4 minutes ago, Pugu said:

^Whats that almost vertical line over the shoreway?  Is it a pedestrian bridge? I would be great to have a bridge there with 3 access points---the Downtown area on the bluff at E 17 or 18, a connection to the shops, and at the north end BKL----it would connect three important things that are otherwise not connected at all.

 

4 hours ago, KJP said:

And the view courtesy of GoogleEarth (with East 18th Street extension added)

 

(emphasis added)

Take a walk 15 years back in time, ignore hindsight for a moment, and you'll see nearly the same arguments for/against this development as you do for Steelyard Commons on UrbanOhio, weighing the pros/cons of national retailers in a suburban, car-centric format located inside city limits...

16 hours ago, skiwest said:

Do we know if this would impact an extension of the Waterfront Line to the east or ODOT's plan to eventually fix Deadman's Curve?

Shouldn’t affect the innerbelt much, no. A realignment of S Marginal was included in the work, so they’d have to revise that but I believe that would be it. 

21 hours ago, skiwest said:

Do we know if this would impact an extension of the Waterfront Line to the east or ODOT's plan to eventually fix Deadman's Curve?

 

This was the plan that ODOT approved in 2007. I believe it's still the in-force plan.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

This was the plan that ODOT approved in 2007. I believe it's still the in-force plan.

KJP, as I'm sure you know, there have been complaints/discussions about fixing Deadman's Curve since the 1960's, when barrelling trucks and vehicles would completely miss it, rollover and crash. There was a half-hearted attempt to attenuate the curve, but it's still much too severe.

Here we are 60 years later still talking about ODOT remedying Deadman's Curve.

That would open up a lot of lakefront, CBD and southern inner-city land for development, but it would undoubtedly alienate the suburbanite/exurbanites who want their easy access/regress.

On 12/9/2019 at 12:31 AM, TBideon said:

Not necessarily. The Fashion Outlets of Chicago (in Rosemont) is a massive draw unto itself, but there are still multiple hotels, a nearby attractive lifestyle center, a convention center, and tons of pedestrian traffic. 

 

The Outlet Collection in NOLA also seems to work well in the area, and I don't think it's taking too many people off the streets. Just another piece to the puzzle overall.

 

And finally, at least downtown Cleveland will finally have shopping for its residents, workforce, tourists, and suburbanites. It's too bad those shops can't fill up Tower City and the Galleria, but hey, at least Beachwood Place and Crocker Park will finally have competition. Keep that revenue local as opposed to Aurora. 

I've been in that outlet mall twice and its superb and always busy, literally a five minute walk to Canal Street. It attracts a lot of local shoppers in addition to tourists. Obviously it would be more of a tourist heavy destination than Cleveland, but at the same time its jammed right at the back of Downtown NOLA unlike this which will have quick access to the interstate which is a bonus for attracting locals and less hassle that trudging through busy streets to say Tower City. The NOLA Riverwalk was a guinea pig for Downtown Outlets IMO and its passed with flying colors, IIRC its completely leased out. The acid test now will be if they can survive and sustain in less tourist friendly markets as tourists are always willing to part with their cash. This will still attract out of town visitors as well though to be fair I'd imagine because its downtown, next to attractions and easily accessible from a major interstate. 

 

The conventional mall/retail center market is saturated, but as far as outlets go Aurora Farms is a bit of a drive from the city so I'm more confident this can work. I expect the food/beverage offerings will be typical mall food court type offerings based on their other centres, but I'm hopeful they can attract big name stores to it. I would definitely use stores such as Tommy Hilfiger, New Balance, Under Armour, Ralph Lauren, Levis, Adidas etc (awaits abuse for my taste). Even a Nordstrom Rack type store could work well there, theres one of them in the New Orleans Riverwalk.

