March 25, 20214 yr Can we take the Jacobs lot back from Sherwin and give it to Cliffs? Whatever sized office building they end up with would be a better fit. If they go some sort of mixed over parking, we could have something substantial.
March 26, 20214 yr 14 hours ago, KJP said: Thursday, March 25, 2021 Seven proposed office towers in Cleveland? Yep, seven. It's a contradiction. Cleveland and the rest of the nation are in the midst of an historic office market slowdown that will likely last well into the post-pandemic era. And yet, Cleveland may be the recipient of up to seven new office towers in the next five years or so -- six of those could rise downtown and one in University Circle. That's a stunning possibility for two reasons. MORE https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2021/03/seven-proposed-office-towers-in.html I don't think the article mentioned the office building that might be built close to SW HQ at W 3rd and St. Clair. Is that still a possibility?
March 26, 20214 yr 4 hours ago, PoshSteve said: Can we take the Jacobs lot back from Sherwin and give it to Cliffs? Whatever sized office building they end up with would be a better fit. If they go some sort of mixed over parking, we could have something substantial. Agreed that anything over a 2-story structure is better on Public Square, except NO Parking structure on public square!
March 26, 20214 yr On 3/25/2021 at 7:34 AM, KJP said: Thursday, March 25, 2021 Seven proposed office towers in Cleveland? Yep, seven. It's a contradiction. Cleveland and the rest of the nation are in the midst of an historic office market slowdown that will likely last well into the post-pandemic era. And yet, Cleveland may be the recipient of up to seven new office towers in the next five years or so -- six of those could rise downtown and one in University Circle. That's a stunning possibility for two reasons. MORE https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2021/03/seven-proposed-office-towers- Edited March 26, 20214 yr by gruver
March 26, 20214 yr 36 minutes ago, gruver said: One simply should not look at law firms, or their perceived “growth,” as a basis for new tower developments in Cleveland. While the Cleveland legal market is certainly talented, it is simply NOT growing in any material way — much like Cleveland. Rather, it is a game of musical chairs. The truly national law firms in town have rates structures which local businesses (with a few exceptions) simply can no longer afford. Consequently, the attorneys who worked at those national law firms have simply moved to the mid-market firms mentioned (and not mentioned) in this article. Law firms in Cleveland are not flying in new attorneys from around the country to work in Cleveland. Rather, Cleveland attorneys are simply walking across the street from their “national” law firm to regional, mid-market law firms —creating the “growth“ that their new firms ballyhoo. A now-empty office at Squire and a newly-occupied office at Benesch does not build a skyscraper. And, for what it’s worth, the average musical-chair-60-year-old-lawyer will not be eager to make a capital contribution to his “new, growing firm” simply so some law student he or she has never met and will never meet can work in “new growing firm tower” when he or she is retired. Law firms are not builders. They are followers, they are cheap, and they’re certainly not throwing girders in the sky. I'm not sure about the situation and intentions of McDonald Hopkins, but Benesch has already dedicated themselves to leasing the new office space at Nucleus. They committed quite awhile ago, so unless they back out now, lawyers are in fact throwing girders in the sky.
March 26, 20214 yr Author @gruver I did not choose to include those two law firms because they are "growing" by whatever definition that means. They chose to be included in my article by actively planning a new office building either on their own or in partnership with others. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 26, 20214 yr There’s always someone waiting to pee in the punch bowl. Smh. I think most rational people understood why @KJPput those firms in that article, because they’re actively making moves that would justify being in said article
March 26, 20214 yr ^Nonetheless, it was interesting to read @gruver's post as it provided an insight into the CLE law firm scene about which I had little knowledge. However, it looks like he has since deleted his comment. Edited March 26, 20214 yr by Pugu
March 26, 20214 yr I deleted it because it was viewed as argumentative, and I don't want to argue. That said, I think it is a very accurate view of Cleveland's legal market.
March 26, 20214 yr 14 hours ago, jeremyck01 said: I don't think the article mentioned the office building that might be built close to SW HQ at W 3rd and St. Clair. Is that still a possibility? @KJPany thoughts on the above? I'd be glad to know that this is still being planned. Thanks.
