February 25, 20205 yr 11 hours ago, NorthShore647 said: Is Cleveland-owned property along the Shoreway a good site for an outlet mall? Some members of City Council are wary Robert Higgs - Mon. Feb. 24, 2020 https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2020/02/is-cleveland-owned-property-along-the-shoreway-a-good-site-for-an-outlet-mall-some-members-of-city-council-are-wary.html "Councilman Matt Zone told cleveland.com that putting retail on the site is a bad idea. The property is too valuable to use for a shopping center, he said, especially if the city does more to develop its lakefront." "Even if the population is dense enough, he’d rather not see valuable land that could be part of a lakefront development plan be used for something so “auto-dependent.” #1. Dealing with the city of Cleveland that may be the biggest "if" in the country. There has been NO PEEP of plans in that area, no one was thinking about that land, stop pretending. #2. It's off the Shoreway of course it's auto dependent. Population was a concern but your job is to make your city a draw, with it being off the freeway if you make your city a major draw people from out of the region will support in droves. Put your energy into that instead of potentially blocking a development for land that was forgotten about.
February 25, 20205 yr 1 hour ago, MyPhoneDead said: "Councilman Matt Zone told cleveland.com that putting retail on the site is a bad idea. The property is too valuable to use for a shopping center, he said, especially if the city does more to develop its lakefront." "Even if the population is dense enough, he’d rather not see valuable land that could be part of a lakefront development plan be used for something so “auto-dependent.” #1. Dealing with the city of Cleveland that may be the biggest "if" in the country. There has been NO PEEP of plans in that area, no one was thinking about that land, stop pretending. #2. It's off the Shoreway of course it's auto dependent. Population was a concern but your job is to make your city a draw, with it being off the freeway if you make your city a major draw people from out of the region will support in droves. Put your energy into that instead of potentially blocking a development for land that was forgotten about. Wow the PeeDee must not want to offend any advertisers. They left out a prominent part of his point as per WKYC:https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/developer-released-plans-for-outlet-mall-on-cleveland-lakefront-city-officials-saying-no-thanks/95-8fa1623b-b740-4f34-b3ed-398010d75fe5 "All you need to do is head about 40 miles south of Cleveland to Lodi, and go to their retail big box outlet," Ward 15 Councilman Matt Zone told 3News. "That is maybe 30 years old, and it's under 75% occupancy. Retail is changing." Zone contends many more people do their shopping online now, instead of heading to the brick and mortars. He added many more people on the council agree with him.
February 25, 20205 yr No matter what side you're on regarding this proposal, this all points to just how worthless the Jane Campbell era Lakefront Plan really was. The areas suitable for retail should've already been mapped out. The funds for utilities should've already been allotted for projects that meet an already set and acceptable criteria. Public access would be an integral component and not just an afterthought. Nope. It's still the wild west in many ways with no discernible plan in place. Edited February 25, 20205 yr by surfohio
February 25, 20205 yr I like Matt Zone, but why is the city council trying to tell an established retail development company what is viable? The whole point of this location is that it is NOT Lodi. We are not giving away paradise beach here... I drive past this location every day, and never even considered it a potential development location for the next decade.
February 25, 20205 yr 33 minutes ago, E Rocc said: Wow the PeeDee must not want to offend any advertisers. They left out a prominent part of his point as per WKYC:https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/developer-released-plans-for-outlet-mall-on-cleveland-lakefront-city-officials-saying-no-thanks/95-8fa1623b-b740-4f34-b3ed-398010d75fe5 "All you need to do is head about 40 miles south of Cleveland to Lodi, and go to their retail big box outlet," Ward 15 Councilman Matt Zone told 3News. "That is maybe 30 years old, and it's under 75% occupancy. Retail is changing." Zone contends many more people do their shopping online now, instead of heading to the brick and mortars. He added many more people on the council agree with him. By this logic he really could care less if retail returned to the city proper or his ward which is dumb considering that's what can attract people that may not have had their eye on or known about an area, which could lead to future residents, which leads to a more prospering ward.
