1 hour ago, Htsguy said:

Wasn't the second bomb news of the beginning of construction of the Shoreway Tower posted in the Detroit/Shoreway thread?

 

Yes

On 4/1/2025 at 11:23 AM, Dino said:

Legitimate question...why is real estate in the suburbs so much cheaper?  Historically, land in the City was expensive because that's where everyone wanted or needed to be.  In 1950, three fourths of the county lived in Cleveland.  Today the ratio has reversed, with three fourths living in the suburbs.  Companies are leaving downtown, and people (outside of this forum) are constantly (and ignorantly) complaining about things like crime and parking in the City.  So if the suburbs are so desirable to so many people, why is the land still so cheap?

 

Because there are two factors in the supply and demand equation. Demand may be higher, but the supply of suburban land is even larger by definition.

Well this is.......... interesting!

 

https://www.cleveland.com/newssun/2025/04/brook-parks-blue-abyss-project-breaks-ground-with-help-from-horses.html

Brook Park’s Blue Abyss project breaks ground with help from horses

 

This project feels significant enough that maybe it could use it's own construction thread now but idk

46 minutes ago, Geowizical said:

Well this is.......... interesting!

 

https://www.cleveland.com/newssun/2025/04/brook-parks-blue-abyss-project-breaks-ground-with-help-from-horses.html

Brook Park’s Blue Abyss project breaks ground with help from horses

 

This project feels significant enough that maybe it could use it's own construction thread now but idk

same thing I was thinking...  but maybe you have to be kind of a nerd...

Quote

While that permitting is in progress, the company is allowed to clear the land -- but without using heavy machinery.

 

That’s where the horses come in.

 

“They need to be able to do some boring to find out the orientation of where the building will lie,” Orcutt said in an interview with the News Sun.

 

“So, before they can do the construction documents, they need to do some boring. To do the boring, they have to clear the land, and they’re allowed to clear the land without any machinery, and that’s why they’re using the horses.”

 

This was funny to read

7 hours ago, sonisharri said:

 

This was funny to read

It was funny and fun, so naturally cleveland.com buried it in their suburban section.

14 hours ago, sonisharri said:

 

This was funny to read

 

It's a very clever way to get around bureausclerosis and keep things moving.

On 4/3/2025 at 8:15 AM, lockdog said:

same thing I was thinking...  but maybe you have to be kind of a nerd...

I just assumed 98% of us on this forum are nerds.

On 4/4/2025 at 12:15 PM, Silent Matt said:

I just assumed 98% of us on this forum are nerds.

Closet nerd here.

I can't shake the image of the horses trotting around in a circle to power the drilling rig. 

 

Maybe I'm both a nerd and part Amish 🤔

Terry Coyne's anecdotes about his experience working as a developer in the city have, frankly, been devastating... And no one has been able to rebut the claims or provide a rationale... 

 

Someone has to say something or it will never get fixed.

It's possible inspectors have extra leeway to catch mistakes by the building dept during permitting. Of course the solution is better training for the folks that review plans before issuing permits, not by giving inspectors carte blanche to go/no-go projects on site.

 

That said, his story doesn't sound believable. Or missing context at best.

 

Edited April 9Apr 9 by Mendo

3 minutes ago, Mendo said:

It's possible inspectors have extra leeway because of mistakes made by the building dept in the past during permitting. Of course the solution is more training for the folks that review plans to catch mistakes before issuing permits, not by giving inspectors carte blanche to no/no-go projects on site.

 

That said, his story doesn't sound believable. Or missing context at best.

 

 

Oh, it's believable.

 

The context is he's talking about this out loud and may be embarrassing people in power.

 

Or it may be something shall we say more traditional.   (And much less legal).

On 4/6/2025 at 1:37 PM, stpats44113 said:

Closet nerd here.

 

I've spent a good part of my life trying to not be one, with mixed success.  :)

Ideas on what can be developed on this 50+ acre Cleveland (West Park) location ?? 
 

and/or why it is currently a large grass field that appears to have had all the prior homes demolished  ? 

