TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2019

The Outlet Shoppes of Cleveland is back in stock again

 

With the goal of opening its doors to customers in the spring of 2022, the Outlet Shoppes of Cleveland is the subject of local and national leasing activities now underway. The project, originally proposed several years ago and on the other side of the Shoreway highway, is back and is being pursued aggressively by its national developer.

According to project's backers, they say that "remarkable progress" has been made behind the scenes on developing the 320,000-square-foot retail center. It is proposed to be built on roughly 14 acres of city-owned land between the Shoreway and South Marginal Road, just south of Burke Lakefront Airport.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/11/the-outlet-shoppes-of-cleveland-is-back.html

Edited November 19, 20195 yr by KJP

^ SWEET parking lot!  ?   Seriously?   I would hope the planning commission would at the VERY least require a parking deck...but even that would be disappointing.  I pretty much thought "outlet malls" were out of fashion.  Lodi, for example, is just a big empty space with minimal stores left.  Who knows?  Maybe it will work here...

I would be more upset except for the fact that I don't think it has a snowball's chance in hell of happening.

Looking at all the potential retailers I feel like this would destroy the ability for the heart of downtown to gain the retailers we’ve been so hoping would soon attract with the increasing population growth. Also, the parking and access to interstates makes it so people will come to the outlets, shop, then leave. 

Edited November 19, 20195 yr by cle_guy90

If the retailers were clamoring to have a presence here, why wouldn’t they have just filled Tower City?

I'm not terribly familiar with Outlet Shoppes / Malls, but I can't think of many that are within a city, urban environment or being practically downtown. They seem to be usually a few exits outside of an urbanized area, or in a third ring / outer suburb. Tanger Outlets; Columbus, Pittsburgh, Jeffersonville, Lodi Station, Aurora Farms. 

 

I mean this site might as well be any random highway exit, its about as isolated as you can get in a central city. I guess if the outlet is going to be built in Northeastern Ohio, at least its Cleveland getting the potential revenue, but virtually zero spin off. Also the amount of city revenue may be questionable for what they will be asked to invest in infrastructure, or what Geis / anther developer may build in the future. 

 

Does anyone know of a comparable urban Outlet Mall development?

Edited November 19, 20195 yr by NorthShore647

Based upon the design and location, it would appear to be geared more for the suburbanites and tourists vs those residing in the CBD.  It could however provide the City/County with sorely-needed revenue after the initial investment.

It may work. The West Palm Beach Mall was leveled, only to be replaced with an outdoor Palm Beach Outlets that has been very successful. Its located on I-95 and Palm Beach Lakes Blvd.

 

https://www.palmbeachoutlets.com/directory/

Edited November 19, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

Although I may seldom visit it, I am intrigued by the comments that the infrastructure proposed to support this may also be designed to support additional development nearby. Like what, and where? Perhaps some housing on the rest of the Muny lots? If so, this outlet mall may not be so isolated for very long.

There was talk about converting CityView in Garfield Hts to an outlet mall a while back.  I assume that idea was scrapped.

I am a little bit confused  - Is this in the exact same spot as the original plan

which was North  of Rt 2 south of burke  OR is this South of Rt 2 in the 

Municipal Parking lot.

Y’all trippin lol. Do you guys have any idea how many shoppers this thing will draw? And how that’ll actually be a benefit for Clevelanders too? This’ll get exurbaners in the city but those of us who live in the city will be able to shop there too. I know people look down at “icky” outlet malls, but I’m telling you, this is going to be a ridiculous draw

8 minutes ago, simplythis said:

I am a little bit confused  - Is this in the exact same spot as the original plan

which was North  of Rt 2 south of burke  OR is this South of Rt 2 in the 

Municipal Parking lot.

 

South of Route 2/Shoreway

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2019

The Outlet Shoppes of Cleveland is back in stock again

 

With the goal of opening its doors to customers in the spring of 2022, the Outlet Shoppes of Cleveland is the subject of local and national leasing activities now underway. The project, originally proposed several years ago and on the other side of the Shoreway highway, is back and is being pursued aggressively by its national developer.

According to project's backers, they say that "remarkable progress" has been made behind the scenes on developing the 320,000-square-foot retail center. It is proposed to be built on roughly 14 acres of city-owned land between the Shoreway and South Marginal Road, just south of Burke Lakefront Airport.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/11/the-outlet-shoppes-of-cleveland-is-back.html

 

I edited the opening paragraph to clarify the site's location.