February 25, 20205 yr 17 minutes ago, surfohio said: No matter what side you're on regarding this proposal, this all points to just how worthless the Jane Campbell era Lakefront Plan really was. The areas suitable for retail should've already been mapped out. The funds for utilities should've already been allotted for projects that meet an already set and acceptable criteria. Public access would be an integral component and not just an afterthought. Nope. It's still the wild west in many ways with no discernible plan in place. In all honesty, you could have simply posted that first sentence and left out "Lakefront Plan". Whenever I get too irked with Hizzoner I remember Calamity Jane and Dennis The Menace. Edited February 25, 20205 yr by E Rocc
February 25, 20205 yr 33 minutes ago, E Rocc said: Wow the PeeDee must not want to offend any advertisers. They left out a prominent part of his point as per WKYC:https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/developer-released-plans-for-outlet-mall-on-cleveland-lakefront-city-officials-saying-no-thanks/95-8fa1623b-b740-4f34-b3ed-398010d75fe5 "All you need to do is head about 40 miles south of Cleveland to Lodi, and go to their retail big box outlet," Ward 15 Councilman Matt Zone told 3News. "That is maybe 30 years old, and it's under 75% occupancy. Retail is changing." Zone contends many more people do their shopping online now, instead of heading to the brick and mortars. He added many more people on the council agree with him. The Lodi mall is dead, agreed. But that didn't stop them from building a brand new outlet mall North of Columbus, Tanger Outlets. Will it survive? No, probably the same trajectory as almost all other outlet malls. Also, why mention Lodi and not Grove City which appears to be doing fine. He cherry picked a bad one.
February 25, 20205 yr 1 minute ago, E Rocc said: In all honesty, you could have simply posted that first sentence and left out "Lakefront Plan". Whenever I get too irked with Hizzoner I remember Calamity Jane and Dennis The Menace. She was married to a renowned urban planner and somehow still couldn't get a plan in place. It's inexplicable really!
February 25, 20205 yr ...and the developer is investing $100M, without asking for major subsidies or handouts! One would think that with that kind of investment, in a city struggling with retail in its core, Horizon has done their market research and due diligence. City Council would instead prefer it remain an isolated, non-revenue producing parking lot. Unbelievable! Edited February 25, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder
February 25, 20205 yr 46 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said: ...and the developer is investing $100M, without asking for subsidies or handouts! One would think that with that kind of investment, in a city struggling with retail in its core, Horizon has done their market research and due diligence. City Council would instead prefer it remain an isolated, non-revenue producing parking lot. Unbelievable! Read the articles again. The developer was quoted where he literally asked for public subsidy. Quote “We’ve never built an outlet center that didn’t get government assistance for the reason that it really is different than other retail,” he said, stressing that the company expects the mall to attract not only downtown residents but also tourists, convention attendees, visiting families of patients at major hospitals, families of college students and Northeast Ohio residents who do much of their outlet shopping in other states today. “Every place is different,” Skoien said of public incentives for outlet malls. “We’ve had rebates of sales tax. We’ve had rebates of property tax. We’ve had direct grants, and they’re all across the board. … Most municipal officials and economic-development folks understand the difference between building this and a Walmart or a Costco or something.”
February 25, 20205 yr 1 hour ago, E Rocc said: Wow the PeeDee must not want to offend any advertisers. They left out a prominent part of his point as per WKYC:https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/developer-released-plans-for-outlet-mall-on-cleveland-lakefront-city-officials-saying-no-thanks/95-8fa1623b-b740-4f34-b3ed-398010d75fe5 Well, Zone and McCormick do bring up good points. Does anyone have a ballpark idea of how much the required infrastructure improvements will cost? And frankly I'm a little perplexed as to why the developer hasn't been in constant contact with McCormick. He said he had no idea about this! Crazy. Here's hoping this is not blind obstructionism. Who knows. Maybe it's the beginning of something constructive; that will end up making the project more viable and part of a more cohesive overall strategy.
