1 hour ago, Cavalier Attitude said:

These are just my personal observations, but younger people don't "do" retail much any more, because it requires going outside, dealing with people, and the prices/selection are usually worse than online. And nobody has money. There is also a lot of retail in the east and west suburbs already. Why would someone go here over Crocker/Legacy/Beachwood/whatever?

Sigh. As has been said multiple times here, outlet malls are actually GROWING while traditional retail is declining. We really need to stop looking at this as a traditional mall. It’s not

What actually makes an outlet mall an outlet mall? Outdoors and second-rate versions of stores? I don't get it, but it's not my investment. Hope it works out.

Off-shot discount outlets of premium brands. This isn't shoehorned by relying on people with a certain level of income compared to department stores and the like, which are dropping like flies. No one is going to travel from Rocky River simply go to Macy's nor a T-Mobile or AT&T store which you can find at just about every conventional mall or strip mall going, nor will any traffic coming through i90, but they may be far more inclined to visit something that has a product which is otherwise potentially an hours drive out to somewhere such as Aurora or has much higher novelty value. 

 

Outlet Malls themselves are changing too though and their concept in urban areas is still relatively infant. They are no longer just the place with name brands at discount prices in holiday resorts or out miles away from the city in far flung suburbs and rural areas. They are popping up in urban areas now. New Orleans Riverwalk has been a major success. Philly has added a lot of outlet stores to its newly renovated fashion mall downtown such as Nike, Levi's, Columbia amongst others. In other places like Kansas City the legends outlet is a massive development with bars, restaurants and entertainment with additional development to follow right by the Kansas Speedway and the Sporting KC MLS stadium and it has generated millions in tax dollars for the state of Kansas. 

 

I don't understand how anyone can look at this product and be so naive to think its just another mall, its clearly not, and if anything the potential major detractors of the project such as the design and the non retail aspects look far stronger than initially expected. Its not your traditional mall anchored by dying department stores and a gloomy food court. 

 

Sticking this concept in Tower City would be very brave. The business plan is heavily reliant on suburbanites and passing trade. Get in and out without the humdrum of downtown congestion. We don't have the tourism of NOLA or the population of Philly so there is obvious logic in the chosen location.

 

And at the end of the day also, this is otherwise just an empty parking lot at the moment.

 

Edited January 27, 20205 yr by snakebite

4 hours ago, Cavalier Attitude said:

These are just my personal observations, but younger people don't "do" retail much any more, because it requires going outside, dealing with people, and the prices/selection are usually worse than online. And nobody has money. There is also a lot of retail in the east and west suburbs already. Why would someone go here over Crocker/Legacy/Beachwood/whatever?

 

If you want to consider this from a suburbanite lens (which seems relevant given the target demographic):

 

• Downtown is closer to south side suburbanites than the outer ring suburbs on the east and west side extremities
• A distinct type of retail would still draw from people in Mentor and Elyria as much as from closer locales when the direct alternatives are watered down versions in Lodi and Aurora versus a sexy lakefront location that has views of downtown with direct highway access and free parking.

Not to mention that downtown is a central location to all of greater Cleveland (naturally).

I just hope this encourages the city and stakeholders to keep working on bridging the CBD to north of the tracks. 

I can see this increasing local tourism to places like the rock hall or other downtown events, but not foot traffic for downtown proper.  For a suburbanite it's a "let's go to the rock hall and then hit the outlets on the way back". Its another draw to move the needle to give some people a reason to get into the area.

I wonder if any incentive or fare discount could be implented by RTA and the development to encourage train usage to this development. I'm just not sure how it would work, parking validation discounts are simple to implement but transit fare discounts due to shopping there would have to get creative. I would love to see some sort of collaboration though. This would allow the suburbanites, those who choose not to drive and those who can't afford to drive a chance to enjoy this while boosting ridership. I believe tourist would hop on the train from North Coast Harbor station to here if they were informed enough. 

