You can't count on the average suburbanite coming downtown to eat at a chain restaurant every now and then to resuscitate downtown. A chain restaurant, by itself, will not do much to bring suburbanites downtown. And if the goal of Cleveland urban development is to bring suburbanites downtown, then you all are in trouble.

You can't count on the average suburbanite coming downtown to eat at a chain restaurant every now and then to resuscitate downtown. A chain restaurant, by itself, will not do much to bring suburbanites downtown. And if the goal of Cleveland urban development is to bring suburbanites downtown, then you all are in trouble.

 

1. Getting suburbanites downtown is only part of the goal. No one says that is the one and only goal. You are taking things out of context.

 

2. There are a lot of suburbanites and exurbanites who come downtown for sporting events. Many do not go to the Lola's and the Saigons for various reasons. if a Cadillac Ranch can capture part of the market that is currently slipping away, then it could be a good thing for downtown.

Badge, And what, in your opinion, should be the goal of Cleveland urban development? You're very good at saying what shouldn't be. I'm interested to hear your opinion what should be.

Am I allowed to be disappointed by Cadillac Ranch on the grounds of taste alone?

 

On a more serious note...are any of the downtown residents (E4th in particular) concerned that there could be a 1980s flats-like circus on the horizon for lower Euclid if the spin-off that E4th is creating is going to look like this?  One new place is not a pattern but what if another giant cheesy place opens in the retail space of 515 Euclid (which certainly seems possible given the owner's statement in response to the furniture plan).  I'm not predicting doom and gloom, but curious how the residents feel about this.  I also suppose it matters if people rent or own down there.

I see your concern, Strap, but I'm not certain it could head that way - East 4th street is still a much quieter street when compared to the Warehouse District, and it certainly is behind in the number of bars (loud or otherwise) and clubs. 

Am I allowed to be disappointed by Cadillac Ranch on the grounds of taste alone?

 

On a more serious note...are any of the downtown residents (E4th in particular) concerned that there could be a 1980s flats-like circus on the horizon for lower Euclid if the spin-off that E4th is creating is going to look like this?  One new place is not a pattern but what if another giant cheesy place opens in the retail space of 515 Euclid (which certainly seems possible given the owner's statement in response to the furniture plan).  I'm not predicting doom and gloom, but curious how the residents feel about this.  I also suppose it matters if people rent or own down there.

 

I don't live on east 4th, but I'm concerened... i'm starting to get very nervous about the direction this is taking. :oops:

 

And I think straps point is all of the sudden you have this place opening up (with no real direction for the building), you've got Goldberg blatantly stating that's the direction he'd like to take the 515 garage... yes, I think circus definitely comes to my mind.

I have not really been to the warhouse district in a long time, however, what is the status on it?  Based on the bars along 6th and 9th, is it going in the direction of the Flats. 

I really have no idea what you guys are worrying over.  Seriously.  One restaurant comes - and what's with all the Cadillac Ranch hate anyway, it's just a restaurant- and we're now concerning outselves with, what, Public Square becoming more inhospitable.  So what if there's variety in that area - and by variety I mean ONE restaurant that we know of - and people are fretting?

 

I mean, McClev, you're getting "very nervous" about the area's direction due to one restaurant.  Hell, it could be a hooters or a BW3 and I'd be happy to have it. 

 

Given a choice, I would much rather have a Flats zoo than what we have now in Public Square.  But again, one restaurant is coming by and all of the sudden we're making up issues?? 

For me it's hard to say because I never knew the Flats in its heyday, however, I do feel that the Warehouse District has gotten lax with its dress codes.  However, I think the closing of Spy Bar & the reopening of that as an Irish Bar bodes well (isn't it the same owner as Garage Bar), but we'll see.  I don't think it'll go like the Flats because it's mixed-use, has for sale properties, is a true neighborhood, and I would hope that no one wants to repeat what has happened before.

Given a choice, I would much rather have a Flats zoo than what we have now in Public Square.  But again, one restaurant is coming by and all of the sudden we're making up issues?? 

 

^You mean the Flats zoo that was so sustainable that it was completely bulldozed to the ground so a developer could literally start over from scratch?  I think I'd have to disagree with you there if we are discussing visions for downtown.

