neighbor.    The age of the suspect is part of the reason.  They send initiates and wannabes out to do stuff like this.  They get tested, and if they get busted …they are juveniles.

 

There is 'jumping to conclusions' and then there is this.  First of all, Cleveland does not have much of a gang problem.  It has some gangs, but it is nowhere near what you see in other cities.  For the gangs that do exist, they don't have 'turf' like you would see in other parts.  And they certainly are not organized to the point of using the younger members as sacrificial lambs in an attempt to drive out a bar they do not want in their 'hood.  To the extent there is a gang running this neighborhood, they would be utterly stupid to drive away a non-threatening and potentially highly profitable customer base.

Things change.  Ever hear of the "Goonies"?  They had as much to do with the decline of Slavic Village as the foreclosure crisis.  They were young, terribly organized, and sang when busted.  But even in their illiterate unsophistication, they hit upon the idea of the "protection racket".  What they lacked in ability they made up for in viciousness.

 

That's what this sounds like from the outside. 

 

That word is indeed "fighting words".  It's meant to imply the insultee won't stand up for them self more than anything having to do with personal preferences.  Of course in this case it's also meant to strike home. 

Things change.  Ever hear of the "Goonies"?  They had as much to do with the decline of Slavic Village as the foreclosure crisis.  They were young, terribly organized, and sang when busted.  But even in their illiterate unsophistication, they hit upon the idea of the "protection racket".  What they lacked in ability they made up for in viciousness.

 

I recall some coverage of the their several month long terror campaign in the neighborhood where Central and Slavic Village come together.  I had a friend living over at the Hyacinth lofts at the time this was either going down or the case was being processed through the court system, or both.... so I took some interest in it.  I remember them as a group of upper teens mostly preying on old women and young kids.  There was also some acts of vandalism against neighbors who reported them to the police.  I don't recall ever hearing about anything close to a 'protection racket.'  Which businesses, specifically by name, were 'forced' to pay for this 'protection'?  Or are you just referring to young kids being forced to give up their lunch money to avoid getting beaten up?  When I think of a 'protection racket' I think of the model used by the mafia

Things change.  Ever hear of the "Goonies"?  They had as much to do with the decline of Slavic Village as the foreclosure crisis.  They were young, terribly organized, and sang when busted.  But even in their illiterate unsophistication, they hit upon the idea of the "protection racket".  What they lacked in ability they made up for in viciousness.

 

I recall some coverage of the their several month long terror campaign in the neighborhood where Central and Slavic Village come together.  I had a friend living over at the Hyacinth lofts at the time this was either going down or the case was being processed through the court system, or both.... so I took some interest in it.  I remember them as a group of upper teens mostly preying on old women and young kids.  There was also some acts of vandalism against neighbors who reported them to the police.  I don't recall ever hearing about anything close to a 'protection racket.'  Which businesses, specifically by name, were 'forced' to pay for this 'protection'?  Or are you just referring to young kids being forced to give up their lunch money to avoid getting beaten up?  When I think of a 'protection racket' I think of the model used by the mafia

That's what this sounds like it could be.  Extortion of the bar.

 

No other reason for something like this to spring out of the blue.

Has the bar owner, who has been very vocal about this incident, given even the slightest hint that this might be extortion?  I don't think so.  Let's not make this into something more than it really is.  Outrageous rumors like that get started in internet forums just like these.  People read these pure speculations, and regardless of there being nothing to substantiate the claims, they get treated as fact a week or two later when the reader can't remember if he/she heard it on the TV news, read it in the paper, or some other arguably credible source. 

 

In fact, that is probably what happened with the Goonies and this protection racket claim.  Did you not have any of the specifics on that?

Things change.  Ever hear of the "Goonies"?  They had as much to do with the decline of Slavic Village as the foreclosure crisis.  They were young, terribly organized, and sang when busted.  But even in their illiterate unsophistication, they hit upon the idea of the "protection racket".  What they lacked in ability they made up for in viciousness.

 

I recall some coverage of the their several month long terror campaign in the neighborhood where Central and Slavic Village come together.  I had a friend living over at the Hyacinth lofts at the time this was either going down or the case was being processed through the court system, or both.... so I took some interest in it.  I remember them as a group of upper teens mostly preying on old women and young kids.  There was also some acts of vandalism against neighbors who reported them to the police.  I don't recall ever hearing about anything close to a 'protection racket.'  Which businesses, specifically by name, were 'forced' to pay for this 'protection'?  Or are you just referring to young kids being forced to give up their lunch money to avoid getting beaten up?  When I think of a 'protection racket' I think of the model used by the mafia

That's what this sounds like it could be.  Extortion of the bar.

 

No other reason for something like this to spring out of the blue.

 

Are you kidding? 

 

This is nothing but a bunch of punk, ghetto kids with no adults in their lives proving their "manhood" by beating up someone that is not accepted in "their community".