They're historically protected now, you know.

that picture is the kind of cleveland stuff comic artiste r. crumb went berserk about!

anyone heard of the "Post Office on Jay Avenue" development?

 

it's listed in the Spring 2005 Heartland Developers newsletter... http://www.sussexcourts.com/newsletters/spring_heartland.pdf

 

apparently, it's supposed to be at 2515 Jay Avenue in Ohio City and looks to include some townhouses and perhaps a larger building, all with a modern flair

Each time I've seen that photo, it makes me think of the North Broadway neighborhood, perhaps somewhere between East 55th and downtown. I don't know if that's right, but consider:

A. it's probably near downtown given the extent of development -- even Euclid Avenue wasn't that heavily developed east of East 18th in 1913, and the developed parts didn't look like what's in that picture;

B. it's probably within a couple miles of the river, because those areas developed first, being near the Ohio Canal and the first railroads in the area, and most of those buildings look to be of 1860s-1890s vintage. Cleveland's early main thoroughfares, like Broadway, were fairly narrow and it wasn't until later that Cleveland laid out its streets to be 80-100 feet wide;

C. it's not some neighborhood street, as it goes a long way into the background, is heavily lined with commercial uses, and that building on the left side appears to be some sort of community institution (like Polish American Society or whatever), plus it's got a streetcar line on it.

 

I was also going to say that the guy on far right side of the picture appears Eastern European, but that sure doesn't help figuring in which part of Cleveland this picture was taken! But the North Broadway neighborhood was heavily Eastern European in 1913.

 

KJP

"anyone heard of the "Post Office on Jay Avenue" development?

 

it's listed in the Spring 2005 Heartland Developers newsletter... http://www.sussexcourts.com/newsletters/spring_heartland.pdf

 

apparently, it's supposed to be at 2515 Jay Avenue in Ohio City and looks to include some townhouses and perhaps a larger building, all with a modern flair"

 

That's the former Jay Hotel - formerly a SRO hotel which was infamous in Ohio City.

http://www.freetimes.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1184

KJP, I agree with your assumptions... If you look at the Slavic Village Development site, www.slavicvillage.org, you'll see some of the remnants of a neighborhood similar to the one pictured above...  there were more pictures somewhere, but I can't find them right now.  I'll post 'em later!

 

PS: Thanks for the link, MayDay!

So has renovation started on the Jay Hotel yet?

No.

Jay Hotel:

 

First off, I don't know what kind of lunatic would want to live on Jay Ave.  (Oops, my apologies to the incoming MUPDD class.) :)

 

Secondly, I wonder if the sales of the ugly metal warehouses on that Jay block have gone through yet.  That has been holding up this development for the past 2 years.  From the picture, I can see the Jay hotel.  It looks like the property that fronts W.25th will also be raised.  It presently houses some sort of carpentry business and doesn't fit into the emerging character of the neighborhood.

 

Thirdly, what does "waiting list only" mean?  I assume it means that the project is not officially ready to start.  Considering that its summer already, something is holding it up.

First off, I don't know what kind of lunatic would want to live on Jay Ave.  (Oops, my apologies to the incoming MUPDD class.) :)

 

Wimwar, you better watch out... the Jay Avenue Neighborhood Association will have you blacklisted!  :wink:

My cousin said he went by the Jay Hotel the other day and it was boarded up...

 

Wimwar, are you talking about the warehouses on the block adjacent to the Dave's parking lot?  I heard that developers have been trying to buy that, but haven't had any luck.  There's so much infill around there and and housing on those lots would be bought up in a hot second!

 

and yeah, you'd better watch your mouth...

Hi.  Just wondering if you guys had any opions on this place.... its on 110th and Detroit in the Cudell/ Edgewater area.

 

at first sight, i'd have to say i like them a lot!  they address the street and surroundings very well (from what I can tell) and look like the appropriate density for their surroundings.

 

and they'll look even better once those planters (I'm assuming that's what those are) around the stoops are filled in!