February 25, 20205 yr Author Some numbers thrown out there are "millions" and "$10 million." I haven't seen any hard numbers. There needs to be sewer lines and possibly a sewer pump station (like the one at Flats East Bank) to lift the flow up into the sewer system below the downtown street grid. But this needs to be done regardless of whether Horizon's outlet mall is built or Matt Zone's wet dream of a mixed use development. So, to put those infrastructure investments all on the outlet mall is disingenuous and unfair. In fact, this whole campaign by Matt Zone is disingenuous and unfair. Like I've said, I've never shopped at an outlet mall and I doubt I ever will. But the avoidance of facts, heavy-handedness and overstepping of expertise here makes me wonder what is really going on here. Why is Matt Zone so hell-bent against this? Does he have a real estate developer friend/contributor waiting in the wings with a competing retail/mixed-use project downtown? Politicians almost never do things of their own volition. They do things because someone else has given reason (ie some form of political backing -- promise of votes, campaign money, future job, etc). So who has prompted Matt Zone to care this strongly about something that's not even in his ward?? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 25, 20205 yr 11 minutes ago, surfohio said: Well, Zone and McCormick do bring up good points. Does anyone have a ballpark idea of how much the required infrastructure improvements will cost? And frankly I'm a little perplexed as to why the developer hasn't been in constant contact with McCormick. He said he had no idea about this! Crazy. Here's hoping this is not blind obstructionism. Who knows. Maybe it's the beginning of something constructive; that will end up making the project more viable and part of a more cohesive overall strategy. Sure seems like blind obstructionism, at least on Zone’s part. He just doesn’t want icky retail. What’s mind boggling to me is that he thinks there’s going to be some grand plan to develop the muni lot. The muni lot is separated from the rest of downtown by the highway, essentially. As long as that continues to be the case, forget about it. Zone would be ok with this land being empty for another 15-20 years waiting on his ideal situation, which is ridiculous to me. This is a multimillion dollar retail development, in a city that needs it, in a downtown that needs it, and something that actually has the chance to be a regional draw. And people are making the same arguments here that they did against Steelyard (and they were wrong then too). People never learn a damn thing from anything
February 25, 20205 yr 1 minute ago, KJP said: Some numbers thrown out there are "millions" and "$10 million." I haven't seen any hard numbers. There needs to be sewer lines and possibly a sewer pump station (like the one at Flats East Bank) to lift the flow up into the sewer system below the downtown street grid. But this needs to be done regardless of whether Horizon's outlet mall is built or Matt Zone's wet dream of a mixed use development. So, to put those infrastructure investments all on the outlet mall is disingenuous and unfair. In fact, this whole campaign by Matt Zone is disingenuous and unfair. Like I've said, I've never shopped at an outlet mall and I doubt I ever will. But the avoidance of facts, heavy-handedness and overstepping of expertise here makes me wonder what is really going on here. Why is Matt Zone so hell-bent against this? Does he have a real estate developer friend/contributor waiting in the wings with a competing retail/mixed-use project downtown? Politicians almost never do things of their own volition. They do things because someone else has given reason (ie some form of political backing -- promise of votes, campaign money, future job, etc). So who has prompted Matt Zone to care this strongly about something that's not even in his ward?? He should be called out on this. If he’s willing to shut down a $100 MILLION dollar development then he should have to explain what the alternative is, not something in the abstract but something concrete. If he’s willing to shut down a $100 million development without any real alternative then he should have to answer to the citizens of the city for that
February 25, 20205 yr 14 minutes ago, KJP said: Why is Matt Zone so hell-bent against this? Does he have a real estate developer friend/contributor waiting in the wings with a competing retail/mixed-use project downtown? Politicians almost never do things of their own volition. They do things because someone else has given reason (ie some form of political backing -- promise of votes, campaign money, future job, etc). So who has prompted Matt Zone to care this strongly about something that's not even in his ward?? Hmm. I did think that his "mixed use" comment was a bit telling. He's an urban planner, but then again so was "Disastrous" Dona Brady lol. Maybe Zone has some intel on an Elon Musk dual proposal for hyperloop and burying the Shoreway.
