E Rocc, how many times did patrons at Ferris Steakhouse just down the road get called "faggots" because they were white?  As you have mentioned, Cocktails and it's patrons are rightfully proud of who they are, and they were targeted because of that. It's as simple as that -- and Occam's razor. And a hate crime to the bone.

As a resident of the area, it's a shame how unsafe the area has become. Last year there were incidents of groups of youth on bikes that attacked 3 different pedestrians in different spots on Detroit and Clifton near West Blvd in the early evening hours. Just look at the crime stats for this section of Detroit Avenue. Scary.

 

It's the crimes against random pedestrians that scare me the most. You can't have a successful neighborhood when residents have to live in fear of being attacked when they go for a walk or patronize a local business.

 

It's a shame because this neighborhood has great infrastructure. It's one of the few residential neighborhoods on the red line that has a mix of high quality single family homes and density.

 

But until this neighborhood becomes safe again, there won't be any new developments ... especially when sections of Detroit a mile in either direction are much safer and subsequently have better amenities.

Your mentioning of neighborhood crime made me curious to check out how my neighborhood - old brooklyn was doing. For me, It felt quieter this summer compared to past summers (09-12).

 

The crime stats of the past 90 days backed my assumption: that there would be a lot more crime west, than east, of Broadview.  It's quite a stark difference.

 

http://i.imgur.com/UyrNx5t.jpg

 

(you can't see broadview on the map, because it is covered by the markers... it is street running north/south, just to the east of the brooklyn heights cemetery.

 

Even growing up and visiting my friends who lived off Pearl and state as an adolescent, I could tell that part of OB (west of Broadview) was a lot less stable and felt less safe than the part to the east of broadview (where I lived growing up and moved back 4 years ago) simple things like hearing fighting/screaming in houses as while you ride your bike past, teens starting fights with you without any provocation, find broken bottles in the street. 

 

 

Wow.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/09/city_sends_bar_involved_in_rec.html#incart_river

 

Wow.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/09/city_sends_bar_involved_in_rec.html#incart_river

 

 

How utterly asinine.

Westbrook finally said something.

 

I'm wondering if Zone is going to take a different tact when he inherits that section of Detroit?

 

 

Agreed the letter wasn't the best way to handle the situation, but it appears (from the article) that Martin Flask from DPS acknowledged the fact and is working to correct and handle appropriately

"(I)t is an early warning letter that the Department of Public Safety sends to property owners to help prevent a location from becoming a 'nuisance property'" Flask said. "224 such letters have already been sent to various property owners this year."

Westbrook finally said something.

 

I'm wondering if Zone is going to take a different tact when he inherits that section of Detroit?

 

 

 

While i do believe Zone will continue the majority of his efforts in the Gordon Square area, i think he will do a much better job than Westbrook in Cudell. Not quite sure what the solution is, but having dealt with both of them I think Zone takes these incidents more personally and will work tirelessly to try and correct

Wow.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/09/city_sends_bar_involved_in_rec.html#incart_river

 

 

How utterly asinine.

 

Agreed.  This is where government fails us.  I'm sure these are automatically generated, but there has to be someone with a brain putting a stamp on the envelope.  Flask should go down to that bar and buy everyone a drink for this misstep!

Westbrook finally said something.

 

I'm wondering if Zone is going to take a different tact when he inherits that section of Detroit?

 

 

 

He already had something up on his Facebook page.

Wow.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/09/city_sends_bar_involved_in_rec.html#incart_river

 

 

How utterly asinine.

 

Agreed.  This is where government fails us.  I'm sure these are automatically generated, but there has to be someone with a brain putting a stamp on the envelope. 

 

The City doesn't use stamps.  The mail is metered.  I get the point, but I would bet that Flask did not even know the letter was sent until the backlash over it was made public.  He is in charge of the entire Department of Public Safety (Police, Fire, EMS, Port Control) and cannot review individual letters which go out in his name in accordance with some automatic trigger. 