 

My biggest fear will be that its a cookie cutter cheapskate design, although I'm hoping they up their game here as it isn't their usual outlet mall dumped in the suburbs/middle of nowhere job, and if they do it right, it can easily be a flag bearer for their company. I'm not concerned about Tower City. Wouldn't surprise me if in a years time that the retail aspect of that is completely gone. What I'm intrigued about though is if this will affect the retail/food & beverage options that Nucleus would potentially hope to offer? Some of their larger outlet centres seem to have some bigger name stores such as H&M as opposed to flat out outlet stores.

 

At one point I was extremely sceptical if this would ever happen. It was first announced in July 2016.

 

Edited December 10, 20195 yr by snakebite

If Nucleus is built, this project should have little to no effect. Remember, as indicated in the press release, this development targets the 3.8M people living within a 60 mile radius; people who would not want to pay to park at Nucleus and then be challenged to get to their interstate.

I've just read that press release and it seems like they are going to dedicate a lot more space to food/entertainment than their other properties typically receive. It almost strikes me as an outlet style lifestyle center looking at the updated renderings and the way they plan to divide up the space.

 

Would a Yard House, Dewey's, Smashburger or Dave and Buster's be any different to what we'd expect to see at the Nucleus? Obviously it's a much more suburban/family geared setup than Nucleus but I can't imagine there would not be some crossover in the tenants they'd seek to attract. 

Just getting caught up to this thread, but as a *millennial* (lol) downtown worker and Cleveland resident, I hate driving to the outskirts of town to go to the mall and for that reason have never really been to any area malls, east or west. It'd be awesome to take the train down to a substantial shopping presence and knock everything out versus shopping online.

 

Also, with the steelyard comment above, I live near the development and it's awesome to have ( probably one of the best Aldi's fwiw).

 

Lastly, a contiguous bike and pedestrian bridge/path connecting over the shoreway would be awesome, the marginals are fun to bike or run on but from 55th to 9th is a loooong ways for most folks. 

45 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Also, with the steelyard comment above, I live near the development and it's awesome to have ( probably one of the best Aldi's fwiw).

I love Steelyard. It’s great to have those brands in the city. As a born and raised Clevelander who almost always had to go to the suburbs for stuff, I’m glad we have that here. It’s amazing how many people were wrong about Steelyard and how many people are making the same argument with this

3 hours ago, snakebite said:

 

Would a Yard House, Dewey's, Smashburger or Dave and Buster's be any different to what we'd expect to see at the Nucleus? Obviously it's a much more suburban/family geared setup than Nucleus but I can't imagine there would not be some crossover in the tenants they'd seek to attract. 

I was just thinking a D&B or Gameworks or something would make a welcome addition for downtown residents and east siders—and a complete different feel than anything currently downtown. It probably wouldn’t really fit anywhere else but May or 925–either way would fit better here. 

14 hours ago, GISguy said:

Just getting caught up to this thread, but as a *millennial* (lol) downtown worker and Cleveland resident, I hate driving to the outskirts of town to go to the mall and for that reason have never really been to any area malls, east or west. It'd be awesome to take the train down to a substantial shopping presence and knock everything out versus shopping online.

 

Also, with the steelyard comment above, I live near the development and it's awesome to have ( probably one of the best Aldi's fwiw).

 

Lastly, a contiguous bike and pedestrian bridge/path connecting over the shoreway would be awesome, the marginals are fun to bike or run on but from 55th to 9th is a loooong ways for most folks. 

 

This reminds me a little bit of Portland's Cascade Station MAX light rail stop...where hipsters and suburbanites collide...for big box store / IKEA shopping:

 

Edited December 11, 20195 yr by MuRrAy HiLL

23 minutes ago, MuRrAy HiLL said:

This reminds me a little bit of Portland's Cascade Station MAX light rail stop...where hipsters and suburbanites collide...for big box store / IKEA shopping:

 

Yoga pants vs beards.   Must be quite the sight! ?

12 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

Yoga pants vs beards.   Must be quite the sight! ?

 

Exactly.  ?  You extend the waterfront line a couple hundred feet and you'll have @GISguy shopping there next to the Real Housewives of Bay Village. 

