Couldn't find a mayfield topic, progressive is going to close their main corporate building known as campus 1 will take 18months, employees will move to campus 2. Their occupancy in Cleveland buildings is currently 8-10%, or 850 employees in 10,000 seats.

Their other buildings that were put on the market recently are in discussions with the clinic for a sale

Edited July 26, 20231 yr by BoomerangCleRes

^ For that number of people Dan or Jimmy should offer them a nice river/ lakeside deal…

5 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said:

^ For that number of people Dan or Jimmy should offer them a nice river/ lakeside deal…

I would guess just like Dan, progressive likes to own their buildings. Also they have certain assets that would force them to stay in at least campus 2 

8-10%? Holy s**te! They’re going to crater what’s left of the regional office market. How much empty sf is that?

3 hours ago, marty15 said:

8-10%? Holy s**te! They’re going to crater what’s left of the regional office market. How much empty sf is that?

 

Check out my article. Campus 1 alone is just over 1 million sf.

36 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Check out my article. Campus 1 alone is just over 1 million sf.

I did after I posted this. Holy crap. And thats just campus 1.

WFH is killing the office market. I guess a lot of people are happy about not having to go to the office every day but, man..

 

I get that change is happening faster and faster but who saw this coming on this level? WOW!

Any chance with Progressive changing up their corporate headquarters they think about coming back downtown?   That'd be lovely if they brought in a tower with the Lakefront development.

41 minutes ago, G00pie said:

Any chance with Progressive changing up their corporate headquarters they think about coming back downtown?   That'd be lovely if they brought in a tower with the Lakefront development.

I do believe in the future that could be a possibility when wfh reverses. They will once again need a lot of space that they’ll no longer have and that could be true for a lot of companies as their previous office space turns into residential. 
The ceo did say at the end of the transcript that Ken shared part of that they do not need big impressive buildings, but rather it’s the people themselves. But you know that could have been to soothe employees worries and their stance on that will likely change as they’ll need the space somewhere. However as I mentioned and Ken mentioned until they make a dramatic shift technically they will always need campus 2 for the assets it contains 

Seems like they're dramatically reducing space due to such a small number of in-person workers. Do you think they would want to spend 100s of millions of dollars on a new, shiny downtown building that would be 90 percent empty like their suburb offices?

 

Salesforce is going through something similar in Chicago and they are desperately trying and failing to find sublet tenants in their big new building. Apparently layoffs are on the horizon too. I'd imagine Progressive would want to avoid the headache and stay put until the commercial real estate market gets healthier.

Just now, TBideon said:

Seems like they're dramatically reducing space due to such a small number of in-person workers. Do you think they would want to spend 100s of millions of dollars on a new, shiny downtown building that would be 90 percent empty like their suburb offices?

 

Salesforce is going through something similar in Chicago and they are desperately trying and failing to find sublet tenants in their big new building. Apparently layoffs are on the horizon too. I'd imagine Progressive would want to avoid the headache and stay put until the commercial real estate market gets healthier.

WFH won’t last forever 

Just speculation on my part but I bet Progressive had a significant number of work from home or hybrid employees before the pandemic, more than most companies, and it blossomed from there.  Insurance is one legacy industry where a work from home model can work pretty well with few of the reported downsides.  Many of the jobs just administrative like in nature and very few positions  could be considered creative or require in person brain storming and little meeting with clients.   Maybe some in marketing.  Lots of work over the internet.

48 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

Just speculation on my part but I bet Progressive had a significant number of work from home or hybrid employees before the pandemic, more than most companies, and it blossomed from there.  Insurance is one legacy industry where a work from home model can work pretty well with few of the reported downsides.  Many of the jobs just administrative like in nature and very few positions  could be considered creative or require in person brain storming and little meeting with clients.   Maybe some in marketing.  Lots of work over the internet.

Before the pandemic it was near impossible to get wfh approval, even moving to another city where a major office existed was extremely difficult. 

