March 28, 201213 yr I agree. Also, rember amenities such as grocery stores cater to all income brackets
March 28, 201213 yr I still think we need to crack 10,000 true downtown residents. You mean more than just the total which includes County Jail inmates?? :-P Yeah I knew I did the math before and came up with a more true downtown population stat. I got 6,817. 668 was not included in the census, so you can add another 400 to that getting you at 7,217. But that number still includes section 8, and public housing, which aren't the usual numbers people want to brag about, and not the population critical in gaining retail downtown. This is my original post describing where the number came from and why we often hear 10,000 and 12,000. http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,26665.msg592170.html#msg592170 While I agree that including the county jail population is a bit misleading, what is with the tendency to not consider Section 8 renters as "real" downtown residents?! These individuals have chosen to use their vouchers to live downtown, they contribute to the downtown economy, pay their taxes, and often care very much for their community. I've been in the buildings and spoken to the residents. At the very least, a building that's primarily Section 8 is one less that's market rate, which only creates more demand for new apartment/condo construction or conversion in this market, which is a good problem to have. But please, perpetuating an image that the only downtown residents worth counting are yuppies or hipsters living in lofts is unfortunate. The context of that post was in relation to retail numbers. When someone says you need so many residents to start bringing retail downtown, those retailers aren't looking at homeless shelters or section 8 renters as their key market. That's why you don't see anything opening up in central. So yes I would count them, but not in regards to retail.
March 28, 201213 yr I still think we need to crack 10,000 true downtown residents. You mean more than just the total which includes County Jail inmates?? :-P Yeah I knew I did the math before and came up with a more true downtown population stat. I got 6,817. 668 was not included in the census, so you can add another 400 to that getting you at 7,217. But that number still includes section 8, and public housing, which aren't the usual numbers people want to brag about, and not the population critical in gaining retail downtown. This is my original post describing where the number came from and why we often hear 10,000 and 12,000. http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,26665.msg592170.html#msg592170 While I agree that including the county jail population is a bit misleading, what is with the tendency to not consider Section 8 renters as "real" downtown residents?! These individuals have chosen to use their vouchers to live downtown, they contribute to the downtown economy, pay their taxes, and often care very much for their community. I've been in the buildings and spoken to the residents. At the very least, a building that's primarily Section 8 is one less that's market rate, which only creates more demand for new apartment/condo construction or conversion in this market, which is a good problem to have. But please, perpetuating an image that the only downtown residents worth counting are yuppies or hipsters living in lofts is unfortunate. The context of that post was in relation to retail numbers. When someone says you need so many residents to start bringing retail downtown, those retailers aren't looking at homeless shelters or section 8 renters as their key market. That's why you don't see anything opening up in central. So yes I would count them, but not in regards to retail. Are you 100% sure of that? There is a target audience for section 8 renters [ie walmart, jcpenny, kohl, target, gap]. Also, note, just because one is on section 8 doesn't me that have not in the past had X buying power. Nor is it an indicator of future buying power! If you're going to "assume" those on section 8 have no buying power, then those on SSI are also a negative. What is your knowledge of Section 8?
March 28, 201213 yr Can't we just agree that poor people have less money and move on? FWIW, I believe all three Section 8 buildings downtown are senior housing. I have no idea how that enters into retailer's decisions. Though from its ads, I suspect the Gap isn't really all that excited by impoverished over 60 demographic.
March 28, 201213 yr It all plays into to the demographics that are of coarse looked at by the reail establishments. MTS you should know that most of the retail establishments that you and others had mentioned theyy would like to see downtown that you also say are lacking in NE Ohio are not going to be interested in section 8 numbers or what their buying power is. Thats not to say they have no buying power. Thats why we are seeing the proliferation of Dollar general and other similarly "discount" type stores in most Cleveland neighborhoods.
March 28, 201213 yr It all plays into to the demographics that are of coarse looked at by the reail establishments. MTS you should know that most of the retail establishments that you and others had mentioned theyy would like to see downtown that you also say are lacking in NE Ohio are not going to be interested in section 8 numbers or what their buying power is. Thats not to say they have no buying power. Thats why we are seeing the proliferation of Dollar general and other similarly "discount" type stores in most Cleveland neighborhoods. Exactly. I researched and found the true population of downtown because I kept on hearing 10,000 or 12,000. I was sad to learn we were not even at 8,000. I got a grand total of 9,471 Remove the prisoners/homeless and you get 6,817 Add about 400 for 668 Euclid avenue and you get to about 7,217 Remove the 800 or so Section 8 and you get 6,417 So there you have it. You can choose what number you like best, and what you think major retailers will care about. Im just kind of sick of Cleveland going around mentioning the 10,000 to 12,000 downtown population figure because its just not true and is misleading.