29 minutes ago, MuRrAy HiLL said:

 

Exactly.  ?  You extend the waterfront line a couple hundred feet and you'll have @GISguy shopping there next to the Real Housewives of Bay Village. 

 

Won't happen until after RTA reduces its massive state-of-good-repair backlog. The cost of extending the Waterfront Line 1/3 of a mile to the front door of the proposed outlet shopping center would be about $10 million to $20 million -- assuming no underground (sewer) surprises are found in the area. It would be cheaper for people to walk the 1/2-mile from the South Harbor station.

2 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Won't happen until after RTA reduces its massive state-of-good-repair backlog. The cost of extending the Waterfront Line 1/3 of a mile to the front door of the proposed outlet shopping center would be about $10 million to $20 million -- assuming no underground (sewer) surprises are found in the area. It would be cheaper for people to walk the 1/2-mile from the South Harbor station.

Or run a new "O Line" trolley between the two points.  "Sponsored by the Outlet Shoppes of Cleveland.  Give us your O face and ride free!"

11 minutes ago, sizzlinbeef said:

Or run a new "O Line" trolley between the two points.  "Sponsored by the Outlet Shoppes of Cleveland.  Give us your O face and ride free!"

They should just build it north of the South Harbor station. That way it has the transit connection and is more walkable from downtown and the lakefront. 

23 minutes ago, JSC216 said:

They should just build it north of the South Harbor station. That way it has the transit connection and is more walkable from downtown and the lakefront. 

Interesting point.  Could one fit an outlet mall and parking between the convention center and the science center, and get a multi-modal hub and cap over the Shoreway all in one fell swoop?  That's a public-private partnership I could get behind.

4 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Won't happen until after RTA reduces its massive state-of-good-repair backlog. The cost of extending the Waterfront Line 1/3 of a mile to the front door of the proposed outlet shopping center would be about $10 million to $20 million -- assuming no underground (sewer) surprises are found in the area. It would be cheaper for people to walk the 1/2-mile from the South Harbor station.

? I wonder if a moving walkway would work for those who would not like to walk a 1/2 mile...???

I actually think this is a pretty decent location for an outlet mall.  I just wish that they would build it a little further West on this site and just keep all of their parking to the East.  This would put it a little closer to the RTA station.  No way will RTA extend this rail line.  They have to drive THROUGH Public Square because they can't afford the gas to drive AROUND it.   I thought it was pretty funny when I saw that City Block was going to close Prospect to make it a pedestrian friendly park.  I'm sure RTA would need to have the buses plow through that too.

This reminds me of the Opry Mills outlet mall in Nashville. While not downtown, its still in the middle of a major metro, instead of being built on the far outskirts. It also has a large entertainment component, and has non-outlet stores mixed in. They also tie it in with the Grand Ole Opry, which is right next door. I wonder if this one can do something similar and capitalize on proximity to the Rock Hall. Its obviously a greater distance than Opry Mills and The Grand Ole Opry, but maybe run a shuttle for tourists, or have a Rock Line trolley that loops up to downtown too.

To be honest, Opry Mills failed fairly quickly.  

On 12/11/2019 at 8:46 PM, 3231 said:

To be honest, Opry Mills failed fairly quickly.  

 

I thought it closed due to a severe flood? It had a mix of outlet and non-outlet stores. And it reopened two years later as a 1+ million square foot super-regional shopping mall.

5 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

I thought it closed due to a severe flood? It had a mix of outlet and non-outlet stores. And it reopened two years later as a 1+ million square foot super-regional shopping mall.

Correct. It closed for 2 years after the flood in 2010. They had 10 feet of water in the mall. Though it was closed for so long due to insurance claim disputes. I was next door, working on the Opryland Hotel at the time.

On 12/7/2019 at 7:42 PM, inlovewithCLE said:

It’s really just that simple. This isn’t complicated. That location allows you to build a freakin outlet mall in downtown Cleveland. I really think people don’t appreciate what this is going to do. People who live in Cleveland will use it and it’s going to be a draw for suburban shoppers, really the only way in today’s market that you can draw suburbanites into downtown shopping. This thing is going to work. I personally think it’s brilliant

(if this is off topic I apologize but) you're right, I don't appreciate it. I don't really get it, building a mall in 202x.