6 hours ago, snakebite said:

I don't understand how anyone can look at this product and be so naive to think its just another mall, its clearly not, and if anything the potential major detractors of the project such as the design and the non retail aspects look far stronger than initially expected. Its not your traditional mall anchored by dying department stores and a gloomy food court. 

 

Sticking this concept in Tower City would be very brave. The business plan is heavily reliant on suburbanites and passing trade. Get in and out without the humdrum of downtown congestion. We don't have the tourism of NOLA or the population of Philly so there is obvious logic in the chosen location.

 

And at the end of the day also, this is otherwise just an empty parking lot at the moment.

 

Amen, A-freakin-men. The opposition is mystifying to me 

18 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said:

Why? An upscale outlet mall in the city center should do well here

 

That's how Tower City started out.

18 hours ago, Cavalier Attitude said:

These are just my personal observations, but younger people don't "do" retail much any more, because it requires going outside, dealing with people, and the prices/selection are usually worse than online. And nobody has money. There is also a lot of retail in the east and west suburbs already. Why would someone go here over Crocker/Legacy/Beachwood/whatever?

It's been discussed ad nauseam at this point, but as a fellow millennial I don't want to go/drive to the east or west suburbs I'd rather have something accessible via transit and or my bike. There's something to be said for actually trying on clothes - for instance, Gap sizing between pant styles is drastically different. I'd rather go to a store and try them on instead of playing return roulette.

 

I'd love for local retail mixed with a national brand or two to be in the CBD, but to have access to other national brands would be nice. Sure, outlet clothes aren't necessarily as durable as the flagship store goods, but I'm not about to drive to Aurora or Lodi to get some cheap pants.

14 hours ago, infrafreak said:

 

If you want to consider this from a suburbanite lens (which seems relevant given the target demographic):

 

• Downtown is closer to south side suburbanites than the outer ring suburbs on the east and west side extremities
• A distinct type of retail would still draw from people in Mentor and Elyria as much as from closer locales when the direct alternatives are watered down versions in Lodi and Aurora versus a sexy lakefront location that has views of downtown with direct highway access and free parking.

Not to mention that downtown is a central location to all of greater Cleveland (naturally).

 

It's not central to all of Greater Cleveland, though.   It's on the northern periphery for obvious geographic reasons.

36 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

That's how Tower City started out.

 

Tower City started out as standard high end chain retail, not outlets.

18 hours ago, Cavalier Attitude said:

These are just my personal observations, but younger people don't "do" retail much any more, because it requires going outside, dealing with people, and the prices/selection are usually worse than online. And nobody has money. There is also a lot of retail in the east and west suburbs already. Why would someone go here over Crocker/Legacy/Beachwood/whatever?

 

I tend to agree with you about the tendencies of younger people to avoid crowds and random interaction.  It should be noted though that that’s not consistent with the idea that they are actively seeking more dense living arrangements, as is sometimes claimed here.

 

Aurora Farms or Lodi would be great examples of outlet malls.  My daughter’s aunts shop there a lot and they are the kinds of places where they are bringing back multiple large bags from different stores.

 

My guess is the percentage of people (that have other options) willing to do this on transit is in the single digits.

24 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

I tend to agree with you about the tendencies of younger people to avoid crowds and random interaction.  It should be noted though that that’s not consistent with the idea that they are actively seeking more dense living arrangements, as is sometimes claimed here.

 

Aurora Farms or Lodi would be great examples of outlet malls.  My daughter’s aunts shop there a lot and they are the kinds of places where they are bringing back multiple large bags from different stores.

 

My guess is the percentage of people (that have other options) willing to do this on transit is in the single digits.

 

Which is probably correct. I think that the Waterfront Line would benefit primarily from workers traveling to/from the outlet mall. Same situation as the Red Line and the airport.

1 hour ago, StapHanger said:

 

Tower City started out as standard high end chain retail, not outlets.