 

This is one of those situations where the City taking a proactive has unfortunate consequences.  Personally, I'm glad to hear that the City has a program in place which puts bars on notice that they are potentially creating a nuisance, even if it does result in the occasional head-scratcher.  Aren't we always complaining that the City is not proactive enough, or is that only when the bar fits a certain model?? 

 

Considering that this most recent incident was not part of the equation triggering the letter, why were the police called so many other times to this bar?

Wow.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/09/city_sends_bar_involved_in_rec.html#incart_river

 

 

How utterly asinine.

 

Agreed.  This is where government fails us.  I'm sure these are automatically generated, but there has to be someone with a brain putting a stamp on the envelope. 

 

The City doesn't use stamps.  The mail is metered.  I get the point, but I would bet that Flask did not even know the letter was sent until the backlash over it was made public.  He is in charge of the entire Department of Public Safety (Police, Fire, EMS, Port Control) and cannot review individual letters which go out in his name in accordance with some automatic trigger. 

 

This is one of those situations where the City taking a proactive has unfortunate consequences.  Personally, I'm glad to hear that the City has a program in place which puts bars on notice that they are potentially creating a nuisance, even if it does result in the occasional head-scratcher.  Aren't we always complaining that the City is not proactive enough, or is that only when the bar fits a certain model?? 

 

Considering that this most recent incident was not part of the equation triggering the letter, why were the police called so many other times to this bar?

 

If we had a good news-gathering organization in this town they may try to figure out what the other 911 calls were for.  Until then, we can only speculate (unless you have time to request the records).

 

My hunch:  they've called 911 for many of the same reasons--thugs hanging and menacing patrons, drug deals on Detroit, etc.  It certainly doesn't seem like it would be bar-fight crowd?  And if the neighborhood residents are raising these punk kids, it stands to reason that they are anti-gay as well, and may just call 911 on the bar for the sake of doing so.

 

 

 

This is one of those situations where the City taking a proactive has unfortunate consequences.  Personally, I'm glad to hear that the City has a program in place which puts bars on notice that they are potentially creating a nuisance, even if it does result in the occasional head-scratcher.  Aren't we always complaining that the City is not proactive enough, or is that only when the bar fits a certain model?? 

 

 

But is this really proactive? If a convenience store in Cleveland gets robbed once a month do they get the same letter?

Wow.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/09/city_sends_bar_involved_in_rec.html#incart_river

 

 

How utterly asinine.

 

Agreed.  This is where government fails us.  I'm sure these are automatically generated, but there has to be someone with a brain putting a stamp on the envelope. 

 

The City doesn't use stamps.  The mail is metered.  I get the point, but I would bet that Flask did not even know the letter was sent until the backlash over it was made public.  He is in charge of the entire Department of Public Safety (Police, Fire, EMS, Port Control) and cannot review individual letters which go out in his name in accordance with some automatic trigger. 

 

This is one of those situations where the City taking a proactive has unfortunate consequences.  Personally, I'm glad to hear that the City has a program in place which puts bars on notice that they are potentially creating a nuisance, even if it does result in the occasional head-scratcher.  Aren't we always complaining that the City is not proactive enough, or is that only when the bar fits a certain model?? 

 

Considering that this most recent incident was not part of the equation triggering the letter, why were the police called so many other times to this bar?

 

If we had a good news-gathering organization in this town they may try to figure out what the other 911 calls were for.  Until then, we can only speculate (unless you have time to request the records).

 

My hunch:  they've called 911 for many of the same reasons--thugs hanging and menacing patrons, drug deals on Detroit, etc.  It certainly doesn't seem like it would be bar-fight crowd?  And if the neighborhood residents are raising these punk kids, it stands to reason that they are anti-gay as well, and may just call 911 on the bar for the sake of doing so.