This is a direct result of Generations of nepotism civil service jobs to completely unqualified candidates. Big City Civil Service is a JOKE and nothing more than a Reelection conduit 

1 hour ago, ClevelandNative said:

Ideas on what can be developed on this 50+ acre Cleveland (West Park) location ?? 
 

and/or why it is currently a large grass field that appears to have had all the prior homes demolished  ? 

 

CORRECTION (thanks @GISguy for pointing it out; I dug through some old Plain Dealer articles, courtesy of cpl.org/newspapers)

 

The homes were demolished for noise abatement with the plans for an industrial park to be built there; only part of the industrial park was built.

 

(NEIGHBORHOOD WON'T DIE EASILY SOME NEAR HOPKINS DON'T WANT TO LEAVE - plain dealer - October 4, 1998; (NEIGHBORHOOD WAITS FOR BULLDOZERS RESIDENTS NEAR HOPKINS AIRPORT ACCEPT NEWS OF SPEEDED-UP BUYOUT PLAN WITHSORROW, RELIEF- plain dealer- February 4, 1998)

 

(And if you're wondering, the demos were funded by a fee tacked onto passengers' tickets)

 

 

(the airport expansion was slated to be south of the airport, as @GISguy mentioned):

 

In the late 1990s, Hopkins was at its peak:

CLE was a continental hub; passenger count peaked in 1999 (https://www.clevelandairport.com/about-us/facts-figures ); 

new concourse D was built (now mothballed)

the first flight to Europe (if i remember correctly) happened in the late 90s as well with plans for much more transatlantic travel.

Thus, there were plans for expansion, so the city bought those homes and demolished them. 

 

Then 9/11, and further air carrier consolidation happened, so the plans were shelved and never happened.

Edited April 8Apr 8 by skorasaurus
additional detail

7 minutes ago, skorasaurus said:

 

Someone with more knowledge can fill in the details:

In the late 1990s, Hopkins was at its peak:

CLE was a continental hub; passenger count peaked in 1999 (https://www.clevelandairport.com/about-us/facts-figures ); 

new concourse D was built (now mothballed)

the first flight to Europe (if i remember correctly) happened in the late 90s as well with plans for much more transatlantic travel.

Thus, there were plans for expansion, so the city bought those homes and demolished them. 

 

Then 9/11, and further air carrier consolidation happened, so the plans were shelved and never happened.

 

Since then, the small industrial park north of Rocky River Driver on Cleveland Parkway drive was built.

 

 

Thanks for the info 

2 minutes ago, skorasaurus said:

 

Someone more knowledge can fill in the details and correct me; but in the late 1990s; Hopkins was at its peak (was a continental hub; passenger count peaked in 1999 (https://www.clevelandairport.com/about-us/facts-figures ) ; there were plans for expansion; so the city bought those homes and demolished them. 

Then 9/11, and further air carrier consolidation happened.

 

Not sure this has anything to do with expansion, I think it was noise abatement. Feel free to correct me but the expansion was going to be on the southern part of the airport and land where the IX Center is - that's why Cleveland swapped land with Brook Park (IX Center (BP) for NASA (Cleveland)). 

 

Also an aside, you can also see the pattern of the runways and buffered safety areas off to the right of that image. 

Google Earth shows homes there (a lot of them) in 1994. Pardon my ignorance... but it would take something significant (i.e. an interstate) to force that many people out

 

Would be nice to see homes built there again. Like the modern ones from Scullin Dr (closer to Lorain Ave and Rocky River Dr)

 

The city is in need of new single family homes 

Edited April 8Apr 8 by ClevelandNative

On 11/27/2024 at 7:56 PM, YABO713 said:

Terry Coyne just flamed the city on Linkedin again... 

 

I hate to say it, but the guy's been spot on, and his critiques are objective and backed up by fact.

 

6 hours ago, YABO713 said:

Terry Coyne's anecdotes about his experience working as a developer in the city have, frankly, been devastating... And no one has been able to rebut the claims or provide a rationale... 