March 26, 20214 yr Author 1 hour ago, jeremyck01 said: @KJPany thoughts on the above? I'd be glad to know that this is still being planned. Thanks. Like the Circle Square office building, no tenants have been identified for the Magellan development. Magellan won't build anything on spec here. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 26, 20214 yr 18 minutes ago, KJP said: Like the Circle Square office building, no tenants have been identified for the Magellan development. Magellan won't build anything on spec here. Thank you. The Magellan plan is good, so fingers crossed they can find some interest out there.
March 26, 20214 yr Author Keep an eye on Moen in North Olmsted. They've outgrown their HQ and will reportedly start looking for a new building after the pandemic. They're just one of a few HQs potentially on the move. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 26, 20214 yr 2 minutes ago, KJP said: Keep an eye on Moen in North Olmsted. They've outgrown their HQ and will reportedly start looking for a new building after the pandemic. They're just one of a few HQs potentially on the move. What?! That would be huge. Are they looking at moving downtown?
March 26, 20214 yr 3 minutes ago, KJP said: Keep an eye on Moen in North Olmsted. They've outgrown their HQ and will reportedly start looking for a new building after the pandemic. They're just one of a few HQs potentially on the move. And who are the other HQs @KJP?!?
March 26, 20214 yr 9 minutes ago, KJP said: Keep an eye on Moen in North Olmsted. They've outgrown their HQ and will reportedly start looking for a new building after the pandemic. They're just one of a few HQs potentially on the move. I remember you referencing that they may not be committed to the region. Is that still the case? Have you heard anything about where they might look if they remain in the region?
March 26, 20214 yr Author 15 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said: What?! That would be huge. Are they looking at moving downtown? Don't know. NO will put on a full-court press to keep them. They already lost FM Global to downtown. Moen's HQ is in another league, however. 14 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said: And who are the other HQs @KJP?!? Can't say yet, but they're growing, medium-sized firms of about 250-300 HQ employees. 8 minutes ago, cle_guy90 said: I remember you referencing that they may not be committed to the region. Is that still the case? Have you heard anything about where they might look if they remain in the region? I think Moen would like to stay, and their NO property does have room for expansion especially if they build a parking structure. But anything is possible, including a move downtown to boost recruiting. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 26, 20214 yr 24 minutes ago, KJP said: Don't know. NO will put on a full-court press to keep them. They already lost FM Global to downtown. Moen's HQ is in another league, however. ... I think Moen would like to stay, and their NO property does have room for expansion especially if they build a parking structure. But anything is possible, including a move downtown to boost recruiting. Just curious--is any entity trying to lure them to Downtown? Even if just telling them they'd be able to attract the latest, hottest talent? The City of Cleveland is too lethargic to go after any company or will cite the 'anti-poaching' agreement, while the suburbs actively try to steal jobs from the city. TeamNEO/Cuyahoga County would never do it as both No Olmsted and Downtown are in the same region. Downtown Cleveland Alliance could do this type of activity, but do they?
March 26, 20214 yr Author Haven't heard "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 26, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, cle_guy90 said: I remember you referencing that they may not be committed to the region. Is that still the case? Have you heard anything about where they might look if they remain in the region? They've got 33 Cleveland job openings posted on their website. If they planned on leaving in a year or so, I would expect a hiring freeze to be in effect. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
March 26, 20214 yr Author 1 hour ago, Dougal said: They've got 33 Cleveland job openings posted on their website. If they planned on leaving in a year or so, I would expect a hiring freeze to be in effect. Do the job descriptions say "work in a trophy-class office tower in a dynamic urban setting" by chance? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 28, 20214 yr On 3/26/2021 at 2:38 PM, Pugu said: Just curious--is any entity trying to lure them to Downtown? Even if just telling them they'd be able to attract the latest, hottest talent? The City of Cleveland is too lethargic to go after any company or will cite the 'anti-poaching' agreement, while the suburbs actively try to steal jobs from the city. TeamNEO/Cuyahoga County would never do it as both No Olmsted and Downtown are in the same region. Downtown Cleveland Alliance could do this type of activity, but do they? Downtown Cleveland Alliance's business development department is ALWAYS trying to lure new companies to locate Downtown. They are paid by the existing Downtown real estate owners to promote Downtown Cleveland as the best place to Live, Work, and Play. That is one of their PRIME OBJECTIVES, besides the cleaning and safety ambassador program. Edited March 28, 20214 yr by Larry1962 Typos
March 31, 20214 yr Author Sheesh, now I'm starting to lose track of everything that's being planned. I doubt that it's all going to get built. But man, the stuff that's entering the pipeline is mind blowing and certainly some of it is going to see a groundbreaking. I've given some tastes of what's coming especially in the articles at the start and end of this month: https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2021/03/. But there's more in the works. A lot more. Buckle-up kids! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 1, 20214 yr Author April Fools! Wait, maybe they're serious.... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 23, 20214 yr Not sure where best to put this so feel free to move: Tonight on the CHEERS virtual meeting I asked about the status of the Superior Ave. Midway project. Freddy Collier answered my question that the city is looking into filling in the funding gaps to get this started. He did not say explicitly but based on his hinting, I have to guess that the stimulus money the city will be receiving may be able to be put towards this project and others. I was excited to hear that this seemed to be a priority to him and to the city. It is truly transformational and will connect to the CHEERS area via E. 55th. I’m hoping some of this money could also go to Public Square and the removal of the barriers, although that was not mentioned.