Yes most of the work can be done from home and there are certain departments that still have to go in, some requiring at least a few days in office. However companies are losing a lot not being in person especially with onboarding and training, a shift will come in time 

 

Edited July 28, 20231 yr by BoomerangCleRes

As I mentioned a while back, a lot of WFHers are getting tired of it and would like to return to the office.  Or else their spouses would like them to return to the office.  😊

 

Edited July 28, 20231 yr by LibertyBlvd

28 minutes ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

WFH won’t last forever 

My fear is; the next stage of WFH is work from India, or some other cheap labor market to exploit. In the name of “shareholder value”.

They’re such a big employer I’m sure I’m not the only person who knows several Progressive employees. The comments above are spot-on in that so much of Progressive’s work can be done remotely. What I’m also getting from my friends and contacts who work there is that the leadership also has a pretty laissez-faire attitude in general and would rather follow what employees want, rather than direct/ dictate what they want them to do. I too, don’t see this lasting long-term. I feel, in general, that the WFH swing in the pendulum is now at the zenith and things will start correcting back towards the office. Not that it will ever get back to what it was. 

10 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said:

They’re such a big employer I’m sure I’m not the only person who knows several Progressive employees. The comments above are spot-on in that so much of Progressive’s work can be done remotely. What I’m also getting from my friends and contacts who work there is that the leadership also has a pretty laissez-faire attitude in general and would rather follow what employees want, rather than direct/ dictate what they want them to do. I too, don’t see this lasting long-term. I feel, in general, that the WFH swing in the pendulum is now at the zenith and things will start correcting back towards the office. Not that it will ever get back to what it was. 

It will if Jamie Dimon is elected king.

21 minutes ago, marty15 said:

My fear is; the next stage of WFH is work from India, or some other cheap labor market to exploit. In the name of “shareholder value”.

I believe that already happened about 30 years ago.

Progressive shedding over a million sq ft of office space should tell you how temporary they view WFH. 

1 minute ago, Mendo said:

Progressive shedding over a million sq ft of office space should tell you how temporary they view WFH. 

It may take another generation or another ceo, obviously it’s reversal is not in the next 5 years 

4 minutes ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

It may take another generation or another ceo, obviously it’s reversal is not in the next 5 years 

 

You might be right on a long enough timeline. But I don't consider a generation from now temporary.

So what exactly will be the reason why WFH becomes less of a thing? I don't see it going away because a lot of jobs are very repetitious and don't need much interaction with the person in the next cube. Why would a company keep a job like that in-house when they can save on office space? 

 

Like @marty15said, l think those jobs will move to India before they come back to the office. That being said, l hope l'm wrong because WFH while benefiting business has put a whole lot of hurt on downtowns. 

4 minutes ago, cadmen said:

So what exactly will be the reason why WFH becomes less of a thing? I don't see it going away because a lot of jobs are very repetitious and don't need much interaction with the person in the next cube. Why would a company keep a job like that in-house when they can save on office space? 

I suppose it depends on the role of the employee.  I'm in IT and a few years ago while working elsewhere, a co-worker moved to Nevada but continued to work remotely from home.  I gotta say it was a pain in the butt collaborating with him on projects that way.

^ Well being an old dude l'm very much in favor of face to face interactions vs.  phone or even zoom so l get your point. I do think some jobs/projects will be more difficult with remote communication but those aren't necessarily the kind of jobs most people working remotely are doing. 

 

Here's one example l am familiar with. When l worked in clinical research at the Clinic all our finance people (money funding trials) were in-house. They left when covid disrupted things but they never came back to the office. The Clinic discovered they could be just as effective at home. All their interactions are now via phone or zoom with no issues. I think WFH is the present and future.

I've got bad news for anyone who does repetitious admin or online/phone customer service work ( and even some creative work, too), whether from home or the office- ai has your number.  Office workers are about to feel the hurt that blue collar workers did when automation took their jobs a generation or two ago.  How is that going to impact office markets?

18 minutes ago, cadmen said:

^ Well being an old dude l'm very much in favor of face to face interactions vs.  phone or even zoom so l get your point. I do think some jobs/projects will be more difficult with remote communication but those aren't necessarily the kind of jobs most people working remotely are doing. 