 

Did I miss something? Why are we discussing TC’s LinkedIn post from November?

 

I have to imagine this has either been resolved by now or that someone from the city has reached out in a more private fashion. 
 

Edit - ok my bad, this is a NEW one! There goes my “reached out in private” theory lol

I can vouch for these sorts of delays and confusion. The building department is, at the very least, significantly understaffed on both the residential and commercial side of things. A project I’m involved with was submitted before Christmas and was just approved for zoning (meaning the permit review can begin) last week. Four months to date for a process that is required by the Ohio Building Code to take 30 days and I have at least another 30-60 days in front of me. It’s incredibly frustrating, costs money, dissuades continued development, and has gotten worse in the past 2 years.

2 hours ago, YABO713 said:

Google Earth shows homes there (a lot of them) in 1994. Pardon my ignorance... but it would take something significant (i.e. an interstate) to force that many people out

 

 

@YABO713 airport noise abatement program (aka get rid of ears and the bodies attached to them). I was at Sun when this was going on and it was a pretty big controversy.

Because of the noise thing the only thing that can be built there is really industrial and heavy commercial uses. 

8 hours ago, YABO713 said:

Terry Coyne's anecdotes about his experience working as a developer in the city have, frankly, been devastating... And no one has been able to rebut the claims or provide a rationale... 

 

Oh, I can absolutely relate. I’ve had just as bad experiences. I’m holding out hope that it gets fixed with the supposed streamlined system that we were told that’s coming this spring. 

18 hours ago, w28th said:

I can vouch for these sorts of delays and confusion. The building department is, at the very least, significantly understaffed on both the residential and commercial side of things. A project I’m involved with was submitted before Christmas and was just approved for zoning (meaning the permit review can begin) last week. Four months to date for a process that is required by the Ohio Building Code to take 30 days and I have at least another 30-60 days in front of me. It’s incredibly frustrating, costs money, dissuades continued development, and has gotten worse in the past 2 years.

God forbid we add to government payrolls.

1 hour ago, Foraker said:

God forbid we add to government payrolls.

I'm not a betting man, but I'd be willing to bet the problem is more likely to be broken processes/too much bureaucracy.

2 hours ago, TMart said:

I'm not a betting man, but I'd be willing to bet the problem is more likely to be broken processes/too much bureaucracy.

Very much so. 

 

The city unions have spent decades negotiating crazy rules for their members because there isn't any money to go after huge raises.  So instead, the rank and file get more break time, and time to dressed in the morning, then more break time, and transit time, followed by another break, then time to go back for lunch, then another break. then back to change out of uniforms in the afternoon.  In my experience with the City of Cleveland, the average worker in these positions probably spends less than 3 hours of every 8 hour day actually doing their job.   

6 hours ago, Cleburger said:

Very much so. 

 

The city unions have spent decades negotiating crazy rules for their members because there isn't any money to go after huge raises.  So instead, the rank and file get more break time, and time to dressed in the morning, then more break time, and transit time, followed by another break, then time to go back for lunch, then another break. then back to change out of uniforms in the afternoon.  In my experience with the City of Cleveland, the average worker in these positions probably spends less than 3 hours of every 8 hour day actually doing their job.   

 

Not uncommon for white collar workers, actually.  But really, we have other threads for this.  So let's get back on topic.

Not really a good place to put this, but something cool in the works that would be great to have in the region:

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/sports-recreation/highland-park-golf-course-eyes-lpga-event-2027

Highland Park Golf Course betting on big upgrades to land LPGA event

• Nearing completion on a $1 million driving range that will measure 400 yards from tip to tip and 150 yards across. The range will include netting along Green Road.

• The range is the first piece in a larger development plan that includes a $3 million, state-of-the-art learning center building to open in 2027. The learning center will have six four-season Trackman simulators, 16 three-season Topracer Bays and a total of 30 grass bays. 