April 26, 20214 yr Author 8 minutes ago, skiwest said: I know the pandemic hasn't helped, but do downtown development projects move at a snails pace in every city or only in Cleveland? Moving from the SHW HQ thread, Cleveland developments do take longer than in cities with high growth, high rent and/or lower construction costs. The primary reason why Cleveland developments take longer is due to the accumulation of capital construction funds which invariably require a subsidy of some kind. The larger the project, the larger the subsidy and the more complex it becomes. Multiple sources of subsidies are usually incurred in large projects, especially when the project involves a complicated piece of land than has or had multiple owners, multiple parcels and especially toxic uses from prior owners that incurs liability for new users. Since almost any problem in any construction project can be overcome with more money, when you have a project in a high-rent city, more investors/lenders/equity partners are willing to throw money at you to fix the problem. I posted this in a NEOtrans article last year... Greater Cleveland is the nation's 15th-most expensive metro to build an office building yet the region has the nation's third-cheapest office rents, eclipsed by only Albuquerque and Louisville. According to EVstudio.com and adjusted for inflation, it costs more to build a 5- to 10-story office building in Cleveland than in Washington DC, Denver, Miami, Phoenix, Atlanta, Houston or Dallas. https://evstudio.com/price-per-square-foot-construction-cost-for-multi-story-office-buildings/ https://f.tlcollect.com/fr2/418/63842/MarketFlash_Louisville_Office_Market_Affordability_-_2nd_in_US_-_5-15-18.pdf "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 26, 20214 yr ^One major caveat on that construction costs point: land acquisition is still much, much cheaper in Cleveland than in high cost cities, so total development costs are still going be lower than some or all of those other cities.
April 26, 20214 yr Author Which is why we are starting to see some out-of-town developers set up stakes here. Another factor is that are rents are starting to creep up to where the capital stacks are becoming much less complicated to assemble. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 26, 20214 yr But why are construction costs so high here when compared to other metros? What’s the reason? If it makes the region less competitive, how can the issue be addressed?
April 26, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, Oldmanladyluck said: But why are construction costs so high here when compared to other metros? What’s the reason? If it makes the region less competitive, how can the issue be addressed? I don't know anything for certain, but I have a feeling its labor, and not the whole "union labor is so much more expensive" argument. Being low growth for so long, we just don't have the amount of qualified tradespeople other metros do. The ones we do have are always busy now with the number of projects taking off, and so the people who really need them are going to pay more to have them. Edited April 26, 20214 yr by PoshSteve
May 2, 20214 yr Crain's headline (no account so cannot read it) indicates 45 Eriview could be sold to Bluelofts Inc. and a Dallas area investor and redeveloped into a live space with hundreds of residential units and coworking spaces. Curious about the details as it has been suggested in the past on the forum that a residential conversion of 45 was impossible or at least very difficult due to the size and configuration of the floor plates.
