free think, it's an interesting thought... I just think it is found wanting in so many areas I don't even know where to begin.  Leaving all gambling out of it, the location is kind of off the beaten path, so I don't see people contributing to downtown.  They'd drive in and drive out.  Furthermore if you remove the rest of the proposal from the development (which it seems like you also acknowledge seems to be a bad idea)... I wonder how attractive to the city something like this would be from a purely financial perspective.  Now I don't have any of the numbers in front of me... but as the largest city owned lot, I'm guessing that the Municipal Parking Lot brings in an awful lot of money to the city annually. I can't imagine the job taxes created by a horse track would come close to the parking revenue.  Without the property taxes of the housing / mall / whatever else was concocted in this scheme, I can't see how a one time $9m sale of the land works out in the cities favor.  And my guess is that without that other component the numbers wouldn't even work out in the developers favor.  And with how poorly thought out the overall "plan" seems to be, it doesn't lend very much credibility to the project.  Though I am glad you posted this as it is something different.  I can't imagine though we'll be hearing too much more of it.

 

By the way you are correct... Cleveland bares the scars of an awful lot of Urban Planning disasters from over the years, I just don't see what we really gain by placing a racetrack at east 25th street walled off by the shoreway and a commercial rail line.  Honestly this whole property is so far on the backburner of my mind, it never even occurred to me to think what would be the best way to develop it.

 

On a side note I just did a google map overhead to check out the area... what the f are those run down tennis courts immediately to the east of the muni lot?  I had no idea they even existed.

There has been poor planning here, and that's why we should have learned our lesson and pursue only the best in the field.

^^Is that part of Kirtland park?

They have been there for many years. I do recall seeing people playing on them... like in the early eighties.

well:

 

1.  In looking at those courts in google maps (taken last year) i think it's a safe bet no one has played on them since the 80's.

 

2.  The guy in charge of this development is going to have to show me how on earth you fit a track like thistledown in the muni-lot space without ripping up the shoreway and/or the railroad lines... neither of which I believe are going to happen.  Physically I believe this is impossible.

Yes, this is from the same elevation, folks:

 

 

The track itself would squeeze into the space - if you obliterated the Shoreway at that point along with the East 9th offramp, and rerouted the trains... yeah, NEXT!

 

OK... looks like we can end that discussion :lol:

i thought the plans called for relocating thistledown?

Oh hang on... here you go:

 

 

It's even worse than Northfield! :laugh:

Racetrack FAIL!  :bang:

 

EDIT:  MayDay, you should sell your illustration to 19 Action News....

Awwwww shucks, i had high hopes for this project too  :wave:

Racetrack FAIL!  :bang:

 

EDIT:  MayDay, you should sell your illustration to 19 Action News....

 

Sorry, I only deal with Wilma or Ramona.

Racetrack FAIL!   :bang:

 

EDIT: MayDay, you should sell your illustration to 19 Action News....

 

Sorry, I only deal with Wilma or Ramona.

 

Lol.  Yeah, I like WKYC better too :)

The fact that this involves that shameless toady Charles Scaravelli (the same lickspittle who managed to default on his marina mortgage on Scranton Road but who tried to save the project by naming elements of his "plan" after various local politicians) being interviewed by the Weekly World News of local "news" television makes me doubly-ill.

The fact that this involves that shameless toady Charles Scaravelli (the same lickspittle who managed to default on his marina mortgage on Scranton Road but who tried to save the project by naming elements of his "plan" after various local politicians) being interviewed by the Weekly World News of local "news" television makes me doubly-ill.