 

great post Cinn!

"First off, I don't know what kind of lunatic would want to live on Jay Ave."

 

Really? There's a home at the corner of 28th and Jay that is drop-dead gorgeous and has been featured on HGTV a few times. I can see maybe not wanting to live near Lutheran Hospital but it's not exactly a Level 1 Trauma Center with ambulances coming and going at all hours.

 

"Hi.  Just wondering if you guys had any opions on this place.... its on 110th and Detroit in the Cudell/ Edgewater area"

 

I like those places a lot (though they're out of my price range) - I'm within about a 10-minute walk of them. I like the fact that they come right up to the street, and are one of the smaller developments that are helping to anchor prominent corners (i.e. 110th and Detroit). They're right next to Schilling Square condos which have been going for around $240K. Here's a link to a typical Schilling Square condo (click on the pics to go to the next page: http://www.results.cc/PhotoTemp/alfie/index.html

 

The area has quite a few rentals and could be considered 'transitional' but I've seen them improve over the past few years. I saw you mentioned Slavic Village in your other post - this area is substantially more desirable. It's also about a 10-15 minute walk to the Rapid Station, and just down from the new Chicle Building project.

Mayday,

 

I was joking. I like Jay a lot.  Two of our brethen have just leased places on Jay.  I was just teasing them. 

 

Cinnabun,

 

I like those townhomes.  I have run past them.  They seem to be some of the first renovation/new construction projects in that immediate area.  I like that the Chicle building is going forward down the street.  Also, I like its location near W. 117th.  Seems like that area is getting ready to undergo further improvements in the years to come.  The Cudell cdc seems pretty active that way. 

 

yikes!  mayday, WHAT is UP with those porch additions on the Schilling Square building???  Maybe it's just an unflattering picture, but they look totally out of place!

 

and I didn't realize the Chicle project was so close to here...I guess I'll have to check my maps again.  But way to go Cudell, building new capacity!

well, whaddya know?  West 103rd and Detroit!  Man, I really need to get over there.  I used to hang at the Bent Crayon and Red Star on West 116th and Detroit, but it's been so long that I've got a big old blank spot here on my cognitive map!  22 days and counting til i can get on my bike and take care of that!

I like those Detroit/W. 110th townhouses alot, too.  I would have preferred a standard stoop for the entrance to the two turn setup they have their, but hey.  They also need to do something about the underside of the roof on the corner gazebo.  It looks unfinished.

 

Otherwise, they look very nice, and I like the location.

X,

 

The gazebo IS unfinished!  The builder is going to finish that gazebo underside with copper, which will match the copper awnings that are not in place yet either......  :roll:  And the planters.... yes, they need to be landscaped.  Right now, there are 2 foot tall weeds in them!  The developer originally way overpriced the place.  Hes just now getting into the "do able" range.  So the place has been kind of sitting half done for awhile now....

 

Im glad you all like the place.  Were trying to figure out what to bid on it (corner unit) and we are VERY nervous and excited!  :clap:  It will be our first place that we own.  Of all the townhouses we looked at in Cleveland (all of them) its the only one that we were actually impressed by. 

 

We didnt look @ shilling square becuase we wanted new construction, but Ive seen the photos of the inside and they look very cool and contemporary!  We're hoping with the Chicle building being improved on one side and Rockport square on the other, this area will have some good potential for growth. 

 

I just found this forum today.  Im very glad to be here.  So many people in my family think we are  :drunk: for moving into Cleveland when everyone else is moving out! 

 

cinna

 

 

 

 

 

 

X,

 

The gazebo IS unfinished!  The builder is going to finish that gazebo underside with copper, which will match the copper awnings that are not in place yet either......  :roll:  

 

Well then.  Problem solved.

"We're hoping with the Chicle building being improved on one side and Rockport square on the other, this area will have some good potential for growth."

