9 minutes ago, MayDay said:

This already exists on Lakeside in front of Public Auditorium. It’s not extensive and not sure of the backstory but it’s there.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5042959,-81.6938791,3a,75y,97.95h,82.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7fuZ0a55obR_tuu4-Q732w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Was just going to mention these. LIke a lot of things done in Cleveland from the mid-90s to today, it was a half-hearted attempt at best. These things should be all over the place: downtown, all the Agora locations, the old Leo's Casino, hell I'd even throw one down at the old Front Row.

 

ETA: Definitely need one for Swingos as well.

Edited June 29, 20231 yr by Ineffable_Matt

2 hours ago, ArtDecoSquirrel said:

You see ads for the Rock Hall at the Airport, but really nowhere else. But I am officially dreaming of a Rock walk of fame on Euclid Ave. Maybe each sidewalk square can be a concrete mural of a Rock Hall member, imagine that. 

 

I love this idea but close to the Rock Hall would make much more sense. And a perfect opportunity for them to incorporate this into the new expansion or part of the lakefront development. 

I also loved the idea of the speakers around town but are those even being used anymore? If not, I would focus on the same concept but keep it strictly near the Rock Hall and have them play music throughout the day from all the current inductees. It really is not that hard, set an ON/OFF timer for every day, have a playlist created and hit shuffle.

1 hour ago, Luke_S said:

 

Why Euclid? I feel like it would make more sense to be E9th leading to the Rock Hall. 

I might be crazy, but wasn't E 9th once named "Rock N Roll Blvd"?   I swear I remember seeing the signs. 

49 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

I might be crazy, but wasn't E 9th once named "Rock N Roll Blvd"?   I swear I remember seeing the signs. 

 

I think it still may be, at least north of the Shoreway. The Rock Hall's address on their website is 1100 Rock and Roll Boulevard Cleveland, Ohio 44114

2 hours ago, MayDay said:

This already exists on Lakeside in front of Public Auditorium. It’s not extensive and not sure of the backstory but it’s there.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5042959,-81.6938791,3a,75y,97.95h,82.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7fuZ0a55obR_tuu4-Q732w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

These are actually what I was referencing when I said we stopped pursuing it because I remember starting it but we never continued and I find that to be confusing. 

I was thinking of something like this. And my pick was Euclid Ave since it seems to me the most pedestrian interactive in downtown. 

Edited June 29, 20231 yr by ArtDecoSquirrel

13 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

These are actually what I was referencing when I said we stopped pursuing it because I remember starting it but we never continued and I find that to be confusing. 

Yea, it would be great of these records created a path that led to the Rock Hall. I mentioned that here like 15 years ago! Lol.

 

Maybe this new bridge from the Civic center to the stadium can incorporate these leading to the Rock Hall.

Yea, it would be great of these records created a path that led to the Rock Hall. I mentioned that here like 15 years ago! Lol.
 
Maybe this new bridge from the Civic center to the stadium can incorporate these leading to the Rock Hall.

It should start with a mini museum redeveloped at the original location on Prospect where Moondog first coined the phrase “Rock n Roll”, then down to the lake. Like Cleveland’s own Freedom Trail only hokier.


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Great video on the lower level of the Detrot-Superior bridge with footage of the abandoned subway tunnels 

 

Edited July 1, 20231 yr by sonisharri

Construction fencing up at the Casino. Anyone know what this is for?

^ I think its there to facilitate things taking shape.

Side bar, but I can't believe the Park Building still has the protective bracing. It needs to be fixed.

50 minutes ago, marty15 said:

Construction fencing up at the Casino. Anyone know what this is for?

 

49 minutes ago, Ineffable_Matt said:

^ I think its there to facilitate things taking shape.

Whatever it's for, the temporary signage totally blocks the pedestrian walk/don't walk signs on the SW corner. The traffic pattern there is already a bit confusing and now you have no way of knowing when you are safe to cross the street. A simple cut out in the sign would do it, but of course no one was thinking of pedestrians. 