 

Maybe we can all pitch in to send Chuck a tape measure and a calculator to go along with his box of crayons.  :-o

Awwwww shucks, i had high hopes for this project too  :wave:

 

This is exactly what my point is. And I don't mean to isolate the above comment, but it seems to be the attitude. It is our collective thought in Cleveland to immediately see the negative before we ask the important questions. OK, so lets say that it wont work in that location, how about another location. Lets say Thistledown is seriously looking for a new home. Why cant it be in Cleveland. There are certainly a number of desolate areas in our city that this could work in. How about somewhere in the Flats, maybe by Steelyard. It just cant be an immediate "no way" it cant be done. I am sure this is what frustrates allot of developers, they don't want to hear "no", they want to hear "lets talk about it", maybe we can do it this way. The sad fact is I am sure this is the prevailing attitude at city hall. I am very tired of hearing how things can't be done instead of how they can be done. Speaking as someone who has been around awhile, please guard against having the same attitude that the previous generations have had. Or we are all in trouble.

 

On a side note I just did a google map overhead to check out the area... what the f are those run down tennis courts immediately to the east of the muni lot? I had no idea they even existed.

 

Believe it or not, but I think the Davis Cup used to be held there in the 1970s.

 

UPDATE: confirmed by ECH: http://ech.cwru.edu/ech-cgi/article.pl?id=DCM

Awwwww shucks, i had high hopes for this project too :wave:

 

This is exactly what my point is. And I don't mean to isolate the above comment, but it seems to be the attitude. It is our collective thought in Cleveland to immediately see the negative before we ask the important questions. OK, so lets say that it wont work in that location, how about another location. Lets say Thistledown is seriously looking for a new home. Why cant it be in Cleveland. There are certainly a number of desolate areas in our city that this could work in. How about somewhere in the Flats, maybe by Steelyard. It just cant be an immediate "no way" it cant be done. I am sure this is what frustrates allot of developers, they don't want to hear "no", they want to hear "lets talk about it", maybe we can do it this way. The sad fact is I am sure this is the prevailing attitude at city hall. I am very tired of hearing how things can't be done instead of how they can be done. Speaking as someone who has been around awhile, please guard against having the same attitude that the previous generations have had. Or we are all in trouble.

 

Find a different/better location then ill take the "we'll see" approach. Location location location, and that location is the wrong one for a horsetrack

Besides the fact that, based on Mayday's Google shots, there is no place AT ALL where Thisledown will fit... except maybe Burke - and we know that ain't gonna' happen.

I can say this as factual because of a study I did regarding Burke and its relocation, and a separate study doing a site selection for a campus about the size of Kirtland Park.

 

 

And back to a topic much more worthy of discussion - they're still taking down more scaffolding on Terminal Tower :-)

 

I saw that today... it made me quite happy.

I took that at lunch today - I can't say for sure, but from the Abbey Avenue bridge, it looked like they were still going - I could be wrong (but lets hope not!)

Thanks for the update MayDay. Does anyone know the extent of the renovation, that is to ask will it continue all the way down the entire tower portion? I'm reasonably sure the answer is yes but can any one confirm this.

 

BTW still LMAO...."Panther District" WTF!

^The CLEVELAND PANTHERS were a semiprofessional football team in the 1920s, and was also the name of the Cleveland team in the short-lived 1926 American Football League; it was also the original name selected for the organization that eventually became the CLEVELAND BROWNS. Little information is available about the semiprofessional Panthers until the team turned professional in 1926. That year the Panthers joined the AFL, the first professional league organized to compete directly with the young National Football League. Cleveland's AFL franchise was obtained by CHARLES X. ZIMMERMAN†, president of the Amiesite Asphalt Co.; Zimmerman was Panther president with George T. Jones as secretary. They signed Doc Elliott and Dick Wolf, former Cleveland Bulldog players, and Ohio State stars Al Michaels and Cookie Cunningham. The season began on 26 Sept. when 22,000 spectators watched the Panthers defeat Red Grange's New York All Americans 10-0 at LUNA PARK. Although the Panthers won 2 of their next 3 games, only 1,000 people attended the 31 Oct. game. The following week Stearns Advertising Co. sued the team for $1,000, and the court placed it in receivership. The players were stranded on the road in Philadelphia. The team was disfranchised by the league and disbanded. Herb Brandt, owner of the NFL CLEVELAND BULLDOGS, quickly signed most of the Panthers' players. The Panthers returned in 1927 but were apparently an independent semiprofessional team managed by Jones.