 

 

 

Maybe a little bit of a stereotype there….LOL.  I would rather break up ten guy fights than one girl fight.  A police officer friend of mine agrees, but told me he (and several colleagues) once got to break up two gay guys fighting over a third guy and it was the worst of both worlds.  Okay, granted....I doubt it's a common situation.

 

More to the point, the very reason these laws exist is because some bars have traditionally tried to use the police to clean up their mess, freeing them up to more or less intentionally attract problem children (easy business to draw, actually) and not pay for the means to deal with them.  It’s more for the bar calling 911, not so much the neighbors.  It might not even have been the publicity that got the warning withdrawn, but a review of the actual circumstances.

 

But is this really proactive? If a convenience store in Cleveland gets robbed once a month do they get the same letter?

 

Well smack my face and call me Sally!...... what E Rocc said ^

 

Also keep in mind that the article headline might be a little misleading.  "Calls" should actually be "responses" - i.e. the number of times the police actually were forced to respond to the scene...... which may be significant considering the complaint of the lack of response prior to the assault a few weeks back.  As much as I hate speculation, might this be somewhat of a 'never cry wolf' thing?  Or perhaps some members of the 'gold unit' having some distasteful fun with the bar in retaliation for those accusations?

Westbrook finally said something.

 

I'm wondering if Zone is going to take a different tact when he inherits that section of Detroit?

 

 

 

While i do believe Zone will continue the majority of his efforts in the Gordon Square area, i think he will do a much better job than Westbrook in Cudell. Not quite sure what the solution is, but having dealt with both of them I think Zone takes these incidents more personally and will work tirelessly to try and correct

 

Take a look at the ward maps. A lot of this area is actually in Ward 17 (soon to become Ward 11) which is actually Dona Brady's area. The area on Detroit Avenue from about West 93rd to West 110th will remain her ward. Currently Cudell is cut in thirds by different wards. It's currently no councilperson's "main area" soon it will be part of 2 wards, once again on the fringes of the councilpersons "main areas".

 

I'm sure the lack of having this neighborhood under one councilperson certainly doesn't help it!

Does Dona Brady actually exist? The lady keeps an extremely low profile.

Here are the current and future ward maps for the west side areas of Cleveland. You can see how fragmented the representation is for the Cudell area and it doesn't look to change all that much. How much will Zone be willing to work on his tiny parts of Cudell when his ward encompasses so many other "high priority" Cleveland neighborhoods?

http://www.cleveland.com/naymik/index.ssf/2013/09/emotion_and_heated_rhetoric_ob.html

^Wow, the comments on that article are ignorant at best. One tried to justify the hate crimes by saying "think of all the boys and men that are raped by gay men", and another tried to justify gay bashing because of the spreading of AIDS among the gay population. The Enquirer switching to Facebook commenting has really helped clean out the nut job commenters on Cincinnati.com...perhaps Cleveland.com should try the same thing.

^Wow, the comments on that article are ignorant at best. One tried to justify the hate crimes by saying "think of all the boys and men that are raped by gay men", and another tried to justify gay bashing because of the spreading of AIDS among the gay population. The Enquirer switching to Facebook commenting has really helped clean out the nut job commenters on Cincinnati.com...perhaps Cleveland.com should try the same thing.

 

Naw, let them vent.  People venting anonymously may be ugly to watch at times, but it's valauble background as to mindsets.  Plus, occasionally there's some real 411 buried in there.

 

In this case, it served a purpose.  Mark could leave out the racial aspects of the attacks, knowing they would come up in the comments.

^Or, as hard as it might be for some to understand, there is no apparent "racial aspect" to the attack.  The constantly played 'white victimization' card really just distracts from the actual issue here, which perhaps some would prefer to ignore.

 

The police have arrested one of the teens allegedly involved in the assault, btw

If that isn't gaybashing, I don't know what is. The thugs are well aware what kind of club it is and I'm sure they were calling the victims 'f-ggots' over and over.

 

And in terms of the racial aspect, well, I suspect that if white trash threw rocks and attacked black patrons at a black club, we'd have CNN and the usual suspects screaming racist this and racist that. It goes both ways.