1 hour ago, oblate said:

 

Whatever it's for, the temporary signage totally blocks the pedestrian walk/don't walk signs on the SW corner. The traffic pattern there is already a bit confusing and now you have no way of knowing when you are safe to cross the street. A simple cut out in the sign would do it, but of course no one was thinking of pedestrians. 

They put up a sign saying "sidewalk closed," so they thought of pedestrians, but only to discount them...

@marty15 I wrote about this two years and wondered if it ever got done. Perhaps this is finally it....

 

https://neo-trans.blog/2021/07/31/higbees-public-square-facade-to-add-outdoor-gambling/

I thought they did that already. put screens up on the windows and called it a patio

1 hour ago, Ethan said:

They put up a sign saying "sidewalk closed," so they thought of pedestrians, but only to discount them...

Good point. Of course that sign only refers to a portion of the sidewalk on the west side of Ontario being closed and doesn't do anything to help pedestrians trying to cross Ontario without being able to see a walk/don't walk sign that's well-hidden. 

2 hours ago, KJP said:

@marty15 I wrote about this two years and wondered if it ever got done. Perhaps this is finally it....

 

https://neo-trans.blog/2021/07/31/higbees-public-square-facade-to-add-outdoor-gambling/

I thought that was already completed. They finished it by putting in those massive concrete planters with the fake plants. I’m hoping they’re fixing that ugly mess.

Didn’t realize until yesterday that they finished the work on the west side market



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Some of the brick replacement/matching is disappointing.

On 7/7/2023 at 7:52 AM, marty15 said:

Construction fencing up at the Casino. Anyone know what this is for?

I sense hostile architecture incoming. When they closed off the front entrance to create their smokers' patio, they also created a space for downtown's unhoused population to seek haven from the elements between the planters. I suspect enough complaints have been lodged that more action is being taken. Or maybe I'm just cynical.

30 minutes ago, JeTDoG said:

I sense hostile architecture incoming. When they closed off the front entrance to create their smokers' patio, they also created a space for downtown's unhoused population to seek haven from the elements between the planters. I suspect enough complaints have been lodged that more action is being taken. Or maybe I'm just cynical.

I don’t know what would be more hostile than those massive concrete planters with the plastic shrubs lol

8 hours ago, marty15 said:

I don’t know what would be more hostile than those massive concrete planters with the plastic shrubs lol

Jersey barriers. 

4 hours ago, ArtDecoSquirrel said:

Jersey barriers. 

With plastic shrubs. 

Cleveland ranks 4th in the US in the conversion of office space into Multi-family.  

 

Edited July 15, 20231 yr by TR

23 hours ago, TR said:

Cleveland ranks 4th in the US in the conversion of office space into Multi-family.  

 

Is there a source for this? I don't doubt it but was curious about the rankings. 

 
Is there a source for this? I don't doubt it but was curious about the rankings. 

I wouldn't be surprised to see Detroit in the Top 5.

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1 hour ago, Rustbelter said:

 

Is there a source for this? I don't doubt it but was curious about the rankings. 

 

9 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

I wouldn't be surprised to see Detroit in the Top 5.

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See the chart that begins at 1:48 of the video.  At the bottom of the chart there is a cited source.  Detroit did not make the top ten.  Also note this is just for the period 2020-2021.

Edited July 16, 20231 yr by Htsguy

#1    Washington

#2   Philly

#3   Chicago

#4  Cleveland

#5  Pittsburgh

#6   Richmond

#7  New York

#8  Greenville

#9  Kansas City

#10  Salt Lake City

I guess l look at this as a double edge sword. On one hand it's great that we're re-purpousing underused office space into residential housing. On the other hand it's not good that those businesses no longer need that space. Sure, some of them have made a lateral move from an old building downtown into a newer building downtown but many of them downsized or just left downtown (or the region) altogether. 