Edited November 19, 20195 yr by KJP

Drive-by shopping. Just far away enough to not bring people in to shop in downtown and just far enough away to not be a companion to the RRHF - which I think is needed to become like an Inner Harbor type attraction. And I don’t  think a strip mall right there is going to really pull people in from the burbs. 

Edited November 19, 20195 yr by CleveFan

4 minutes ago, CleveFan said:

Drive-by shopping. Just far away enough to not bring people in to shop in downtown and just far enough away to not be a companion to the RRHF - which I think is needed to become like an Inner Harbor type attraction. And I don’t  think a strip mall right there is going to really pull people in from the burbs. 

Yeah, would be cool if it was incorporated into Cumberland’s plan north of the stadium.

If i am correct I think this is the 3rd site that has been considered. The original site was

North of the Shoreway south of burke on that geis property there. The second was north of the shoreway

further up close to dead man's curve and this one which is South of the shoreway. I think it is the best spot from all three

but don't the Brown's tailgaters go that far into the municipal parking lot. 

I think the original location on the Burke was MUCH better than the new location. At least that original location would be walkable from Northcoast Harbor and allowed for the possibility of better connection to lakefront development in the future. 

Does GEIS have control of most of the property north of the Shoreway and east of Cumberland?

If this development dosen't scream 1995, I dont know what does!

1 hour ago, inlovewithCLE said:

Y’all trippin lol. Do you guys have any idea how many shoppers this thing will draw? And how that’ll actually be a benefit for Clevelanders too? This’ll get exurbaners in the city but those of us who live in the city will be able to shop there too. I know people look down at “icky” outlet malls, but I’m telling you, this is going to be a ridiculous draw

 

We already have an urban streetgrid and huge unused buildings that can be repurposed for such things. This is just a very bad location for this thing. Now if it was designed to compliment the unique lakefront views, aesthetic it would be great. But this is going to look like hot garbage. 

I'm just picturing this place during airshows and airstrip marathons

The city may benefit from something like this in the short-term but in a decade or so when it falters it will be another huge, single use structure to deal with. 

2nd rate mix of outlet stores, many already in the market. Not an upgrade, except for a few like Tory Burch, etc...

These are the kinds of things we need in walkable, mixed use downtown. This has serious risk to pull retail away out of downtown and prevent us from filling in the vacant retail spots throughout.

The more I think about this project, the more I question the rationale.  This type of development would obviously be preferred in the CBD where individual retail establishments have been difficult to secure and maintain.

 

Why build a retail complex so close to the CBD, but not close enough to walk or take a train?

 

Why place it along an isolated section of the Shoreway unless it is intended to provide easy access/regress to those travelling from the suburbs by car?

 

Given the number of suburban and urban mall closings and repurposing, why build another retail complex here on the lake?

5 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

The more I think about this project, the more I question the rationale.  This type of development would obviously be preferred in the CBD where individual retail establishments have been difficult to secure and maintain.

 

Why build a retail complex so close to the CBD, but not close enough to walk or take a train?

 

Why place it along an isolated section of the Shoreway unless it is intended to provide easy access/regress to those travelling from the suburbs by car?

 

Given the number of suburban and urban mall closings and repurposing, why build another retail complex here on the lake?

Outlet malls are thriving, for the most part, not closing. This is a creative way to get retail in the city. I understood it the moment they announced it. Where are you gonna plop a major outlet retail development like this in the CBD (along with providing enough parking for the shoppers)? You all complaining about it not being in old buildings would HATE what a parking plan for something like this would look like in the CBD and what buildings would be lost because of it. (And if you don’t have enough parking, you’ll suffer off the top). The closest competition for this thing is miles away. And I guarantee you there’s gonna be a lot of people shopping here and spending money in the city, pumping more money in the city (including people who stay away from the city otherwise). I thought that was the point, to have ways for people to spend more money within the city limits, to provide more resources and to get more people downtown. The target audience for this ain’t walking to a CBD attraction anyway, if they go they’re going to drive.

4 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

Outlet malls are thriving, for the most part, not closing. This is a creative way to get retail in the city. I understood it the moment they announced it. Where are you gonna plop a major outlet retail development like this in the CBD (along with providing enough parking for the shoppers)? You all complaining about it not being in old buildings would HATE what a parking plan for something like this would look like in the CBD and what buildings would be lost because of it. (And if you don’t have enough parking, you’ll suffer off the top). The closest competition for this thing is miles away. And I guarantee you there’s gonna be a lot of people shopping here and spending money in the city, pumping more money in the city (including people who stay away from the city otherwise). I thought that was the point, to have ways for people to spend more money within the city limits, to provide more resources and to get more people downtown. The target audience for this ain’t walking to a CBD attraction anyway, if they go they’re going to drive.