• Highland's competitive blue course is also set for major renovations, which include 27 new tee boxes, 54 new bunkers and a lengthening to 7,200 yards to meet championship standards. (Highland's red course, which is designed for more casual golfers, will also get some upgrades/redesigns.) 

• Fourteen blue course holes will be remodeled and four will be renovated, all with an eye on becoming the first course to host an LPGA event in Northeast Ohio since 2004, the last year for the Giant Eagle LPGA Classic in Warren.

• Fewer than 30,000 golfers used the course in 2022, a number that jumped to 42,000 in 2023. Last year, more than 52,000 golfers played either a nine-hole or 18-hole round at Highland Park, and the goal is to have 60,000 this year, weather permitting.  
• Ohio’s only LPGA event is the Kroger Queen City Championship, which will be held outside Cincinnati in September. The Epson Tour (the LPGA’s qualifying tour) and the Legends of the LPGA will host a dual event at Highland Meadows Golf Club near Toledo in July, but few of the 3.7 million people who live in Cleveland’s designated market area make the two-hour trek for that event.
• For Highland, the next challenge is finding a tournament sponsor. HPGF is engaged with “several companies,” Flesher said, although he said it’s too soon to mention potential name.

Edited April 11Apr 11 by Geowizical

I could have put this anywhere but since it has the Scranton Peninsula apartments, Skyline 776 apartment tower and the Cavs/Clinic building, figured I'd put it here. 

Carl B. Stokes U.S. Courthouse Plaza Replacement

 

The General Services Administration (GSA) intends to award a Design-Build (DB) contract for improvements necessary to repair the twenty-one story Carl B. Stokes U.S Courthouse (“Stokes”) Plaza, located in downtown Cleveland, Ohio, originally completed in 2002. The building’s plaza has since suffered from water infiltration damage and a lack of pedestrian access. The water infiltration in the plaza has also triggered water leaks/infiltration into lower levels of the building.

 

https://sam.gov/opp/eac83ffaf65d4c20bf926baeb1697b77/view

NASA Is a longshot but today is the deadline to propose agency relocations:

 

https://wtop.com/government/2025/04/federal-agencies-face-monday-deadline-to-submit-plans-to-move-out-of-dc/

30 minutes ago, Willo said:

NASA Is a longshot but today is the deadline to propose agency relocations:

 

https://wtop.com/government/2025/04/federal-agencies-face-monday-deadline-to-submit-plans-to-move-out-of-dc/

 

NASA's acting administrator included this in her email to agency employees on Friday:

Quote

We’re continuing our internal work on the next submission for President Trump’s Workforce Optimization Initiative. Leaders across the agency are actively reviewing and refining proposals to help streamline our operations, reduce duplicative reporting and analysis, and increase the speed and clarity of our decision-making. 

 

This effort also includes thoughtful analysis in response to U.S. Office of Personnel Management’s guidance on relocating certain functions currently based in the National Capital Region. As part of that, we’re exploring what a future NASA Headquarters could look like. Our focus right now is on developing options that align with the Trump Administration’s guidance – but more importantly, support our people and strengthen our ability to deliver on the mission. 

 

It doesn't sound like they've eliminated the idea of moving HQ.  I noticed that she says "National Capital Region" instead of specifically DC, which may be ominous for NASA Goddard in Maryland, which has been subject to rumors of downsizing over the last week.  Not sure this means anything for Glenn in Cleveland, but whether HQ is in play or not, there could certainly be some shuffling of jobs to come.

Just posting for visibility, please keep transit discussion in the transit thread!! 🚄

 

 

 

Federal Building renovations halted
By Ken Prendergast / April 25, 2025

 

NEOtrans has learned that, not only does the Trump Administration intend to close the Anthony J. Celebrezze (AJC) Federal Building in Downtown Cleveland, the agency responsible for federal real estate has reportedly suspended building renovations in-progress. That also means federal taxpayers may have to eat millions of dollars paid for the unfinished work.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2025/04/25/federal-building-renovations-halted/

On 4/1/2025 at 8:23 AM, KJP said:

 

I asked the congresswoman's staff for a breakdown of the $175 million but they didn't have it either. That was a figure from the GSA and they didn't respond to my inquiry. 