Thank you. Why is this so freakin hard for people around here to understand 

While the South Harbor Waterfront station is further up, the tracks actually end here. Would love to see this extended into this development. It wouldn’t be much further. They could do what the Van Aken development attempted to do. 

Edited January 28, 20205 yr by marty15

It seems like a no-brainer to extend the line a few hundred yards.

I'm sorry if this has been discussed but will the city create and north/ south connection to this site that won't requie a car?  It seems like a good idea to try to make at least 2 connections to the city grid to the south. 

2 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

That's how Tower City started out.

That era of Tower City had around 18,000 less residents living downtown and had the disadvantage of not having free parking, like this development should have. 

Edited January 28, 20205 yr by MyPhoneDead

18 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

It seems like a no-brainer to extend the line a few hundred yards.

Or CPC could recommend that they build this complex on that front parking lot. Just swapping spaces essentially. Would make too much sense i suppose. 

28 minutes ago, marty15 said:

While the South Harbor Waterfront station is further up, the tracks actually end here. Would love to see this extended into this development. It wouldn’t be much further. They could do what the Van Aken development attempted to do. 

Wouldn't it be easier to just move the development to have the entrance sit closer to the station?

9 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

That era of Tower City had around 18,000 less residents living downtown and had the disadvantage of not having free parking, like this development should have. 

One has to wonder if Tower City and Galleria came along too early.  

5 minutes ago, skiwest said:

One has to wonder if Tower City and Galleria came along too early.  

I believe so. But I also believe that the Cleveland area cannibalizes themselves by staying 53 separate municipalities and trying to one up the neighboring city. The area over built retail by being greedy and wanting to be the destination area and now we are seeing the fallout from it. If they chose to help with the focus of Cleveland being the epicenter for things I believe both would be around still in a similar form. 

1 minute ago, MyPhoneDead said:

The area over built retail by being greedy and wanting to be the destination area and now we are seeing the fallout from it.

 

Agree, but how is this proposed development any different?  (please no one say because they are outlet stores!) It's a one use structure, it goes against the traditional development pattern we usually praise in a forum like this. 

1 minute ago, viscomi said:

 

Agree, but how is this proposed development any different?  (please no one say because they are outlet stores!) It's a one use structure, it goes against the traditional development pattern we usually praise in a forum like this. 

Easy. This is in Cleveland proper. It brings jobs to the CITY, not the suburbs. It has a legitimate chance to be a regional draw (bringing more people from our sprawled out area into the center city, which was supposed to be the point) and so on. By this being Urban Ohio, I’d think that most of us support things that are net positives for our urban centers. This is a positive. The area is overdeveloped in retail but the city itself is underdeveloped. And the criticisms about this are some of the same that was said about Steelyard. They were wrong then and they’re wrong now. It’s also interesting to me that many of the people who oppose this stuff come from neighborhoods/areas that always had it. I’m born and raised Cleveland proper lifer. As I’ve said numerous times on this forum, we can’t say we want people to come back to the city but we only want them to come the way we want them to, do the things that we want them to do and only in the developments that look the way we think it should. I really think some of you around here would rather this thing stay a parking lot than for it to have something beneficial to the city that you don’t like. But in the same breath you say you love the city (and I’m not necessarily directing that to the poster I’m responding to. That’s a general point based on the attitude I see around here about this and other developments that don’t fit exactly what the prevailing voices like). That’s ridiculous to me. Nothing in development is a no brainer but when u look at where they’re going to build this at, the quality of stores they’re bringing in, the fact that it’s currently a parking lot and that it could potentially help the tourist attractions that we have across the street, this is as close to a no brainer as you can get in this. No one seemed to learn the lessons from their incorrect criticisms of Steelyard

5 minutes ago, viscomi said:

 

Agree, but how is this proposed development any different?  (please no one say because they are outlet stores!) It's a one use structure, it goes against the traditional development pattern we usually praise in a forum like this. 