I look at WFH as the perfect opportunity for Cleveland to boom. With non-hybrid WFH you are 100% virtual, meaning you can work from wherever your heart desires. I know an old coworker that was hired to work at our national offices in Virginia. Due to the 100% virtual nature of his job he chose to live in his dream city of Los Angeles instead of in Virginia.

This is Cleveland's prime opportunity to appeal to those working virtually in NYC, LA, Chicago etc. Show those people that we have a city that you can live in and love from Day 1. Obviously affordability will be the first thing that's a draw but we need to show them other things that make Cleveland look like a STEAL.

Affordability, a great city for families, singles etc. We could have the residents in those aforementioned cities coming here in droves.

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1 hour ago, cadmen said:

I guess l look at this as a double edge sword. On one hand it's great that we're re-purpousing underused office space into residential housing. On the other hand it's not good that those businesses no longer need that space. Sure, some of them have made a lateral move from an old building downtown into a newer building downtown but many of them downsized or just left downtown (or the region) altogether. 

I get the feeling, but isn't the damage in that regard long past now? When was the last time 55 Public Square was even 75% full? What about 75 Public Square? Or 925 Euclid? Or the Leader Building? I think most of the exits happened a decade plus ago.

 

In my uneducated opinion, if a building is repurposed in a way that increases its value, that's basically always a good thing. 75 Public Square and the Leader Building were bought up for $4 million and $5.4 million respectively in 2014. According to County records their values have more than tripled and almost quintupled respectively. And the property taxes actually paid by each have doubled. I think when land values and tax revenues go up simultaneously, that's a good sign that the correct development approach was followed.

2 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

I get the feeling, but isn't the damage in that regard long past now? When was the last time 55 Public Square was even 75% full? What about 75 Public Square? Or 925 Euclid? Or the Leader Building? I think most of the exits happened a decade plus ago.

 

In my uneducated opinion, if a building is repurposed in a way that increases its value, that's basically always a good thing. 75 Public Square and the Leader Building were bought up for $4 million and $5.4 million respectively in 2014. According to County records their values have more than tripled and almost quintupled respectively. And the property taxes actually paid by each have doubled. I think when land values and tax revenues go up simultaneously, that's a good sign that the correct development approach was followed.

I think this is correct to a degree. However, we haven't seen the complete fallout of the pandemic/WFH on commercial real estate. There will be a new crop of vacant office buildings including Rose Building and Landmark office towers.

Just now, freefourur said:

I think this is correct to a degree. However, we haven't seen the complete fallout of the pandemic/WFH on commercial real estate. There will be a new crop of vacant office buildings including Rose Building and Landmark office towers.

WFH is a wildcard, I agree. But I'm not aware that any residential conversions are being done or even considered so far on buildings that are vacant as a result of WFH.

 

In any event, my belief is that we're in trouble only when the residential conversions STOP. As long as whatever is coming online is being converted to residential within five years or so, that means that there are developers who think it's worth more as residential than as office, which means we're adding value. Landmark is a good example because it's occupied by SHW right now. As of 2022, there is one office building (Landmark). But as of 2030 (assuming there's a residential conversion that is done in that time) you will have one office building (new SHW HQ) and one residential building (Landmark). So how is that not an unqualified win?

 

Just to bolster my above point a little more-- You can see tax bills by year for 75 Public Sq. The online records go back to 2003. Every single tax bill from 2015 to present (while it was owned by Millennia) is higher than every single tax bill from 2003 to 2014. For Leader, the same thing is true since 2018--Every tax bill from 2018 to present is higher than every tax bill from 2003-2017. So right now both properties are consistently more productive than they've been for at least 20 years. I suspect this is true for basically every single residential conversion, and I suspect it will continue to be.

I say convert all you can, as long as there is a line of people willing to move in.  The more people who live downtown, the more there will be who will want to work there.