March 28, 201213 yr ^I totally agree that the boosters have played a little fast and loose with the numbers, and definitely appreciate your much more nuanced estimate. The lame silver lining is that the residential projects currently in the pipeline amount to a pretty significant increase in downtown yuppie population and spending power.
March 28, 201213 yr It all plays into to the demographics that are of coarse looked at by the reail establishments. MTS you should know that most of the retail establishments that you and others had mentioned theyy would like to see downtown that you also say are lacking in NE Ohio are not going to be interested in section 8 numbers or what their buying power is. Thats not to say they have no buying power. Thats why we are seeing the proliferation of Dollar general and other similarly "discount" type stores in most Cleveland neighborhoods. Yes, I realize that, but why didn't this deter them before? Also, there going to look at Downtown as a Regional draw not just local. When you have one of a kind stores in a region that can change/add to your categories. There are a lot of variables.
March 28, 201213 yr It all plays into to the demographics that are of coarse looked at by the reail establishments. MTS you should know that most of the retail establishments that you and others had mentioned theyy would like to see downtown that you also say are lacking in NE Ohio are not going to be interested in section 8 numbers or what their buying power is. Thats not to say they have no buying power. Thats why we are seeing the proliferation of Dollar general and other similarly "discount" type stores in most Cleveland neighborhoods. Exactly. I researched and found the true population of downtown because I kept on hearing 10,000 or 12,000. I was sad to learn we were not even at 8,000. I got a grand total of 9,471 Remove the prisoners/homeless and you get 6,817 Add about 400 for 668 Euclid avenue and you get to about 7,217 Remove the 800 or so Section 8 and you get 6,417 So there you have it. You can choose what number you like best, and what you think major retailers will care about. Im just kind of sick of Cleveland going around mentioning the 10,000 to 12,000 downtown population figure because its just not true and is misleading. What borders are you using??
March 28, 201213 yr ^ I went generous and did everything East of the Cuyahoga, and West and North of I90
March 28, 201213 yr ^ I went generous and did everything East of the Cuyahoga, and West and North of I90 HUH? You're not defining the entire section used.
March 28, 201213 yr ^Lol. Just to close the loop, the 12k number isn't totally made up, it just includes the Flats west bank, namely Stonebridge and Lakeside Terrace, in addition to the residents of the subsidized senior housing, county jail, and shelters within your boundaries for downtown.
March 28, 201213 yr ^Lol. Just to close the loop, the 12k number isn't totally made up, it just includes the Flats west bank, namely Stonebridge and Lakeside Terrace, in addition to the residents of the subsidized senior housing, county jail, and shelters within your boundaries for downtown. In case you missed it, I posted a link to where I originally posted these numbers. I was aware of the west bank. Oddly enough I reference you in the post lol. http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,26665.msg592170.html#msg592170
March 28, 201213 yr If, as noted above by ClevelandOhio, that this "current downtown population discussion" centers around what kind of critical mass of residents you need to foster "downtown retail", I guess my question is what kind of retail are you taking about. Is is strictly "convenience retail". If it is more in the nature of national chains (lets not get bogged down in low end, middle end or high end since downtown really lacks all three compared to years past) would you not only consider the downtown borders, but expand that to Tremont, Ohio City, Detroit Shoreway and even Edgewater and University Circle. Residents in those neighborhoods would clearly preferably shop downtown if the retail existed since it would really be the closest for them than suburban malls (even University Circle...easier to hop on a bus to go downtown to shop at a Banana Republic that go out to Beachwood).