May 2, 20214 yr Author I was made aware of this development last January and wrote an article about it in February but was asked to sit on it until it transferred. It still hasn't transferred but since Crain's reported it, I've posted my article.... Sunday, May 2, 2021 45 Erieview Plaza has a buyer and a plan According to sources who spoke off the record, the former Ohio Bell Telephone headquarters now called 45 Erieview Plaza has a buyer with a plan. While the details of the project are still being developed, it reportedly will be a mixed-use development with 280 residential units, a couple floors of offices and some retail. The buyer's name was revealed by the sources but asked that it not be publicized for the time being. However, the buyer is from out-of-state, showing the growing interest by outside investors in Cleveland real estate. MORE https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2021/02/45-erieview-plaza-has-buyer-and-plan.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 2, 20214 yr In Dallas, it looks like they'll put a FLOOR of apartments wherever they can find a vacant floor in an office bldg: "We want to put these units wherever we can find a vacant floor of offices," said Bluelofts' partner Ike Bams. "There is a shortage of urban residential units.... Working with a German manufacturer, Bluelofts has created a modular "box" for its apartments that includes the kitchen, the bathroom and all the plumbing. "It's a plug-and-play approach," said Bluelofts' John Williams. "This box has a bathroom in the inside and a kitchen on the outside. "It comes prebuilt and plugs into the building systems," he said. "We don't have to drill through the floors....." https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2018/11/21/empty-office-floors-will-become-bluelofts-live-work-centers-in-dallas-towers/
May 2, 20214 yr Like KJP talked about in his blog article a couple days ago, it looks like there is a decent chance for the state lawmakers to amend the 10% tax credit law to EXTEND the length by another two years! Legislative fix likely for new state tax credit program for ‘transformational' projects: With $100 million in much-anticipated tax credits set to evaporate on June 30, state lawmakers are exploring ways to preserve the incentives for challenging real estate deals. The Ohio Development Services Agency has been working to roll out a new tax credit program for so-called "transformational" mixed-use projects, which won legislative approval in late 2020. Developers are watching the bureaucratic process with bated breath. https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/legislative-fix-likely-new-state-tax-credit-program-transformational-projects
May 2, 20214 yr 3 hours ago, KJP said: I was made aware of this development last January and wrote an article about it in February but was asked to sit on it until it transferred. It still hasn't transferred but since Crain's reported it, I've posted my article.... Sunday, May 2, 2021 45 Erieview Plaza has a buyer and a plan According to sources who spoke off the record, the former Ohio Bell Telephone headquarters now called 45 Erieview Plaza has a buyer with a plan. While the details of the project are still being developed, it reportedly will be a mixed-use development with 280 residential units, a couple floors of offices and some retail. The buyer's name was revealed by the sources but asked that it not be publicized for the time being. However, the buyer is from out-of-state, showing the growing interest by outside investors in Cleveland real estate. MORE https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2021/02/45-erieview-plaza-has-buyer-and-plan.html Interesting. I didn't expect a possible residential conversion, considering how huge the floorplates are. I'd like to see their floor plans, as I imagine there's going to be some dark interiors. That, along with the groups lack of experience in any of these types of projects, and that it always seems like Texas firms coming to Cleveland can never follow through with any of their ideas, I don't really expect anything to happen here. Good luck to them though, and I hope I'm proved wrong.
May 2, 20214 yr 9 minutes ago, PoshSteve said: Interesting. I didn't expect a possible residential conversion, considering how huge the floorplates are. I'd like to see their floor plans, as I imagine there's going to be some dark interiors. That, along with the groups lack of experience in any of these types of projects, and that it always seems like Texas firms coming to Cleveland can never follow through with any of their ideas, I don't really expect anything to happen here. Good luck to them though, and I hope I'm proved wrong. why dark interiors? with a large floorplate, you can create very nice, spacious units and even 4,5,6-BR units which are really hard to find in the city. Such units are virtually non-existent in the city, yet there is obviously some demand---those people are just pushed into single-family units whether they want to be or not.
May 2, 20214 yr I don't think that the 4,5,6 bedroom units Downtown are going to bring in the families with children you want. More likely they are going to turn into frat houses. At least, that was my experience with the larger units in the building I lived in Downtown.
May 2, 20214 yr 13 minutes ago, X said: I don't think that the 4,5,6 bedroom units Downtown are going to bring in the families with children you want. More likely they are going to turn into frat houses. At least, that was my experience with the larger units in the building I lived in Downtown. How much demand in the real estate market is there for any type of residence, either houses or apartments, for 5 or 6 bedrooms? How much would it cost in monthly rent for newly created apartments for that number of bedrooms and the number of bathrooms to go along with it?