 

I am really not predicting doom and gloom.  But I am entirely sympathetic if people (particularly downtown residential stakeholders) are wary about this direction.  The demand for all the crap in the flats didn't go away, and as fun as it was, I sure wouldn't want it moving under my condo or apartment.  Maybe I'm getting old.

 

Edit: I type too slowly- this was in response to Eparabola

?  I think we're misunderstanding each other.

 

What I meant to say was that the Warehouse District is a nice mixed-use place - plenty of offices, rental & for sale housing, grocery market, some retail, restaurants, bars, and clubs. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Flats didn't have all of those options, so therefore I would think that the Warehouse District is more sustainable.

 

Hope I made sense this time.

 

EDIT - and now I realize that most of the confusion wasn't coming from me :)

My parents and I made the mistake of going to the East Bank during the day back when everything was still open.... not knowing stuff was only open at night cause we were new to the area.  It was a creepy ghost town - nothing like the WHD.

Well, the Flats, most know for cashing union workers checks on Friday's, in my eyes's went downhill because of the opening of 1 or 2 bars.  It was more of a lax drinking environment until a couple bars came in.  So, do I think one particular restaurant or bar could have a negative effect on a restaurant district, absolutely. 

As for the May Company building: sounds like the developers are mis-adopting the Tyler Village model.

As for the May Company building: sounds like the developers are mis-adopting the Tyler Village model.

 

I wouldn't compare it to that, rather the Bingham.

^Wasn't the Bingham comprehensively rehabbed for apartments (and retail on ground floor)?  I had assumed so, but I don't recall exactly.  Was it a more ad-hoc gradual project?

I really have no idea what you guys are worrying over.  Seriously.  One restaurant comes - and what's with all the Cadillac Ranch hate anyway, it's just a restaurant- and we're now concerning outselves with, what, Public Square becoming more inhospitable.  So what if there's variety in that area - and by variety I mean ONE restaurant that we know of - and people are fretting?

 

I mean, McClev, you're getting "very nervous" about the area's direction due to one restaurant.  Hell, it could be a hooters or a BW3 and I'd be happy to have it. 

 

Given a choice, I would much rather have a Flats zoo than what we have now in Public Square.  But again, one restaurant is coming by and all of the sudden we're making up issues?? 

Eparbola what I'm nervous about isn't cadicrap ranch (though I do hate it).  I'm worried about the lack of direction of that building.  When's the last time you saw a major development transpire like this.  If months ago we had heard from the building owner that they were going to redevelop the building, and that they were planning entertaiment restaurant venues on the ground floor, apartments / condos above and a botique hotel... and were working on lining up tennants.  i'd be pretty happy, even if I hated cadillac ranch.

 

But that's not what we're seeing... i see a place springing up out of thin air, followed by a half assed announcement from a realty agency on behalf of an owner about a dance club with a mechanical bull, stating they are seeing what they can do about finding some like tennants elsewhere on the groundfloor.  In this announcement is one sentence from an owners representitive saying they might possibly want to do some homes or hotels or something at some point.  Seriously.  Compare that with any other press release about any other development going on right now.  This WREAKS of someone seeing what's happening on 4th, wanting to piggy back off that momentum and capitalize by getting some rent $ out of a vacant space.  There simply isn't a comprehensive plan in place for the building.  That's part of what worries me, at least with the May Co. building.

 

The other thing that worries me, is you've got another prominent developer who owns a building near by (that is built for retail) that somehow thinks it's a really good idea to do exactly this type of thing.  IF this pushes him in that direction (and I realize it's a huge IF at this point), now all of the sudden Lower Euclid is starting to fill up with these types of places.  Is that really what we WANT for EUCLID AVENUE?  I know this isn't the end of the world... and I'm not presenting it as such.  But I think it's fair to be "nervous" because I think it's certainly a possibility that this is a direction it COULD take.  That's all I'm saying.  And I think it'd be a waste of a grand street.  Development for the sake of development is not always a good thing, and doesn't last.  I'd rather this be planned carefully so it lasts or in 10 years people are going to be talking about redeveloping the street again.

I still do not think that the announcing of one restaurant warrants any concern.

 

And regarding the Flats zoo, I'm just saying that it really put Cleveland on the map and its loss hit us bigtime.  And, given the choice, I'd rather have people out and about in Public Square rather than its current, depressing atmosphere.

