January 2, 200718 yr My guess is continuing vestiges disdain that a lot of people in "old media" still have for the internet in the forms of forums like these and blogs. There's not much respect there, and while I understand in theory where they are coming from, it's a pretty closed-minded way to look at things. It doesn't take very long usually to determine that many people on a site such as this have things to say that can and should be heard. Lots of people assume the worst when it comes to the internet, a strance which is a little phobic for my tastes and smacks of elitism.
January 2, 200718 yr "Many people on a site such as this have things to say that can and should be heard." As I've said before, this forum has many active members from working architects and planners, to architecture/planning students, to developers, to journalists, to simply said - concerned people who give a sh!t. Thus, when Litt writes something to the effect of "where are the people who care?", I have to wonder if he's ever looked up anything on the internet. clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
January 2, 200718 yr its hard to hear anything when you are as high up on your own mountain as Steve Litt is.
January 2, 200718 yr Author Litt probably complained about the design of the mountain, too. I shouldn't say that, though. I like Steve and I don't count him as part of the problem at the PD. If other writers were more like him, I think readers would have a better sense of the good things going on in this town. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 2, 200718 yr i do enjoy him, though because he's the only person there who writes about anything i care about. Dick feagler on the other hand though.........I don't have my AARP card yet.
January 3, 200718 yr I thought that article was pretty positive for Litt. Though the opening paragraphs were his usual doom and gloom, he goes on to predict good things to come for the city, with 2006 a possible turnaround year.
January 3, 200718 yr I e-mailed him challenging him about OSU Campus Partners when he wrote that is something Case could copy. We exchanged a few e-mails, with him highlighting what they do in impoverished areas and I highlighting how they manufactured the blight they point to when justifying bulldozing a neighborhood center.
January 5, 200718 yr The Dollar Bank Building on Euclid Ave. is for sale, it's next to the Atrium Building and across from the Holiday Inn Express. The Lisiting is on http://www.crescorealestate.com/ I think Marous Bros. discussed a condo conversion for this building a few years back.
January 5, 200718 yr "I think Marous Bros. discussed a condo conversion for this building a few years back." Correct - it was listed on Progressive Urban for a while as a 5-unit residential property. They were going to place balconies on the Euclid facade had the project gone through. Maybe with things finally on the uptick on lower Euclid, it'll get done this time. clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
January 5, 200718 yr ^That's right- I've been meaning to ask about that project- I thought it looked super cool but might have been a little ahead of its time. It was being developed by a former principal of what was Van Dijk Pace Westlake, I believe. is the facade original? I like it in a hideous way. I kind of like it too. Very much of its time. I believe it is original.
January 5, 200718 yr Man, I hate that facade!! I wouldn't be surprised if MRN soon buys this property.
January 5, 200718 yr The renderings looked like they planned on tearing off the concrete panels and making it an all glass front, which would be awesome. They need to repaint those teal metal beams, too.
January 6, 200718 yr +++++++++++++++++ IN LIMBO/PENDING/MAYBE +++++++++++++++++ Courthouse Plaza Location: East end of Detroit-Superior Veterans Memorial Viaduct, adjacent to Federal Courthourse Tower Developer: Turner Construction Investment/Cost: $30 million-$50 million? Housing Units: unknown Features: proposed with for-sale units, penthouses, fitness center, walkway to Tower City Center and to Settlers Landing/Waterfront Line station Status: Appears to be awaiting new financing (Madison Capital Group is financial advisor) On the Web: http://www.chplaza.com/ (use "red" and "rose" as the username/password) Images: (courtesy of MayDay) Back to page 1 of this thread: For a development that was supposed to be dead, someone sure likes to keep the website up-to-date. KJP's article about the Avenue District from 10/5/06 and a Crains article about Stonebridge from 9/20/06 are both posted in the Links section. Also, a few of the attachments in there look like they have dates of 11/2006.
January 6, 200718 yr ^ We think alike. I also thought of this project based on the posted comments. That would be a great location for an upscale condo tower. My second choice location would be the NW quadrant of public square. This is a prime location for this kind of development. All though the current surface lot maybe part of Stark's project?
January 6, 200718 yr Author The surface lot on the NW corner of Public Square is owned by Dick Jacobs. Stark hates Jacobs after their costly fight over Crocker Park. I think I'm pretty safe when I say this property will never be part of "Pesht." The only way it might is if Jacobs sells it to someone who may be willing to partner with Stark. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 6, 200718 yr ^ I wasn't sure being the "green" around the lot. I guess there are trees there and stark's project is outlined in red. I didn't study it that closely. I still think it is unbelievable that in 2007 this is a surface lot. Stark/Jacobs, whoever, it is a shame not to have ANYTHING other than a surface lot on the NW corner of Public Square. One would think DJ would make more $$ than his current revenues by selling this property.
January 6, 200718 yr According to the website, pre-sales are projected to begin Jan 2008, w/construction completed in Nov 2010. Looks like they're trying to raise capital for this. They also expect the avg price to be over $1MM which is around $400/sq ft. Given that the Pinnacle's Penthouses were only in the upper $300s, seems aggressive to average over $400... I'm skeptical on this one.