33 minutes ago, freefourur said:

I think this is correct to a degree. However, we haven't seen the complete fallout of the pandemic/WFH on commercial real estate. There will be a new crop of vacant office buildings including Rose Building and Landmark office towers.

 

Doesn't residential conversion help offset the losses from the WFH transition though? Assuming at least some of the people that live in a converted office space are working from home at least some of the week that is still payroll tax revenue coming into the city. 

2 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

 

Doesn't residential conversion help offset the losses from the WFH transition though? Assuming at least some of the people that live in a converted office space are working from home at least some of the week that is still payroll tax revenue coming into the city. 

Ya. And a vacant office space doesn't do anyone good. If you eat up all the commercial vacant space and demand cones back for commercial downtown it will require new construction. And developers will find a way to make it happen if the demand is strong enough. 

4 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

I look at WFH as the perfect opportunity for Cleveland to boom. With non-hybrid WFH you are 100% virtual, meaning you can work from wherever your heart desires. I know an old coworker that was hired to work at our national offices in Virginia. Due to the 100% virtual nature of his job he chose to live in his dream city of Los Angeles instead of in Virginia.

This is Cleveland's prime opportunity to appeal to those working virtually in NYC, LA, Chicago etc. Show those people that we have a city that you can live in and love from Day 1. Obviously affordability will be the first thing that's a draw but we need to show them other things that make Cleveland look like a STEAL.

Affordability, a great city for families, singles etc. We could have the residents in those aforementioned cities coming here in droves.

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What is WHF?

What is WHF?

WFH = Work from Home

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Well guys, converting a vacant and obsolete office building to residential is obviously better than leaving it empty. But my position starts before we get to that situation. I know l'm in the minority here but in my perfect little world downtown wouldn't have obsolete office space. It would have space offering a variety of price points for a variety of businesses. Class A for the premium tenants, Class B for the next level of companies and Class C for companies just starting out. Companies that can't afford all the bells snd whistles but do want to be downtown. 

 

I much more prefer that scenario to what we have today which is mostly premium companies only.

 

I want my downtown to be a hybrid one. The best of today (premium businesses, government and entertainment) coupled with the best of...say the 1940's and 1950's which had a much heavier emphasis on various levels of businesses and a heavy dose of shopping. 

 

Look, l know that's never going to happen. We're never going back. But every time a store closes or a smaller business moves out of an obsolete building (which is then ultimately converted to residential) downtown loses another piece of the old way. What can l say? I'm old enough to have one foot in a 1945 black and white and bustling downtown and one foot in today's very different version.

 

5 hours ago, cadmen said:

Well guys, converting a vacant and obsolete office building to residential is obviously better than leaving it empty. But my position starts before we get to that situation. I know l'm in the minority here but in my perfect little world downtown wouldn't have obsolete office space. It would have space offering a variety of price points for a variety of businesses. Class A for the premium tenants, Class B for the next level of companies and Class C for companies just starting out. Companies that can't afford all the bells snd whistles but do want to be downtown. 

 

I much more prefer that scenario to what we have today which is mostly premium companies only.

 

I want my downtown to be a hybrid one. The best of today (premium businesses, government and entertainment) coupled with the best of...say the 1940's and 1950's which had a much heavier emphasis on various levels of businesses and a heavy dose of shopping. 

 

Look, l know that's never going to happen. We're never going back. But every time a store closes or a smaller business moves out of an obsolete building (which is then ultimately converted to residential) downtown loses another piece of the old way. What can l say? I'm old enough to have one foot in a 1945 black and white and bustling downtown and one foot in today's very different version.