February 25, 20205 yr 3 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said: #2. It's off the Shoreway of course it's auto dependent. For suburban folks, yes, inevitably; but couldn't the downtown circulator 'trollies' could easily add the outlet mall to their routes? Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
February 25, 20205 yr Author 8 minutes ago, Dougal said: For suburban folks, yes, inevitably; but couldn't the downtown circulator 'trollies' could easily add the outlet mall to their routes? It's on the route of the 9/12 trolley, but that operates only during rush hours http://www.riderta.com/routes/ninetwelve "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 25, 20205 yr Normally I'd let these things slip, but Zone been mouthing all over social media and every media outlet so I created a twitter account for myself specifically to challenge him on this and 'lo behold, he ignored me.
February 25, 20205 yr Nepotism gone wild (his whole damn family is/was on the public teet). Looks like Matt Zone is looking for campaign contributions. He's learned well from his parents, both also members of the council. Edited February 25, 20205 yr by TBideon
February 25, 20205 yr Maybe if Matt can tell us about the long line of other developers waiting behind the Horizon Group to scoop up this property as well as how he believes the city are in a position to reject all these potential tax dollars and job opportunities then I'll cut him some slack. Heck he can even tell me he told me so when that Fortune 500 HQ and Apple Store gets built on the lot in 2040. Just stick to putting on Browns gear and picking up litter to earn votes Matt. Utterly spineless.
February 25, 20205 yr 10 minutes ago, TBideon said: Nepotism gone wild (his whole damn family is/was on the public teet). Looks like Matt Zone is looking for campaign contributions. He's learned well from his parents, both also members of the council. I asked him at first about who else fancied buying up some empty land that lies empty much of the year except when Browns fans get drunk before games. He ignored that and continued liking posts from people back slapping him for opposing the proposal. Gutless isn't the word. bUt ToWeR CiTy!!!! Edited February 25, 20205 yr by snakebite
February 25, 20205 yr Yeah, this is essentially no mans land the way it’s boxed in. Zone should channel his energy to pushing for the Shoreway to be turned into a Boulevard from Deadman’s to East 9th. So that stretch could foster residential and more mixed use structures. If anything, this project has the potential to jump start spin off development down there. And yes, I remember all the doomsayers before Steelyard was built. It’s fully occupied, minus the Best Buy spot.
February 25, 20205 yr It's disgusting that these people being on the take can have such a negative impact on the city and those who could benefit from and are in need of jobs. And they wonder why there's a move to reduce the size of council and their salaries. Edited February 25, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder
February 25, 20205 yr 22 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said: It's disgusting that these people being on the take can have such a negative impact on the city and those who could benefit from and are in need of jobs. And they wonder why there's a move to reduce the size of council and their salaries. Agreed. I didn’t support that but it’s obvious why a lot of people do
February 25, 20205 yr Can we cool it with the insults to politicians that have differing views than you? They may have very legitimate reasons for not supporting a development (count me in the camp of those unhappy with the idea of a lakefront outlet mall), and their jobs can be difficult enough with people constantly berating them or calling them disgusting. Policy debates are one thing, but I bet we will never get any good politicians in office if good people are scared away from running because of the vitriol being thrown about.
February 26, 20205 yr You guys are brutal! I don't think this is as cut and dry as some are all making it. I'm glad we have elected officials looking into the full impact which includes some long term planning. Let's see what comes of the upfront infrastructure talk as well as a legit end of life discussion because we have to be honest with ourselves that single use mall complexes are extremely fragile. We have the luxury of being able to see these same scenarios play out the past 40 years and they almost never end well. Mayday posted a link to an article in the retail thread that explored a concept that I mentioned up-thread about building stable, easy to retool structures the traditional way. https://www.strongtowns.org/curbside-chat-1/2015/12/22/traditional-development Of particular importance in the video is the part about later needing public grant money to deal with the fall of the complex i.e. large sums to demolish the structure. We have to be more conscience of the liabilities we are taking on long term not just the immediate impact.