 

I think it does have potential for exactly the reason you said - and while I'm not a fan of the planned big-box strip plaza planned for West 117th at I-90, you'd be in an easy 5-minute drive (West 110th "becomes" Franklin, which connects to West 117th.) It's a really convenient location.

While we're on the topic of Cleveland rowhouses, check out this photo. I found it a couple years ago on the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History site and it has been one of my favorites ever since. It's from an entry on blizzards; unfortunately the exact location is not given; the year is 1913. Beautiful, though, isn't it? If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably somewhere on the near East side, on some block that has long since been razed.

 

 

I just found this picture in a book called "Cleveland: Then and Now" by John Grabowski and Diane Ewart Grabowski, p.84 and p.85.  Here is what the "then" caption says:

 

"Northwest of Tremont, in a neighborhood along West Twenty-fifth Street south of Lorain Avenue, most people were of German origin, as the bilingual sign over the dentist's office at the corner of West Twenty-fifth and Vega Avenue shows.  In November 1913, the district's residents battled one of the largest blizzards in local history.  Although streetcars were soon up and running, the boys partly visible in the foreground seem to be considering an alternative"

 

Here is the "now" caption:

 

"Nearly 90 years have passed since the photographer of the original view stood in the snow on West Tewnty-fifth Street; few of the old buildings have survived.  Much of the neighbordhood was lost to the construction of the I-90 freeway.  The surrounding area is today largely a Spanish-speaking neighborhood, a fact that makes the street name Vega and the entrance ramp sign pointing the way to Toledo doubly meaningful."

great find urbanlife!  we've obviously all been losing sleep over that one...or at least I have anyway.

I've gotta tell you...living here in Ohio City, there are LOTS more rowhouses than I expected!  I've been lazy about carrying my digital camera with me while riding my bike, but I pledge to do better.  There are lots of small rows like the ones that were posted earlier by Blinker12, but finding a solid block-long row is still a challenge.  I think the closest we've come in recent years has to be the Beacon Place development along Chester and Euclid and the townhomes built in Tremont along West 7th, etc.

 

I'm going to get pictures soon!!!

 

On my short list: updated Ohio City Townhomes, Bridge Avenue Phases 1-3, Franklin Townhomes, and more!

I just found this picture in a book called "Cleveland: Then and Now" by John Grabowski and Diane Ewart Grabowski, p.84 and p.85.

 

Thanks for the detective work, urbanlife.

Yet another casualty of the freeway system... sigh.

i drove by that area one day, maybe ill take a pic

 

its depressing none-the-less, id say a few old structures are there, but its mostly highway exits and a grassy field

the "now" picture is also in the book.

Here is a bad scan of the "now" photo...

 

<img src="http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b102/urbanlife/vegaave.jpg" alt="Vega Ave">

 

 

on the right hand side theres i think one building left, and it looks to be abandoned if im thinking of the correct area. 

You're absolutely right - the "now" pic is looking southeast from the corner of Vega and West 25th. You can see St. Michael's on Scranton in the distance.

looking at the then and now picture makes me want to puke 

people need space. Rowhouses offer no privacy IMO

people need space. Rowhouses offer no privacy IMO

 

Then why are they selling so well in this day and age?

"people need space."

 

To think that only a few decades ago, people managed to live without 4,000 square feet, bonus rooms, or formal living rooms (you know, the ones that have furniture that collects dust between the holidays).

but in many cases public spaces were in much better shape.  i'd much rather have a nice park and areas for neighbors to meet, exercise, socialize, etc.

 

When the public spaces are not well maintained or when they are taken over by the homeless, drug dealers, or other "undesirable" uses, then a 4000 square foot house with a nice yard becomes the standard as people can not find usable space and don't want to socialize with those who frequent the public spaces.

i'd just rather not live so squashed up with people on my left, on my right, and on top. I like to cut my grass sometimes, and i want a nice sized back yard. 

necro,

 

The point of the thread is to determine the reason why Cleveland did not build rowhouses in the late 1800s/early 1900s. An expression of the average suburbanite's preferences doesn't provide such an explanation.

you don't think they have lawns in the inner city? lol well you're wrong. Just because i like to have a lawn and a backyard, doesn't mean i live in the burbs man. you should go to Compton in Los Angeles, or SW Atlanta, they don't have rowhouses...is that because they are suburbs?