 

Jones appeared again in the summer of 1945 after a newspaper contest chose the Panthers as the name for the Cleveland franchise in the new All-America Football Conference. As manager of the earlier Panther team, Jones apparently demanded several thousand dollars from owner ARTHUR B. (MICKEY) MCBRIDE† for the use of the name. McBride refused to pay, reopened the contest, and selected the Browns name for his team.

 

http://ech.cwru.edu/ech-cgi/article.pl?id=CP1

 

^ Interesting stuff, are you saying this is the genesis of the branding "Panther District". If so it still sounds ridiculous, might as well just call it Browns Town (not serious).

^The CLEVELAND PANTHERS were a semiprofessional football team in the 1920s, and was also the name of the Cleveland team in the short-lived 1926 American Football League; it was also the original name selected for the organization that eventually became the CLEVELAND BROWNS. Little information is available about the semiprofessional Panthers until the team turned professional in 1926. That year the Panthers joined the AFL, the first professional league organized to compete directly with the young National Football League. Cleveland's AFL franchise was obtained by CHARLES X. ZIMMERMAN†, president of the Amiesite Asphalt Co.; Zimmerman was Panther president with George T. Jones as secretary. They signed Doc Elliott and Dick Wolf, former Cleveland Bulldog players, and Ohio State stars Al Michaels and Cookie Cunningham. The season began on 26 Sept. when 22,000 spectators watched the Panthers defeat Red Grange's New York All Americans 10-0 at LUNA PARK. Although the Panthers won 2 of their next 3 games, only 1,000 people attended the 31 Oct. game. The following week Stearns Advertising Co. sued the team for $1,000, and the court placed it in receivership. The players were stranded on the road in Philadelphia. The team was disfranchised by the league and disbanded. Herb Brandt, owner of the NFL CLEVELAND BULLDOGS, quickly signed most of the Panthers' players. The Panthers returned in 1927 but were apparently an independent semiprofessional team managed by Jones.

 

Jones appeared again in the summer of 1945 after a newspaper contest chose the Panthers as the name for the Cleveland franchise in the new All-America Football Conference. As manager of the earlier Panther team, Jones apparently demanded several thousand dollars from owner ARTHUR B. (MICKEY) MCBRIDE† for the use of the name. McBride refused to pay, reopened the contest, and selected the Browns name for his team.

 

http://ech.cwru.edu/ech-cgi/article.pl?id=CP1

 

 

Now THAT'S a moment for:

Clvlndr - I have no idea why someone chose "Panther District", I just was googling Cleveland + Panther to see if there was any historical connection, and that's what came up, along with stories about the Black Panthers in Cleveland.

Another panther tie-in:  The word Erie is short for Erielhonen which is Iriquois for panther.  The Erie tribe worshipped a panther god that lived under the lake.  It's been suggested that the alligator mound in Granville is really a cat, and possibly a representation of that god.

 

Just saw the video, couldn't watch it at work.  I don't think this guy was referencing that, or football.  I don't understand why he can't do the apartments without the racetrack.  Take that and the mall out, and it's not a bad idea.  Then the waterfront line would go somewhere.  The city may lose the parking lot revenue, but that's an awful place for a parking lot and a great one for housing.

Hey, if they miniaturized the race track, maybe it would fit inside the much maligned loop on the waterfront line north of FEB.  You'd have to race something small like mice though.  :evil:

Another panther tie-in:  The word Erie is short for Erielhonen which is Iriquois for panther.  The Erie tribe worshipped a panther god that lived under the lake.  It's been suggested that the alligator mound in Granville is really a cat, and possibly a representation of that god.

 

Just saw the video, couldn't watch it at work.  I don't think this guy was referencing that, or football.  I don't understand why he can't do the apartments without the racetrack.  Take that and the mall out, and it's not a bad idea.  Then the waterfront line would go somewhere.  The city may lose the parking lot revenue, but that's an awful place for a parking lot and a great one for housing.