March 28, 201213 yr ^Good question- I think we discussed it briefly in the thread ClevelandOhio linked to, back in December. Of course you know you're just opening the door for more parking talk... In case you missed it, I posted a link to where I originally posted these numbers. I was aware of the west bank. Oddly enough I reference you in the post lol. http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,26665.msg592170.html#msg592170 I definitely remember that discussion. I knew you knew, but threw that out there just in case people wondered where the oft-cited 12k number came from and how it related to your numbers. Anyway, just to reiterate my lame silver lining, in case people are impatient waiting for increased amenities to serve our downtown population (more "random development", if you will): ClevelandOhio's refined population figures actually provide some kind of weird comfort. Our downtown spending power just isn't that high yet, but the CSU campus village, Hanna Annex, and East Ohio Gas bldg projects alone will literally increase downtown's non-impoverished population by 10% or so, so the downtown population is still poised to grow a pretty good clip.
March 30, 201213 yr Didn't want to post in the 515 Parking garage thread as I believe it is under completed projects. The empty storefront at the corner of Euclid and E 6th is having work done. Black paper is covering all the windows so we can't really get a sneak peek either. Does anyone have any info regarding what is going in there?
March 30, 201213 yr Author Didn't want to post in the 515 Parking garage thread as I believe it is under completed projects. The empty storefront at the corner of Euclid and E 6th is having work done. Black paper is covering all the windows so we can't really get a sneak peek either. Does anyone have any info regarding what is going in there? Oh, a little black paper on the windows never stopped a UO spy from getting secret photos. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 30, 201213 yr Didn't want to post in the 515 Parking garage thread as I believe it is under completed projects. The empty storefront at the corner of Euclid and E 6th is having work done. Black paper is covering all the windows so we can't really get a sneak peek either. Does anyone have any info regarding what is going in there? Oh, a little black paper on the windows never stopped a UO spy from getting secret photos. from the permits posted in the windows from a few weeks ago: this is the new potbelly sandwich place - http://www.potbelly.com/Home/Default.aspx
March 30, 201213 yr Yeah, if you type in 44114 in the zip code locator, it pulls up '515 Euclid Ave coming soon'.
March 30, 201213 yr Potbelly on SOM Center in Mayfield-whichever is still on track - signs in windows announcing it and saying "soonish" or something like that. New DiBella's being built just south - with Jimmy John's sandwiched, er, located - in between. Sandwichapalooza in that stretch.
March 30, 201213 yr Potbelly's is nice, but I was hoping for more retail options. Mostly just to differentiate from all the other restaurant spaces around there. These new apartments in the area can't come online fast enough.
March 30, 201213 yr I'm seriously considering opening a mid to upscale boutique...just in planning stages yet.
March 30, 201213 yr Potbelly's is nice, but I was hoping for more retail options. Mostly just to differentiate from all the other restaurant spaces around there. These new apartments in the area can't come online fast enough. With all the space being used up on Euclid for restaurants, maybe the retail, should it return could fill in other downtown streets like Prospect.
March 30, 201213 yr omg potbelly's. I am excited, sorry. Why can I not picture where there is a vacant space here. Euclid and 6th, what side of the street? Next to what?
March 30, 201213 yr In the 515 garage. *And you better at least try the Cleveland pickle before declaring Potbelly your favorite sandwich place downtown.
March 30, 201213 yr Author Is this the space we're talking about?... http://g.co/maps/c5cj7 Yes. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 30, 201213 yr I too love Potbelly's, and that should be an awesome buildout given the space, but this cannot be good news for locally owned (and one of my faves) Presto, just down the block at the Arcade. Hopefully there's enough sandwich lovers in the 600 block of Euclid to support both (and Jimmy Johns)!
March 30, 201213 yr Well RandR doesnt like Presto (which when I tried them I actually thought they seemed like a more creative version of Potbelly).
March 31, 201213 yr The problem with the Cleveland Pickle is that they close so early. I'd like to try it but the hours of operation cater more to the downtown worker instead of downtown resident. I dont tnink they are open on weekends either, the website doesnt help. I wish Josh Kabat all the best, and I love the location and the logo. Very glad to hear that Potbelly's is coming downtown. That'll be a plus. And I would think it will be open long enough for us downtown residents, especially with all the slated apartment conversions.
March 31, 201213 yr ^Where? And specializing in what? Men's and women's...mid to upscale (we need more jean selections) and as time goes on....pushing more luxury as Cleveland is severely lacking.
April 2, 201213 yr The Tilted Kilt looked like it was having a sorority party a bit ago when I passed by on way to rapid. Looks like they're getting close to hiring!