 

Here's one example l am familiar with. When l worked in clinical research at the Clinic all our finance people (money funding trials) were in-house. They left when covid disrupted things but they never came back to the office. The Clinic discovered they could be just as effective at home. All their interactions are now via phone or zoom with no issues. I think WFH is the present and future.

 

My daughter's aunt is finance at UH and they are the same way.   

 

I'm old, but I'd rather do things by e-mail, I'm not a big fan of real-time.   It favors office politics over results.  But I'm in manufacturing so remote isn't usually an option.

31 minutes ago, X said:

I've got bad news for anyone who does repetitious admin or online/phone customer service work ( and even some creative work, too), whether from home or the office- ai has your number.  Office workers are about to feel the hurt that blue collar workers did when automation took their jobs a generation or two ago.  How is that going to impact office markets?

^^This exactly. WFH doesn’t have to last forever. It just has to last ‘till 2026 when AI replaces half of all office jobs. 
 

I can’t think of any realistic reuse opportunity for the Progressive campus. In my gut, I think it will be vacant ‘till it gets demo-ed.

1 minute ago, LlamaLawyer said:

I can’t think of any realistic reuse opportunity for the Progressive campus. In my gut, I think it will be vacant ‘till it gets demo-ed.

Cleveland Clinic always seems to be in need of office space.

Something I don’t think people consider about work from home is that it is much easier to eliminate positions when you hardly know the people in the jobs.   Sometimes it is the personal relationships that save your ass during a restructuring 

On 7/18/2023 at 12:44 PM, marty15 said:

@misterjoshr @zbaris87Will the city’s elimination of mandatory parking minimums move the needle much with any new or future developments? 

Yes -- I think speaking over a multiple year horizon -- it will allow you to look more creatively or re-look at options.   

1 hour ago, OH_Really said:

Something I don’t think people consider about work from home is that it is much easier to eliminate positions when you hardly know the people in the jobs.   Sometimes it is the personal relationships that save your ass during a restructuring 

All the more reason why employers may prefer to keep people at home, or at least hybrid. It makes cutting costs, aka cutting labor, that more easy. A mass zoom firing is much more efficient than HR going from room to room to room to room throughout a company and dealing with the fallout directly and in person.

 

Edited July 28, 20231 yr by TBideon

So l just read a front page article in New York magazine on the office building crisis that is happening right now in Manhattan. WFH is the primary reason that companies are giving back space when their leases are up. That is creating a glut of space which is proving impossible to rent out which is then forcing the businesses that owned the building to give it back to the bank holding the mortgage which can't sell it at a profit so the banks holding these worthless properties are now in danger themselves of going belly-up. 

 

The main property owner the story profiled said the country will be facing a bank crisis in a few years as all these regional banks go bankrupt due to holding properties worth far less than they paid for them. 

 

The other point was was that real estate taxes make up a large portion of city funds and as these properties begin to pay little or no taxes the cities begin to have problems paying workers, pensions and doing general maintenance. Creating an urban doom loop. 

 

And we think Cleveland is struggling to fill vacant office space...

48 minutes ago, cadmen said:

And we think Cleveland is struggling to fill vacant office space...

 

And this is why I'm so excited about Downtown Cleveland's future. We're already one of the top cities in office conversions so we might be ahead of the game in solving a problem before it becomes a problem. If you look at the numbers we still have 80+% office space leased out so we are certainly keeping pace taking sqft off the market into the residential market as you saw last year Cleveland's downtown population is now 20k+ and continuing to climb. 

 

There will always be need for some office space I just think if we continue to make good use of the space that's no longer needed we'll see a very healthy heart of the city. 

2 hours ago, cadmen said:

So l just read a front page article in New York magazine on the office building crisis that is happening right now in Manhattan. WFH is the primary reason that companies are giving back space when their leases are up. That is creating a glut of space which is proving impossible to rent out which is then forcing the businesses that owned the building to give it back to the bank holding the mortgage which can't sell it at a profit so the banks holding these worthless properties are now in danger themselves of going belly-up. 