If part of the plan was to cover the tracks in some way and mesh it going up the hill to tie in with the street grid, I’d be much more receptive.

24 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

Outlet malls are thriving, for the most part, not closing. This is a creative way to get retail in the city. I understood it the moment they announced it. Where are you gonna plop a major outlet retail development like this in the CBD (along with providing enough parking for the shoppers)? You all complaining about it not being in old buildings would HATE what a parking plan for something like this would look like in the CBD and what buildings would be lost because of it. (And if you don’t have enough parking, you’ll suffer off the top). The closest competition for this thing is miles away. And I guarantee you there’s gonna be a lot of people shopping here and spending money in the city, pumping more money in the city (including people who stay away from the city otherwise). I thought that was the point, to have ways for people to spend more money within the city limits, to provide more resources and to get more people downtown. The target audience for this ain’t walking to a CBD attraction anyway, if they go they’re going to drive.

This is really the only rationale I can come up with.  For an initial investment in infrastructure, the City can benefit from what will hopefully be many years of revenue and any additional surrounding development that it may attract in that NE corner of the CBD.

 

BTW, those $#@% railroad tracks are killer. They need to go!

Edited November 20, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

The actual site plan could probably use help but I agree this is a good idea in theory. Us pesky millennials like outlet malls—and the site use great for inner ringers, who are currently pretty far from any retail.

I'm very much in favor of this. The only competitors to this are Aurora and to a lesser extent Lodi. Outlet malls don't really compete with regular malls , and unlike regular retail, outlet shopping is booming. I've never been out to Lodi, but Aurora is an absolute drab and dated dump. I wouldn't be sad if they end up poaching tenants (hopefully Saks off 5th) from Aurora. The outlet shoppers should absolutely be in the city, and at the end of a rail line no less. What kind of opportunities do kids growing up in the city have at finding a job at our current transit inaccessible outlet malls? Retail can be a great first step into the job market for young workers to gain experience and skills which transfer to the needs of other industries. I certainly  believe I wouldn't be where I am today if I'd started out anywhere else. Kids in Cleveland without access to cars deserve that same opportunity.

19 minutes ago, PoshSteve said:

I'm very much in favor of this. The only competitors to this are Aurora and to a lesser extent Lodi. Outlet malls don't really compete with regular malls , and unlike regular retail, outlet shopping is booming. I've never been out to Lodi, but Aurora is an absolute drab and dated dump. I wouldn't be sad if they end up poaching tenants (hopefully Saks off 5th) from Aurora. The outlet shoppers should absolutely be in the city, and at the end of a rail line no less. What kind of opportunities do kids growing up in the city have at finding a job at our current transit inaccessible outlet malls? Retail can be a great first step into the job market for young workers to gain experience and skills which transfer to the needs of other industries. I certainly  believe I wouldn't be where I am today if I'd started out anywhere else. Kids in Cleveland without access to cars deserve that same opportunity.

If this could be constructed in a Navy Pier like set up on the water, I’d really like it. The cruise shippers would too. Kitschy Ferris wheel and all. This location is soooo isolated.

Edited November 20, 20195 yr by marty15

The city has wanted to extend East 18th street North to the Shoreway for a long time so that it can relieve East 9th street of some of its traffic. I recall the city having some interest in making an intersection rather than an interchange between East 18th and the Shoreway and then being able to restructure the Shoreway west of there as a boulevard. Of course, that would take a lot of money but ODOT seems to be in a spending mood lately so who knows?

They should put a IKEA they seem to do really good business 

2 minutes ago, KJP said:

The city has wanted to extend East 18th street North to the Shoreway for a long time so that it can relieve East 9th street of some of its traffic. I recall the city having some interest in making an intersection rather than an interchange between East 18th and the Shoreway and then being able to restructure the Shoreway west of there as a boulevard. Of course, that would take a lot of money but ODOT seems to be in a spending mood lately so who knows?

Yeah, I recall something like that. Maybe when they were serious about redoing the trench. A boulevard from Deadman’s curve to east 9th makes too much sense. You could eliminate the marginal roads through that stretch then.