McCleveland, I think I get what you're saying here. That you question whether the owner/developer has a plan for the May Co. and seems to be adding tenants and uses as he/she comes up with them (ie: making things up as they go along).

 

But you did your message a disservice by first focusing on Cadillac Ranch, so we all critiqued your critique on that aspect alone.

I still do not think that the announcing of one restaurant warrants any concern.

 

And regarding the Flats zoo, I'm just saying that it really put Cleveland on the map and its loss hit us bigtime. And, given the hcoice, I'd rather have people out and about in Public Square rather than its current, depressing atmosphere.

 

I think you and I are on very different pages. And probably want very different things for this city.

^Wasn't the Bingham comprehensively rehabbed for apartments (and retail on ground floor)? I had assumed so, but I don't recall exactly. Was it a more ad-hoc gradual project?

 

I think you and I are on different pages.  you are talking about slowly but surely filling the building up gradually with quality tenants.  I am moreso talking about filling the building with residents, and opening the groundfloor for a couple retail tenants.  Either way, it would probably be better than Caddy Ranch.  I don't know why I am putting it down, being that I have never been there.  It just sounds hokey from the description.   

^Gotcha.  I was just highlighting the "we'll figure it out as we go along" aspects of May Company which, superficially, sounds like Tyler Village.  I know they're very different though given the dedication and creativity of the Tyler Village developers and the types of tenants they are lining up.

Since when is cadillac ranch a "dance club"??

 

since you've put the IF out there, please read my previous post about this development.

 

What if like developments open?  what are the pros and cons of that?  And lastly think, just because those open that doesn't mean they will stay.

 

I hate comparing nyc to Cleveland, but I must in this instance.  When GV was coming back on 7AV the garage, Jekyll and Hyde and frudruckers opened.  That block was doomed. 

 

Later a starbucks opened, the Frudruckers closed and a sushi samba restaurant opened.

 

My point, just because those restaurants open, doesn't mean they have to stay?  Whats wrong with diversity among our restaurants.  Isn't the idea to have great mass appeal?

 

I still do not think that the announcing of one restaurant warrants any concern.

 

And regarding the Flats zoo, I'm just saying that it really put Cleveland on the map and its loss hit us bigtime.  And, given the choice, I'd rather have people out and about in Public Square rather than its current, depressing atmosphere.

It's did not put Cleveland on the map, it just brought added media exposure.  The loss was a blip on the screen and hasn't hurt anyone but those who worked there.  The flats will still live on, in yet a different way.  It's evolution!

Isn't the idea to have great mass appeal?

 

I don't know if there is consensus on this.

 

This discussion really goes to the heart of what we want downtown to be.  Which is actually what Badge was sort of getting at (in an unhelpfully provocative way) way up thread.

Isn't the idea to have great mass appeal?

 

I don't know if there is consensus on this.

 

This discussion really goes to the heart of what we want downtown to be.  Which is actually what Badge was sort of getting at (in an unhelpfully provocative way) way up thread.

 

Let me be clearer then.

 

Mass appeal with a list of restaurants and retail establishments NOT CURRENTLY located in the Region.

MY POINT... is that REGARDLESS of what the establishment is... is that there doesn't seem to be a solid plan for this building.  And it's a really pivotal building.  That makes me NERVOUS, no matter what would be opening up.

MY POINT... is that REGARDLESS of what the establishment is... is that there doesn't seem to be a solid plan for this building.  And it's a really pivotal building.  That makes me NERVOUS, no matter what would be opening up.

Dude,

 

Relax...

        .....Relate....

                          ....Release....

 

I understand that, but how do we really know that the developer/owner has not done that yet just chose not to share it with the public?

 

Obviously, you are clearly more "in the know" about things in the immediate area, but I don't want YOU to develop an ulcer over this.  Granted, I like the way you think and prefer the "do it right the first time" approach than the "trial by fire haphazard" approach and risk having the entire project become a failure.

You guys DO realize that the Admins don't have a choice - we HAVE to endure this narcolepsy-inducing ping pong match?!? :roll:

I think there is a sizable market for country-themed stuff, as this seems to be. OK, it's tacky in a beautiful building like May Co., but I agree with MTS, who says it'll be there forever. Maybe this will show others what can be done with the space.