January 6, 200718 yr Author j73, the website for which project? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 6, 200718 yr Author I'm also skeptical. I'm glad they're keeping Courthouse Plaza alive as a project, but I have heard them say that for a while. I guess we'll find out in a year or so. They do have a nice new rendering of the tower! See below... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 6, 200718 yr Author That's true. I didn't pay close attention to its "exoskeleton" look. It seems that style was pioneered by Jacobs Field, where the designers went for an industrial look with its pipes and tubes and the light standards made to resemble smoke stacks (although some think they look more like toothbrushes). I hope the industrial style is a recurring theme, which offers a more interesting facade than what has become the stereotypical "new urbanist" architectural genre. Nice to have a "Cleveland"-style of building. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 6, 200718 yr ^Yup: kind of yuck if you ask me. great, now cleveland is a bunch of choosers when it comes to high rise construction.
January 6, 200718 yr great, now cleveland is a bunch of choosers when it comes to high rise construction. We shouldn't accept anything other that well designed buildings.
January 7, 200718 yr To me, it looks more like some hotel on Miami Beach. Pretty generic. It's very Miami Beach in design & $$$.
January 7, 200718 yr great, now cleveland is a bunch of choosers when it comes to high rise construction. We shouldn't accept anything other that well designed buildings. its not like this thing is a giant tumor on the city
January 7, 200718 yr Author I don't have a problem with the basic design. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 7, 200718 yr I don't like the central core (I'm assuming that it's an elevator core, at least), though it would depend on what the material is going to be. I like the bowed out penthouse floor.
January 7, 200718 yr i like the rendering. I'd buy! can you buy me one too? LOL oh papal one. LOL We can work something out! Keep in mind you would have to change your name from "the pope" to "indentured servant".
January 7, 200718 yr Come home, Cleveland Center of the city blossoms with new, for-sale housing Sunday, January 07, 2007 Henry J. Gomez Plain Dealer Reporter Link to Map of Housing Projects:http://www.cleveland.com/business/wide/index.ssf?/business/wide/destinationdowntown.html Nationwide, developers worried about the volatility of residential real estate are shying away from for-sale housing projects. But not in downtown Cleveland. There, realty firms can't buy and dig up land fast enough... To reach this Plain Dealer reporter: [email protected], 216-999-5405 http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business/116807597834530.xml&coll=2
January 7, 200718 yr I HATE this line: "And 2007 should bring more details about Bob Stark's vision for the Warehouse District, where the Crocker Park developer hopes to replicate his suburban-lifestyle center concept. " Gomez got it all wrong! Idiot!
January 7, 200718 yr ahh come on, let's give'm a break here. i am so glad to see this, i was surprised and i enjoyed seeing that article. this is practically new grounds for the peedee - a relatively positive story about downtown housing? heh. why is it amazing to see an article like that in the paper? shouldn't be. so imo he gets a pass on that one misinterpretation for the general positive tone, such a rarity for the peedee, and for all the other things he got right. i sure hope gomez follows up on all these projects regularly. even if not, we know kjp will. and others too via alternative media sources, like uo! i think this calls for a letter/email. i want to support this, esp if we want to see more like it.
January 7, 200718 yr Author When I read that part, I could tell that the text would turn Stark's stomach when he got around to reading it. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 7, 200718 yr i think this calls for a letter/email. i want to support this, esp if we want to see more like it. I understand what you're saying and agree. When I read that, I sent Gomez an email, asking him to checkout UO.
January 7, 200718 yr I HATE this line: "And 2007 should bring more details about Bob Stark's vision for the Warehouse District, where the Crocker Park developer hopes to replicate his suburban-lifestyle center concept. " Gomez got it all wrong! Idiot! Did he get it wrong? If Pesht looks anything like the blandola stuff at Crocker Park or the cheesefest that is Eton Collection, I'd say Gomez is describing the project pretty accurately. Building a mixed use nabe from ground up, designed by a single firm, with pre-signed chain store leases is definitely the "suburban-lifestyle center concept" more than it is traditional urban development, so I have no beef with Gomez even if he misses the irony. Mind you, I'm not complaining about Pesht, just making a semantic observation.
January 7, 200718 yr Strap is right. Without multiple firms designing Pesht it will be basically a complete repeat of Crocker Park. However, based off of his forum at CSU a couple months ago, he intends on having multiple design firms work on the project. Hopefully he picks the right people to do this and it becomes an interesting play of exisiting historical architecture vs. the contemporary.
January 7, 200718 yr This should probably be in another thread, but... I think it's unfair to describe Stark's vision for the WD as a replication of Crocker Park. Every time I've heard Stark talk about it, he has emphasized the importance of design in the project as well as the need to integrate new buildings with old. It's highly unlikely he'll use one designer for his whole Y-concept, assuming it comes to fruition, though I could see the superblock between W. 3rd and W. 6th (Phase One) having a single designer.
January 7, 200718 yr ^ and ^^: good news that Stark seems to be headed towards multiple designers. I hope he does so even within each phase. I still worry about Stark's taste though... But I'll stop being a downer. Funny thing is, the very oldest US suburban lifestyle centers (Shaker Square, Country Club Plaza, Lake Forest Plaza (or whatever that one is called)) draw much of their charm from the fact that they were designed as unified wholes, or at least related groups...
January 7, 200718 yr Funny thing is, the very oldest US suburban lifestyle centers (Shaker Square, Country Club Plaza, Lake Forest Plaza (or whatever that one is called)) draw much of their charm from the fact that they were designed as unified wholes, or at least related groups... And those "centers" and the housing in close proximity, compliment each other.
Create an account or sign in to comment