Necro,

 

There is no need to take offense.  It appeared that you had misinterpreted the question posed by the thread. 

 

A 'nice-sized backyard' is often associated with suburban style development.  That is not always true, but the tone of your post suggested so.  Furthermore,  I would not consider Los Angeles nor Atlanta to be traditional urban places (Thank god!). You can have suburban-style construction in an innercity neighborhood. 

In an innercity setting, rowhouses provide more privacy, not less.  Think about how little privacy one has when their side windows are ten feet from their neighbors side windows.  The key, of course, is sound insulation.  With good sound insulation, you'd never even have to worry about the people living on either side of you.

But the reason why Large cities like Baltimore and Philly and New York have rows and rows and rows and rows of row houses is because of the gazzilions of people those citis have to house. In Cleveland, there is no need for bulk housing like that, especially not now. IMO

It doesn't have to do with the number of people, but with the time period during which the people moved there.  Cleveland grew up primarily with the balloon frame house (very cheap to construct) and the streetcar (opened up more land to development).  These changes in technology are what resulted in Cleveland's difference in housing stock from Eastern cities.  We built every bit as much "bulk" housing as Boston or Philly.  It just looks different.

But the reason why Large cities like Baltimore and Philly and New York have rows and rows and rows and rows of row houses is because of the gazzilions of people those citis have to house. In Cleveland, there is no need for bulk housing like that, especially not now. IMO

 

You are confusing past development patterns with modern day realities. 

 

Additionally, I would argue that there is a definite need for such housing.  The market demands it.  There are many townhouse developments that are going on in Cleveland. Most new construction in Cleveland is in the townhouse style.  They have fetched upwards of $700,000 in Little Italy. If developers didn't do their research and determine that consumers wanted this type of product, then they would not build in this fashion.  Furthermore, it makes economic and environmental sense to build this way.

But the reason why Large cities like Baltimore and Philly and New York have rows and rows and rows and rows of row houses is because of the gazzilions of people those citis have to house. In Cleveland, there is no need for bulk housing like that, especially not now. IMO

 

Baltimore's population is very similar to Cleveland's.  Under your logic, Cleveland has "gazzilions of people" as well. 

Cleveland has a lost of people, but not packed into very concentrated areas like say...a West Baltimore, or west philly.

i mean look at this pic of east baltimore i found on this site lol

 

 

You step out of your front door, take one step to the left and you are standing on your neighbors porch (if you want to call it a porch).

Necromantical,

 

I am not sure what your point is.  Are you discussing how cities were built 100 years ago or are you talking about your modern day housing preferences?  There is a big difference between the two.

you're telling me those row houses in baltimore were built 100 years ago?

They are pre-WWII with some unfortunate vinyl renovations. 

necromantical

 

Some people like to be "squashed" up against others. I, for one, live in a seven-story building with apartment-style condos, which is very quiet and peaceful, yet I know the names of all the neighbors on my floor and we look out for each other, feed the others' pets when we're on vacation and so on. I also don't have to cut grass (thank God--I had enough of that in Geauga County!), make repairs to my roof, basement, hot water heater, etc.

 

To say that "people need space" is a horrible generalization not based in any fact. Look at the rediscovered market interest in cluster homes, townhouses and new urbanism in general that the privacy-community pendulum is swinging back over to the community side. Plus, look at the marketplace. About 75 percent of all households don't have school-age children (no need for a yard), the Baby Boomers are retiring (no need for taking on home maintenance), and the population in general is getting older (need higher density, mixed-use, walkable areas where driving isn't required for everything).

 

Some people need space, and obviously that applies to you. But don't project your preferences on others, including me. You're doing both of us a disservice.