May 2, 20214 yr Author 2 hours ago, PoshSteve said: Interesting. I didn't expect a possible residential conversion, considering how huge the floorplates are. I'd like to see their floor plans, as I imagine there's going to be some dark interiors. That, along with the groups lack of experience in any of these types of projects, and that it always seems like Texas firms coming to Cleveland can never follow through with any of their ideas, I don't really expect anything to happen here. Good luck to them though, and I hope I'm proved wrong. Originally, they proposed hollowing out the center of the building as Geis did with May Company. But it would've been too expensive and the floorplates are much smaller than May's. 45 Erieview's floorplates are a problem. They're too big for many uses other than perhaps a call center and too small to open up in the center. The buyer has money but that's about it. If they can pull this off, it will be because they paid their way to success. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 2, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, X said: I don't think that the 4,5,6 bedroom units Downtown are going to bring in the families with children you want. More likely they are going to turn into frat houses. At least, that was my experience with the larger units in the building I lived in Downtown. Certainly the owner/landlord can pick his residents, no (with exception to being on the basis of color, national origin, gender, etc.)? So he/she can stipulate families or maximum resident numbers of a different last name if that were the case. But a high price should automatically eliminate the frat people. If the rent on a 6-bedroom was $12,000 and the max residency was 6--that would mean each fratboy would pay $2,000, making it out of reach for a typical fratboy.
May 2, 20214 yr CBIZ in Independence is looking for office space downtown. Could this be a possible location for them?
May 2, 20214 yr 2 hours ago, X said: I don't think that the 4,5,6 bedroom units Downtown are going to bring in the families with children you want. More likely they are going to turn into frat houses. At least, that was my experience with the larger units in the building I lived in Downtown. Yes, because multiple kids requires more space than simply multiple bedrooms, at least for the people that can afford these kinds of places. Each kid needs play area, and to be honest there is also often a need for them to separate themselves, or be separated.
May 2, 20214 yr 7 hours ago, Pugu said: In Dallas, it looks like they'll put a FLOOR of apartments wherever they can find a vacant floor in an office bldg: "We want to put these units wherever we can find a vacant floor of offices," said Bluelofts' partner Ike Bams. "There is a shortage of urban residential units.... Working with a German manufacturer, Bluelofts has created a modular "box" for its apartments that includes the kitchen, the bathroom and all the plumbing. "It's a plug-and-play approach," said Bluelofts' John Williams. "This box has a bathroom in the inside and a kitchen on the outside. "It comes prebuilt and plugs into the building systems," he said. "We don't have to drill through the floors....." https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2018/11/21/empty-office-floors-will-become-bluelofts-live-work-centers-in-dallas-towers/ This makes a ton of sense especially for kidless people, as one can live and work in the same building if so inclined.
May 2, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, E Rocc said: This makes a ton of sense especially for kidless people, as one can live and work in the same building if so inclined. Why just kidless people? Millions of children live in buildings.
May 2, 20214 yr 4 hours ago, Pugu said: why dark interiors? with a large floorplate, you can create very nice, spacious units and even 4,5,6-BR units which are really hard to find in the city. Such units are virtually non-existent in the city, yet there is obviously some demand---those people are just pushed into single-family units whether they want to be or not. There's only so many windows available. Even with large apartments with multiple bedrooms, you'd end up with either long apartments so they can all get a window (and then no income generating use for the interiors of the floor plates), or deep apartments with bedrooms without any windows and dark interiors. Edited May 2, 20214 yr by PoshSteve
May 2, 20214 yr 31 minutes ago, PoshSteve said: There's only so many windows available. Even with large apartments with multiple bedrooms, you'd end up with either long apartments so they can all get a window (and then no income generating use for the interiors of the floor plates), or deep apartments with bedrooms without any windows and dark interiors. The latter of which is not legal if I remember the City's housing code correctly.
May 2, 20214 yr Would be cool if they could build another exterior wall inside and take out windows to create open balconies on that curved facade. That modular kitchen/ bathroom thing is awesome. Looks like a Knoll furniture dealer had their showroom in the lobby at one point too. That's cool. Maybe they could do a larger pie shaped unit similar to Marina City in Chicago with huge balconies Edited May 2, 20214 yr by metrocity
May 2, 20214 yr Author 1 hour ago, Pugu said: Why just kidless people? Millions of children live in buildings. As I do with my wife and son. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
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