I’m really banking on the whole prospect of nearby future development to go along with this. And honestly, it could end up boosting RTA ridership whether through employees or patrons (hopefully both) that will take the rapid to the end of the line to get there.

 

This is definitely an interesting development, for sure. While I don’t think it’s perfect by any means and do wish it was better integrated up the hill and into the street grid, I think we need to give it a chance. I’ll be optimistic about this.

 

I could even see suburbanites being MORE likely to continue farther into downtown before/after shopping here. Whereas other outlet malls are seemingly in the middle of nowhere, this one could attract day-trippers and visitors to spend their remaining visit elsewhere such as the Rock Hall, a sporting event, PHS performance, and so on. I think this could easily boost downtown visiting - and even better for us urbanites, lead to more investment and development around it. This could very likely be just a small ripple that radiates into a series of East Side investments.

 

In my ideal scenario, shoppers would get an RTA discount/comp pass to take the rapid into downtown if they spend x amount of dollars at the complex. Gives patrons incentive to spend more (and resulting in greater city revenues) while additionally increasing RTA ridership (which is much needed and desired) while bringing even more foot traffic and spending into downtown proper.

Edited November 20, 20195 yr by urbanetics_

4 minutes ago, urbanetics_ said:

I’m really banking on the whole prospect of nearby future development to go along with this. And honestly, it could end up boosting RTA ridership whether through employees or patrons (hopefully both) that will take the rapid to the end of the line to get there.

 

This is definitely an interesting development, for sure. While I don’t think it’s perfect by any means and do wish it was better integrated up the hill and into the street grid, I think we need to give it a chance. I’ll be optimistic about this.

 

I could even see suburbanites being MORE likely to continue farther into downtown before/after shopping here. Whereas other outlet malls are seemingly in the middle of nowhere, this one could attract day-trippers and visitors to spend their remaining visit elsewhere such as the Rock Hall, a sporting event, PHS performance, and so on. I think this could easily boost downtown visiting - and even better for us urbanites, lead to more investment and development around it. This could very likely be just a small ripple that radiates into a series of East Side investments.

 

In my ideal scenario, shoppers would get an RTA discount/comp pass to take the rapid into downtown if they spend x amount of dollars at the complex. Gives patrons incentive to spend more (and resulting in greater city revenues) while additionally increasing RTA ridership (which is much needed and desired) while bringing even more foot traffic and spending into downtown proper.

The downtown Rapid loop needs to happen. With or without this project. 

49 minutes ago, PoshSteve said:

I'm very much in favor of this. The only competitors to this are Aurora and to a lesser extent Lodi. Outlet malls don't really compete with regular malls , and unlike regular retail, outlet shopping is booming. I've never been out to Lodi, but Aurora is an absolute drab and dated dump. I wouldn't be sad if they end up poaching tenants (hopefully Saks off 5th) from Aurora. The outlet shoppers should absolutely be in the city, and at the end of a rail line no less. What kind of opportunities do kids growing up in the city have at finding a job at our current transit inaccessible outlet malls? Retail can be a great first step into the job market for young workers to gain experience and skills which transfer to the needs of other industries. I certainly  believe I wouldn't be where I am today if I'd started out anywhere else. Kids in Cleveland without access to cars deserve that same opportunity.

Amen

As someone who lives on the West side I would say this would give us an extra reason to spend a few days downtown every year. Another thing to remember, outlet malls a lot of times have stores that don't just pop up along streets in cities or towns. They seem to be "outlet" specific. I could be wrong, but I believe stores like Nike Outlet are completely separate and offer different product from say a Nike store that would open up as a stand alone downtown storefront. So I would lean towards saying an outlet mall here and a future retail frontage along Euclid aren't mutually exclusive. 

Ok, so cool outlet mall and all, but did anyone else notice this?!  Zoomed in screenshot from page 10 of the marketing brochure.  Every other major proposed downtown project has a yellow outlined box around it on the map with the name of the project inside the box.  There is one box, however, without a name! and yes it happens to be on the Weston lots! Mean anything? Lol

Edited November 20, 20195 yr by West153

8 hours ago, NorthShore647 said:

I'm not terribly familiar with Outlet Shoppes / Malls, but I can't think of many that are within a city, urban environment or being practically downtown. They seem to be usually a few exits outside of an urbanized area, or in a third ring / outer suburb. Tanger Outlets; Columbus, Pittsburgh, Jeffersonville, Lodi Station, Aurora Farms. 