 

The main property owner the story profiled said the country will be facing a bank crisis in a few years as all these regional banks go bankrupt due to holding properties worth far less than they paid for them. 

 

The other point was was that real estate taxes make up a large portion of city funds and as these properties begin to pay little or no taxes the cities begin to have problems paying workers, pensions and doing general maintenance. Creating an urban doom loop. 

 

And we think Cleveland is struggling to fill vacant office space...

That certainly doesn't bode well for projects looking for financing.

Based on job listings I see, it seems like companies are mostly going with a “hybrid” schedule with around 3 days in the office. Having work from home days was a trend that was growing before covid, so that to me indicates that trend is here to stay. Workers love it and companies can save money. Not many benefits employers offer that actually reduce their costs. 

The one thing I don’t understand are local employers that want their workers to come into the office 3+ days a week but locate in suburbs that are far out from the center of the region. We’re in a global economy but if you put your office in Westlake or Mayfield, you’re essentially eliminating a chunk of your already small prospective labor pool because people don’t want to commute that far, especially now that they’ve had a chance to WFH. It seems to me it’d be better for our economy, companies and employees to centralize the office experience downtown or near downtown to create a network effect of everyone being close so ideas can be shared, new connections made, etc. 

 

On the flip side, a huge element of getting people to come to offices is investing in them to make the experience positive and attractive. Some may make the calculation that it’s just easier and cheaper to let people work at home. 

 

Anecdotal evidence only but the work from anywhere trend seems to be a net gain for markets like Cleveland. I know tons of folks working for out of town companies but staying put instead of leaving town. 

1 hour ago, coneflower said:

Based on job listings I see, it seems like companies are mostly going with a “hybrid” schedule with around 3 days in the office. Having work from home days was a trend that was growing before covid, so that to me indicates that trend is here to stay. Workers love it and companies can save money. Not many benefits employers offer that actually reduce their costs. 

The one thing I don’t understand are local employers that want their workers to come into the office 3+ days a week but locate in suburbs that are far out from the center of the region. We’re in a global economy but if you put your office in Westlake or Mayfield, you’re essentially eliminating a chunk of your already small prospective labor pool because people don’t want to commute that far, especially now that they’ve had a chance to WFH. It seems to me it’d be better for our economy, companies and employees to centralize the office experience downtown or near downtown to create a network effect of everyone being close so ideas can be shared, new connections made, etc. 

 

On the flip side, a huge element of getting people to come to offices is investing in them to make the experience positive and attractive. Some may make the calculation that it’s just easier and cheaper to let people work at home. 

 

This was my thoughts on Progressive...  you just wrote it so much more elegantly and with more thought.

4 hours ago, coneflower said:

On the flip side, a huge element of getting people to come to offices is investing in them to make the experience positive and attractive. Some may make the calculation that it’s just easier and cheaper to let people work at home. 

At a previous employer, on almost every Friday afternoon, they had a "happy hour" event with beer, wine, snacks, etc.  A few time a year they would do a catered lunch for all employees. There were several other fun events throughout the year such as a chili cook-off and a Halloween costume contest. And they had Starbucks coffee in the break room.

 

Edited July 29, 20231 yr by LibertyBlvd

The article l read talked about how some companies in an attempt to get employees to come back to the office as well as keeping them from jumping ship entirely were massively upgrading amenities. The problem with that approach is only companies with deep pockets can do that. Most are out of luck. So you get the cream of the crop and everyone else.

 

I come from a time where people were just happy to have a job and had little leverage. This new work environment is mind blowing to me. 

This may seem like a dumb question but is WFH global? Is it more prevalent in the US than other countries?

^ I work for and with global companies. Of course there’s always exceptions, but roughly speaking WFH is prevalent in Europe, but not to the extent that it is in the US. It’s less prevalent in South America and it’s negligible across Asia, where from India across to Japan, people are pretty much back in the office. 