 

Who is this for? Suburbanites have their malls already. I'd imagine they would usually stick with what's there.

 

Is it for downtowners? If so, I think it would need to be easily accessible by some method other than car. Many downtown residents are either car-free or would like to be car-free. And if they already do have a car (like I did when I lived downtown), it's competing with the suburb options.

1 hour ago, Cavalier Attitude said:

(if this is off topic I apologize but) you're right, I don't appreciate it. I don't really get it, building a mall in 202x.

 

Who is this for? Suburbanites have their malls already. I'd imagine they would usually stick with what's there.

 

Is it for downtowners? If so, I think it would need to be easily accessible by some method other than car. Many downtown residents are either car-free or would like to be car-free. And if they already do have a car (like I did when I lived downtown), it's competing with the suburb options.

(One more time) An outlet mall is not the same as a regular suburban mall

39 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

(One more time) An outlet mall is not the same as a regular suburban mall

Sure but wouldn't it still have the problems I described? Who is it catering to?

My rough estimate is that the Green/Blue line stop is a hair above a quarter mile from the assumed entrance. I believe anything over a quarter mile and folks feel it's too far of a walk (sad, I know), but here's what I was able to come up with from georeferencing the rendering above. 

 

The purple are existing trolleys, orange - bus lines, and the lime green/blue line is the waterfront line. Additionally, the green dots are stops (current as of February last year so things may have changed some.)

 

 

Also added another photo that's just imagery - these parking lots are barely used outside of browns games, it looks like the muni lot isn't even full as it is.

 

Edited March 31, 20205 yr by GISguy

Per the press release, the target customers, the "3.8M within a 60 mile radius," (so mostly suburban/exurbanites) are not going to want to pay to park, nor do they want to sit in traffic for access/regress. They could go to their local mall instead. 

That's why this location is ideal.

Edited December 17, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

57 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Per the press release, the target customers, the "3.8M within a 60 mile radius," (so mostly suburban/exurbanites) are not going to want to pay to park, nor do they want to sit in traffic for access/regress. They could go to their local mall instead. 

That's why this location is ideal.

Why is this so hard for people to understand?! You’re exactly right

^^^^ Not disagreeing at all, but it’s tragic to know that people won’t walk 400yards. 

6 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said:

^^^^ Not disagreeing at all, but it’s tragic to know that people won’t walk 400yards. 

Have you seen people trying to park in the closest spot at the mall? People fight over it. Then proceed to walk everywhere INSIDE the mall. It’s a uniquely American phenomenon.

Edited December 17, 20195 yr by marty15

7 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said:

^^^^ Not disagreeing at all, but it’s tragic to know that people won’t walk 400yards. 

I think a lot of studies have shown that "walkability" for most people ends at a quarter mile. I guess this is why density is so important-you can get more "stuff" within a quarter mile and also have a denser public transit grid. Maybe that distance changes if you ad scooters or other smaller "vehicles" that are not really considered cars?

1 minute ago, marty15 said:

Have you seen people trying to park in the closest spot at the mall? People fight over it. Then proceed to walk everywhere INSIDE the mall. It’s a uniquely American phenomenon.

 

People also use valet at health clubs.  Lifetime Fitness Beachwood--I'm looking at you! 

1 hour ago, Terdolph said:

Sometimes as you get older you can't. 

 

You young wipper snappers may be surprised someday.

 

Things come out of the blue you would not have expected.

I am 56 and have peripheral neuropathy(they can't find out why I have it)in my feet and It is difficult for me to walk a lot but I still support the idea of walkability-if it gets too bad for people to walk then that is what handicapped parking spaces are for-for people who need to be close. Or ride services or other things. Most people can manage to walk a few blocks or more so-we should design for them and create alternative exceptions for those who can't(myself, I would not be able to walk more than a few blocks without some serious pain and cramping in my feet-but I am the exception really).