February 26, 20205 yr That's what you're taking away from this conversation? The city has been paying this guy and his family's bills for generations now, and in response he's creating obstacles to revenue generation. Calling out disgusting behavior is not disgusting.
February 26, 20205 yr "We have to be more conscience of the liabilities we are taking on long term not just the immediate impact." As stated upthread, let's see if these politicians can come up with AND execute a better, more comprehensive, revenue & job producing development plan for this parcel, in the middle of the Shoreway and RR tracks; a decision approved by politicians many decades ago. Edited February 26, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder
February 26, 20205 yr I understand the hesitation of the project from city officials. NEO is littered with dead retail centers, and the malls continue to decline. New retail has only cannibalized other retail. Traditional/physical retail will continue to decline. What is the shelf life of this project?
February 26, 20205 yr Downtown retail has been littered with failed mall attempts, and even "outlet" centers are on shaky footing unless you command premium outlets and can court Simon to construct such a center (not happening for downtown Cleveland). They prefer rural interstate locations in between or near major population centers with wealth.
February 26, 20205 yr 10 hours ago, seicer said: Downtown retail has been littered with failed mall attempts, and even "outlet" centers are on shaky footing unless you command premium outlets and can court Simon to construct such a center (not happening for downtown Cleveland). They prefer rural interstate locations in between or near major population centers with wealth. Yet, most of the people on this forum continue to clamor for downtown retail. Go figure?
February 26, 20205 yr I don't agree with the sentiment, but there is a faction of probably disproportionately loud residents who don't want this development. It’s hard to fault a council person for having this opinion too if that’s what he’s been hearing from constituents.
February 26, 20205 yr 22 minutes ago, Enginerd said: I don't agree with the sentiment, but there is a faction of probably disproportionately loud residents who don't want this development. It’s hard to fault a council person for having this opinion too if that’s what he’s been hearing from constituents. As I read through this and the retail thread, there appears to be a consistent desire to see retail on Euclid, in Tower City, the Galleria and every mixed-use development. Edited February 26, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder
February 26, 20205 yr We can forget about seeing any retail in Tower City or Galleria, however I would like to see some retail on Euclid Ave, perhaps a small format Target, Kohl's or IKEA. I fear an outlet mall so close to downtown would derail any chance of that happening. https://www.forbes.com/sites/julianneslovak/2018/04/05/why-big-box-retailers-target-and-kohls-are-going-small/#38c00c2fcf57 Edited February 26, 20205 yr by skiwest
February 26, 20205 yr Author But those are wish-list candidates. The outlet center is an actual proposal by a developer with a proven track record. There is also a possibility that a outlet center isn't intended to tap the downtown residential office market, focusing instead on the suburban market. Something like a City Target would tap the downtown market but not the suburban market. Possibly these retail functions are mutually exclusive? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 26, 20205 yr I think everyone on this board would love retail in Tower City, the Galleria, Euclid, Superior, etc. An outlet mall doesn't preclude that; it's a completely different beast that's geared to different demographics and regions. And the lack of downtown retail isn't due to a perceived threat of a, frankly, poorly accessible outlet mall site. It's probably related more to Tower City's failure and unique stigmas/perceptions than anything. Edited February 26, 20205 yr by TBideon
February 26, 20205 yr Just a friendly reminder to keep this thread about the outlet mall proposal. Not about general Downtown retail.
February 27, 20205 yr On 2/25/2020 at 2:56 PM, bjk said: There's also the Waterfront line Outlet malls tend to be places where shoppers fill up several large bags, not buy one or two things. People with other options are very unlikely to take such things onto transit.