If that isn't gaybashing, I don't know what is. The thugs are well aware what kind of club it is and I'm sure they were calling the victims 'f-ggots' over and over.

 

And in terms of the racial aspect, well, I suspect that if white trash threw rocks and attacked black patrons at a black club, we'd have CNN and the usual suspects screaming racist this and racist that. It goes both ways.

 

Without defending these little maggots in any way, I would have to believe that the victim was lucky he was white.  A black gay man would have been a very desirable target for these youths, who emphasize their "manhood" with these sorts of acts--and have zero respect for gay men of their own race. 

i think its seriously time to consider increasing the police force.  People are moving into the city, they need to be safe

^Agreed.  But we also need a different strategy.  Narrow down the patrols and get some 'boots on the ground' in the neighborhoods, particularly the business districts.  What I mean is the reinstitution of foot patrols, not merely sitting in the squad car on a corner.  Make an environment where people know their local patrols like they know their mail carriers.

^ who the f* knows their mail carrier??

^ I do.

Me too

This is why different penalties for “hate crimes” versus corresponding offenses is such a crappy idea.

 

It’s an attempt to weight the severity of offenses based upon the movitvations and even beliefs of the offender.  It leads to all sorts of speculative value judgements.  In a case like this, where the offender is a juvenile,  actual motives will never come out.

 

The hypothetical black gay man, for example.  Is the thugpack more likely to attack him?  I doubt it.  For one thing, the thugs don’t really “hate” gays.  A better word would be “disdain”.  They have zero respect for black or white….because they perceive them as unlikely to defend themselves.  Indeed, they may indeed have more revulsion for a black gay man…..but be wary because he might have a close relative associated with a gang.  It all balances out, and it can get complicated without any insight or benefit from same. 

 

Just punish the crimes…

 

The cops still have to maintain a certain distance from potential perps.  Hell, I have to watch who I let close at the bar because people who think they are your “buddy” will not listen when its time to do so.  Then there’s the need to react , and get around quickly.

 

The mounted cops are a better approach than foot patrols in places like downtown.  They aren’t behind glass, but they’re not on the same level and can react very quickly. 

nm

^ who the f* knows their mail carrier??

 

I did until he retired, now we are the 5:00 swing route.

^ who the f* knows their mail carrier??

 

People like me, who have mail carriers that walk to your front door mail slot with your mail.

^ who the f* knows their mail carrier??

 

People like me, who have mail carriers that walk to your front door mail slot with your mail.

 

I have one too, but as I am at work when the mail is delivered I never interact with them.  Also I am rarely home on a Sat. so never see them then either.  I can't imagine that my situation is that uncommon. 

 

This also makes us pretty bad neighbors as we have very limited interaction with those on our street.  We know our immediate neighbors, but anyone else on our street is a mystery.  No so good from a safety perspective.

I didn't mean to derail this thread with the mailman analogy.  Of course not EVERYONE knows their mailman.  Many don't.  The point was that cops walking the beat (and not simply sitting in their cars) IN AN URBAN NEIGHBORHOOD allows them to interact with business owners and residents.  It allows them to form relationships and trust, which are both sorely lacking between the CPD and the local residents.  This, not the stop and frisk policy, was the most effective compenent/strategy in the NYC order maintenance policing approach IMNSHO.

I didn't mean to derail this thread with the mailman analogy.  Of course not EVERYONE knows their mailman.  Many don't.  The point was that cops walking the beat (and not simply sitting in their cars) IN AN URBAN NEIGHBORHOOD allows them to interact with business owners and residents.  It allows them to form relationships and trust, which are both sorely lacking between the CPD and the local residents.  This, not the stop and frisk policy, was the most effective compenent/strategy in the NYC order maintenance policing approach IMNSHO.

 

I agree we should see more cops on the streets, especially in our commercial districts. Does far more for the neighborhood than sitting in a driveway watching for people speeding.