 

The food looks boring. I'd like to see some real BBQ up in this joint, not microwaved burgers. But I'm willing to give it a chance.

 

Hi folks, here's an official order - there will be no more Cadillac Ranch discussion in this thread. It can go in the Restaurants section, but not here. The good folks at Great Lakes Brewing Company should be paying you, because something in the water today is ensuring that I'll be picking up a six-pack on the way home! :x

By the by, it's "all of _a_ sudden."

 

Thanks.  Sorry.

 

:)

Can someone tell me why paint cans are flying off of the roof of the City Club building?

Either a clumsy painter doing rehab work, or a dipsh!t renting out the art studio space throwing a temper tantrum.

 

Anyhoo, the Dollar Bank is looking nifty over at the Galleria:

 

didn't think this deserved its own thread, but:

 

Cuyahoga engineer's office starts up new county map, info system

Engineer's new system starts today

Page 2 of 1

 

Detailed information about houses and businesses in Cuyahoga County, which used to take hours - even days - to find, will be available with the click of a mouse starting today.

 

The state-of-the-art online mapping and information system will be available for free on the Internet, provided by the Cuyahoga County engineer's office.

 

Today marks the start of a testing phase, which will last several months while engineers tweak the system, said Kevin Kelley, information technology administrator for the county engineer's office. There may be delays during this initial phase.

 

 

^Just what I needed, another way to waste time.  The site is pretty cool, but seems very buggy so far.  The foreclosure layer is pretty depressing.

it won't let me sign up to use the service....

^Just what I needed, another way to waste time. The site is pretty cool, but seems very buggy so far. The foreclosure layer is pretty depressing.

 

I used it also, but I could not find the legend.

I'm right here.  :-D

I'm right here.  :-D

 

DORK!!!!! :-D

 

Cool site though. 

^Just what I needed, another way to waste time.  The site is pretty cool, but seems very buggy so far.  The foreclosure layer is pretty depressing.

 

I used it also, but I could not find the legend.

 

You can get the legend for each data set to pop up by clicking the little "i" logo next to the layer name.

It seems like the data is already out dated.  I went to look for my place in Battery Park and they still have the old street layout.  I clicked where my house was and it said it was owned by Battery Park Limited and previously owned by Everready.  I find it really odd that they spent this much time building this application from scratch instead of trying to leverage something like Google Maps.  I know that is mentioned in the article, but Maps is quite flexible and I have seen it used in many different applications.  Seems like a waste spending nine months driving around verifying addresses (and having omissions at launch) when others have already done it for you.  Maps certainly has the new street layout for Battery Park.

Are you sure Google Maps can do what this system does?  How familiar are you with GIS systems?

^^BK, I doubt they spent much time reinventing the base map info (including address info) that is already widely available.  The main value here is the integration of a wide variety of county and municipal data sources, like foreclosure filings, sex offenders, locations of public facilities, etc.  It also includes census data, like income, pop density and pop change.  A lot of these things are individually available in this format, but not all in one place, as far as I know.

 

Edit: I agree, some of it is outdated, but that is a problem with the county source data, not with this GIS system per se.

Interesting letter to the editor in today's PD from someone referring to Gov. Strickland's speech at the CityClub on July 12.  Any UOers in attendance?  Some of the stats stated by Strickland are pretty amazing..

 

 

Cleveland is worth emulating -- letter to the editor

Friday, July 18, 2008

I found Gov. Strickland's address to the City Club on July 11 to be very positive and to contain some facts that more than Clevelanders would find interesting. Unfortunately, the news story on the speech didn't quote him extensively enough...

 

Regan J. Fay

 

Cleveland

 

 

 

I always knew we were better than all those naked, beautiful people in Rio.

 

8-)

^^wait? higher percentage of the creative class? I don't recall seeing that check box on the census..

Terminal Tower restoration update: Looks like they're finally getting to replacing the ornamentation along the cornice (note the lighter color pieces to the right):

 

what is the extent of renovation planned?  Just the upper tower sections or eventually the entire building?  I know there was some 5 year renovation plan but I think that was just the top, no?

Mods, not sure where you want these to go (I know there were a couple threads that had been locked), but at this point seems relevant.