 

I mean this site might as well be any random highway exit, its about as isolated as you can get in a central city. I guess if the outlet is going to be built in Northeastern Ohio, at least its Cleveland getting the potential revenue, but virtually zero spin off. Also the amount of city revenue may be questionable for what they will be asked to invest in infrastructure, or what Geis / anther developer may build in the future. 

 

Does anyone know of a comparable urban Outlet Mall development?

not true.  Just look at state street in chicago.  there are many outlet and factory stores located near marshall fields.

7 hours ago, KJP said:

 

I edited the opening paragraph to clarify the site's location.

NOBODY on this board, and I mean NOBODY want retail in Downtown more than me.

 

With all the renovated space, along Euclid AND the various malls, this could be located in other locations.

 

If this is built, I hope residential and hotel along with a rail extension is included.

The images in the NEOtrans article of this “outlet mall” actually look nice.  My first reaction to this was to shudder, bAsed on the previous version of an outlet mall, in the location closer to Burke   ( I recall a “lipstick on a pig” post describing  it).  My concern this time is the location and how this could actually be a big missed opportunity.  The idea that this property will draw a lot of people into the CBD for additional shopping or restaurant-going is a nice one but is pure conjecture at this point . I think this has the potential to be a very successful  entity yet one that is very disconnected from the downtown.  It’s location is problematic -  it’s not a “walkable close” and I just happen to think that this outlet will tend to provide an “all-in-one experience” for most shoppers. The idea of a lot of new retail, the accompanying jobs and revenue for the city- all positive! But  how cool would it be to create something “Inner Harbor”-like just a bit further west where RRHF and Science Museum tourists would have a walkable destination for shopping and dining. That could greatly  help the Rock Hall and create an even more visited tourist Area.  The RRHF will be cool 20 years from now as would an Inner- Harbor type shopping experience - but an outlet mall on its own?  We’ve seen Malls that we’re once thought to be permanent become irrelevant within a few decades.  I don’t know if this location is a done deal but that’s my biggest concern - the missed opportunity for something really special  so very nearby. 

Edited November 20, 20195 yr by CleveFan

The main objection here is the isolated and disconnected location. It’s an absolutely awful location, though better than being north of the Shoreway. At least there’s A CHANCE that area could be connected to the rest of the CBD.

 

  A great location, if the city has any ability to steer this, which they should, is The Pit lots. It’d be a great way to develop a major in/out of the Flats, and connect directly to the Shoreway, which is sorely needed. It could also easily be meshed with the Warehouse District as well as the Flats East bank, developing along the tracks. But this is me just spending other people’s money. The developable land mass is probably similar, and highway access about the same.

Edited November 20, 20195 yr by marty15

16 hours ago, tykaps said:

These are the kinds of things we need in walkable, mixed use downtown. This has serious risk to pull retail away out of downtown and prevent us from filling in the vacant retail spots throughout.

 

Exactly.  And outlet malls and casinos go hand-in-hand.   They share the same patrons.  Most major casinos in the USA include some sort of shopping experience.   This thing should be built close to Tower City and the Jack.    

2 hours ago, Cleburger said:

 

Exactly.  And outlet malls and casinos go hand-in-hand.   They share the same patrons.  Most major casinos in the USA include some sort of shopping experience.   This thing should be built close to Tower City and the Jack.    

Would love to see data on this. The clientele at outlets I’ve seen seem incredibly different from clientele at casinos I’ve been to. 

2 hours ago, Cleburger said:

 

Exactly.  And outlet malls and casinos go hand-in-hand.   They share the same patrons.  Most major casinos in the USA include some sort of shopping experience.   This thing should be built close to Tower City and the Jack.    

Canada too. I'm surprised Dan Gilbert INC isn't courting this kind of development along the river. 

 

I think my biggest worry about this project is the architecture. The current renderings make it obvious the "back of the building" is facing out toward the lake. I thought we were past that. No builder would obstruct oceanfront views and I'm not sure I understand why views of Lake Erie don't have the same value. 

 

I wonder how they plan on restricting commuter parking while at the same time still providing parking for their customers?

6 minutes ago, Larry1962 said:

 

I wonder how they plan on restricting commuter parking while at the same time still providing parking for their customers?

 

That section of the muny lot is always empty -- except for the 10 weekends a year when tailgaters use it or when the city uses it for police training (another use likely to move to East 75th and OC).

But will it still be empty once all the parking craters go away?   

 

That's a problem I'm looking forward to.