(I know you didn't want to hear it) in an area that's growing at a rapid pace it's a different way to approach retail in our area that we haven't seen. This may be the type of retail model that we need, retail is having a big shift. We won't know for sure how successful it will be but we need to try it out to find out. This is the most logical area to place it as well, right off the freeway (where most outlets are in Ohio), next to tourist locations (another big spending demographic) and is accessible for ALL people. That's the biggest key point. The suburban shopping areas now are getting placed further and further out and is less and less accessible to people without transportation or is just not worth the trip to people in a digital world. Less traffic due to accessibility means less business, this has the location to be accessible to all through transit and car. A transit oriented car development is what I call it. Something truly unique for our area. Sorry for the long response lol.

27 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

I believe so. But I also believe that the Cleveland area cannibalizes themselves by staying 53 separate municipalities and trying to one up the neighboring city. The area over built retail by being greedy and wanting to be the destination area and now we are seeing the fallout from it. If they chose to help with the focus of Cleveland being the epicenter for things I believe both would be around still in a similar form. 

59* just in Cuyahoga

On 12/17/2019 at 9:10 PM, KJP said:

 

Those are CSX-owned freight tracks as well as some property owned by Amtrak in case the city ever told it to move its Amtrak's existing station off city-owned property. They are Federal Railroad Administration regulated rights of way that are incompatible with a light-rail transit mode except in some very rare circumstances.

 

The east end of RTA's South Harbor light-rail station is 0.3 of a mile from the west end of the proposed outlet mall. The east end of RTA's Waterfront Line tracks are 0.15 miles from the west end of the proposed outlet mall.

 

The simplest solution might be to shorten the inbound (to Tower City) track by about 200 feet and lengthen the outbound track by about 200 feet so that a station platform can be built between the outbound track and South Marginal Road a little farther east than the Waterfront Line's existing South Harbor Station. This would put the station within 500 feet of the doors of the proposed Outlet Shopping Center.

 

This scenario might cost less than $5 million. And no, I don't expect the Outlet Shoppes company to pay for this -- even with a TIF -- not when they barely mention the presence of the Waterfront Line and not when their site plan proposes relocating South Marginal Road and expanding waterlines/sewers to accommodate the retail center and potential additional future development.

 

So here's some graphics....

 

EXISTING 

 

PROPOSED BUT WITHOUT LABELS

 

PROPOSED BUT WITH LABELS

This is about to sound like the most stereotypical American suggestion but with the financial situation with RTA would it be easier to run a paratransit sized bus from South Harbor station to the development? Another option is the trolley can loop down, stop and the South Harbor station, circle around the outlet and continue it's normal route back up. Saves RTA money that could go else where and transit riders are easily transported to the mall, especially useful in the winter.

4 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

It's not central to all of Greater Cleveland, though.   It's on the northern periphery for obvious geographic reasons.

 

Not as the crows fly, no.  But crows pay full price for their jeans, so they aren't interested in outlet malls.  It is central to the region's transportation system, though.

Just curious, where do downtown residents shop for clothing now?  Is there anything downtown other than Gieger's?

^ At my time of life I have a full wardrobe, so don’t buy much and only buy quality, so I use both Geigers and Brooks Brothers. If I need to get anything cheaper for the kids, Old Navy at Steelyard or one of the sneaker stores in Tower City. 
 

There’s also that time-warp menswear store next to Geigers, plus another on Superior by the Hyatt. It’s not 1983 so I don’t use either. There’s also another tucked away on East 2nd that I picked a dress shirt up from once. 
 

I get alterations done at the tailors shop on East 14th. He also does bespoke and made to measure stuff. Too Italianate for my style, but he seems to do well. 

Edited January 28, 20205 yr by roman totale XVII

1 hour ago, inlovewithCLE said:

The area is overdeveloped in retail but the city itself is underdeveloped.

I agree. Although I was using this to argue against this project. It sounds like other people think that there is still a market for this, because it is in Cleveland proper and should be easy to access for the southern suburbs?