 

At any rate, a couple of pics from Cadicrap Ranch:

I thought this was a really interesting article from gcbl.org regarding adaptive reuse of vacant land:

 

http://www.gcbl.org/land/green-infrastructure/re-imagine-a-more-sustainable-cleveland/vacant-land-strategies-being-considered

 

Vacant land strategies being considered

 

Open space by a school converted into an urban gardenNeighborhood Progress, Inc. and the Cleveland Urban Design Collaborative held a planning charrette on May 6, 2008 where planners offered many ideas for revitalizing vacant land in Cleveland.

 

"Now we need to expand some of the strongest ideas and begin to identify a range of sites for potential vacant land interventions," writes UDC senior planner Terry Schwarz.

 

Ideas for initial consideration include:

 

Land bank policies for strategic reuse and improving urban ecosystems

The city’s new decision-making flow chart for vacant land reuse will be refined and expanded. Ultimately, this decision-making tool may be adopted formally by the city. Using the flowchart, a series of policies and performance standards can be developed to govern all properties in the city’s land bank. These policies and standards will address vegetation, stormwater management, soil remediation, and development potential. The goal is to improve ecological functions within the city as a whole by adopting standards that apply to individual lots within the city’s control. Detailed mapping can be developed to aid the city in understanding how each individual landbank lot is situated within the watershed and the city’s green space network. When a site is released from the landbank, specific policies and standards can apply, whether the site remains as open land or a building location.

 

Collaborators: the Cleveland Planning Commission, Sustainability Office, Law Department, and Department of Parks and Recreation; the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District

 

Products: City ordinance(s), policies, and performance standards governing land bank lots

 

Native plant experimental plots

Several large-scale public investment projects will occur in the next three to five years, including the extension of the Ohio and Erie Canal Towpath Trail into the City of Cleveland, the creation of Canal Basin Park, and improvements to Wendy Park. Native plant materials in these areas will aid in preserving riparian functions along the Cuyahoga River, improve water quality in the river and in Lake Erie, and enhance biodiversity wildlife habitat within the city.

 

Appropriate native plant materials can be cost-prohibitive and difficult to find. Vacant sites within the city of Cleveland can be used to grow different varieties of plants and to conduct tests to see which plant materials are the most resilient in an urban context. Creating a series of experimental plots would allow a wide range of plant materials to become established prior to transplanting them in their permanent locations in public parks and natural areas.

 

Surplus plant materials can also be sold to institutions, residents, and businesses to increase the overall plant diversity of the city. The next step in determining the viability of this idea is to document the anticipated public improvements five years, calculate the quantity of native plant materials needed for these improvements, and determine the acreage that would be needed to cultivate these plant materials.

 

With this information, we can locate land bank lots or other vacant sites that would be most suitable and accessible for plant cultivation. Then we will be able to formulate a business plan that determines the cost of setting up the experimental plots and cultivating the plant materials, and well as the revenue that would be generated (or saved) by using these locally grown plant materials for public projects.

 

Collaborators: The Cleveland MetroParks, Cleveland Botanical Garden, the Cleveland Horticulture High School, the Democracy Collaborative at the University of Maryland, the Cleveland Department of Parks and Recreation

 

Products: Business plan for a native plant enterprise; planning, design, and implementation of a network of native planting sites.

 

Eco-encapsulation initiative

Soil-based lead and other environmental toxins are prevalent in Cleveland. Abatement and remediation efforts are typically tied to redevelopment projects. A strategic, targeted remediation effort is essential because the city lacks the resources to remove environmental pollutants on a comprehensive, city-wide basis. However, an initiative to encapsulate soil-based toxins, even for parts of the city where redevelopment is not immanent, would reduce the exposure of Cleveland residents to these substances. This initiative has two components:

 

* Ground cover encapsulation: Vacant sites with open soil are a major contributor to airborne lead levels in Cleveland neighborhoods, especially in the summer months. In many Cleveland neighborhoods, over 30% percentage of children have elevated blood lead levels. This is a public health problem, as well as a major social and economic challenge. Planting low-mow native turf grasses on vacant sites is a technique that can reduce the amount of lead particles that become airborne and lessen the extent to which children are exposed to lead. A ground cover encapsulation initiative would include the development effective techniques and seed mixtures for soil containment. The initiative could provide seed mixtures and offer training to community development corporations on the effective use of these techniques. As a first step, we need more detailed mapping of lead hot spots, as well as mapping to identify significant areas of open soil throughout the city. From this information, we can calculate the acreage to be planted and the volume of seed needed to achieve encapsulation.