April 4, 201213 yr I know the retail space has been discussed, but I don't recall reading anything on the rest of the building. Anyone know what's going on?
April 4, 201213 yr It all plays into to the demographics that are of coarse looked at by the reail establishments. MTS you should know that most of the retail establishments that you and others had mentioned theyy would like to see downtown that you also say are lacking in NE Ohio are not going to be interested in section 8 numbers or what their buying power is. Thats not to say they have no buying power. Thats why we are seeing the proliferation of Dollar general and other similarly "discount" type stores in most Cleveland neighborhoods. Exactly. I researched and found the true population of downtown because I kept on hearing 10,000 or 12,000. I was sad to learn we were not even at 8,000. I got a grand total of 9,471 Remove the prisoners/homeless and you get 6,817 Add about 400 for 668 Euclid avenue and you get to about 7,217 Remove the 800 or so Section 8 and you get 6,417 So there you have it. You can choose what number you like best, and what you think major retailers will care about. Im just kind of sick of Cleveland going around mentioning the 10,000 to 12,000 downtown population figure because its just not true and is misleading. CSU Students? If the census counts them, shouldn't have you?
April 4, 201213 yr ^ I did. I used the census block information to get my totals. And if anything students aren't there during winter break or summer break so they have no benefit to downtown at those times. But they are included
April 6, 201213 yr Not sure where to put this, but in relation to the Plain Dealer article earlier this week about a Lakefront Metropark. Met with a Metroparks planner last night and they mentioned looking into eventually having a boardwalk go from Rivergate park all the way to the FEB boardwalk.... I feel like something of that caliber can be on par with San Antonio Riverwalk
April 6, 201213 yr That already is an amazing space. The riverfront is actually my favorite chilling place in the city. The only issue is currently there's not much as far as development is concerned down there, so people automatically feel unsafe. Once the skate park/rowing building are completed things will instantly be better and if this were to be completed along with a few businesses to bring people down there, it would be a stellar space!!!! It would help to connect Flats WB with this area with downtown. Let's do it!!!! And while we're at it...let's get the fountain at the waterfront line stop park area going again! Not sure if it's true, but I heard it used to be a functional fountain:D
April 6, 201213 yr uh-oh rumors Parker is trying to keep up with rival Eaton? Why not build...I dunno...Downtown??? Parker Hannifin buys 15.6 acres west of its corporate headquarters in Mayfield Heights Published: Friday, April 06, 2012, 5:30 PM Updated: Friday, April 06, 2012, 5:34 PM By Michelle Jarboe McFee, The Plain Dealer MAYFIELD HEIGHTS, Ohio -- Parker Hannifin Corp. has purchased 15.6 acres just west of its corporate headquarters in Mayfield Heights. Property records show that the publicly traded manufacturer paid $4.25 million for the vacant land, in the Landerbrook Office Park. The acquisition increases Parker's land-holdings in the area by 50 percent. "We do not have an immediate or specific plan for the use of the land," said Aidan Gormley, a company spokesman. "I think we just wanted to make sure that we have land available to build on, should we need it, in the future." http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/04/parker_hannifin_buys_156_acres.html
April 7, 201213 yr This isn't as big of a deal as Eaton. Eaton was downtown and moved. Parker Hannifin is just buying more land near their current headquarters. Makes sense. But imagine if Eaton, Parker Hannifin, American Greetings and Progressive all had their headquarters downtown. Game changer.
April 9, 201213 yr Author But imagine if Eaton, Parker Hannifin, American Greetings and Progressive all had their headquarters downtown. Game changer. Yep. Those companies are keeping the city down by not being a part of it. Thanks for your community service.... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 11, 201213 yr From yesterday before the snow....Not sure where these would go, but here's the new "Walk of Rock:"
April 11, 201213 yr Author What snow? It didn't snow in Lakewood. Nice pics, BTW "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 11, 201213 yr Regarding the "Walk of Rock," I believe it's a great concept, but I'm a bit underwhelmed by its execution. I'm concerned that without vibrant surroundings and street life that these markers will become something of a hidden curiosity. Not saying it's a better idea, but the "Surfers Row" in San Clemente, California is a much more visible one. It can certainly be emulated here in Cleveland. Their banners are aesthetically more suited for the beach. Banners of the Rock Hall inductees, built in a way that fits in with our more urban surroundings, I believe those would be an excellent addition to our city.
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