13 minutes ago, skiwest said:

Just curious, where do downtown residents shop for clothing now?  Is there anything downtown other than Gieger's?

 

I have to drive to the steelyard Marshall's or Target.  If we're getting fancy, I have to drive out to Beachwood for the mall/Legacy Village.  Having the outlet mall at least close to downtown gives a much wider variety of options without having to drive 30 min to the burbs.  

While the apparent target audience are the suburban/exurban residents, it will be close enough to also provide CBD residents with shopping options. It will also provide jobs and increase the city's coffers.

2 hours ago, viscomi said:

 

Agree, but how is this proposed development any different?  (please no one say because they are outlet stores!) It's a one use structure, it goes against the traditional development pattern we usually praise in a forum like this. 

I agree, Van Aken is literally a train ride away from downtown. This region is still oversaturated with retail that is concentrated in the suburbs, and the fact that Van Aken was just built i dont see how this will be successful bringing suburbanites downtown. 

While I’m not a big fan of the idea, and think it could have a negative impact on future retail downtown, something that I think is still a long ways away, when looking at the site and how far down it is on the muni lot you really see how this is not really downtown at all. Nobody is going to walk to this. This site is basically equivalent to the reintegration center on East 30th near the post office. 
 

I do find the south side suburbs argument a little odd considering they have the best access to existing outlet malls. 

^ it could have a negative impact on development downtown if its an outdated old highway roadside outlet mall style, or it could attract development, if done very nicely, as in with actual architecture. like for example the empire outlets mall on staten island. attractive looking is possible! i would prefer it be in midtown/opportunity corridor for cle, but i think its a pretty good spot.

 

https://empireoutlets.nyc/

 

Based on the comments about the "outlet malls", I feel I need to interject. Outlets now are regular stores with slightly more clearance shipped in from other stores who can't sell their clearance or factory stores where they sell inferior merchandise at lower prices. Based on the leasing outline that was shared...there is NOTHING upscale about these stores, which I suppose is a good thing for typical American tourists and inner city/suburban residents that will be shopping there. 

For all of the reasons mentioned upthread, this is the perfect location for achieving the city and developer's goals; access/regress/location/target audience/free parking/jobs/city revenue.

Edited January 28, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

11 hours ago, E Rocc said:

It's not central to all of Greater Cleveland, though.   It's on the northern periphery for obvious geographic reasons.

 

(Whoops, this turned into a mind dump of my thoughts on this entire thread lately:)

 

I appreciate the different opinion you bring in many threads. I don't disagree with you that this is at the northern extremity of possible siting.

 

Sure, if you want to open a traditional outlet mall, this could be much more central if it was in Independence or maybe build it on the field where Richfield Colliseum once stood.

 

If this was meant to be transformative by being more of a mixed use development with architectural standards and good restauranteurs and entertainment operators, I think this makes much more sense in the urban core.

 

This in the northern periphery and at the edge of the metro in the same way that there is no "South Detroit", or the equivalent to other peer cities of Buffalo and Chicago, or even the country's major coastal cities (East Miami Beach?)

 

The geographic center in this case is different than the cultural center. Cleveland is the nucleus around which the urban core (or donut) is developed around. In both our hub-and-spoke transit system as well as our highway infrastructure, they all generally lead to Cleveland.

 

In so many cases, retail and restaurant operators from out of state serve our metro by planting a flag on the far extremeties of the eastern and western suburbs (Trader Joes, I'm looking at you). I was skeptical when this project was first proposed on the north side of the shoreway. But if this is meant to be a flagship property within the region and has a draw beyond shopping, I think downtown is a very central strategy when you're not opening multiple locations to serve each end of the metro by their own separate, convenient location.

 

When you consider Top Golf, they certainly operate under the "1 location per metro" strategy and see themselves as a premiere destination. Their decision to locate in Independence was met with some controversy on Urban Ohio. The great highway access, visibility, and VPD numbers backed their choice. Other people want a cosmopolitan site search.