 

There is something nice about seeing cops patrol the neighborhood by foot as well. Creates a sense of community, and does enhance the perception of safety.

Police on foot patrol does have a lot of benefits but it's hard to implement.  Officers need to be able to respond quickly & cover a LOT of territory in a city like Cleveland.  Being on foot patrol doesn't lend itself too well to that.  I believe there are union restrictions to having officers walk and not be in a car as well

How many officers are on duty at one time?

Police on foot patrol does have a lot of benefits but it's hard to implement.  Officers need to be able to respond quickly & cover a LOT of territory in a city like Cleveland.  Being on foot patrol doesn't lend itself too well to that.  I believe there are union restrictions to having officers walk and not be in a car as well

 

To be clear, I am not talking about a city-wide implementation, but rather select denser neighborhoods.  For a neighborhood like Central, it would be exceedingly difficult to implement.  For neighborhoods like Tremont, OC, DS, Cuddel, etc., not so much.

 

There may be union restrictions, but it is an issue which would by default be a management right and, for that reason, the City would have much greater leverage in negotiating the issue when the current contract expires.

Don't forget how much technology is in the patrol cars these days too.  Officers can look down quickly at a laptop & get all info & photos of a possible suspect, GPS mapquest data showing them where to go for their next call, etc etc.  Very tough to have access to that much data when on foot

I think you are assuming that I'm advocating for an elimination of squad car patrols.  I'm not.  NYC didn't eliminate car patrols.  And it's not like the officers walking the beat would walk from the station.  They would still have a squad car very nearby if need be.  They can also use mobile command centers.  Bottom line, is it is not an either/or proposition. 

 

At present, the criminals in Cleveland largely just have to be on the lookout for a squad car, which sticks out like a sore thumb in too many neighborhoods.... even the 'unmarked' cars.  Knowing a cop could be strolling around the corner at any given moment or lurking somewhere in the shadows would have a dettering effect I would think if the patrols were implemented and used correctly.

 

Here's a good analysis on the issue from the DOJ - http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/html/dispatch/February_2009/foot_patrol.htm

I had hinted at this on the previous page.....

 

Teen charged in Cleveland LGBT bar assault will likely not face hate crime

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The 16-year-old boy arrested Tuesday on robbery charges stemming from the Labor Day weekend attack of a man outside a Cleveland LGBT friendly bar will likely not face hate crime charges.

 

The reason? Ohio law does not specify that a crime against someone based on sexual orientation is a hate crime.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/09/teen_charged_in_cleveland_lgbt.html

What a bunch of bullsh!t.

^what is?  the Ohio law not being specific to sexual orientation?  I would agree with that being BS..... but my preliminary thoughts (I haven't thought much about it) is to agree with the federal standard that hate crimes generally shouldn't be applicalbe to minors.

^ohio law, although I do feel minors should have a higher penalty.

^From the article....

 

But Dan Tierney, spokesperson for the Ohio Attorney General’s Office, said that when sentencing offenders, one of the factors judges have to consider by law is “whether the offender was motivated by prejudice based on race, ethnic background, gender, sexual orientation, or religion.” Prosecutors could argue that because a person targeted a member of the LGBT community, the convicted deserves a harsher sentence.

 

 

I had hinted at this on the previous page.....

 

Teen charged in Cleveland LGBT bar assault will likely not face hate crime

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The 16-year-old boy arrested Tuesday on robbery charges stemming from the Labor Day weekend attack of a man outside a Cleveland LGBT friendly bar will likely not face hate crime charges.

 

The reason? Ohio law does not specify that a crime against someone based on sexual orientation is a hate crime.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/09/teen_charged_in_cleveland_lgbt.html

 

So make the case that he committed the crime in part because Jarred Fox is white.....

As much as you might like to, what shred of evidence (not inferences, innuendoes, and speculation) is there to go on?  Your self-proclaimed expertise in the "thug mentality" is not admissible, FYI.