 

Because he needs a "catch"?  The "silver lining" project.  If he was really concerned, he would plan his residential componet on any one of the vacant lots in downtown.  The buildings don't have to be adjacent/attached.  Its worked for Stonebridge.  There are plenty of places downtown where his project could be built.

This guy is a goof ball and this project will go nowhere.  And to blame the negative feelings towards this project here on UO on "typical Cleveland negativity," is BS.  It's just a bad idea, bad programming, and has nothing to do with us thinking we can't get things done here.

This guy is a goof ball and this project will go nowhere.  And to blame the negative feelings towards this project here on UO on "typical Cleveland negativity," is BS.  It's just a bad idea, bad programming, and has nothing to do with us thinking we can't get things done here.

AMEN!

Thanks for the update MayDay. Does anyone know the extent of the renovation, that is to ask will it continue all the way down the entire tower portion? I'm reasonably sure the answer is yes but can any one confirm this.

 

As far as I know, they are "rebuilding" the top of the tower, and the main cornices on all parts fo the building with fiberglass material.  The main body of the tower will be completely cleaned, and areas repaired as necessary.  All 2,050 windows on the structure will be replaced.  And I believe we are 2 years and 9 months into the 5 year project (about 55% complete), so we've still got a ways to go.

This guy is a goof ball and this project will go nowhere. And to blame the negative feelings towards this project here on UO on "typical Cleveland negativity," is BS. It's just a bad idea, bad programming, and has nothing to do with us thinking we can't get things done here.

 

Oh now c'mon, it is a fabulous idea. Every 19 minutes, downtown will go crazy!!!  ;)

This guy is a goof ball and this project will go nowhere.  And to blame the negative feelings towards this project here on UO on "typical Cleveland negativity," is BS.  It's just a bad idea, bad programming, and has nothing to do with us thinking we can't get things done here.

 

Oh now c'mon, it is a fabulous idea. Every 19 minutes, downtown will go crazy!!!  ;)

You outta be slapped for that!  LMAO!!

Well it looks like the worlds longest window restoration project is well under way (started summer of 2006).

1.  Someone hard at work replacing windows on the 4th Floor of the Halle Building

2.  I think the finished painted windows (on the right) are going to make a pretty strong visual impact.  To be quite honest this building looked pretty tired and worn out and I think this will really bring it out of it's coma.

3.  That's a lot of broken windows.

A while back, I had mentioned in this thread of some new signage and awnings at the statler... well it looks like they're getting started... with the big one.

Believe it or not, but I think the Davis Cup used to be held there in the 1970s.

 

UPDATE: confirmed by ECH: http://ech.cwru.edu/ech-cgi/article.pl?id=DCM

Per the article, the courts by the muni lot were never used for Davis Cup.

A while back, I had mentioned in this thread of some new signage and awnings at the statler... well it looks like they're getting started... with the big one.

 

Now that's WORLD CLASS!

If my memory serves me correct too, it is a channel illuminated back lit sign... so that thing should light up at night...

A while back, I had mentioned in this thread of some new signage and awnings at the statler... well it looks like they're getting started... with the big one.

 

I just passed this walking back to CSU and it looks awesome, cant wait to see it lit up tonight when walking to the bus

I *think* they're still going...

They would probably be done quicker if they were not drinking Bud on the job.

Dang, Eagle Eye!

Are you *sure* that's what that is?

 

 

Dunkin Donuts, perhaps? :-D

maybe it's a box of KFC?  :)

Dunkin Donuts, perhaps? :-D

 

That'd be my guess since there's one located in Tower City, and a google check (I don't eat donuts usually) shows their boxes as being white lids with logos and magenta on the sides.

 

*My god, we're debating whether the folks working are functional lushes or they have a sweet tooth... oyyyy...

I vote for beer.

HURRAY BEER!!!