 

 

To try and ease your mind a bit take a look at the office stats from this dashboard put together by the Downtown Cleveland Alliance:

 

https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/david.jarry/viz/DowntownDataDashboard/Dashboard1

 

There is still PLENTY of office space left. Screenshot from the dashboard below. I wish it showed an over time view to help show that while yes, downtown office space is shrinking by the sqft due to conversions, there is still plenty of vacancies as you can see class B had a -35,666sqft absorption (35k more sqft was vacated than leased in Q1 for that class). The trend actually is companies in class B moving to smaller footprints in Class A so that will naturally open up more cheap commercial space for new companies.   

 

Don’t forget, 1 million sqft of sub space opens up when SHW moves. 

We marvel at Vancouver, BC's skyline. Yet downtown Cleveland has more square footage of office space while charging rents that are half of Vancouver's average per square foot. Where Vancouver clobbers us is in downtown population. Theirs is more than twice that of downtown Cleveland’s.

35 minutes ago, KJP said:

We marvel at Vancouver, BC's skyline. Yet downtown Cleveland has more square footage of office space while charging rents that are half of Vancouver's average per square foot. Where Vancouver clobbers us is in downtown population. Theirs is more than twice that of downtown Cleveland’s.

 

Vancouver is an interesting example.  I can tell you that even 20 years ago when I did some graduate student exchange seminars there that people in Vancouver's planning community were worried that residential was actually pricing a lot of office users out of Downtown.  I don't know how that has worked out for them since then, though.  Certainly they haven't slowed down on building additional apartment towers.

I've worked in the commercial real estate market for over 30 years and live in South Florida.  Downtown Miami and Brickell has a very impressive skyline.  It has about 14 million SF of office space (much of which has only recently been built) which is only 1 million more than downtown Cleveland.  As for the former SW space and also for the Centennial, this space will be counted by the commercial real estate market as vacant office until it is re-purposed as multi-family/ Hotel/ etc.  Cleveland's stats will only improve over the next few years as these conversions are completed.

@misterjoshr @zbaris87Will the city’s elimination of mandatory parking minimums move the needle much with any new or future developments? 

Depending on the location of a potential development it could help take the edge off having having to build 20% affordable units to get tax abatement starting in 2024. It essentially allows the developers to decide how much of a site he wants to dedicate to a leasable structure or parking. Should be interesting.

8 minutes ago, w28th said:

Depending on the location of a potential development it could help take the edge off having having to build 20% affordable units to get tax abatement starting in 2024. It essentially allows the developers to decide how much of a site he wants to dedicate to a leasable structure or parking. Should be interesting.

Maybe we’ll see a building boom around Rapid stations?

14 hours ago, KJP said:

We marvel at Vancouver, BC's skyline. Yet downtown Cleveland has more square footage of office space while charging rents that are half of Vancouver's average per square foot. Where Vancouver clobbers us is in downtown population. Theirs is more than twice that of downtown Cleveland’s.

One of my favorite cities , Vancouver - got to spend some quality time up there around 25 years ago - and the apartment towers were already voluminous. 
 

I “feel” like there is more demand for downtown living in Cleveland- if new,  attractive high rise living becomes available. The success of The Lumen (and I surmise, The Beacon) are anecdotal examples.
City Club’s leasing rate will be a harbinger. . 
 

 Not sure how developers make the calculation as to whether that demand is real enough to drive new construction - and I understand that current economics are more challenging than usual.  
 

With the significant cost savings possible to buyers/renters in Cleveland - combined with possible oceanic and skyline views and bigger city amenities (3 major league sport teams, world class orchestra and theatre) I would definitely expect a continuation of downtown’s residential growth.  The question might be whether or not there’s enough of a job market to drive the growth to the next level. 
 

The city has not made the shift from industrial to technical/21st century economy as quickly as some competitors, like Pittsburgh - but I wonder what UO Forumers thinks about our chances of catching up and being truly competitive in the next decade or two.  
 

Meanwhile, I’m rooting hard for the continued growth of the downtown residential trend - a strong urban core will benefit the Greater Cleveland region in general. 

Edited July 19, 20231 yr by CleveFan