 

The corner of the muni lot is by no means in the heart of downtown, but it is in the heart of Greater Cleveland, which radiates out from the city. In my eyes, the transit access is a happy accident here, but the highway access and proximity to the north coast tourist destinations, CBD working population, and location less than 30 minutes from most suburbs will beat the drive to Lodi or Aurora for many. Certainly if those two competitors are to the south in the far west and east, far north and center makes sense to me.

 

I don't disagree with your sentiment, I just wanted to explain my viewpoint when I wrote my original comment.

Edited January 29, 20205 yr by infrafreak
forgot to type "Independence"

16 hours ago, X said:

 

Not as the crows fly, no.  But crows pay full price for their jeans, so they aren't interested in outlet malls.  It is central to the region's transportation system, though.

 

Independence is at least as central to the freeway system, 

15 hours ago, JSC216 said:

While I’m not a big fan of the idea, and think it could have a negative impact on future retail downtown, something that I think is still a long ways away, when looking at the site and how far down it is on the muni lot you really see how this is not really downtown at all. Nobody is going to walk to this. This site is basically equivalent to the reintegration center on East 30th near the post office. 
 

I do find the south side suburbs argument a little odd considering they have the best access to existing outlet malls. 

 

That's a very good point.   Aurora Farms is pretty much an institution to serious SE suburban shoppers.  I would assume Lodi is to SW as well as it is directly off 71.

 

1 hour ago, E Rocc said:

 

Independence is at least as central to the freeway system, 

 

That's a very good point.   Aurora Farms is pretty much an institution to serious SE suburban shoppers.  I would assume Lodi is to SW as well as it is directly off 71.

 

I was in Lodi a month ago.  Desolation city. The majority of the stores are vacant. I don't see them lasting another year

2 minutes ago, Growth Mindset said:

I was in Lodi a month ago.  Desolation city. The majority of the stores are vacant. I don't see them lasting another year

 

Probably a little *too* far out.    Aurora is still strong AFAIK.

 

Maybe the lakeshore one can buy their train.

^ speaking of siting, can someone give us a quick rundown of other comparable type ne ohio area or ohio outlet malls? isnt there something between cle and akron-canton? i can only think of the outlet mall on I-71 between columbus and cinci, which was a big deal when it opened.

6 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

^ speaking of siting, can someone give us a quick rundown of other comparable type ne ohio area or ohio outlet malls? isnt there something between cle and akron-canton? i can only think of the outlet mall on I-71 between columbus and cinci, which was a big deal when it opened.

 The two posts just before yours - there is one at Lodi at the Rt 83 interchange of I-71, and there is one in Aurora on Rt 43, not particularly close to any freeway.

^ whoops thx that was for infra on the previous page.

 

so two is it — with one doing well and one dying off? 

 

so that sounds like great timing for this lakefront outlet mall. and perhaps helps explain the site choice a bit too.

 

i think this plan is sited in a very clever spot that will appeal to residents and visitors alike.

There’s also one closer to Columbus on 71 at Sunbury that seems to be doing well. Tangier Outlets. Probably cannibalized Lodi. It’s much newer.

Edited February 4, 20205 yr by marty15

Isn't there an outlet mall near cincinnati somewhere in the Mason area near King's Island.

Does anyone know what that mall is called?

32 minutes ago, simplythis said:

Isn't there an outlet mall near cincinnati somewhere in the Mason area near King's Island.

Does anyone know what that mall is called?

Tangier Outlets in Jeffersonville.  Off I 71 near Washington Court House.

https://www.tangeroutlet.com/jeffersonville

 

44 minutes ago, simplythis said:

Isn't there an outlet mall near cincinnati somewhere in the Mason area near King's Island.

Does anyone know what that mall is called?

 

There's Jeffersonville off I-71 but the closer one to Mason/Kings Island is actually the Cincinnati Premium Outlets: https://www.premiumoutlets.com/outlet/cincinnati