 

If it's a legit number, I suspect it's more than just the plumbing, but the whole M-E-P (mechanical - electrical - plumbing) mix. And this apparently doesn't include the $72 million non-MEP renovation planned in 2019. I can't find any records to indicate that work was ever done.

I'm doing a building that's a full shell buildout and we're at about $350/SF. So totally believable. 

My biggest concern with the celebrezze building is the foot traffic impact downtown. So I wanted to make sure I understood the context, have most of the employees been WFH since COVID and only now been brought back downtown?

I ask because In a weird way I'd feel a little better about the wind being taken from downtown sails with the impact being absorbed over these last 4 years regardless.

 

Also I realize you can't trust anything this administration says so any promise to keeping the workforce downtown is as promising as a fart in the wind, but are the suburban options for partial employees or are they possible future homes for the vast majority?

 

this building has always been a money pit. they should have built new instead of adding the glass curtain 12 years ago

3 hours ago, FutureboyWonder said:

My biggest concern with the celebrezze building is the foot traffic impact downtown. So I wanted to make sure I understood the context, have most of the employees been WFH since COVID and only now been brought back downtown?

 

That’s correct at least for DFAS

6 hours ago, Whipjacka said:

this building has always been a money pit. they should have built new instead of adding the glass curtain 12 years ago

That I think they finished 2 years ago... 😜

15 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Federal Building renovations halted
By Ken Prendergast / April 25, 2025

 

NEOtrans has learned that, not only does the Trump Administration intend to close the Anthony J. Celebrezze (AJC) Federal Building in Downtown Cleveland, the agency responsible for federal real estate has reportedly suspended building renovations in-progress. That also means federal taxpayers may have to eat millions of dollars paid for the unfinished work.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2025/04/25/federal-building-renovations-halted/

We still hope that Ronayne is kicking the tires on AJC being an option for the new Courthouse.  Whatever the flaws or needs to bring ACJ up to date - as long as it is below the estimated costs of $400-700 million of the existing proposals - it should be considered as a top contender - especially if the Feds will transfer it to the County:

 

WHAT IS A PUBLIC BENEFIT CONVEYANCE (PBC)? A PBC allows the Federal Government to lease or transfer title of surplus property to qualified entities for public uses at a substantial discount (up to 100% of fair market value). The intent of a PBC is to support property uses that benefit the community as a whole.

GSA confirms Celebrezze Federal Building to be sold

By Ken Prendergast / May 1, 2025

The U.S. General Services Administration (GSA) today announced it will initiate a public sale of the 32-story Anthony J. Celebrezze (AJC) Federal Building, 1240 E 9th St, in Downtown Cleveland that it claims could potentially save more than $430 million in total annual operating costs.

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2025/05/01/gsa-confirms-celebrezze-federal-building-to-be-sold/

Note the added info from Chris Ronayne.

Serious question....is there a possibility that based on the condition of both buildings, that the Justice Center and Celebrezze Building could both be knocked down?

Not saying they should be, but I'm curious just how bad one or both of them are from a disrepair standpoint.

Sorry for my ignorance, I don't pretend to understand laws regarding a Request for Proposals, or the viability of repurposing a skyscraper, but if the AJC won't be vacant for 3 years, can the committee just reject all current proposals and start the process again? None of the proposals were slam dunks anyway and the CPD plan has changed since then and has progressed, which could have a bearing on a re-do final decision?

It has been 2 years of construction costs rising since the first request, and the AJC won't be vacant for another 3 years. Does that timeline help or hurt the AJC for consideration, or is it just not a possibility to even consider it?

I would think so. But what Ronayne is saying is that it cannot be considered now as long as there is an active RFP process. If he lays out the scenario @WhatUp suggested, he will be accused and the county sued for not conducting a RFP process according to the law.

Wasn't sure of the best place for this but thought you might enjoy - view from Lorain-Carnegie Bridge, from 2001 to 2025.