 

Hell nothing worse than having to go to Walmart, parking close, and end up having to walk half a mile or more total in that place just to shop lol.

 

*sorry if I shared too much personal info

Edited December 18, 20195 yr by Toddguy

So when will the Downtown Outlet Mall get it's own thread?

4 hours ago, Terdolph said:

It looks like some tracks are already there.  Can't the developer pitch in to extend the tracks a few hundred yards and bring it right to the front door?

 

Those are CSX-owned freight tracks as well as some property owned by Amtrak in case the city ever told it to move its Amtrak's existing station off city-owned property. They are Federal Railroad Administration regulated rights of way that are incompatible with a light-rail transit mode except in some very rare circumstances.

 

The east end of RTA's South Harbor light-rail station is 0.3 of a mile from the west end of the proposed outlet mall. The east end of RTA's Waterfront Line tracks are 0.15 miles from the west end of the proposed outlet mall.

 

The simplest solution might be to shorten the inbound (to Tower City) track by about 200 feet and lengthen the outbound track by about 200 feet so that a station platform can be built between the outbound track and South Marginal Road a little farther east than the Waterfront Line's existing South Harbor Station. This would put the station within 500 feet of the doors of the proposed Outlet Shopping Center.

 

This scenario might cost less than $5 million. And no, I don't expect the Outlet Shoppes company to pay for this -- even with a TIF -- not when they barely mention the presence of the Waterfront Line and not when their site plan proposes relocating South Marginal Road and expanding waterlines/sewers to accommodate the retail center and potential additional future development.

 

So here's some graphics....

 

EXISTING 

 

PROPOSED BUT WITHOUT LABELS

 

PROPOSED BUT WITH LABELS

Edited December 18, 20195 yr by KJP

When do you think they will start construction?  ! year? 2?   More?

12 minutes ago, simplythis said:

When do you think they will start construction?  ! year? 2?   More?

3 months after the next lake wind turbine study!

 

Extending the waterfront line to the edge makes so much sense; you could go from your condo/apartment in gateway or the flats to an outlet mall? Sign me up!

I don't know who frustrates me more....the person who asks another human being what the future will be or the human being who is so deluded about their own greatness to think that they could offer a concrete answer.  ? 

Edited December 18, 20195 yr by KJP

52 minutes ago, originaljbw said:

3 months after the next lake wind turbine study!

 

Extending the waterfront line to the edge makes so much sense; you could go from your condo/apartment in gateway or the flats to an outlet mall? Sign me up!

 

Or, you could just put an outlet mall in Tower City, next to a casino where outlet malls thrive throughout the rest of the country.   This would give transit access, and downtown residents retail within a close walk.  

1 hour ago, Cleburger said:

 

Or, you could just put an outlet mall in Tower City, next to a casino where outlet malls thrive throughout the rest of the country.   This would give transit access, and downtown residents retail within a close walk.  

They already tried this when Tower City was a retail hub and it failed. 

Oh, inlovewithCLE!

9 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

They already tried this when Tower City was a retail hub and it failed. 

 

The difference:   Tower City at that time did not have a casino attached to it, with built in patrons who also frequent outlet malls and food courts.    

On 12/17/2019 at 9:10 PM, KJP said:

 

Saw crews drilling into the pavement yesterday on the northeast side of the parking lot.  I presume it was related to the outlet mall.  Sorry, I couldn't get a pic in time.  

41 minutes ago, smimes said:

 

Saw crews drilling into the pavement yesterday on the northeast side of the parking lot.  I presume it was related to the outlet mall.  Sorry, I couldn't get a pic in time.  

 

 

Thanks. Apparently the leasing for the Outlet Mall is going quite well. Source couldn't give me any details than that right now.

Given their target audience, I think this project has the potential to do very well in that location.

As stated a while back, can we get this topic to have it's own thread?  I think it's had enough movement to warrant that.

Edited January 21, 20205 yr by cle_guy90