1 hour ago, cadmen said:

The article l read talked about how some companies in an attempt to get employees to come back to the office as well as keeping them from jumping ship entirely were massively upgrading amenities. The problem with that approach is only companies with deep pockets can do that. Most are out of luck. So you get the cream of the crop and everyone else.

 

I come from a time where people were just happy to have a job and had little leverage. This new work environment is mind blowing to me. 

 

Right. The work environment has changed so much since I started working, and I'm far off retirement. I don't believe the idea of workers having leverage is a natural concept in Northeast Ohio compared to other regions where people job hop more frequently. I think the belief that workers here have no real agency and are lucky to have jobs has contributed to a stagnant economy because many people when presented with that scenario decide to move. A little more churn and competition is good for us, and I say that as someone who hates change.

 

I also think something that is not intuitive for some business leaders is that new benefits and office amenties aren't just cushy perks. The brilliant thing the tech companies did years ago was make everyone think they were so generous about catered lunches and lush offices, but they were trying to create an environment where people worked more. I think younger people are more sensitive to that, but the question now isn't "more hours" anymore anyway since that is easy to achieve at home, but being more productive, especially when working in person. And that comes back to the investments building owners and employers make. Just expecting people to come answer emails in a soulless cube farm isn't going to cut it and honestly for the employer, that's not bringing them any value either. 

 

 

Edited July 29, 20231 yr by coneflower

I'm at Eden and I noticed the McKinley building is putting an addition on top. Anyone know anything about that?

Edited July 29, 20231 yr by KFM44107

2 hours ago, KFM44107 said:

I'm at Eden and I noticed the McKinley building is putting an addition on top. Anyone know anything about that?

 

What's the McKinley Building?

2 hours ago, KFM44107 said:

I'm at Eden and I noticed the McKinley building is putting an addition on top. Anyone know anything about that?

If you’re referring to the building with the Holiday Inn Express, it’s an extension to the penthouse condo for the building owner, or one their family, I forget. Someone who works the building told me this a while ago. 

By McKinley I meant Garfield. It's one of those dead presidents 🤣. Wrong building either way. 

Lots of cool stuff on this week's planning commission agenda. The first three are financing packages for development projects....

 

1.    Ordinance No. 787-2023(Introduced by Councilmembers McCormack, Hairston and Griffin – by departmental request): Authorizing the Director of Economic Development to enter into a development agreement with Cleveland LD LLC, or its designee, successors and assignees, to plan and execute a development and financing strategy to maximize public and private use along Cleveland’s riverfront, including Tower City, property between Huron Road and the riverfront, and property between Ontario Street and the riverfront. 

 

2.    Ordinance No. 788-2023(Introduced by Councilmembers McCormack, Hairston and Griffin – by departmental request): Authorizing the Mayor and the Commissioner of Purchases and Supplies to acquire and re-convey properties presently owned by Apartment 92-The Apollo, LLC, and/or its designee, located at 1250 Riverbed Street, for the purpose of entering into the chain-of-title prior to the adoption of tax increment financing legislation authorized under Section 5709.41 of the Revised Code for the Kaplan Shanman Building Mixed Use Development Project. 

 

3.    Ordinance No. 789-2023(Introduced by Councilmembers McCormack, Hairston and Griffin – by  departmental request): Authorizing the Director of Economic Development to enter into an Enterprise Zone Agreement with Erieview Holdings, LLC, and/or its designee, to provide for tax abatement for certain real property improvements as an incentive to revitalize Erieview Tower.

 

4.    Ordinance No. 790-2023(Introduced by Councilmembers Bishop and Griffin – by departmental request): Authorizing the Director of Capital Projects, on behalf of the Office of Sustainability, to enter into one or more contracts with Volta Charging, LLC for a publically accessible electric charging station network in the public right-of-way and on City-owned property, for a period of ten years, with one five-year option to renew, exercisable by the Director of Capital Projects; authorizing the Director to apply for and accept any gifts, grants, or services from any private or public entities. 