March 15, 20205 yr I agree with Litt’s measured response in today’s review / commentary. (TL;DR: it probably isn’t the best use of the property, but it does merit at least listening to the developer since it is a dead zone. He was able to get some good quotes from Ronayne, who views it as an opportunity to leverage into other things the city wants, perhaps another street grid connection.) There are some renderings and current pictures in the the article. Also, I respectfully request that if you’ve already stated your arguments on the merits of this project, and don’t have anything new to add, please do not post another response. I’m all for general debate and discussion on projects, but this one has gone off the rails repeatedly. https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2020/03/downtown-outlet-mall-proposal-shows-need-for-stronger-vision-on-lakefront.html “CLEVELAND, Ohio — At first blush, the proposal by Horizon Group Properties of suburban Chicago to build an outlet mall between South Marginal Road and the Cleveland Memorial Shoreway opposite Burke Lakefront Airport sounds awful. ... “Located between high ground on Davenport Bluffs and the lower-lying land south side of the Shoreway, the long, thin strip of land is occupied by municipal parking lots and disused, city-owned tennis courts. Today, it looks dead, dead, dead. “So, in the absence of any other proposals for this isolated near-lakefront property, which nevertheless has decent access and visibility from the Shoreway, it makes sense for the city to consider the outlet mall idea, which it is.” Based on this render, it looks like they are trying to get a cinema.. Edited March 15, 20205 yr by Boomerang_Brian Typo When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
March 15, 20205 yr On 2/22/2020 at 7:47 PM, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said: I just fear that suburbanites are so crime averting that once an incident happens, they aren't going to shop their again. They always cite Tower City as a ghetto, filled with panhandlers, kids running around harassing people as reasons why Tower City failed as a retail destination. I'm afraid they will view this thing the same way eventually, losing customers. When they say stupid things like that, it's usually better to walk away than to try to change their mind.
March 15, 20205 yr I think I would be fine with this project if they built this more in the style of Crocker Park with a street grid that would then spark other development around it. It could then become a true extension of downtown later down the road.
March 15, 20205 yr i think they can do better with the design and with that shoreway view, its rather outdated, but ok its clear they are trying to make it nice, so thats good to see. a movie theater is a twist. hmm. that seems like they want people to stick around and not just shop and go. i wonder what else they want to add?
March 16, 20205 yr If they're aiming for a cinema, I hope they're going for something like Silverspot at Pinecrest. That type of setup has been a popular draw there, and would be here too (I would rather see it at FEB like was originally planned, but that seems to be dead now?).
July 12, 20204 yr The listing for the proposed outlet mall is no longer on Loopnet. It now appears to be listed with CBRE with this image I haven't seen before. https://www.cbre.us/properties/properties-for-lease/retail/details/US-SMPL-3526?view=isLetting Edited July 12, 20204 yr by freethink
July 13, 20204 yr 4 hours ago, freethink said: The listing for the proposed outlet mall is no longer on Loopnet. It now appears to be listed with CBRE with this image I haven't seen before. https://www.cbre.us/properties/properties-for-lease/retail/details/US-SMPL-3526?view=isLetting The link is NOT working. EDIT: It does works in the Chrome browser but NOT in the Opera browser for some reason. Edited July 13, 20204 yr by Larry1962 Corrections and more details
July 13, 20204 yr Interesting, it was my understanding before that this was to be an enclosed mall, but from the new renderings it appears it will be open air with some covering over parts of the walkways. While that would be great in the summer, I don't think that would be a great choice for that location in the winter - especially with the coverings preventing any warming from sun when we have it. I get the feeling of cold icy wind tunnels.
July 13, 20204 yr I went to Aurora Farms today for the first time in 3 or 4 years. To say it’s on it’s last legs would be a massive understatement! There can’t be a sadder outlet mall in the country. I don’t love the idea of an outlet mall at this location, but it’s a shot at a significant upgrade for the region and something that has far easier access for far more people. My hovercraft is full of eels
July 13, 20204 yr 3 hours ago, roman totale XVII said: I went to Aurora Farms today for the first time in 3 or 4 years. To say it’s on it’s last legs would be a massive understatement! There can’t be a sadder outlet mall in the country. I don’t love the idea of an outlet mall at this location, but it’s a shot at a significant upgrade for the region and something that has far easier access for far more people. I would argue the outlet mall in Lodi is even sadder! Thought I’d heard somewhere that Simon floated a plan to essentially bulldoze most of Aurora Farms and rebuild. I’m guessing that’s been held up by the pandemic too.
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