 

Collaborators: The Cleveland Heath Department, the Ohio State Extension Office, the Greater Cleveland Lead Advisory Council, the Cleveland Botanical Garden, the Cleveland Neighborhood Development Coalition, local community development corporations

 

Product: A training program and user’s manual for ground cover encapsulation techniques; the planting of vacant sites using these techniques in lead hot spots throughout the city.

 

* Remediation research and development: Cleveland can become a major center for remediation research and development. Experimental soil and water remediation techniques can be created here and tested on vacant sites throughout the city. The most effective techniques can then be commercialized for use in other cities.

 

Collaborators: Ohio State University, the University of Akron, Cleveland State University, Case-Western Reserve University, NASA, the Cuyahoga Planning Commission, the Cleveland Health Department, the Cleveland Economic Development Department (Brownfields and Industrial Land Bank staff), the Cuyahoga Water and Soil Conservation District.

 

Product: We need to convene the potential collaborators to determine a feasible outcome and timeline for this initiative.

 

Stormwater management initiative

Vacant land can be used to address stormwater management and water quality challenges in Cleveland by providing opportunities for bioretention and filtering of stormwater.

 

The Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District completed a Regional Intercommunity Drainage Evaluation (RIDE) Study in 2006. The RIDE study identified 500 flooding, erosion, and drainage problem areas within the Sewer District’s service area. Many of these problem areas are located within the City of Cleveland.

 

The stormwater bioretention initiative would evaluate the problem spots in Cleveland and determine where these problems can best be addressed through the strategic deployment of best management practices on vacant sites. As a first step, we can evaluate water course conditions and riparian corridors to determine the best locations for source control of stormwater—the places where soil infiltration and bioretention can be achieved and where vegetation, wildlife habitat, and public open space can be re-established.

 

Collaborators: Cleveland MetroParks, the County Planning Commission, the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District, the City of Cleveland Office of Sustainability, the Cuyahoga Soil and Water Conservation District, private sector design/engineering firm, the Cleveland Urban Design Collaborative

 

Product: The initial work can include the schematic design of network of natural bioretention facilities for vacant sites. The volume of water that can be managed by this network needs to be clearly quantified, as will the impacts of this proposed intervention on stormwater management and water quality throughout the sewer district service area. We can gauge the extent to which this network of natural bioretention facilities will assist in achieving compliance with the Phase II requirements of the National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System (NPDES) permit program

 

Green space network and connections

Vacant land can be used to expand and connect the existing network of parks and green spaces within the city through a combination of short term and permanent interventions. The Cuyahoga County Greenprint provides guidance for reinforcing the green space network within the city. Using the city’s flow chart for assessing vacant sites, a schematic, city-wide green space plan can be developed to identify priority sites and areas for future green space.

 

Collaborators: Cleveland City Planning Commission, Cleveland MetroParks, Cleveland Urban Design Collaborative

 

Product: Schematic, city-wide green space plan encompassing traditional parks and recreation areas; agricultural areas; forests, meadows, protected wildlife habitat, and other natural areas; wetlands and other stormwater recharge areas; and connections.

 

Urban agriculture/Local food policy

Urban agriculture and community gardens enhance local food security, expand the range of nutritious foods available in city neighborhoods and can provide wealth-building opportunities for city residents.

 

We need to identify the most viable range of produce for agricultural development in Cleveland based on climate, soil conditions, and market factors. We also need to determine the areas of the city that are best suited for community gardens, commercial farming, and other forms of food production.

 

Collaborators: OSU Extension, the New Agrarian Center, the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Food Policy Coalition, the Cleveland Botanical Garden

 

Product: Map of current and potential food production sites in Cleveland.

 

Energy generation

Vacant land in Cleveland has untapped potential for energy generation but technical expertise is needed to determine which strategies are most feasible and how they can be implemented.

 

Collaborators: To be determined.

 

Products: To be determined.

 

Next steps

Work in each of these areas will proceed on a smaller and more focused scale, rather than with the full group. Then we will reconvene the working group in early August to present a range of alternatives for further consideration.