 

5.    Ordinance No. 801-2023(Introduced by Councilmembers McCormack, Hairston and Griffin – by departmental request): To supplement the Codified Ordinances of Cleveland, Ohio, 1976, by enacting new Sections 301.01 to 301.09 relating to transit oriented development and transportation demand management; and to amend Section 341.02, as amended by Ordinance No. 1872-08, passed February 9, 2009, and Section 349.11, as amended by Ordinance No. 1236-A-67, passed June 28, 1971, relating to applicability and exceptions to minimum parking requirements. 

 

ADMINISTRATIVE APPROVALS
1.    Ordinance No. 747-2023-2023 (Introduced by Councilmembers Bishop and Griffin – by departmental request): Authorizing the Director of Public Works to continue to lease or otherwise make available certain space located in the Ticket House building adjacent to Cleveland’s Historic League Park in the Negro League Baseball Legends of Fame Inc. dba Baseball Heritage Museum for the purpose of storing and displaying historical baseball memorabilia relevant to League Park, for a period of up to five years with two one-year options to renew, exercisable by the Director of Public Works. 

 

2.    Ordinance No. 796-2023(Introduced by Councilmembers Hairston and Griffin - by departmental request): Approving the addition or property located at the intersection of East 97th Street and Lamont Avenue to the Northeast Ohio Advanced Energy District; accepting and approving a petition and plan from a property owner in the District identifying a special energy improvement project; declaring it necessary to conduct the special energy improvement project; providing for the assessment of the cost of such special energy improvement project; authorizing the Director of Economic Development to enter into an Energy Project Cooperative Agreement and a Special Assessment Agreement to implement the project; and declaring an emergency. 
 

On 7/28/2023 at 11:58 AM, X said:

I've got bad news for anyone who does repetitious admin or online/phone customer service work ( and even some creative work, too), whether from home or the office- ai has your number.  Office workers are about to feel the hurt that blue collar workers did when automation took their jobs a generation or two ago.  How is that going to impact office markets?

A little off topic but when you posted this, I was attending MAICON, the annual conference put on by the Marketing Artificial Intelligence Institute (based in Cleveland). You’re absolutely right - in fact one session discussed thinking vs. “thunking” (the repetitive tasks and anything that lends itself to automation.) As a creative, yes - some work will be affected, but as they said - creatives won’t be replaced by AI, but creatives who use AI absolutely will replace those who don’t. The meme I’ve shared sums up my thoughts, at least for the near future 😁

 

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in headcount, floor space needs, etc. I’m glad Cleveland has been able to do pretty well in adaptive reuse, anecdotally foot traffic has been decent on the days I’m in the office.

 

Seeds & Sprouts XXXI – Oliva Steakhouse on downtown’s menu; Starting Point center opening at Link59; Lido Lounge stripped by George, BofA

By Ken Prendergast / August 1, 2023

 

A new restaurant is coming to downtown Cleveland’s Warehouse District possibly by the end of the year and a familiar couple is cooking it up. Lola and Luca Sema, who own Luca Restaurants which in turn owns and operates Luca Italian Cuisine, Luca West and Acqua di Luca, are planning their fourth restaurant — Oliva Steakhouse, 408 W. St. Clair Ave. The site is the space previously occupied for two decades by Ostera di Valerio until it moved in late-2019 to 1801 E. 9th St.

 

MORE: 

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/08/01/seeds-starting-point-center-opening-at-link59-lido-lounge-stripped-by-george-bofa/

2 hours ago, MayDay said:

A little off topic but when you posted this, I was attending MAICON, the annual conference put on by the Marketing Artificial Intelligence Institute (based in Cleveland). You’re absolutely right - in fact one session discussed thinking vs. “thunking” (the repetitive tasks and anything that lends itself to automation.) As a creative, yes - some work will be affected, but as they said - creatives won’t be replaced by AI, but creatives who use AI absolutely will replace those who don’t. The meme I’ve shared sums up my thoughts, at least for the near future 😁

 

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in headcount, floor space needs, etc. I’m glad Cleveland has been able to do pretty well in adaptive reuse, anecdotally foot traffic has been decent on the days I’m in the office.

 

So creative people's clients aren't all that different from manufacturing customers...